All: many commenters in this thread have violated the HN guidelines very badly. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of which side of a debate they take. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.
That includes not making insinuations about astroturfing and shills, unless you have evidence. Somebody merely disagreeing with you does not count as evidence.
One of the big problems of Aadhar to me is the mandatory use. I understand the terrible problems of stolen benefits, and how the card could help.
But in a country as large, dispersed and disorganized as India, mandatory is a risk. Plenty of people will slip though the cracks and be unregistered. It works in a tiny country like Germany where it was built on top of other infrastructure (ID cards were introduced in the 1930s; other uses were introduced lated once they had become essentially ubiquitous).
In addition, the lesson of China is salutary: siblings (whose very existence violated the one child policy) were often not registered, and thus missed out on schooling and other benefits. The "hukou" system controlled who was allowed to work or travel -- and surely everyone can imagine a government trying to fight urban slums by prohibiting migration from the countryside (by denying benefits)?
All people criticising Aadhar for being insecure frankly don't have a real solution in place. Being an Indian citizen I know and have experienced benefit owing to Aadhar. I get subsidies from the government, one uniform identity that I can use to get important things.
Coming to the security part, which centralised biometric DB doesn't have risks. Social Security Number in the US is pretty similar. No one gets security right the first time and nothing is secure forever.
Mozilla being such a nice organisation with so many good initiatives. Why don't it come forward and dedicate some of its resources in helping out the Indian Government? Wouldn't that be better than just criticising without knowing any ground reality of how things operate in India?
The illogic in these arguments is astounding. Maybe I can simplify it for you with a few analogies.
>All people criticising Aadhar for being insecure frankly don't have a real solution in place.
Criticising something doesn't necessitate me to providing a solution. It's like saying all movie critics should be good actors.
>Being an Indian citizen I know and have experienced benefit owing to Aadhar. I get subsidies from the government, one uniform identity that I can use to get important things.
Sure aadhar might have some benefits for you. But the critique is raising many points which make it incredibly dangerous and harmful in the long run. It's like using steroids to gain muscle faster, which is very harmful in the long term.
>Coming to the security part, which centralised biometric DB doesn't have risks.
Yes and those systems do get criticised so it can be improved. Also, aadhar claims to be open source, open API, run by volunteers, none of which it is. It sells your data to private services. Were you going to address that point at all?
>Mozilla being such a nice organisation with so many good initiatives. Why don't it come forward and dedicate some of its resources in helping out the Indian Government?
Indian government has a lot of resources too. It's not exactly poor. It could do a good job if it wanted to. That's not what this criticism is about.
>Wouldn't that be better than just criticising without knowing any ground reality of how things operate in India?
How do you know the author doesn't know the ground reality of things in India?
Look, criticism of a system or policy serves to ignite debate on how best we can make improvements and move forward. Rather than being snarky and getting all defensive and making silly illogical arguments, how about you contribute to the discussion by addressing the points raised in the article?
Who has power to abuse in unique identification system (aadhaar) - individual or state? State.
Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low.
(Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state knowing their entire web activity - how is not dystopian?
Going by a similar analogy - Should a US citizen use SSN to get a home-worker-robot from a private company like (Google,SpaceX) to help with all daily chores ? BIG NO
India has also been known for its infamous caste society (read prejudice) for few millenia - will unique identification help eradicate or increase the problem further ? can anybody explain which applies here and how ?
Although I am not against having an unique ID for citizens in a country. Such systems will become easy tools for few powerful. We so often get rants in HN about facebook(and others) abusing privacy (listening to audio, tracking most of our web browsing).
How is with aadhar and facts above help prevent a state or private-company or mix-of-both-them not become big brother ?
> (Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state knowing their entire web activity - how is not dystopian?
Aadhaar has nothing to do with you web activity. It's used as KYC - Know your Customer - for getting the JIO connection. It's optional, and as an alternative you can submit a xerox of any ID documents for your KYC. Most european countries require an ID document to get a mobile connection as well - Italy for example.
> Going by a similar analogy - Should a US citizen use SSN to get a home-woker-robot from a private company like (Google,SpaceX) to help with all daily chores ? BIG NO
More apt analogy would be that should a US citizen use SSN to to get a bank account at Citibank? BIG YES
> India has also been known for its infamous caste society (read prejudice) for few millenia - will unique identification help eradicate or increase the problem further ? can anybody explain which applies here and how ?
That has nothing to do with Aadhaar so I would ignore it.
> Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low.
It's also one of the freest countries in Asia according to Freedom House, and has robust institutions. It's the world's biggest democracy for 70 years now - during which western countries like Spain and Portugal were rules by dictators.
Please keep you condescending attitude to yourself. Indias are well informed to make an informed choice in this matter, and they have.
EDIT IN RESPONSE TO YOUR EDIT:
> How is with aadhar and facts above help prevent a state or private-company or mix-of-both-them not become big brother ?
Because Mister it's only used for KYC. Aadhaar system only stores a few attributes - Name/DOB/gender/address-if-available. That's data every goverment in this world keeps of its citizens. Do you understand now how you and Mozilla are fear mongering?
One thing I find frustrating in these arguments about Aadhaar is that the people defending it seem to align themselves by political affiliation.
People have to remember that even if the present government has good intentions and the PM is doodh ka dhulla (translation: incorruptible), Governments do not last but these programs will and if there is a way to exploit something at this scale, you better bet it some government (if not today's) will.
Aadhaar is one of those programs which is a solution looking for a problem, at huge cost of privacy, security and government surveillance. See https://rethinkaadhaar.in/myths/
Agreed but even most of the very literate ones does not understand the implication. Everyone is so gung-ho about having a single identity tied back to bio-metric data that highlighting the privacy concerns and historical misuse have no effect.
I am in the wait and watch camp. So far aadhar has shown promise and benefits. I am also in the "make it compulsory for income tax" group. For privacy, they will get their act together I hope (plug leakages if any). If they don't, it would be foolish for them to think that we won't come after them. I have faith in the current generation. The activation energy maybe high but boy do they protest when they do :)
> I am also in the "make it compulsory for income tax" group.
I don't get this ! What exactly is this linkage solving ? Additionally everyone who advocates this disregards the fact that there are Non-resident Indians who are required to pay taxes but they are not entitled to an Aadhaar card and resident non-Indians who also need to pay taxes who are not required to get an Aadhaar card.
Additionally, how exactly is the deduplication of the PAN database happening ? (ie: who is doing this and what information do they have access to ? eg: is it a private entity who would also benefit from knowing tax income slabs for analytics ?? ...do you really want your service providers insurance/health care/ISP/grocery provider to know the income tax slab you fit in ?)
These comments demonstrate how patriotism can affect ones rational and objective thinking.
There are understandably benefits and convenience, however the articles focus is not that. It highlights the inherent threats to citizens individual freedoms that has somehow been missed by commentators.
It sounds and looks really bad, but, India currently is so desperate to ridicule corruption that it's going to any lengths possible, which includes invading people's privacy. Now, I don't know if that's the right thing to do.
I recently made a trip to India; just a week earlier me and a few friends were talking about driver less cars, automation, AI etc.(you know the usual SV talking points) When I landed there all this futuristic talk flew out of my head; it is a very different world out there.
I am reminded of this feeling, because this author sits in his/her nice comfy office in Mountain View mouthing off on something with no understanding of ground realities; to me this is absurd. When I say reality, I mean actually living there. Taj Mahal selfies and elephant rides are not counted :)
Does anyone care about privacy in India as much as they do in the US? I seriously doubt it. Let's be real, most of us (Indians in the US) did not even know what privacy meant and we don't really care about it. If we did, we wouldn't be posting on FB, Twitter, Instagram etc. or signing up for a time share presentation just to get a 3 day hotel stay ;)
Its unsurprising that there can be no civil conversation on this topic on HN.
The tech sphere in India is divided into straight up optimizers, for whom things like privacy are an impediment to the progress of the nation. Said progress will make everyone's lives better, so it must progress.
These are the majority of coders that seem to be in the Indian sphere.
In sharp contrast, are the people currently fighting Aadhar in the Supreme court, who believe that privacy is the fundament of a nation in the first place. That without privacy you cannot have a democracy.
And this is just online, what actually happens between the closed doors of power is utterly bereft of what normal American HN crowd would consider civil liberties and human rights.
For those who actually control the system, losses and inaccuracy in aadhar are the same as errors in banking transactions. As long as theres a X sigma error rate, they don't care.
The entire article's argument of breach of privacy hinges on the claim that "the government of India is selling access to this database to private companies to use and combine with other datasets as they wish". Is there any substantial evidence of this of broad statement?
On the whole, pretty disappointed in this article from Mozilla.
> Is there any substantial evidence of this of broad statement?
Even if this hasn't happened yet, Are there any measures in place to keep this from happening?... Ever... Irrespective of the party in power?
The current government does not even want to acknowledge the possibility let alone describe the checks and measures put in place to avoid it from happening.
Aadhaar per se is quite harmless. It is pretty much what Estonia has been doing for the past 25 years with no ill effects. Quite in contrary. The question is privacy: we have a strong personal privacy law and are moving to make things more transparent all the time. People do care about this. Whether that's the case in India and to what extent, is up to Indians to say.
Ehat I find outrageous is that Cambridge Analytica can assemble a full profile of everybody in the country and it's just progress. But, god forbid, the government institutes an identifier to provide better services!
I'm all for aadhaar but I'd like to know who has access to my information and why did they get it. Also If possible I'd like to have a degree of control over it. Also I'd like to know how they secure it without using a bunch of PR terms.
These are all valid questions raised by that article but could have done a better job of explaining these problems and its implications.
You can ask aadhaar to dispatch notifications to you every time an authentiction happens.
Non govt agencies need your consent to get your data, if you don't want that just don't authenticate.
The article suggests that government is selling your data to private companies, which is such a big misrepresentation I wonder how Mozilla let its name be used for it. Do they not care for their reputation anymore?
Private companies can access your data only if you give them you consent by authenticating, and all they get is name/dob/gender/address-if-avialable. Which they would have anyways since you are their customer - mobile provider, bank etc.
There should be an overarching privacy law in India covering disclosure, insurance, etc; but that's a separate debate.
I don't really have a pony in this race, but logically, there is a difference. There are strict government laws in place to protect SSN information, such laws do not exist (apparently) in India regarding Aadhar. I don't think the argument is (mostly) about having a national ID, but about the lack of privacy of that information. Of course biometrics are bad in another way... If one needed to, you could change an ID number, you can't change your fingerprints
Let's first talk about the implementation: How many cards do we have in India specially for ID purposes? PAN for taxes, Raashan card for food grains and subsidies are the two names I can think of from the gamut of ids. Now a person needs Aadhar to literally do everything not including taxes and subsidies. Why is that? Isn't it enough that people kowtow to babus to get their other cards that we now need this? People praising direct benefits, was it not possible using raashan card? If your answer is well they could be fakes? Then wake up to the fact that there can be fake Aadhar cards too.
Second, lets talk about privacy. Fine there is a new card. Why do they need iris scans and finger prints? What is the need? That too in a government infrastructure which is surely not protecting it properly - http://www.livemint.com/Industry/73F92SKvUKxyngjfx7O0aJ/UIDA...
UIDAI said this:
“It is an isolated case of an employee working with a bank’s Business Correspondent company making an attempt to misuse his own biometrics which was detected by UIDAI internal security system and subsequently actions under the Aadhaar Act have been initiated,” according to a statement by UIDAI. (http://www.livemint.com/Politics/poeRx6xesHcUn6WpOJuJjN/Aadh...)
So it is a system which can be compromised by a motivated employee? What was the benefit again? Oh right stamping out corruption. Lets see how long that lasts.
I have refused to get Aadhar card because I don't want to share my biometric data. Many say what is wrong if you have or never going to do something wrong. I refer to you:
"Don’t confuse privacy with secrecy. I know what you do in the bathroom, but you still close the door. That’s because you want privacy, not secrecy." (https://medium.com/@FabioAEsteves/i-have-nothing-to-hide-why...)
I never wanted one because I am not opting for subsidies by choice. I earn enough and pay my taxes on time. But this forced choice of filing returns only using Aadhar has left me no choice.
And for the tinfoils out there. About some kind of conspiracy about the timing. Same could be said about Aadhar. What is the reason government is rejecting people's concern and supreme court directive of not making this mandatory? If some kind of foreign money is involved is the logic here, same could be said about Nandan Nilekani and his private company which started this all.
> Second, lets talk about privacy. Fine there is a new card. Why do they need iris scans and finger prints? What is the need? That too in a government infrastructure which is surely not protecting it properly - http://www.livemint.com/Industry/73F92SKvUKxyngjfx7O0aJ/UIDA....
For the same reason a bank requires your signature. To authenticate you. But in India because we still have some illiteracy signatures won't do. That's why it uses Biometrics. This didn't come to your mind? Does it not reflect poorly on you?
> So it is a system which can be compromised by a motivated employee? What was the benefit again? Oh right stamping out corruption. Lets see how long that lasts.
Mister, in the alternative system - signature/xerox - there's no audit trail. So anyone with a pen paper can forge you signature for example. With Aadhaar you at least get notification anytime authentication happens.
You seem to believe that those who have built Aadhaar, haven't thought through all this, while you can. Classic case of arm chair analyst I may assume from you arguments.
> People praising direct benefits, was it not possible using raashan card? If your answer is well they could be fakes? Then wake up to the fact that there can be fake Aadhar cards too.
How exactly would you fake BM to get an extra Aadhaar card? Make an fake eye in a lab, and get someone at enrollment center to register that?
The problem with ration cards was that not only fakes, but also that they were not well organized sructured at all. Have you every walked into a tehsildar's office?
Does anyone know what sort of data they collect on people to identify them? One reason I ask is that I wonder how such a system could be used to provide a "scientific" answer as to what caste a person belongs. That would obviously be a little worrisome if it were possible.
you eat pizza, li'l brother. just don't play with my toys, or do anything you like but i don't. sooner or later, i may decide to come by and kick you butt for fun, just don't run. remember, i'm always watching.
The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats.
Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector.
It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas.
It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontificates about stopping programs which solve problems _they don't have_. In 50 years, when a couple hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this conversation. Until then, shut up and and let India solve its own problems, and don't help people starve to death on account of your pompous moral litmus tests.
Having grown up with a national ID system I have a very hard time understanding the fear that people who grew up in the US have of a national ID system. However, I think that's because I grew up in a system with very strong privacy protection. Judging by this article India isn't only lacking privacy protection but the government is actively setting out to profit from not having such protection in place. I do think that's a very bad combination. However, you are of course right that this might also solve a number of problems India has many other countries don't and have a hard time relating to. It's a good thing to point out arising privacy concerns. Maybe India could have a national ID and make an effort to protect its citizens data rather than selling it?
Why should applying to a university require an Aadhar card? Getting a phone number? Getting gas to my house? They're shoving it down our throats.
I'm not entirely opposed to a UID system in India, but the way its been legislated and implemented in the last few years is absolutely disgusting.
India has absolutely 0 laws when it comes to privacy. Who is accountable when your data is leaked? Its literally upto the Aadhar committee whether they prosecute any leak of data.
>In 50 years, when a couple hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this conversation.
that's the game played; radical programs are raised and enforced in environments where it is nigh impossible to exist without them so that the corruption and moral negligence caused by such programs is swept under the rug for later generations 'to deal with' (the point being that later generations will be even less capable of reversing such programs as they will likely be even more reliant on them)
see: 'indentured servitude' for similar strategies.
> In 50 years, when a couple hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this conversation
And how having bio-metric ID solves problem of stolen subsidies? Every time a subsidy is stolen, aaddhar card will shoot an arrow into corrupt bureaucrats.
Our poor does not have access to Education and Law so they don't really know where to seek justice.
No its not. And those countries HAD those problems, and SOLVED them by going up the wealth ladder and building institutions.
THere is NO short cut to institutions and habit building.
You could build a million toilets, and people still wouldn't use it in India, because the older institutions and habits are stronger.
In the same way, just having a magical tech bullet is a favorite fantasy of people who haven't seen the cross of human institutions and actual human behavior.
Aadhar is already shown to not work on its promised targets, but has of course been expanded to do everything from book tickets, to get phones.
This I promise, once the ruling coalition changes, the pro-aadhar brigade will change their tune, once they worry that their neck is on the line.
Convenience and efficiency over your rights are terrible choices.
>The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats.
Before the Aadhar, when the Govt. started distributing PIN enabled smartcards to villagers (for food/cash transfers/employment), corrupt officials just started forcing villagers to give up their PIN and give up part of their balance if they wanted to see their food/cash/jobs.
A similar thing is going to happen / probably already happening with Aadhaar where local officials are going to force folks to give up part of their cash/jobs/rations if they want to see any of it, even after these people use their fingerprints/whatever to access whatever they are entitled to.
One of the reasons this biometric ID project was launched was purportedly to get rid of duplicate/fake IDs. (We already have a zillion ID systems - PAN, Driver's licence, Passports, Voter Id, Ration cards, NREGA Id, etc). However by 2013 itself, the govt. said it had detected 34,000 duplicate/fake Aadhaar IDs already. The real number is probably much higher and growing. There are several instances of biometric Aadhaar ID cards successfully registered for dogs as well!
Several Govt. organizations have already leaked (most accessible via a Google search) ~135 million Aadhar numbers along with names, addresses, photos [1]. The incompetent officials simply do not give a fuck about privacy/security.
The problem isn't ID/biometrics but lack of law enforcement which is going to be a problem regardless of Aadhaar. The current leadership vehemently opposed Aadhar due to privacy concerns before the elections, and immediately changed tune.
The danger with hogwash projects such as Aadhar (other than surveilance/loss of privacy/centralizing of power) is that they masquerade as solutions to problem which they never solve in the first place. The poor and hungry will still fucked in the end, but the new surveilance/censorship regime will be here to stay.
If serving the poor is the cause, why is a biometric ID needed (Adhaar is being made compulsory for:) for air travel, rail travel, getting a cellular connection, appearing for high school/university board exams! The Govt. now has a central kill switch to end a dissenting person's life simply by cancelling/blocking their ID! If not by malice then definitely by incompetence at the very least is going to get the lives of scores of people ruined. This project is a disaster and Mozilla is being polite in it's criticism.
If you consider India as 3rd world, then UP is 3rd world of India.
Here are the emotional benefits of Aadhar :
My parents don't have to bribe the local gas connections distribution agents.
Which means,
No need to stay in long queue from 8 In the morning, not to get your cooking cylinder, but to pay the bribe.
Since the government has advertised the Direct Benefit far too much,on TV, on radio, the middleman (distributer) can't cheat anymore.
This government markets everything and hence the poor and underprivileged has started questioning those the officials who don't do their jobs or provide the things exactly as advertised.
The middleman I am talking about are not government employees directly, but taking a distribution agency does involve bribe payment.
Those middleman paid bribe before 2014 government to get the agency, hoping that they will get the roi(i is bribe) within a few years.
2014 government single handedly has destroyed the corrupt ( who paid bribe) middleman in gas distribution
Most of the proganda against this government is supported people who felt entitled being part of a government job, (extra bribe )
because the Congress Government had created deep corruption webs for 60 years.
Notice a fun fact, Aadhar was introduced before 2013, before the election of 2014.
Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then.
All propaganda against Aadhar has been intensified only after the Aadhar number started saving money and stared to directly benefit people.
Coincidence?
Also, when the government decided to link Aadhar to the income tax returns, again these privacy activists have become active ?
Coincidence?
Remember, the old lady in a village in in 3rd world does not know about privacy, she is happy because now her 15 son does not need to stand and bribe the gas distribution agency and can study for a day extra.
Propaganda? Your 30 minute old account sounds like propaganda too.
We all know we could reduce crime by putting cameras in people's homes. But we don't do that, because there are risks to those kinds of invasive measures.
Aadhar is infrastructure that allows for centralized control of the population. Sometimes that control will be used for good things, like stamping out bribery. But that control can just as easily be used for evil too. And history has shown time and time again that's exactly what happens. I live in Canada, a country filled with refugees of authoritarian regimes. Among my friends I personally know lots of people who have fled those kinds of regimes; I know very few people who have fled countries because of bribery. The latter is annoying and unproductive, but the former is deadly.
That's why you're seeing so much opposition to Aadhar: because it's incredibly dangerous.
> Notice a fun fact, Aadhar was introduced before 2013, before the election of 2014. Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then.
I realize you're probably talking about people in India in this context, not people in the U.S., but I helped write part of this anti-Aadhar post back in 2012:
In support of your view that some critics have minimal knowledge of India, but also in opposition to your view that critics are motivated by considerations of Indian politics, I don't know which party was in power in India either before or after the 2014 election.
The track record of power-centralising anti-corruption projects is poor. This is because corruption is a sign of weak or ineffective institutions. Institutions which can't stop bribery probably can't prevent the next guy from e.g. zeroing out the bank accounts of vulnerable populations who voted against him or are to the detriment of a crony.
My folks also loved aadhar because of the cheap gas. Not because of bribes ( i guess its not an issue in Kerala) but because the government would give subsidy to those who had aadhar cards. So people sold their privacy to the govt, in exchange for cheap gas.
^ What happens when a centralised system with brittle architecture fails.
For all the nationalistic spiel, the fact remains that even if I have a passport that proves my identity, service providers (public and private, equally) are forced to ask (or just blindly ask for) my Aadhar number (which I don't have) . Ironic isn't it.
This is ridiculous fearmongering at a scale unseen before, given the enormous amount of corruption in Indian public distribution schemes, Aadhar has potential to be revolutionary in not only reducing corruption but also in providing poor people in India with assistance that they currently lack. Its easy to be a rich and employed in SF and pontificate about how other countries should run their government.
Mozilla is equivalent of those who criticized "Green revolution" because if fed starving people without causing "social revolution" etc. Aadhar has potential to cause "Digital revolution" and decades from now Mozilla will be on the wrong side of history.
Finally any Indian in USA simply has no right to criticize Aadhar since the US Visa process requires biometrics from all visitors.
> Finally any Indian in USA simply has no right to criticize Aadhar since the US Visa process requires biometrics from all visitors.
I find the "no right to criticize" theory confusing.
I understand if your point is that one might be hypocritical in endorsing one government's biometric collection but not another. But I (a non-Indian) have criticized both US-VISIT and Aadhar. I don't want the U.S. government to have a database of visitors' (or citizens') biometric data, nor do I want the Indian government to have a database of citizens' (or visitors') biometric data. There need not be any hypocrisy or logical contradiction in that.
Edit: it looks from elsewhere in the thread like your point is that Indians in the U.S., in particular, must have acquiesced in giving their biometric data to the US-VISIT program (otherwise they would not have been admitted). I think there is some force to that argument, but it also seems to suggest that people who accept any government's preconditions for doing anything that they did not absolutely have to do are then giving up their right to criticize the government for imposing that requirement. For example, some people in the U.S. have criticized local government for requiring a government cosmetology license in order to practice eyebrow threading. I assume that some of those critics have nonetheless signed up for such licenses. Did they completely surrender their right to criticize that requirement when they did so?
Such hyperbole weakens your argument. It's borderline zealous. I don't think you are a zealot and I think you have a valid argument, although I disagree with you. But expressing good thoughts in hyperbole is not effective here.
(Another example is the "no right to criticise" argument. Nobody cares who has a legal right to do disagree. This isn't a court of law. All we care about are good arguments. If someone is hypocritical, point that out. But people can be hypocritical while still having a good point.)
I don't understand why you're so pissed off rather than arguing logically.
>Finally any Indian in USA simply has no right to criticize Aadhar since the US Visa process requires biometrics from all visitors.
This simply doesn't hold any logic. If Aadhar is so good, then it should be able to stand up to any argument based on its merits regardless of where it's coming from. Can you actually present any points against the points being made by Mozilla?
Are you ok with your intimate personal details being sold to private companies? Maybe your son or daughter have a sickness and now all the private companies can know about it. Maybe years from now the collected data will be used to make decisions about whether to admit them into a school or hire them as professionals.
Please think calmly and logically rather than being sensational, egotistical, and personal. Nobody is trying to hurt your "Indian Pride".
I don't mind giving my biometric data to the US government because I have more legal protection in the US if my data is leaked. India has absolutely no laws to deal with my data being leaked and misused. Also, my biometric data in the US is only used at entry and exit - its not used for every single action I do while in the country. Aadhar tracks literally every action you take - which is scary.
Yes they scan the biometrics and I allow it. But do they make it the password for different services? Coz thats where its headed. Authentication and Authorisation are not the same thing.
Explain how Aadhar can reduce corruption? I still encounter government officials who take bribes in order to do the basic duty they were supposed to do. Neither Aadhar nor even demonetization has affected this in my experience.
I can understand how Aadhar reduces the corruption of common people (like in the case of tax evasion). And the government loves to reduce corruption of the common man. However it is very unwilling to lower its own corruption.
> Finally any Indian in USA simply has no right to criticize Aadhar since the US Visa process requires biometrics from all visitors.
This is BS because getting a visa is a conscious choice, Aadhar is forced upon India's residents. You're attacking people for having an opinion that's contrary to yours.
About your other points - no one is denying the benefits of having a strong unique ID system that lets people interface with government services; the problem is that Aadhar has no safeguards for privacy - which you would've focused on had you bothered to read the article.
Well, I agree the discussion is pretty awful. But this policy is a bit unclear to me (and otherwise unwritten, AFAICT):
> not making insinuations about astroturfing and shills, unless you have evidence
That's confusing: What evidence could users have? In my comment, one of the ones you objected to, I cited some strong patterns in the discussion. That's going to be the best evidence that users have access to unless it's very clumsily executed. The astroturfers aren't going to out themselves; looking like ordinary users is the fundamental requirement of 'astroturf'.
So if there's no possible sufficient evidence, do you really mean, 'don't bring it up at all?' I understand not accusing individuals without evidence, but nobody even should point out the general possibility, saying for example, "it seems like something odd is going on here; all these talking points look the same and are made provocatively ..."?
There is no doubt astroturf happens here, simply because there is overwhelming evidence that it is rampant on the Internet and HN isn't exempt. If users can't discuss the topic at all (probably not what you meant), that would shield the bad actors and be a recipe for it to happen unrestrained.
OMG Mozilla. No wonder open internet is in such a bad shape when we have you leading it.
1) Aadhaar is not fundamentally different than a National ID which every other country in this world has. India not only lacked it, out birth registrations certificates weren't reliable at all.
2) Yes they do collection Biometrics(BM). But BM are never shared with any other agency/company. And it's strictly codified in law. BM are only used for deduplication(1b+ population), and authentication.
3) For KYC(Know your Customer) or E-Payments BM based authentication is much more secure than what's being used currently - signatures, and self attested xerox which anyone can forge/photoshop.
4) You can also ask Aadhaar server to dispatch an SMS to your mobile number every time an authentication happens. Now compare that your signature/xerox which anyone can forge/photoshop and you would have no idea about it.
5) In this changing world who would you want to control identity? A private company like Apple which can block you or some developer anytime and there would be no recourse? Or a govt agency - backed by a law of Parliament - that you can drag to court.
6) Want to build a marketplace for house-maids? Or for farmers? Don't want it bogged down by scamsters which in the end depressing adaption?
7) For financial products like bank accounts, mutual funds etc Aadhaar brings down compliance cost. So for a MF while in the old system it wouldn't be viable to take an investment of less than 50k Rs because the compliance cost itself would be 1k Rs or something, now you can do it under 10 Rs.
Are we making a better world or not, in which the poor have access to Mutual funds, Insurance etc or Mozilla thinks it's not?
Please watch this https://youtu.be/LJCEyqcKN3Q?t=5m50s and tell me which other country in this world can match this. Getting a loan in under 8 minutes. Or opening a bank account in under 10 min.
This is a technological revolution - but not happening in Copenhagen or Zurich, but dusty villages of India.
I have had enough of these Aadhaar critics - and now Mozilla - who have colonised their minds with some western ideas, and are unable to see what's happening in India.
Bottom line, there's no better example of how technology can drastically change lives for the poor and the needy than Aadhaar.
Those who are unable to see it, are usually just biased because need clicks for their publications, or need to build their reputation as security analyst or something by bashing something. Look into this thread itself, and you'll find them linking to each other's twitter profile etc. Sickening really.
> Aadhaar is fundamentally different than a National ID which every other country in this world has.
Not the United States!
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card... seems to suggest national IDs are voluntary in 15 countries, nonexistent in 9, and mandatory in 82. One thing that seems possibly significant is that six of the non-mandatory ones include the entirety of the "Anglosphere".
That's right, each of the Anglosphere countries has no mandatory national ID. And although the culture and politics of those countries varies quite a bit, including with regard to privacy and civil liberties issues and beliefs about state power, I believe that each one includes a significant number of citizens who are quite proud that there's no mandatory ID, regarding it as a particular way in which their country is more free than others, and as something worth defending.
Edit: I don't care about karma on HN but if you're downvoting please explain yourself.
> The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need
> them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats.
Citation ? (not about the corruption happening, that has been well established, but about aadhaar allegedly solving this problem).
> Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification
> necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector.
There already are a pletora of identification methods in India, including the PAN, ration card, BPL Card, Voter ID etc. In the end the problems that keep it from being 'unique' are in the implementation at the grass roots. How is Aadhaar going to change this ? There already are a lot of reports of duplication of Aadhaar.
> It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas.
Reliable ? Oh really ? According to the goverment's own addmission :
> It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontificates about stopping
> programs which solve problems _they don't have_. In 50 years, when a couple
> hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because
> their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this
> conversation. Until then, shut up and and let India solve its own problems,
> and don't help people starve to death on account of your pompous moral
> litmus tests.
Firstly, the Indian goverment is not even interested in debating or engaing
people who have a different viewpoint than them, including the Superme Court of
India. So, tell me again, which is this India you speak about that is allegedly
soloving its problems ? I feel like Indians like me are lesser Indians than thos
that toe the Goverment line.
I often think about this when it comes to Indians reacting to critizims about
India:
Except from the book "Restart"[1]
> Then the denial, the one form of intellectual argument we have mastered.
> India has no problem; if it has a problem, it is nobody else’s business;
> everybody else also has this problem; everybody else has other problems, why
> don’t you talk about those instead; why are you saying this is a problem, it is
> a part of our 5000-year- old culture; we knew the answers to all problems in
> the Vedic era; even if we have this problem, it is not our fault; even if we
> have this problem, we cannot accept any of the solutions that have been shown
> to work elsewhere; even if we have this problem, it is much better than it was;
> perhaps we have this problem, but it is none of your business.
...and this book is not even about sociology or politics, it is about economics.
Is the Indian government now also doing astroturfing? Does anyone know about any serious research or reporting on it? Chinese and Russian operations are well-known and reported, but I haven't heard of Indian ones.
Seeing the same, generally weak talking points, angrily defending the Indian government, advocating nationalistic points of view, and repeated over and over - it all reminds me of threads critical of China and Russia.
> Is the Indian government now also doing astroturfing?
You can't make insinuations of astroturfing or shillage on HN without evidence. Haven't we discussed this with you before? Please don't comment like this again.
I'm not defending anything, it's just extremely hypocritical to accuse India's system of being dystopian while currently existing systems in "developed" nations are even worse.
I'll add that in a few hours I got 6 (or maybe more) down-votes on otherwise uncontroversial comments that didn't agree with the seeming Indian nationalist party line - often the comments didn't directly disagree, they just didn't advocate or drink the Kool-Aid.
Not a complaint, but it looks like the symptoms of what I asked about.
Aadhaar was supported by the previous government. This government continued it. Most of India is unwavered in their support, since they see the benefits of getting instant bank account or food subsidy. And not being forced to stand in a line for such simple stuff in 40C+ temperature and wasting your entire day.
There are more anti-aadhaar green accounts in this thread than pro-aadhaar. If your only argument is to bring thowaway statements like Nationalism/Russia etc into it, then it just reflects poorly on you.
> The short sightedness and naivety of this comment is disgusting.
This breaks the HN guideline against name-calling in arguments. Please edit that kind of thing, and bilious bits in general, out of your comments if you want to post here.
dang|8 years ago
That includes not making insinuations about astroturfing and shills, unless you have evidence. Somebody merely disagreeing with you does not count as evidence.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
gumby|8 years ago
But in a country as large, dispersed and disorganized as India, mandatory is a risk. Plenty of people will slip though the cracks and be unregistered. It works in a tiny country like Germany where it was built on top of other infrastructure (ID cards were introduced in the 1930s; other uses were introduced lated once they had become essentially ubiquitous).
In addition, the lesson of China is salutary: siblings (whose very existence violated the one child policy) were often not registered, and thus missed out on schooling and other benefits. The "hukou" system controlled who was allowed to work or travel -- and surely everyone can imagine a government trying to fight urban slums by prohibiting migration from the countryside (by denying benefits)?
abhishivsaxena|8 years ago
mundanevoice|8 years ago
Coming to the security part, which centralised biometric DB doesn't have risks. Social Security Number in the US is pretty similar. No one gets security right the first time and nothing is secure forever.
Mozilla being such a nice organisation with so many good initiatives. Why don't it come forward and dedicate some of its resources in helping out the Indian Government? Wouldn't that be better than just criticising without knowing any ground reality of how things operate in India?
it_learnses|8 years ago
>All people criticising Aadhar for being insecure frankly don't have a real solution in place.
Criticising something doesn't necessitate me to providing a solution. It's like saying all movie critics should be good actors.
>Being an Indian citizen I know and have experienced benefit owing to Aadhar. I get subsidies from the government, one uniform identity that I can use to get important things.
Sure aadhar might have some benefits for you. But the critique is raising many points which make it incredibly dangerous and harmful in the long run. It's like using steroids to gain muscle faster, which is very harmful in the long term.
>Coming to the security part, which centralised biometric DB doesn't have risks.
Yes and those systems do get criticised so it can be improved. Also, aadhar claims to be open source, open API, run by volunteers, none of which it is. It sells your data to private services. Were you going to address that point at all?
>Mozilla being such a nice organisation with so many good initiatives. Why don't it come forward and dedicate some of its resources in helping out the Indian Government?
Indian government has a lot of resources too. It's not exactly poor. It could do a good job if it wanted to. That's not what this criticism is about.
>Wouldn't that be better than just criticising without knowing any ground reality of how things operate in India?
How do you know the author doesn't know the ground reality of things in India?
Look, criticism of a system or policy serves to ignite debate on how best we can make improvements and move forward. Rather than being snarky and getting all defensive and making silly illogical arguments, how about you contribute to the discussion by addressing the points raised in the article?
adityab|8 years ago
- They didn't rely on fingerprints, as they are easy to fake, without a high degree of technical sophistication
- There would not be an API for commercial services
I just want the government to be able to provide its services smoothly. I don't want random startups leaking or selling everyone's data.
hackuser|8 years ago
There are no biometrics associated with Social Security. It's just an ID number.
_nedR|8 years ago
Yes the government is holding your benifits hostage in order to force you to register for aadhar. This is not an inherit advantage of aadhar.
samblr|8 years ago
Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low.
(Looking up in internet) Latest use of aadhar seems to be in mobile internet via Jio telecom - they've used aadhar as identification. How is this not dystopian ? with most of country relying on mobile internet alone and state knowing their entire web activity - how is not dystopian?
Going by a similar analogy - Should a US citizen use SSN to get a home-worker-robot from a private company like (Google,SpaceX) to help with all daily chores ? BIG NO
India has also been known for its infamous caste society (read prejudice) for few millenia - will unique identification help eradicate or increase the problem further ? can anybody explain which applies here and how ?
Although I am not against having an unique ID for citizens in a country. Such systems will become easy tools for few powerful. We so often get rants in HN about facebook(and others) abusing privacy (listening to audio, tracking most of our web browsing).
How is with aadhar and facts above help prevent a state or private-company or mix-of-both-them not become big brother ?
edit: removed a sentence which got repeated.
abhishivsaxena|8 years ago
Aadhaar has nothing to do with you web activity. It's used as KYC - Know your Customer - for getting the JIO connection. It's optional, and as an alternative you can submit a xerox of any ID documents for your KYC. Most european countries require an ID document to get a mobile connection as well - Italy for example.
> Going by a similar analogy - Should a US citizen use SSN to get a home-woker-robot from a private company like (Google,SpaceX) to help with all daily chores ? BIG NO
More apt analogy would be that should a US citizen use SSN to to get a bank account at Citibank? BIG YES
> India has also been known for its infamous caste society (read prejudice) for few millenia - will unique identification help eradicate or increase the problem further ? can anybody explain which applies here and how ?
That has nothing to do with Aadhaar so I would ignore it.
> Where does the state in questions stand in corruption ratings, human development index ? very low.
It's also one of the freest countries in Asia according to Freedom House, and has robust institutions. It's the world's biggest democracy for 70 years now - during which western countries like Spain and Portugal were rules by dictators.
Please keep you condescending attitude to yourself. Indias are well informed to make an informed choice in this matter, and they have.
EDIT IN RESPONSE TO YOUR EDIT:
> How is with aadhar and facts above help prevent a state or private-company or mix-of-both-them not become big brother ?
Because Mister it's only used for KYC. Aadhaar system only stores a few attributes - Name/DOB/gender/address-if-available. That's data every goverment in this world keeps of its citizens. Do you understand now how you and Mozilla are fear mongering?
devnonymous|8 years ago
People have to remember that even if the present government has good intentions and the PM is doodh ka dhulla (translation: incorruptible), Governments do not last but these programs will and if there is a way to exploit something at this scale, you better bet it some government (if not today's) will.
swaroop|8 years ago
drieddust|8 years ago
eklavya|8 years ago
devnonymous|8 years ago
I don't get this ! What exactly is this linkage solving ? Additionally everyone who advocates this disregards the fact that there are Non-resident Indians who are required to pay taxes but they are not entitled to an Aadhaar card and resident non-Indians who also need to pay taxes who are not required to get an Aadhaar card.
Additionally, how exactly is the deduplication of the PAN database happening ? (ie: who is doing this and what information do they have access to ? eg: is it a private entity who would also benefit from knowing tax income slabs for analytics ?? ...do you really want your service providers insurance/health care/ISP/grocery provider to know the income tax slab you fit in ?)
CommanderData|8 years ago
There are understandably benefits and convenience, however the articles focus is not that. It highlights the inherent threats to citizens individual freedoms that has somehow been missed by commentators.
shiven|8 years ago
abhishivsaxena|8 years ago
0xelectron|8 years ago
ashwinaj|8 years ago
I am reminded of this feeling, because this author sits in his/her nice comfy office in Mountain View mouthing off on something with no understanding of ground realities; to me this is absurd. When I say reality, I mean actually living there. Taj Mahal selfies and elephant rides are not counted :)
Does anyone care about privacy in India as much as they do in the US? I seriously doubt it. Let's be real, most of us (Indians in the US) did not even know what privacy meant and we don't really care about it. If we did, we wouldn't be posting on FB, Twitter, Instagram etc. or signing up for a time share presentation just to get a 3 day hotel stay ;)
intended|8 years ago
Yet, they try every day - to over come that with whatever tools and education in front of them.
MANY people in India, aside from the brigade yelling "efficiency and progress", do not value efficiency and progress.
So they do care, and will definitely care once they realize they were sold a bum dream.
intended|8 years ago
The tech sphere in India is divided into straight up optimizers, for whom things like privacy are an impediment to the progress of the nation. Said progress will make everyone's lives better, so it must progress.
These are the majority of coders that seem to be in the Indian sphere.
In sharp contrast, are the people currently fighting Aadhar in the Supreme court, who believe that privacy is the fundament of a nation in the first place. That without privacy you cannot have a democracy.
And this is just online, what actually happens between the closed doors of power is utterly bereft of what normal American HN crowd would consider civil liberties and human rights.
For those who actually control the system, losses and inaccuracy in aadhar are the same as errors in banking transactions. As long as theres a X sigma error rate, they don't care.
2pointsomone|8 years ago
On the whole, pretty disappointed in this article from Mozilla.
devnonymous|8 years ago
Even if this hasn't happened yet, Are there any measures in place to keep this from happening?... Ever... Irrespective of the party in power?
The current government does not even want to acknowledge the possibility let alone describe the checks and measures put in place to avoid it from happening.
akytt|8 years ago
Ehat I find outrageous is that Cambridge Analytica can assemble a full profile of everybody in the country and it's just progress. But, god forbid, the government institutes an identifier to provide better services!
_pythonlover_|8 years ago
These are all valid questions raised by that article but could have done a better job of explaining these problems and its implications.
abhishivsaxena|8 years ago
Non govt agencies need your consent to get your data, if you don't want that just don't authenticate.
The article suggests that government is selling your data to private companies, which is such a big misrepresentation I wonder how Mozilla let its name be used for it. Do they not care for their reputation anymore?
Private companies can access your data only if you give them you consent by authenticating, and all they get is name/dob/gender/address-if-avialable. Which they would have anyways since you are their customer - mobile provider, bank etc.
There should be an overarching privacy law in India covering disclosure, insurance, etc; but that's a separate debate.
mankash666|8 years ago
mystere|8 years ago
thisisit|8 years ago
Let's first talk about the implementation: How many cards do we have in India specially for ID purposes? PAN for taxes, Raashan card for food grains and subsidies are the two names I can think of from the gamut of ids. Now a person needs Aadhar to literally do everything not including taxes and subsidies. Why is that? Isn't it enough that people kowtow to babus to get their other cards that we now need this? People praising direct benefits, was it not possible using raashan card? If your answer is well they could be fakes? Then wake up to the fact that there can be fake Aadhar cards too.
Second, lets talk about privacy. Fine there is a new card. Why do they need iris scans and finger prints? What is the need? That too in a government infrastructure which is surely not protecting it properly - http://www.livemint.com/Industry/73F92SKvUKxyngjfx7O0aJ/UIDA...
UIDAI said this: “It is an isolated case of an employee working with a bank’s Business Correspondent company making an attempt to misuse his own biometrics which was detected by UIDAI internal security system and subsequently actions under the Aadhaar Act have been initiated,” according to a statement by UIDAI. (http://www.livemint.com/Politics/poeRx6xesHcUn6WpOJuJjN/Aadh...)
So it is a system which can be compromised by a motivated employee? What was the benefit again? Oh right stamping out corruption. Lets see how long that lasts.
I have refused to get Aadhar card because I don't want to share my biometric data. Many say what is wrong if you have or never going to do something wrong. I refer to you: "Don’t confuse privacy with secrecy. I know what you do in the bathroom, but you still close the door. That’s because you want privacy, not secrecy." (https://medium.com/@FabioAEsteves/i-have-nothing-to-hide-why...)
I never wanted one because I am not opting for subsidies by choice. I earn enough and pay my taxes on time. But this forced choice of filing returns only using Aadhar has left me no choice.
And for the tinfoils out there. About some kind of conspiracy about the timing. Same could be said about Aadhar. What is the reason government is rejecting people's concern and supreme court directive of not making this mandatory? If some kind of foreign money is involved is the logic here, same could be said about Nandan Nilekani and his private company which started this all.
intended|8 years ago
abhishivsaxena|8 years ago
For the same reason a bank requires your signature. To authenticate you. But in India because we still have some illiteracy signatures won't do. That's why it uses Biometrics. This didn't come to your mind? Does it not reflect poorly on you?
> So it is a system which can be compromised by a motivated employee? What was the benefit again? Oh right stamping out corruption. Lets see how long that lasts.
Mister, in the alternative system - signature/xerox - there's no audit trail. So anyone with a pen paper can forge you signature for example. With Aadhaar you at least get notification anytime authentication happens.
You seem to believe that those who have built Aadhaar, haven't thought through all this, while you can. Classic case of arm chair analyst I may assume from you arguments.
> People praising direct benefits, was it not possible using raashan card? If your answer is well they could be fakes? Then wake up to the fact that there can be fake Aadhar cards too.
How exactly would you fake BM to get an extra Aadhaar card? Make an fake eye in a lab, and get someone at enrollment center to register that?
The problem with ration cards was that not only fakes, but also that they were not well organized sructured at all. Have you every walked into a tehsildar's office?
jhgjklj|8 years ago
davesque|8 years ago
intended|8 years ago
On top of it this data is often found floating around in many unguarded excel files all over the web.
Its trivially easy to break people into caste buckets.
xeronkek|8 years ago
timwaagh|8 years ago
shiven|8 years ago
bpodgursky|8 years ago
The Indian ID drive has ensured that benefits make it to the people who need them without 80% of it being skimmed by corrupt bureaucrats.
Having a real identification gives very poor individuals the identification necessary to open bank accounts and interact with the financial sector.
It's the first really reliable census data for a lot of areas.
It's disgusting that Mozilla sits there and pontificates about stopping programs which solve problems _they don't have_. In 50 years, when a couple hundred million Indians aren't having trouble getting enough to eat because their government subsidies were stolen, then maybe it's worth having this conversation. Until then, shut up and and let India solve its own problems, and don't help people starve to death on account of your pompous moral litmus tests.
ajmurmann|8 years ago
ganduG|8 years ago
I'm not entirely opposed to a UID system in India, but the way its been legislated and implemented in the last few years is absolutely disgusting.
India has absolutely 0 laws when it comes to privacy. Who is accountable when your data is leaked? Its literally upto the Aadhar committee whether they prosecute any leak of data.
gkcgautam|8 years ago
serf|8 years ago
that's the game played; radical programs are raised and enforced in environments where it is nigh impossible to exist without them so that the corruption and moral negligence caused by such programs is swept under the rug for later generations 'to deal with' (the point being that later generations will be even less capable of reversing such programs as they will likely be even more reliant on them)
see: 'indentured servitude' for similar strategies.
drieddust|8 years ago
And how having bio-metric ID solves problem of stolen subsidies? Every time a subsidy is stolen, aaddhar card will shoot an arrow into corrupt bureaucrats.
Our poor does not have access to Education and Law so they don't really know where to seek justice.
intended|8 years ago
THere is NO short cut to institutions and habit building.
You could build a million toilets, and people still wouldn't use it in India, because the older institutions and habits are stronger.
In the same way, just having a magical tech bullet is a favorite fantasy of people who haven't seen the cross of human institutions and actual human behavior.
Aadhar is already shown to not work on its promised targets, but has of course been expanded to do everything from book tickets, to get phones.
This I promise, once the ruling coalition changes, the pro-aadhar brigade will change their tune, once they worry that their neck is on the line.
Convenience and efficiency over your rights are terrible choices.
flak48|8 years ago
Before the Aadhar, when the Govt. started distributing PIN enabled smartcards to villagers (for food/cash transfers/employment), corrupt officials just started forcing villagers to give up their PIN and give up part of their balance if they wanted to see their food/cash/jobs.
A similar thing is going to happen / probably already happening with Aadhaar where local officials are going to force folks to give up part of their cash/jobs/rations if they want to see any of it, even after these people use their fingerprints/whatever to access whatever they are entitled to.
One of the reasons this biometric ID project was launched was purportedly to get rid of duplicate/fake IDs. (We already have a zillion ID systems - PAN, Driver's licence, Passports, Voter Id, Ration cards, NREGA Id, etc). However by 2013 itself, the govt. said it had detected 34,000 duplicate/fake Aadhaar IDs already. The real number is probably much higher and growing. There are several instances of biometric Aadhaar ID cards successfully registered for dogs as well!
Several Govt. organizations have already leaked (most accessible via a Google search) ~135 million Aadhar numbers along with names, addresses, photos [1]. The incompetent officials simply do not give a fuck about privacy/security.
The problem isn't ID/biometrics but lack of law enforcement which is going to be a problem regardless of Aadhaar. The current leadership vehemently opposed Aadhar due to privacy concerns before the elections, and immediately changed tune.
The danger with hogwash projects such as Aadhar (other than surveilance/loss of privacy/centralizing of power) is that they masquerade as solutions to problem which they never solve in the first place. The poor and hungry will still fucked in the end, but the new surveilance/censorship regime will be here to stay.
If serving the poor is the cause, why is a biometric ID needed (Adhaar is being made compulsory for:) for air travel, rail travel, getting a cellular connection, appearing for high school/university board exams! The Govt. now has a central kill switch to end a dissenting person's life simply by cancelling/blocking their ID! If not by malice then definitely by incompetence at the very least is going to get the lives of scores of people ruined. This project is a disaster and Mozilla is being polite in it's criticism.
[1]http://www.livemint.com/Politics/oj7ky556p6vdljXpRw8gPP/135-...
realonedev|8 years ago
State called Uttar Pradesh.
If you consider India as 3rd world, then UP is 3rd world of India.
Here are the emotional benefits of Aadhar :
My parents don't have to bribe the local gas connections distribution agents.
Which means,
No need to stay in long queue from 8 In the morning, not to get your cooking cylinder, but to pay the bribe.
Since the government has advertised the Direct Benefit far too much,on TV, on radio, the middleman (distributer) can't cheat anymore.
This government markets everything and hence the poor and underprivileged has started questioning those the officials who don't do their jobs or provide the things exactly as advertised.
The middleman I am talking about are not government employees directly, but taking a distribution agency does involve bribe payment.
Those middleman paid bribe before 2014 government to get the agency, hoping that they will get the roi(i is bribe) within a few years.
2014 government single handedly has destroyed the corrupt ( who paid bribe) middleman in gas distribution
Most of the proganda against this government is supported people who felt entitled being part of a government job, (extra bribe ) because the Congress Government had created deep corruption webs for 60 years.
Notice a fun fact, Aadhar was introduced before 2013, before the election of 2014.
Not many these so called privacy and human rights activists stood up then.
All propaganda against Aadhar has been intensified only after the Aadhar number started saving money and stared to directly benefit people.
Coincidence?
Also, when the government decided to link Aadhar to the income tax returns, again these privacy activists have become active ?
Coincidence?
Remember, the old lady in a village in in 3rd world does not know about privacy, she is happy because now her 15 son does not need to stand and bribe the gas distribution agency and can study for a day extra.
petertodd|8 years ago
We all know we could reduce crime by putting cameras in people's homes. But we don't do that, because there are risks to those kinds of invasive measures.
Aadhar is infrastructure that allows for centralized control of the population. Sometimes that control will be used for good things, like stamping out bribery. But that control can just as easily be used for evil too. And history has shown time and time again that's exactly what happens. I live in Canada, a country filled with refugees of authoritarian regimes. Among my friends I personally know lots of people who have fled those kinds of regimes; I know very few people who have fled countries because of bribery. The latter is annoying and unproductive, but the former is deadly.
That's why you're seeing so much opposition to Aadhar: because it's incredibly dangerous.
edit: better wording
schoen|8 years ago
I realize you're probably talking about people in India in this context, not people in the U.S., but I helped write part of this anti-Aadhar post back in 2012:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/09/indias-gargantuan-biom...
In support of your view that some critics have minimal knowledge of India, but also in opposition to your view that critics are motivated by considerations of Indian politics, I don't know which party was in power in India either before or after the 2014 election.
JumpCrisscross|8 years ago
flak48|8 years ago
The current PM Modi himself criticized it then : https://twitter.com/narendramodi/status/453543852175925248?l...
Coincidence?
ganduG|8 years ago
The riots in 1984 and in 2001 showed us how voter lists can, and will, be misused by people in power to their own benefit.
_nedR|8 years ago
flak48|8 years ago
aashiks|8 years ago
^ What happens when a centralised system with brittle architecture fails.
For all the nationalistic spiel, the fact remains that even if I have a passport that proves my identity, service providers (public and private, equally) are forced to ask (or just blindly ask for) my Aadhar number (which I don't have) . Ironic isn't it.
aub3bhat|8 years ago
Mozilla is equivalent of those who criticized "Green revolution" because if fed starving people without causing "social revolution" etc. Aadhar has potential to cause "Digital revolution" and decades from now Mozilla will be on the wrong side of history.
Finally any Indian in USA simply has no right to criticize Aadhar since the US Visa process requires biometrics from all visitors.
schoen|8 years ago
I find the "no right to criticize" theory confusing.
I understand if your point is that one might be hypocritical in endorsing one government's biometric collection but not another. But I (a non-Indian) have criticized both US-VISIT and Aadhar. I don't want the U.S. government to have a database of visitors' (or citizens') biometric data, nor do I want the Indian government to have a database of citizens' (or visitors') biometric data. There need not be any hypocrisy or logical contradiction in that.
Edit: it looks from elsewhere in the thread like your point is that Indians in the U.S., in particular, must have acquiesced in giving their biometric data to the US-VISIT program (otherwise they would not have been admitted). I think there is some force to that argument, but it also seems to suggest that people who accept any government's preconditions for doing anything that they did not absolutely have to do are then giving up their right to criticize the government for imposing that requirement. For example, some people in the U.S. have criticized local government for requiring a government cosmetology license in order to practice eyebrow threading. I assume that some of those critics have nonetheless signed up for such licenses. Did they completely surrender their right to criticize that requirement when they did so?
JumpCrisscross|8 years ago
Such hyperbole weakens your argument. It's borderline zealous. I don't think you are a zealot and I think you have a valid argument, although I disagree with you. But expressing good thoughts in hyperbole is not effective here.
(Another example is the "no right to criticise" argument. Nobody cares who has a legal right to do disagree. This isn't a court of law. All we care about are good arguments. If someone is hypocritical, point that out. But people can be hypocritical while still having a good point.)
it_learnses|8 years ago
>Finally any Indian in USA simply has no right to criticize Aadhar since the US Visa process requires biometrics from all visitors.
This simply doesn't hold any logic. If Aadhar is so good, then it should be able to stand up to any argument based on its merits regardless of where it's coming from. Can you actually present any points against the points being made by Mozilla?
Are you ok with your intimate personal details being sold to private companies? Maybe your son or daughter have a sickness and now all the private companies can know about it. Maybe years from now the collected data will be used to make decisions about whether to admit them into a school or hire them as professionals.
Please think calmly and logically rather than being sensational, egotistical, and personal. Nobody is trying to hurt your "Indian Pride".
ganduG|8 years ago
ShirsenduK|8 years ago
anujdeshpande|8 years ago
_nedR|8 years ago
I can understand how Aadhar reduces the corruption of common people (like in the case of tax evasion). And the government loves to reduce corruption of the common man. However it is very unwilling to lower its own corruption.
flak48|8 years ago
adityab|8 years ago
This is BS because getting a visa is a conscious choice, Aadhar is forced upon India's residents. You're attacking people for having an opinion that's contrary to yours.
About your other points - no one is denying the benefits of having a strong unique ID system that lets people interface with government services; the problem is that Aadhar has no safeguards for privacy - which you would've focused on had you bothered to read the article.
hackuser|8 years ago
> not making insinuations about astroturfing and shills, unless you have evidence
That's confusing: What evidence could users have? In my comment, one of the ones you objected to, I cited some strong patterns in the discussion. That's going to be the best evidence that users have access to unless it's very clumsily executed. The astroturfers aren't going to out themselves; looking like ordinary users is the fundamental requirement of 'astroturf'.
So if there's no possible sufficient evidence, do you really mean, 'don't bring it up at all?' I understand not accusing individuals without evidence, but nobody even should point out the general possibility, saying for example, "it seems like something odd is going on here; all these talking points look the same and are made provocatively ..."?
There is no doubt astroturf happens here, simply because there is overwhelming evidence that it is rampant on the Internet and HN isn't exempt. If users can't discuss the topic at all (probably not what you meant), that would shield the bad actors and be a recipe for it to happen unrestrained.
EDIT: some clarifying edits
dang|8 years ago
unknown|8 years ago
[deleted]
aashiks|8 years ago
Posting these for everyone's benefit.
abhishivsaxena|8 years ago
1) Aadhaar is not fundamentally different than a National ID which every other country in this world has. India not only lacked it, out birth registrations certificates weren't reliable at all.
2) Yes they do collection Biometrics(BM). But BM are never shared with any other agency/company. And it's strictly codified in law. BM are only used for deduplication(1b+ population), and authentication.
3) For KYC(Know your Customer) or E-Payments BM based authentication is much more secure than what's being used currently - signatures, and self attested xerox which anyone can forge/photoshop.
4) You can also ask Aadhaar server to dispatch an SMS to your mobile number every time an authentication happens. Now compare that your signature/xerox which anyone can forge/photoshop and you would have no idea about it.
5) In this changing world who would you want to control identity? A private company like Apple which can block you or some developer anytime and there would be no recourse? Or a govt agency - backed by a law of Parliament - that you can drag to court.
6) Want to build a marketplace for house-maids? Or for farmers? Don't want it bogged down by scamsters which in the end depressing adaption?
Easy add Aadhaar based autnetication to your app. http://bridge.aadhaarconnect.com/
7) For financial products like bank accounts, mutual funds etc Aadhaar brings down compliance cost. So for a MF while in the old system it wouldn't be viable to take an investment of less than 50k Rs because the compliance cost itself would be 1k Rs or something, now you can do it under 10 Rs.
Are we making a better world or not, in which the poor have access to Mutual funds, Insurance etc or Mozilla thinks it's not?
Please watch this https://youtu.be/LJCEyqcKN3Q?t=5m50s and tell me which other country in this world can match this. Getting a loan in under 8 minutes. Or opening a bank account in under 10 min.
This is a technological revolution - but not happening in Copenhagen or Zurich, but dusty villages of India.
I have had enough of these Aadhaar critics - and now Mozilla - who have colonised their minds with some western ideas, and are unable to see what's happening in India.
Bottom line, there's no better example of how technology can drastically change lives for the poor and the needy than Aadhaar.
Those who are unable to see it, are usually just biased because need clicks for their publications, or need to build their reputation as security analyst or something by bashing something. Look into this thread itself, and you'll find them linking to each other's twitter profile etc. Sickening really.
schoen|8 years ago
Not the United States!
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card... seems to suggest national IDs are voluntary in 15 countries, nonexistent in 9, and mandatory in 82. One thing that seems possibly significant is that six of the non-mandatory ones include the entirety of the "Anglosphere".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglosphere
That's right, each of the Anglosphere countries has no mandatory national ID. And although the culture and politics of those countries varies quite a bit, including with regard to privacy and civil liberties issues and beliefs about state power, I believe that each one includes a significant number of citizens who are quite proud that there's no mandatory ID, regarding it as a particular way in which their country is more free than others, and as something worth defending.
devnonymous|8 years ago
http://aadhaarcarduid.org/uidai-cancelled-3-8-lakh-fake-aadh...
Firstly, the Indian goverment is not even interested in debating or engaing people who have a different viewpoint than them, including the Superme Court of India. So, tell me again, which is this India you speak about that is allegedly soloving its problems ? I feel like Indians like me are lesser Indians than thos that toe the Goverment line.I often think about this when it comes to Indians reacting to critizims about India:
Except from the book "Restart"[1]
...and this book is not even about sociology or politics, it is about economics.http://www.amazon.in/Restart-Last-Chance-Indian-Economy/dp/8...
dang|8 years ago
Please don't break the HN guidelines by going on about downvotes.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14431021 and marked it off-topic.
bpodgursky|8 years ago
hackuser|8 years ago
Seeing the same, generally weak talking points, angrily defending the Indian government, advocating nationalistic points of view, and repeated over and over - it all reminds me of threads critical of China and Russia.
dang|8 years ago
You can't make insinuations of astroturfing or shillage on HN without evidence. Haven't we discussed this with you before? Please don't comment like this again.
prodmerc|8 years ago
captn3m0|8 years ago
hackuser|8 years ago
Not a complaint, but it looks like the symptoms of what I asked about.
abhishivsaxena|8 years ago
There are more anti-aadhaar green accounts in this thread than pro-aadhaar. If your only argument is to bring thowaway statements like Nationalism/Russia etc into it, then it just reflects poorly on you.
aashiks|8 years ago
[deleted]
dang|8 years ago
This breaks the HN guideline against name-calling in arguments. Please edit that kind of thing, and bilious bits in general, out of your comments if you want to post here.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14431021 and marked it off-topic.
unknown|8 years ago
[deleted]
realonedev|8 years ago
[deleted]
abhishivsaxena|8 years ago
[deleted]