Certainly, there are illusions around traditional martial arts , which is highlighted by this Taichi guy's agreement to such fight in the first place. However, the Chinese reaction is not simply a shock reaction (as the title "rattle" implies), but a deep-rooted cultural reaction. Chinese culture is about longterm wellness, which, in a superficial way, is about face/elegance. It is much more important in Chinese culture to gain respect or to save face, which is of long term value (often beyond one's lifetime). Winning a fight by keep pounding a guy on a ground with no obvious defense is the opposite of elegance (elegance is equivalent to civilization in the culture), therefore, Chinese people would feel definitely not right and the reaction is simply to emphasize their value system: winning with no elegance is not winning at all. In fact, it is worse than losing, highlighted in the following events.
In another word, if the Taichi guy beat the MMA guy by in the end hitting the defenseless repeatedly, the Chinese reaction will probably be the same. While the MMA style does emphasize compounding the weakness, it is probably one of the reasons that it is never popular in China.
So would Mr. Xu have received the same negative public feedback if he had avoided the ground and pound, and won without perceived brutality?
I'm having difficulty seeing how this fight could have happened without either some form of KO/TKO, which I assume would have generated the same outrage, or degenerating into a farcical slapfest, which would have lost Xu face anyway.
Am I wrong? Or would Xu have killed a sacred cow no matter how he won? Because let's face it, it was clearly Xu's fight to lose. Xu should just come to America then, we have different sacred cows here.
If you think the Chinese are so sensitive that one youtube fight has suddenly hurt their pride, then you're a fool.
It's about money. The movie industry, the tourism industry, the martial arts training industry.. they'd all be heavily affected if Chinese martial arts were suddenly shown to be just a gimmick, especially if the person proving a point was in-fact Chinese.
It's about power and respect, which in China (and everywhere else) translates to one's ability to make money. "Don't rock the boat". When so much seniority has been earned by so many people, naturally they'll try to maintain their place.
What I don't get is how Chinese people don't already know this. I know nothing about fighting at all but from the article and the comments on the NYTimes site it seems it's common knowledge in the west that MMA fighters always win against other styles, it's practically scientific fact. Does the government censor information about martial arts too, or what's going on here? How can so many Chinese people be ignorant of the basic facts of fighting that seeing a fight of the kind that has been happening for decades causes some scandal?
That's the thing we should be discussing here. Not martial arts, but how such an asymmetry in information came about.
It shouldn't be a surprise after the Gracie Challenge showed most of the arts couldn't deliver against well-trained, well-rounded fighters that systematically exploit their weaknesses. My favorite example on someone from a kung fu background is the video below since it shows how helpless they are without ground training. Also, Rorion's excellent narration.
Edit to add: "At this point, Royce could apply the choke but he elected not to. There's many variables in groundfighting..." Nah, Royce is just an asshole who was putting another asshole in his place with humiliation. He had a God Complex when I met him that didn't fit his fight record. ;)
There are quite a small number of old martial art that's pretty decent still.
Gracie is just BJJ which is just an offshoot of Judo anyway with more emphasis on ground. So I'm not sure if it really counts as MMA would he just uses his school of Martial Art.
You meet Royce? Cool! Sorry to hear he's an asshole. I admit there's some vestigial hero worship when I hear his name.
Not surprised at all to learn he's got a God complex though.
I would have loved to see him matched up against some of the new blood, like Wonder Boy. Might have helped with his God complex. That's in fantasy territory now, I guess, like imaginary Bruce Lee matchups.
Do you really think its more the lack of groundfighting in kung fu that makes them helpless? Or their "gentler" training style? I've fought some hapkido guys back before groundfighting got big who had no problem with takedown defense. You'd get rocked with a back kick or a knee to the head unless you nailed the takedown.
>Tai chi, while a martial art, is viewed by many today as a spiritual breathing and balance exercise enjoyed by people of all ages, usually performed in slow motion in a quiet park instead of a fight ring.
Tai chi is a martial art in the same way yoga is a martial art. I'm kind of surprised this gets more than a shrug out of Chinese people. I would be surprised if a practitioner of one of the more practical Kung Fu styles could beat a good MMA fighter, but it would have been a lot closer.
Traditional martial arts can be quite effective if practiced in an effective manner. I've been to traditional schools where the pinnacle of training involved fighting each other bare knuckle.
As amusing as it would be to see a tai chi practitioner systematically progressing to bare knuckle tai chi sparring, perhaps their art could be more effective if it were trained more aggressively.
The belief in chi/qi power is deeply rooted in Chinese martial arts. Something that has no scientific basis.
The point here is not which fighting style is better, but that the tai chi master does not have any mystical or superhuman chi power he can draw upon to defeat his opponent. This is "the fraud" Xu Xiaodong wished to expose.
Pride cometh before the fall - Chinese people. If it is untested it doesn't work - martial arts. It's hard for someone to recognize a falsehood if his livelihood depends on it - martial arts schools.
Money attracts talent. There is relatively little money in traditional martial arts. No money results in little talent.
That MMA fighter looks fit. That martial arts guy does not and looks totally unskilled backing up. You have no power in your body and legs backing up like.
Those raised arms are completely worthless. Tensed muscles cannot react. They need to release tension first thus slowing down reaction time.
Lessons from my father who was in the army when soldiers liked to fight each other.
[+] [-] hzhou321|9 years ago|reply
In another word, if the Taichi guy beat the MMA guy by in the end hitting the defenseless repeatedly, the Chinese reaction will probably be the same. While the MMA style does emphasize compounding the weakness, it is probably one of the reasons that it is never popular in China.
[+] [-] basurihn|9 years ago|reply
I'm having difficulty seeing how this fight could have happened without either some form of KO/TKO, which I assume would have generated the same outrage, or degenerating into a farcical slapfest, which would have lost Xu face anyway.
Am I wrong? Or would Xu have killed a sacred cow no matter how he won? Because let's face it, it was clearly Xu's fight to lose. Xu should just come to America then, we have different sacred cows here.
[+] [-] horsecaptin|9 years ago|reply
It's about money. The movie industry, the tourism industry, the martial arts training industry.. they'd all be heavily affected if Chinese martial arts were suddenly shown to be just a gimmick, especially if the person proving a point was in-fact Chinese.
It's about power and respect, which in China (and everywhere else) translates to one's ability to make money. "Don't rock the boat". When so much seniority has been earned by so many people, naturally they'll try to maintain their place.
[+] [-] zigzigzag|8 years ago|reply
That's the thing we should be discussing here. Not martial arts, but how such an asymmetry in information came about.
[+] [-] nickpsecurity|9 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI
Edit to add: "At this point, Royce could apply the choke but he elected not to. There's many variables in groundfighting..." Nah, Royce is just an asshole who was putting another asshole in his place with humiliation. He had a God Complex when I met him that didn't fit his fight record. ;)
[+] [-] digitalzombie|9 years ago|reply
There are quite a small number of old martial art that's pretty decent still.
Gracie is just BJJ which is just an offshoot of Judo anyway with more emphasis on ground. So I'm not sure if it really counts as MMA would he just uses his school of Martial Art.
[+] [-] basurihn|9 years ago|reply
Not surprised at all to learn he's got a God complex though. I would have loved to see him matched up against some of the new blood, like Wonder Boy. Might have helped with his God complex. That's in fantasy territory now, I guess, like imaginary Bruce Lee matchups.
Do you really think its more the lack of groundfighting in kung fu that makes them helpless? Or their "gentler" training style? I've fought some hapkido guys back before groundfighting got big who had no problem with takedown defense. You'd get rocked with a back kick or a knee to the head unless you nailed the takedown.
[+] [-] gozur88|9 years ago|reply
Tai chi is a martial art in the same way yoga is a martial art. I'm kind of surprised this gets more than a shrug out of Chinese people. I would be surprised if a practitioner of one of the more practical Kung Fu styles could beat a good MMA fighter, but it would have been a lot closer.
[+] [-] basurihn|9 years ago|reply
As amusing as it would be to see a tai chi practitioner systematically progressing to bare knuckle tai chi sparring, perhaps their art could be more effective if it were trained more aggressively.
[+] [-] philmander|8 years ago|reply
The point here is not which fighting style is better, but that the tai chi master does not have any mystical or superhuman chi power he can draw upon to defeat his opponent. This is "the fraud" Xu Xiaodong wished to expose.
[+] [-] babesh|9 years ago|reply
Money attracts talent. There is relatively little money in traditional martial arts. No money results in little talent.
That MMA fighter looks fit. That martial arts guy does not and looks totally unskilled backing up. You have no power in your body and legs backing up like.
Those raised arms are completely worthless. Tensed muscles cannot react. They need to release tension first thus slowing down reaction time.
Lessons from my father who was in the army when soldiers liked to fight each other.
[+] [-] DerekL|9 years ago|reply