I remember when I entered the work force back in 1978 right out of college and went to work for Bell Labs. We were required to wear a suit, ties and white shirt. You were not allowed to hang your jacket over your chair; it had to be hung in the closet. You could smoke at your desk, I am not a smoker but many others took advantage of that. You could smoke in conference rooms during meetings and in elevators and many did so (See Mad Men).
It has been very interesting watching the norms shift over the last almost 40 years. Women and minorities filling the ranks, casual attire, smoking prohibitions (all very good things in my view).
One, funny interesting side story, if you will indulge this old timer. When I was in high school, my father was a budding attorney and of course had to wear a suit, tie and white shirt. My mother was a struggling artist. My father wanted her to wash and iron his shirts to save money and only have to pay for the dry cleaning of the shirts. My mother refused (an early feminist perhaps). They had a huge fight over it. In the end, my Mother relented and agreed to endure the task. However, in classic passive aggressive style, she "accidentally" got a red sock in the wash with the shirts turning them a slight shade of pink. Of course that made them, for that time, unusable ! So he had to toss them. After that he simply had them laundered. Ever since then our family calls this ruse "red-socking-it", which basically means intentionally fucking up to get out of doing something you don't want to do. I think we can all think of times when someone at work "red-socked-it".
>I think we can all think of times when someone at work "red-socked-it".
When I worked at Best Buy years ago, they started making us wear earpieces. I hated trying to do my job with constant interruptions in my ear, but instead of telling management I hated it, I pretended to love it.
I started talking over the radio constantly, and I'd end every phrase by making a white-noise sound and saying over. Eventually the managers took my radio away, and they thought it was a punishment.
An old engineer friend of mine once told me a story about when he worked for a large, national electronics design and manufacturing firm (probably GEC, Marconi or suchlike) - that would have been sometime in the 1960-70s...
Apparently, the R&D lab was full of long-haired, cheesecloth-shirt-wearing, sandaled, 'hippy' types. One day the Managing Director walked in, called everyone together and announced in a stern voice that there was going to be a very important visitor on the premises the next day and so everyone needed to smarten themselves up because they looked very shabby and unprofessional.
The next day, the MD walked in to the lab with his visitor...to find that all the engineers in full wedding suits with top-hats, casually soldering, probing, pouring over circuit schematics etc. just like a 'normal' day..!
I remember when I entered the work force back in 1978 right out of college and went to work for Bell Labs. We were required to wear a suit, ties and white shirt. You were not allowed to hang your jacket over your chair; it had to be hung in the closet. You could smoke at your desk, I am not a smoker but many others took advantage of that. You could smoke in conference rooms during meetings and in elevators and many did so (See Mad Men).
Makes an interesting counterpoint to the usual nostalgia about Bell Labs. I'd have guessed the smoking, but probably not that the dress was quite so formal.
An acquaintance worked for IBM in sales when he was just out of the Navy--I'd guess about 1965. He said that one day somebody came into the office in a suit, but with a shirt that was blue rather than white. This made everyone uncomfortable.
I am surprised I would have expected a lab environment to be jeans and lab coats. My first job was at a RND place in 79 so similar time and it was all jeans t shirts labcoats and steel toe caped boots / wellies (for working out in the lab space)
A couple years ago I was asked to dress up for the company Christmas party that was to occur later that day. On my way home to get dressed, I called up a local costume store and rented a Santa Claus costume. Showed up dressed like Santa Claus. Everyone loved it though. Told my boss that he should have chosen his words better.
Back when I was going to college one day the American Studies professor asked the class if anyone knew the word "sabotage". I was shocked, it is such a common word I thought there would be an answer right away. Since nobody felt like giving a definition, I did. "Yes professor, that is when you throw your wooden shoe into the mill-works". Silence. Everyone looks at me. The professor responds: "Yes, He is correct..."
A former boss had a gig with the LDS (Mormon) Church. First day he shows up in a suit and tie - but his shirt wasn't white. His boss pulled him aside and said, "I respect your courage, but not your wisdom."
Yeah, my boss wasn't happy staying in that environment (even though he was LDS).
> Ever since then our family calls this ruse "red-socking-it", which basically means intentionally fucking up to get out of doing something you don't want to do.
My kids try this shit all the time - either fucking it up, or just doing the job so half-assed that it needs to be redone. Whenever I catch this I treat it as a "teaching moment". I make them redo it a few times until they do it perfectly. Seems to help, but I hate how much time it takes almost as much as they do.
I was recently reading the autobiography of the CEO and one of the founders of Sony, Akio Morita. Sony Japan has been famous for having uniforms, like many other Japanese companies (which Steve Jobs really liked and wanted to emulate, except the idea was shot down early on. He did apply the idea to himself though, which is where his famous look comes from).
Many people would ascribe this as Sony being a typical, paternalistic Asian company - however, the reality is a bit more subtle. Keep in mind that Sony was started right after World War 2, in a Tokyo ravaged by years of bombing:
"When we started the company, clothing was scarce and expensive on the black market. People came to work in an odd assortment of gear; returning soldiers wore bits of their uniform or old-fashioned suits that had been saved for many years. If a person was fortunate enough to have a good suit, he didn't want to wear it to the office where he might risk burning a hole in it with acid or soiling it. Some of our employees just didn't have the money to invest in a work jacket. So with company money we bought a jacket for everyone to wear in the office.
Pretty soon these jackets became a symbol of our company family. As the company prospered, we could have done away with the jackets - we used to have a summer jacket and a winter one - because we were all being paid and could afford our own, but everybody seemed to like the idea, and so we just decided to continue to provide them. In the beginning, we executives had a different colored name tag from the others, but we eventually adopted the same kind worn by everyone else.
Today these jackets and tags are being used everywhere, even where class distinctions made people hesitant to wear them at first. Many of us liked our blue jackets, and I still wear mine occasionally."
Does anyone know where I can find a picture of these uniforms? Google image search happily returns a picture of Kim Jong Il and steve jobs, but no actual images of the damn uniform.
You'd think "sony company uniform" would be pretty easy for a search engine to search for.
Taiwan, a former Japanese colony, has a few companies which follow Japanese corporate traditions.
A friend worked for EVA Air in the back office, and besides having to wear a uniform similar to that of flight or gate staff, she said every morning at 9 am people would have to stand at their desks and do calisthenics that were broadcast over a loudspeaker. She said this was something the founder had picked up from visiting or interacting with Japanese companies in the 60s and 70s.
At one company I worked at, a television network, they issued male staff with blue blazers but we never had to wear them during the course of the business day. I think the idea was we could throw them on in case some big shot came to visit.
As a programmer, it's tempting to think that if we were still operating under 1950's social norms, I'd be the guy wearing a suit, but realistically I'd probably be the guy wearing coveralls with my name stitched on the front.
Maybe part of the problem with dress codes is that we (or most of us) aren't the self-employed white-collar professionals who have much to gain by looking successful to their customers. We're actually the blue-collar assembly-line factory workers. No one outside our immediate circle of co-workers has any reason to know or care what we look like.
Friend of mine just got a new tech job with one of those boring old Fortune 100 companies. Wore a suit to the interview; the interviewer told him to dress it down for the job.
So he wore slacks, a belt and a button up shirt on the first day; people seemed really nervous around him, like he was there to audit them.
So he meets the people he's going to work with: his "boss" is in a stained t-shirt, shorts, no shoes, super casual. I mean like 20 years ago he wouldn't have been able to buy a soda in a beach-town convenience store. Looks at my friend like he's from Mars.
A few weeks in and my friend still over-dresses. I mean, his shirt has a COLLAR for christsakes. It looks like it has been IRONED for the love-of-god. We'll see how long he lasts. Maybe when he gets more comfortable he'll start wearing ripped jeans and a pink floyd t-shirt. We'll see.
When I interviewed for my 2nd out of college job (circa 2000), I happened to interview on a day where the folks I was interviewing with had a conference, so they were dressed up. My start date was delayed for some bureaucratic reason.
Not knowing what the dress code was, I showed up my first day in a suit, and headed up to the office, which had been moved the week prior. I'm wandering around looking for my boss, when the Commissioner's secretary (this is a .gov gig) spots me, and thinks I'm a salesman as they had an issue with salespeople crashing the place. Nobody can find my boss, and five minutes later, two policeman show up and escort me out of the building. Thankfully my boss was a smoker, and rescued me as the cops were kicking me out! :)
The particular division I was in had a pretty eclectic collection of dressers. The bigshots wore suits or sportsjackets, and most people did the business casual thing. Then there were the... others. One dude did leather pants and a massive cowboy hat, there was a male and female tracksuit contingent, and a few people wearing sweatpants of all things.
Interesting. I find stereotypical business casual (khakis or maybe jeans these days and a button down shirt/polo shirt) to still be pretty much the norm even at a lot of tech companies, at least on the East Coast. That's pretty much what I wear. It's comfortable and it works even if I have to drop into a customer or analyst meeting.
Honestly, I find dressing down from that involves more thinking about what I will/may have to do in the course of the day. Khakis and a collared shirt let me do pretty much anything that may come up without thinking about it.
That reminds me when I interviewed at AKQA I went suited and booted I was interviewed by a guy in a t shirt that was so raged and dirty that I wouldn't have worn it to do the gardening in.
I got a hint that I might have overdressed when on the way to the Interview a passer-by asked me the way to the ivy ( a very exclusive restaurant)
> So he meets the people he's going to work with: his "boss" is in a stained t-shirt, shorts, no shoes, super casual. I mean like 20 years ago he wouldn't have been able to buy a soda in a beach-town convenience store.
No wonder everyone's nervous around your friend. If he forms his opinions on whether or not his manager has authority based on his clothing that's going to be an inheriently uncomfortable experience. Why did you use scare quotes around boss? And would you do it if the guy had worn nicer clothing?
Does your friend feel that way?
If so, his new co-workers are right to be nervous. The fellow is seriously misaligned in understanding how his new workplace is structured. He can dress how he likes, but if he starts using clothing to measure respect in a modern workplace... that's a problem.
And here I am today, sat in the UK offices of a Fortune 100 company (one of the big finance houses) wearing scuffed boots, black jeans and my old Megadeth t-shirt...
I am on the scruffier end of the spectrum, to be sure, but not the worst.
This is sort of interesting. Typically trends in high fashion come from the counter culture. The counter culture rejects the mainstream and, either intentionally or unintentionally, their fashion pisses people off. The goal of high fashion is to evoke emotion and fear/anger tend to be easy emotions to get out of people (Imagine your mother reacting to goths in the mall).
It seems, from this example, that some future counter culture fashion could be rooted in traditional formal wear considering how uncomfortable it has made your friend's coworkers feel.
I feel like some stagnant big companies do a bit of a cargo-cult thing when it comes to being innovative. "Surely if we wear the stained hoodies, the ripped jeans, and the man-buns we too can churn out brilliant and innovative products! (Let's not worry about our working culture, budgetary priorities, or management styles or anything. The dress code is where the real magic is!)"
reading the last line with my AC/DC tshirt made me think a bit, and yes, I am a "boss" (well just lead, maybe doesn't count), but at least I have shoes.
That's actually awesome, what a ridiculously simple way to mess with people. Something about nerds makes them freeze up when they see a guy in a suit as if it gave one magical powers. People claim not to care about clothes or fashion, but if that were true they wouldn't care if he wore a suit.
Tyler Cowen (in his typical counter-narrative style) suggests casual culture may anti-dynamism, particularly of the class mobility type.
The argument (which is not fully formed, I think) is that signalling exists anyway. In a more formal envirnonment, you can signal seriousness or whatnot by dressing in a good suit to make a cerrtain impression. In a casual environment, you can't signal with your clothes but that means signals just become more subtle and nuanced.
I think Cowen is saying that casual culture means social signals are harder to fake. You might think "great! Meritocracy.*" But, merit is not a drop in replacement for formal social signals. Informal signals are. What actually replaces the suit, watch and shiny shoes is p speech, body language (or a google search revealing your prestigous keynote speech) that one is a member of a particular group. It's much harder for outsiders to tick the boxes and blend in.
>Zuckerberg explained: “I really want to clear my life to make it so that I have to make as few decisions as possible about anything except how to best serve [Facebook’s] community.”
Interesting enough Obama said the exact same thing about his suit choices.
“You’ll see I wear only gray or blue suits,” [Obama] said. “I’m trying to pare down decisions. I don’t want to make decisions about what I’m eating or wearing. Because I have too many other decisions to make.”(1)
So decision fatigue doesn't need to go hand in hand with super casual.
I find these sartorial/sumptuary rules fascinating. My kid (age 19) is a snappy dresser which I (working in the Valley since I was 18, 30-odd years ago) pretty much wear whatever my hand falls on first, typically T shirts and shorts.
He says it's a status thing: I have status (within the community I work with) and so can afford to not give a shit about my clothing. While service workers (not gardeners, but sales people, lawyers, doctors, janitors, finance people, waiters, etc) all have to wear a uniform of one sort or another.
I wonder if he's right because when I am in Japan or Europe I dress better and do dress up for dinner.
I heard an interesting explanation for SF's acceptance of a much wider norm of behavior: the claim was that it goes back to the gold rush: that crazy person might just have an ounce or two of gold in his or her pocket.
It's something I've noticed as well and something I feel myself starting to react against. I don't own any t-shirts anymore and now dress almost exclusively in business casual, whether I'm at work or not. I plan to get myself a suit tailored this year.
I think the stereo-typical image of the "IT guy" wearing a hoodie or printed t-shirts isn't a good one, and stops us being taken as seriously as we should be. I want to be respected as a professional, not ostracized for dressing like a slob.
>Unless you work in a creative industry and live in a big city (read: basically NYC), you probably can’t wear anything too fashionable or avant-garde to work. We’re not talking about Rick Owens, but even somewhat tame designers such as Robert Geller and Stephan Schneider. And if everyone is wearing shorts and t-shirts, the sharpest you can look is in chinos. New, open office spaces still have dress codes – they’re just softly coded as social norms, not hard written into rulebooks.
>Dressing now follows subtle, in-group views – those who understand them know how to navigate the corporate world; those who don’t pay a price.
I remember speaking with some IBM veterans who had been around long enough to see the transition from suits and ties to casualish wear. Some of them spoke wistfully of the old days, and the point they all brought up was that while the old rules may not have been all that comfortable, they were simple and clear.
I think people don't understand that today's business suit and shirt WERE considered smart casual back when people started wearing them.
This was retained in business for some time after fashion changed in general use.
It's not just that dress codes have changed, more that what constitutes smart casual changed.
I feel like the author of this article hasn't worked in silicon valley, because it doesn't touch at all
on what I feel is the cultural significance of casual attire: Wearing what you want says that your employer values you for your brain, not your willingness to conform. Formal dress runs counter to cultures that value lateral thinking, iconoclasm, and non-conformism; all the things that have made silicon valley successful.
A suit says "I am an interchangeable cog." Normal clothing says that you're an individual with identity and tastes.
(Plus it is hopelessly uncool to be/work for squares).
I enjoy wearing suits to work. Sadly, at some tech companies it is a bad idea nowadays. I wore a suit to work at Google and Facebook and regularly got called security on. I made sure to always keep my badge close.
I remember, everyday I'd get dressed for work. Business casual collar shirt or button down shirt. Dockers pants. Colors were pretty dull. Light blue. Red. Gray. Black. White. Black shoes. I'd have an assortment to choose from and that is all I'd ever wear.
Since having been moved into a cubicle, however, where I am visible less than half the time, only seen when I go get a free drink from the fridge, use the bathroom, or take a walk outside, I have been dressing much more casually.
Decent shirt, but probably less than business casual, sometimes as casual as a Pink Floyd or a shirt that I got at a concert. Jeans. Sneakers. Summer=shorts. A lot of times, I'll just find a nice casual shirt and wear it for 3 or 4 days if its fairly clean. Clothing is just the last thing on my mind when it comes to getting dressed in the morning. I know I have to do it in order to go out into the world, but I don't really care what it is.
Of course, my supervisor does warn us if corporate is coming to visit for the day, for which everyone tends to be even more dressed up than usual. But that is just the way our office is. I've worked around the United States.. it seems like the East Coast and Midwest are slightly more strict in wanting people to dress business casual, and be clean-shaven, while the West Coast and Mountain areas are more lenient, and doesn't even seem to mind a mustache or beard, though either should be somewhat groomed.
East Coast/Midwest: tattoos should be covered.
West Coast/Mountains: tattoos are okay as long as they are not offensive.
Just today, I walked into Walmart, and a guy who looked like the manager is loaded up to his neck in tattoos. I don't remember ever seeing that when I lived on the East coast.
I work for a startup in Silicon Valley (hiring devs btw). I work from home most days because the drive from Los Gatos to Menlo Park is a nightmare. Tee and jeans are the normal dress code or track suites if you are one of our Easten European coders. ;) I go to Asia a lot on business. I am sit in Tokyo right now, in a suite and tie. I have a closet full. Only place I have to wear them - NYC, London and Tokyo. Oh well. Bespoke of course ;)
The subway sucks in a suite in the summer in Tokyo. Also they have a mandate to reduce energy hardcore after the earthquake so the AC is set at 28C the offices.
I work for a company with a strict and specific dress code - ties and slacks for men, leather shoes, etc. I think there is a huge opportunity cost to this dress code, and we lose a lot of potential good talent.
I was asked when interviewing (in a very serious tone) whether I could handle the dress code. It seemed obvious that they were aware it was a sticking point in recruiting.
One perspective in the article was about productivity and some belief that professional business attire had fewer distractions, so in theory helped productivity.
After working 20 years in a large corporate environment where you could and I did accidentally literally brush shoulders in the hallway with a Fortune 500 executive this is utter nonsense. There are so many opportunities in a large company to improve productivity that people's attire would be near the bottom of that list.
I like working more in a startup culture where there is less ceremonial BS and more focus on delivering value.
I think a big factor with Americans dressing so casually is that how you dress is no longer a representation of your status in society.
[+] [-] zw123456|8 years ago|reply
It has been very interesting watching the norms shift over the last almost 40 years. Women and minorities filling the ranks, casual attire, smoking prohibitions (all very good things in my view).
One, funny interesting side story, if you will indulge this old timer. When I was in high school, my father was a budding attorney and of course had to wear a suit, tie and white shirt. My mother was a struggling artist. My father wanted her to wash and iron his shirts to save money and only have to pay for the dry cleaning of the shirts. My mother refused (an early feminist perhaps). They had a huge fight over it. In the end, my Mother relented and agreed to endure the task. However, in classic passive aggressive style, she "accidentally" got a red sock in the wash with the shirts turning them a slight shade of pink. Of course that made them, for that time, unusable ! So he had to toss them. After that he simply had them laundered. Ever since then our family calls this ruse "red-socking-it", which basically means intentionally fucking up to get out of doing something you don't want to do. I think we can all think of times when someone at work "red-socked-it".
[+] [-] sarchertech|8 years ago|reply
When I worked at Best Buy years ago, they started making us wear earpieces. I hated trying to do my job with constant interruptions in my ear, but instead of telling management I hated it, I pretended to love it.
I started talking over the radio constantly, and I'd end every phrase by making a white-noise sound and saying over. Eventually the managers took my radio away, and they thought it was a punishment.
[+] [-] linker3000|8 years ago|reply
Apparently, the R&D lab was full of long-haired, cheesecloth-shirt-wearing, sandaled, 'hippy' types. One day the Managing Director walked in, called everyone together and announced in a stern voice that there was going to be a very important visitor on the premises the next day and so everyone needed to smarten themselves up because they looked very shabby and unprofessional.
The next day, the MD walked in to the lab with his visitor...to find that all the engineers in full wedding suits with top-hats, casually soldering, probing, pouring over circuit schematics etc. just like a 'normal' day..!
I don't recall what happened next!
[+] [-] optimiz3|8 years ago|reply
http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2013/02/02
[+] [-] dasmoth|8 years ago|reply
Makes an interesting counterpoint to the usual nostalgia about Bell Labs. I'd have guessed the smoking, but probably not that the dress was quite so formal.
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[+] [-] AnimalMuppet|8 years ago|reply
A former boss had a gig with the LDS (Mormon) Church. First day he shows up in a suit and tie - but his shirt wasn't white. His boss pulled him aside and said, "I respect your courage, but not your wisdom."
Yeah, my boss wasn't happy staying in that environment (even though he was LDS).
[+] [-] jobu|8 years ago|reply
My kids try this shit all the time - either fucking it up, or just doing the job so half-assed that it needs to be redone. Whenever I catch this I treat it as a "teaching moment". I make them redo it a few times until they do it perfectly. Seems to help, but I hate how much time it takes almost as much as they do.
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[+] [-] GuiA|8 years ago|reply
I was recently reading the autobiography of the CEO and one of the founders of Sony, Akio Morita. Sony Japan has been famous for having uniforms, like many other Japanese companies (which Steve Jobs really liked and wanted to emulate, except the idea was shot down early on. He did apply the idea to himself though, which is where his famous look comes from).
Many people would ascribe this as Sony being a typical, paternalistic Asian company - however, the reality is a bit more subtle. Keep in mind that Sony was started right after World War 2, in a Tokyo ravaged by years of bombing:
"When we started the company, clothing was scarce and expensive on the black market. People came to work in an odd assortment of gear; returning soldiers wore bits of their uniform or old-fashioned suits that had been saved for many years. If a person was fortunate enough to have a good suit, he didn't want to wear it to the office where he might risk burning a hole in it with acid or soiling it. Some of our employees just didn't have the money to invest in a work jacket. So with company money we bought a jacket for everyone to wear in the office.
Pretty soon these jackets became a symbol of our company family. As the company prospered, we could have done away with the jackets - we used to have a summer jacket and a winter one - because we were all being paid and could afford our own, but everybody seemed to like the idea, and so we just decided to continue to provide them. In the beginning, we executives had a different colored name tag from the others, but we eventually adopted the same kind worn by everyone else.
Today these jackets and tags are being used everywhere, even where class distinctions made people hesitant to wear them at first. Many of us liked our blue jackets, and I still wear mine occasionally."
Akio Morita, Made in Japan
[+] [-] slededit|8 years ago|reply
You'd think "sony company uniform" would be pretty easy for a search engine to search for.
[+] [-] ilamont|8 years ago|reply
A friend worked for EVA Air in the back office, and besides having to wear a uniform similar to that of flight or gate staff, she said every morning at 9 am people would have to stand at their desks and do calisthenics that were broadcast over a loudspeaker. She said this was something the founder had picked up from visiting or interacting with Japanese companies in the 60s and 70s.
At one company I worked at, a television network, they issued male staff with blue blazers but we never had to wear them during the course of the business day. I think the idea was we could throw them on in case some big shot came to visit.
[+] [-] elihu|8 years ago|reply
Maybe part of the problem with dress codes is that we (or most of us) aren't the self-employed white-collar professionals who have much to gain by looking successful to their customers. We're actually the blue-collar assembly-line factory workers. No one outside our immediate circle of co-workers has any reason to know or care what we look like.
[+] [-] canadian_voter|8 years ago|reply
So he wore slacks, a belt and a button up shirt on the first day; people seemed really nervous around him, like he was there to audit them.
So he meets the people he's going to work with: his "boss" is in a stained t-shirt, shorts, no shoes, super casual. I mean like 20 years ago he wouldn't have been able to buy a soda in a beach-town convenience store. Looks at my friend like he's from Mars.
A few weeks in and my friend still over-dresses. I mean, his shirt has a COLLAR for christsakes. It looks like it has been IRONED for the love-of-god. We'll see how long he lasts. Maybe when he gets more comfortable he'll start wearing ripped jeans and a pink floyd t-shirt. We'll see.
[+] [-] Spooky23|8 years ago|reply
Not knowing what the dress code was, I showed up my first day in a suit, and headed up to the office, which had been moved the week prior. I'm wandering around looking for my boss, when the Commissioner's secretary (this is a .gov gig) spots me, and thinks I'm a salesman as they had an issue with salespeople crashing the place. Nobody can find my boss, and five minutes later, two policeman show up and escort me out of the building. Thankfully my boss was a smoker, and rescued me as the cops were kicking me out! :)
The particular division I was in had a pretty eclectic collection of dressers. The bigshots wore suits or sportsjackets, and most people did the business casual thing. Then there were the... others. One dude did leather pants and a massive cowboy hat, there was a male and female tracksuit contingent, and a few people wearing sweatpants of all things.
[+] [-] ghaff|8 years ago|reply
Honestly, I find dressing down from that involves more thinking about what I will/may have to do in the course of the day. Khakis and a collared shirt let me do pretty much anything that may come up without thinking about it.
[+] [-] walshemj|8 years ago|reply
I got a hint that I might have overdressed when on the way to the Interview a passer-by asked me the way to the ivy ( a very exclusive restaurant)
[+] [-] ciaranm|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] djcapelis|8 years ago|reply
No wonder everyone's nervous around your friend. If he forms his opinions on whether or not his manager has authority based on his clothing that's going to be an inheriently uncomfortable experience. Why did you use scare quotes around boss? And would you do it if the guy had worn nicer clothing?
Does your friend feel that way?
If so, his new co-workers are right to be nervous. The fellow is seriously misaligned in understanding how his new workplace is structured. He can dress how he likes, but if he starts using clothing to measure respect in a modern workplace... that's a problem.
[+] [-] Nursie|8 years ago|reply
And here I am today, sat in the UK offices of a Fortune 100 company (one of the big finance houses) wearing scuffed boots, black jeans and my old Megadeth t-shirt...
I am on the scruffier end of the spectrum, to be sure, but not the worst.
[+] [-] zebrafish|8 years ago|reply
It seems, from this example, that some future counter culture fashion could be rooted in traditional formal wear considering how uncomfortable it has made your friend's coworkers feel.
[+] [-] naravara|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] empath75|8 years ago|reply
And everyone is in their 40s.
[+] [-] genofon|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] draw_down|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aanm1988|8 years ago|reply
is his boss, whether he dresses like a slob or not.
[+] [-] dalbasal|8 years ago|reply
The argument (which is not fully formed, I think) is that signalling exists anyway. In a more formal envirnonment, you can signal seriousness or whatnot by dressing in a good suit to make a cerrtain impression. In a casual environment, you can't signal with your clothes but that means signals just become more subtle and nuanced.
I think Cowen is saying that casual culture means social signals are harder to fake. You might think "great! Meritocracy.*" But, merit is not a drop in replacement for formal social signals. Informal signals are. What actually replaces the suit, watch and shiny shoes is p speech, body language (or a google search revealing your prestigous keynote speech) that one is a member of a particular group. It's much harder for outsiders to tick the boxes and blend in.
Interesting thought.
[+] [-] creepydata|8 years ago|reply
Interesting enough Obama said the exact same thing about his suit choices.
“You’ll see I wear only gray or blue suits,” [Obama] said. “I’m trying to pare down decisions. I don’t want to make decisions about what I’m eating or wearing. Because I have too many other decisions to make.”(1)
So decision fatigue doesn't need to go hand in hand with super casual.
(1) http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2012/10/michael-lewis-profile...
[+] [-] gumby|8 years ago|reply
He says it's a status thing: I have status (within the community I work with) and so can afford to not give a shit about my clothing. While service workers (not gardeners, but sales people, lawyers, doctors, janitors, finance people, waiters, etc) all have to wear a uniform of one sort or another.
I wonder if he's right because when I am in Japan or Europe I dress better and do dress up for dinner.
I heard an interesting explanation for SF's acceptance of a much wider norm of behavior: the claim was that it goes back to the gold rush: that crazy person might just have an ounce or two of gold in his or her pocket.
[+] [-] Avshalom|8 years ago|reply
I mean shit Miami's winters are warmer than London's summers
[+] [-] lacampbell|8 years ago|reply
I think the stereo-typical image of the "IT guy" wearing a hoodie or printed t-shirts isn't a good one, and stops us being taken as seriously as we should be. I want to be respected as a professional, not ostracized for dressing like a slob.
[+] [-] OliverJones|8 years ago|reply
Q. 'ow do you know he's a king?
A. 'e isn't covered with s$$t.
Seriously, today's business world has customs and status symbols that are just as rigid as yesterday's. They're just different.
[+] [-] minikites|8 years ago|reply
http://putthison.com/post/144964888828/the-end-of-office-dre...
>Unless you work in a creative industry and live in a big city (read: basically NYC), you probably can’t wear anything too fashionable or avant-garde to work. We’re not talking about Rick Owens, but even somewhat tame designers such as Robert Geller and Stephan Schneider. And if everyone is wearing shorts and t-shirts, the sharpest you can look is in chinos. New, open office spaces still have dress codes – they’re just softly coded as social norms, not hard written into rulebooks.
>Dressing now follows subtle, in-group views – those who understand them know how to navigate the corporate world; those who don’t pay a price.
[+] [-] johan_larson|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jbb67|8 years ago|reply
It's not just that dress codes have changed, more that what constitutes smart casual changed.
[+] [-] tbabb|8 years ago|reply
A suit says "I am an interchangeable cog." Normal clothing says that you're an individual with identity and tastes.
(Plus it is hopelessly uncool to be/work for squares).
[+] [-] Norfair|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mattbgates|8 years ago|reply
Since having been moved into a cubicle, however, where I am visible less than half the time, only seen when I go get a free drink from the fridge, use the bathroom, or take a walk outside, I have been dressing much more casually.
Decent shirt, but probably less than business casual, sometimes as casual as a Pink Floyd or a shirt that I got at a concert. Jeans. Sneakers. Summer=shorts. A lot of times, I'll just find a nice casual shirt and wear it for 3 or 4 days if its fairly clean. Clothing is just the last thing on my mind when it comes to getting dressed in the morning. I know I have to do it in order to go out into the world, but I don't really care what it is.
Of course, my supervisor does warn us if corporate is coming to visit for the day, for which everyone tends to be even more dressed up than usual. But that is just the way our office is. I've worked around the United States.. it seems like the East Coast and Midwest are slightly more strict in wanting people to dress business casual, and be clean-shaven, while the West Coast and Mountain areas are more lenient, and doesn't even seem to mind a mustache or beard, though either should be somewhat groomed.
East Coast/Midwest: tattoos should be covered. West Coast/Mountains: tattoos are okay as long as they are not offensive.
Just today, I walked into Walmart, and a guy who looked like the manager is loaded up to his neck in tattoos. I don't remember ever seeing that when I lived on the East coast.
[+] [-] myrandomcomment|8 years ago|reply
The subway sucks in a suite in the summer in Tokyo. Also they have a mandate to reduce energy hardcore after the earthquake so the AC is set at 28C the offices.
[+] [-] _raoulcousins|8 years ago|reply
I was asked when interviewing (in a very serious tone) whether I could handle the dress code. It seemed obvious that they were aware it was a sticking point in recruiting.
[+] [-] matt_s|8 years ago|reply
After working 20 years in a large corporate environment where you could and I did accidentally literally brush shoulders in the hallway with a Fortune 500 executive this is utter nonsense. There are so many opportunities in a large company to improve productivity that people's attire would be near the bottom of that list.
I like working more in a startup culture where there is less ceremonial BS and more focus on delivering value.
I think a big factor with Americans dressing so casually is that how you dress is no longer a representation of your status in society.
[+] [-] kirpekar|8 years ago|reply
The suit is really dead in the workplace (in Silicon Valley)