This is a great example of taking a coasting or downward-trending venture and pivoting into something new, without sacrificing your existing cash flow.
It seems like the proof of concept is going well, confirming that the basic model is sound. What comes next is to scale it up.
The farmers are also researching existing innovations in the field (i.e. harvesters), with the goal of extending those innovations to meet the field's unique challenges.
They are also selling initial product, which although is much more expensive than similar products of this type, is serving to bootstrap continued and expanded production, with the goal of reducing price by increasing supply.
(Huh, I think I went off on a tangent and started taking about Tesla.)
I don't understand why people would throw shade onto this. Not only is this entrepreneurial spirit, it's _successful_ entrepreneurial spirit.
Did I miss the pricing bit? All I saw was a quote saying that specialty coffee that sells for $120/lb exists, not that these places are selling it. (if you're looking for it you can find absurdly expensive anything, the only coffee you'll find at that top price is probably kopi luwak where they harvest the beans from civet poop)
The important question is: is it good? I typically spend around $25 / pound on coffee beans, which is a fairly large amount of money. But: the beans I buy are very freshly roasted right near where I live and make excellent coffee (which I make by the cup, pour-over style), and I only drink a cup or two a day.
I'd see my way to paying more if the beans were somehow qualitatively better - I had some $50 / lb coffee once that was totally worth it (I hate to use the word mouthfeel, but this coffee really legit had a velvety rich mouthfeel that I'd never experienced in a cup of coffee before or since, and a great aroma and flavor to go with it), and I've tried other coffees that were high up on the expense level that were totally not worth it. Most probably aren't worth it.
So: how does it compare? Is the ridiculous price just because you're from california? No thanks, I'll take my ethiopian amaro gayo, tyvm.
Alrighty then. You pay $25 for freshly ground coffee roasted right near where you live. And you only drink a cup or two a day. Let's call that 1.5 cups a day. A pound will provide 48 6 oz cups which will last you 48/1.5 = 1 month.
So it doesn't matter that your coffee was roasted very near where you live since on average it's two weeks old.
Me, I live in Oakland and I like a local roaster McLaughlin in Emeryville. I can get beans or ground from Farmer Joes, also local. But I don't overvalue locality to the extreme. I buy McLaughlin because I like the taste and for what it's worth, I buy ground not bean.
Unfortunately, I don't know what the metric is. I just have this snippet from the article:
> A year earlier, Coffee Review, a trade publication, had given Good Land’s Caturra coffee a score of 91 out of 100, and depending on the roast, brew and time of harvest, the farm’s coffees have scored from the mid-80s to the low 90s on other quality tests.
Unfortunately the article is a bit light on details like which roasteries are selling product. But I imagine some research would find the info, including current varieties and prices.
As for the high price now, I think it's because of the in-development and scarce nature of the product.
So, keep drinking what you're drinking (and kudos for finding your fave), but keep an ear out for future news!
$25 is not very much when you compare it to other luxury goods, like wine or whisky or cask-aged beers. I started drinking coffee because it was a relatively inexpensive hobby.
Also had a wtf reaction to that number. "Cup of joe" implies black coffee, or at most cream or milk added. The most expensive cup of black coffee I've had is one from a vacuum style system in Japan ($10~). Pour over cups in shops are usually on the expensive side due to labor, and are $4-5.
Espresso based milk drinks at a boutique shop are 3.50-5.00.
Obviously you can order ridiculous Starbucks drinks that add up, but all things considered, a $12 cup of joe is a pretty rare purchase for an American.
Side note: coffee is also produced in Puerto Rico. Whether or not that should be counted as part of the US is debatable but it's interesting that there was no mention.
Edit: NPR article from 2015[1] discussing coffee production in Puerto Rico.
As with the wine industry, University of California at Davis has established a coffee research program, in part funded by Peet's Coffee. I did a double take the first time I heard of this, but it make sense and now I wonder why it didn't happen sooner, given UC Davis' focus on specialty agriculture:
So what? There are lots of status symbol/gimmick products that are successful. Also, I would expect the price to go down over time as production and use of automated machinery increased.
I hope the prices for these coffees come down, though I get why business-wise it makes sense for them to target the ultra-high-end market at their stage. The idea of good coffee from somewhere as close as California is a bit exciting to me.
---
Sorry if the rest is slightly off-topic. After reading all the comments here about the coffee prices mentioned in the article, and seeing what every considers "normal" prices, I feel compelled to make the following PSA:
Save your money and roast your own coffee at home, if you are able to (* more on that below).
I've been doing this for about 3 years now. There's a small learning curve, but as Kenneth Davids puts it in his book [1] (paraphrasing): "The difficulty of roasting coffee is somewhere between frying an egg and making a good hollandaise".
I buy my favorite coffees from around the world as dried green beans for around $5-7 per pound. Furthermore, coffee greens can last quite a while in your pantry if kept in well ventilated burlap sacks (a couple years, or more). This allows me to stockpile like 50 pounds of coffee to roast throughout the year. Also, there's really nothing that quite compares to coffee a day or two after it's been roasted. I can easily brew way better coffee than most coffee shops here in Austin, TX (though there's a couple exceptional ones here with more time/skill/resources than I).
To roast coffee, my low-budget setup is:
- A heavy pan / popcorn popper (mine: https://www.amazon.com/Zippy-Pop-Stovetop-Capacity-Stainless/dp/B00PFRRA0Q)
- A portable heat source (I use an induction range)
- Colander / wooden spoon / shop fan
- A well-ventilated outdoor space (a balcony does just fine), there's smoke / messy chaff
(* if you don't have access to outdoor space, it can be a deal breaker)
Every week, I spend about 20 minutes total roasting a new batch of coffee (end up with ~12oz roasted). Total equipment investment for me was like $150. I can also enjoy some really great espresso with my budget setup (manual lever machine + Pharos hand grinder), but doing that well is a steeper learning curve.
What might need to be emphasized is that much of the "exotic" $25/lb to $50/lb pre-roasted coffee is produced with green beans that you can likely buy online in single pound quantities for around $5 to $10 per pound.
You do lose a little weight in the roasting process, but it's still quite a difference. Here's an article with a summary of the economics, which concludes that the "all in" price of home roasting $6/lb beans is less than $8/lb: https://ineedcoffee.com/the-quick-economics-of-home-roasting...
Plugging a friendly business, Sweet Maria's is nice place to order from, with a large online selection of excellent beans in that $5-$7 per single pound range: https://www.sweetmarias.com/category/green-coffee
I've tried (I use the coffee popper), and it's very satisfying, but also I'm pretty bad at it. I'm pretty sure I can't get the heat to evenly distribute right - I ended up with some beans way scorched. Still, fun.
Have you tried the stainless steel colander and heat gun method?
Stir 4-5 handfuls of green beans with a wooden spoon until done. If looking done in 5 minutes they are scorched, if not done in 10 they are baked. Setup cost of about $10-20.
Is there a word for "I was researching an obscure topic and then a couple hours later a major publication writes about it?"
I was just researching boutique coffee growing farms in tropical Australia and wondering if in the future people would pay double what they pay now for coffee. And then this shows up on hn.
Read through the whole thing looking to explain how this is even possible. Is the "coffee belt" not as absolute as I thought? Can you just grow arabica anywhere?
would this meet Rainforest Alliance standards? With coffee being the worlds second largest commodity, I am particularly bothered by both my addiction and the difficultly in finding Rainforest Alliance certified options. It seems like fair trade is easy to find in Trader Joes for instance, but after 20 minutes of looking/reading, I simply couldn't find beans that weren't possibly deforesting rainforests are that had their CO2 footprints examined/offset. Hoping this could be a great win for labor, rain forests (reusing existing agricultural land), etc.
One other point - their trees have been getting older and there is more forign competition is growing BUT, demand has outpaced supply with prices being high, more mainstream consumption in North America and now increasingly in Asia Pacific. I read a lot about the Avacado industry (not really sure why) but from what I have seen from the Avacado's growers groups, their profits have been skyrocketing with demand changes over the last 20 years.
"There are roughly 800 coffee farms in the Hawaiian Islands producing as much as nine million pounds of unroasted beans a year; California produces only hundreds of pounds."
California coffee production would have to increase by five orders of magnitude to compare with Hawaii.
I don't suppose California's farmers are stupid, so I presume it's someone else's stupidity that has made it attractive to grow coffee, the latest in a long line of water-intensive crops, in dry southern California.
When are Californians going to realize that it's this sort of thing, not a decent shower, that is the cause of the ill effects of a decade of drought? And why do Californians keep subsidizing farmers' water-usage when that is plainly the root of the problem?
In the state assembly, there are a lot of reps who answer directly to farmers, and there are a lot of reps who answer to people with a romanticized notion of farming (and an overestimated idea of the importance of agriculture to CA's economy).
Also, the problem you describe is enormous, and not limited to water. I think it's a problem of innumeracy and lazy thinking. "I drove 6 miles to the grocery store in my SUV, but I brought a few reusable bags so I'm doing my part!" seems to be a common sentiment. The fact that they burned 2 or 3 pounds of fuel but brought an ounce (or less) of reusable plastic with them doesn't cross their mind.
The baristas at work tell me off for adding milk to their batch brew. Mind, they have extremely good quantity control & carefully select their beans, so it tastes pretty good just by itself.
This is relevant, why? "There are roughly 800 coffee farms in the Hawaiian Islands producing as much as nine million pounds of unroasted beans a year; California produces only hundreds of pounds. Globally, 12 billion pounds of coffee are consumed each year
[+] [-] CaliforniaKarl|8 years ago|reply
This is a great example of taking a coasting or downward-trending venture and pivoting into something new, without sacrificing your existing cash flow.
It seems like the proof of concept is going well, confirming that the basic model is sound. What comes next is to scale it up.
The farmers are also researching existing innovations in the field (i.e. harvesters), with the goal of extending those innovations to meet the field's unique challenges.
They are also selling initial product, which although is much more expensive than similar products of this type, is serving to bootstrap continued and expanded production, with the goal of reducing price by increasing supply.
(Huh, I think I went off on a tangent and started taking about Tesla.)
I don't understand why people would throw shade onto this. Not only is this entrepreneurial spirit, it's _successful_ entrepreneurial spirit.
I wish them all the best!
EDIT: Spelling
[+] [-] colechristensen|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nailer|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pfooti|8 years ago|reply
I'd see my way to paying more if the beans were somehow qualitatively better - I had some $50 / lb coffee once that was totally worth it (I hate to use the word mouthfeel, but this coffee really legit had a velvety rich mouthfeel that I'd never experienced in a cup of coffee before or since, and a great aroma and flavor to go with it), and I've tried other coffees that were high up on the expense level that were totally not worth it. Most probably aren't worth it.
So: how does it compare? Is the ridiculous price just because you're from california? No thanks, I'll take my ethiopian amaro gayo, tyvm.
[+] [-] CalChris|8 years ago|reply
So it doesn't matter that your coffee was roasted very near where you live since on average it's two weeks old.
Me, I live in Oakland and I like a local roaster McLaughlin in Emeryville. I can get beans or ground from Farmer Joes, also local. But I don't overvalue locality to the extreme. I buy McLaughlin because I like the taste and for what it's worth, I buy ground not bean.
[+] [-] CaliforniaKarl|8 years ago|reply
> A year earlier, Coffee Review, a trade publication, had given Good Land’s Caturra coffee a score of 91 out of 100, and depending on the roast, brew and time of harvest, the farm’s coffees have scored from the mid-80s to the low 90s on other quality tests.
Unfortunately the article is a bit light on details like which roasteries are selling product. But I imagine some research would find the info, including current varieties and prices.
As for the high price now, I think it's because of the in-development and scarce nature of the product.
So, keep drinking what you're drinking (and kudos for finding your fave), but keep an ear out for future news!
[+] [-] greglindahl|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] driverdan|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pdog|8 years ago|reply
A single pound of coffee makes about 50 cups. Who seriously pays this much?
[+] [-] fiatpandas|8 years ago|reply
Espresso based milk drinks at a boutique shop are 3.50-5.00.
Obviously you can order ridiculous Starbucks drinks that add up, but all things considered, a $12 cup of joe is a pretty rare purchase for an American.
[+] [-] jMyles|8 years ago|reply
What method are you using to make 50 cups from a pound?!
I get 20-25 from pourover; slightly less from aeropress.
[+] [-] ams6110|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bradgessler|8 years ago|reply
Specialty pour-over coffee is usually between a 1:15 and 1:10 ratio.
[+] [-] ocb|8 years ago|reply
Edit: NPR article from 2015[1] discussing coffee production in Puerto Rico.
[1] http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/05/13/404228117/pue...
[+] [-] heartbreak|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 11thEarlOfMar|8 years ago|reply
https://coffeecenter.ucdavis.edu/
http://www.sacbee.com/news/business/article100401787.html
[+] [-] theparanoid|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cm2012|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hn_throwaway_99|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ereyes01|8 years ago|reply
---
Sorry if the rest is slightly off-topic. After reading all the comments here about the coffee prices mentioned in the article, and seeing what every considers "normal" prices, I feel compelled to make the following PSA:
Save your money and roast your own coffee at home, if you are able to (* more on that below).
I've been doing this for about 3 years now. There's a small learning curve, but as Kenneth Davids puts it in his book [1] (paraphrasing): "The difficulty of roasting coffee is somewhere between frying an egg and making a good hollandaise".
I buy my favorite coffees from around the world as dried green beans for around $5-7 per pound. Furthermore, coffee greens can last quite a while in your pantry if kept in well ventilated burlap sacks (a couple years, or more). This allows me to stockpile like 50 pounds of coffee to roast throughout the year. Also, there's really nothing that quite compares to coffee a day or two after it's been roasted. I can easily brew way better coffee than most coffee shops here in Austin, TX (though there's a couple exceptional ones here with more time/skill/resources than I).
To roast coffee, my low-budget setup is:
(* if you don't have access to outdoor space, it can be a deal breaker)Every week, I spend about 20 minutes total roasting a new batch of coffee (end up with ~12oz roasted). Total equipment investment for me was like $150. I can also enjoy some really great espresso with my budget setup (manual lever machine + Pharos hand grinder), but doing that well is a steeper learning curve.
[1] Kenneth Davids. Home Coffee Roasting. https://www.amazon.com/Home-Coffee-Roasting-Revised-Updated/...
http://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/ is also a great resource.
[+] [-] nkurz|8 years ago|reply
You do lose a little weight in the roasting process, but it's still quite a difference. Here's an article with a summary of the economics, which concludes that the "all in" price of home roasting $6/lb beans is less than $8/lb: https://ineedcoffee.com/the-quick-economics-of-home-roasting...
Plugging a friendly business, Sweet Maria's is nice place to order from, with a large online selection of excellent beans in that $5-$7 per single pound range: https://www.sweetmarias.com/category/green-coffee
[+] [-] pfooti|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lostlogin|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cylinder|8 years ago|reply
I was just researching boutique coffee growing farms in tropical Australia and wondering if in the future people would pay double what they pay now for coffee. And then this shows up on hn.
[+] [-] joshvm|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pkulak|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lostlogin|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 4714|8 years ago|reply
Good luck!
[+] [-] carbocation|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] denim_chicken|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dmritard96|8 years ago|reply
One other point - their trees have been getting older and there is more forign competition is growing BUT, demand has outpaced supply with prices being high, more mainstream consumption in North America and now increasingly in Asia Pacific. I read a lot about the Avacado industry (not really sure why) but from what I have seen from the Avacado's growers groups, their profits have been skyrocketing with demand changes over the last 20 years.
[+] [-] eltondegeneres|8 years ago|reply
https://fairtradeusa.org/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/fileman...
Fair trade certified shade grown coffee is probably your best bet for farmer and earth friendly coffee.
[+] [-] firloop|8 years ago|reply
https://goodlandorganics.com/store/roasted-coffee
Not sure if I could stomach paying $6.50/cup for my daily pourover that I make at home, but hey, this is out there.
[+] [-] theparanoid|8 years ago|reply
California coffee production would have to increase by five orders of magnitude to compare with Hawaii.
[+] [-] hammock|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pash|8 years ago|reply
When are Californians going to realize that it's this sort of thing, not a decent shower, that is the cause of the ill effects of a decade of drought? And why do Californians keep subsidizing farmers' water-usage when that is plainly the root of the problem?
[+] [-] CalRobert|8 years ago|reply
Also, the problem you describe is enormous, and not limited to water. I think it's a problem of innumeracy and lazy thinking. "I drove 6 miles to the grocery store in my SUV, but I brought a few reusable bags so I'm doing my part!" seems to be a common sentiment. The fact that they burned 2 or 3 pounds of fuel but brought an ounce (or less) of reusable plastic with them doesn't cross their mind.
[+] [-] DanBC|8 years ago|reply
> Coffee requires almost 10 times as much water [than tea], using 1,056 gallons of water per gallon of brewed coffee.
That's a lot.
[+] [-] raverbashing|8 years ago|reply
Some people don't know what they're doing
[+] [-] dang|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] falsedan|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] falsedan|8 years ago|reply
> Some people don't know what they're doing
I think they know exactly how to signal their bourgeoisie values to their peers.
[+] [-] aorloff|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] skookumchuck|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thaumasiotes|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blazespin|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chillingeffect|8 years ago|reply