Watching Anderson Cooper try a schizophrenia simulator is one of the most stress-inducing things I've ever seen. I'll occasionally hear a voice here and there (I guess this is somewhat common?), but am able to normally brush it off. I couldn't imagine living daily with this much noise.
One thing of note, found in the YouTube comments, that this example is pretty generic voices, and instead for someone suffering with schizophrenia, imagine having the voice be very specific about the individual, attacking known issues ("Your parents don't love you!" "You're so stupid and everyone thinks you're a failure!"). I can't imagine that level of suffering...
But there is always a voice talking in our heads. It's just that we generally ascribe it to our own consciousness but when you really sit down and think about it, it's a bit creepy when you realise that you don't actually know where it's coming from and what is prompting it to say what it is saying.
Try counting without “talking.” That is, without saying the numbers in your head.
Try tapping on the desk or your lap an arbitrary number of times without going “1, 2, 3..” and see if you can still know how many times you tapped.
——
Follow-up question: Is language necessary for thought?
Try forming thoughts without forming any words in your head.
You might notice that there’s a much faster “higher priority process” in the head that already “knows” what to say before you “hear” the words of that thought forming in your head..
But there WILL be words. It may seem almost impossible to suppress the formation of words while thinking.
Do “feral children” that grow up without any human contact have the ability to “think?”
——
Also, during inner monologues or what have you, do you refer to yourself in the singular or plural?
e.g., do you go “I should [do that]” or “We should [do that]?”
You should try meditation. Effectively you 'stop' listening to the voice and then things all go a bit crazy. The voice talks to itself, memories become really vivid, hallucinations can happen too. And all while you just observe what is going on. Can be quite fun.
The contrast is explicitly between thoughts that feel internal and guided versus those that feel intrusive and uncontrollable.
edit: personally, the fact that I don't have an intimate understanding of how my nervous system works doesn't make it creepier than anything else that exists.
I don't hear a voice in my head nor do I really have the sort of internal monologue or dialogue that many people describe here. My thoughts are much more spatial, for lack of a better word. A sense of expanse and topology, neither visual nor aural. I have to go through a step of composition to put thoughts into words, whether writing or speaking.
I've had close contact with a paranoid schizophrenic relative, and from what I can tell they really experience intrusive "other" thoughts and perceptions. It's not always a voice talking in their head or over their shoulder, but sometimes a sense that ideas or beliefs have intruded from elsewhere with no clear sense of arrival or beginning. Like a glitch in the matrix.
One thing that never bothered me much was those intuitive insights or logical leaps thay seemingly come out of nowhere. That is until I read a comment about speculation that ancient cultures viewed it as coming from an external (mystical) source and then I realized just how little conscious thought goes into many of those thoughts. It's kind of unsettling that there's so much going on that's "separate" from our conscious minds. If those thoughts were even a little screwy or misaligned it would be a nightmare.
You raise a fascinating subject, but a distinction needs to be made between auditory hallucinations and inner dialogue. They may be interconnected concepts, but the manifestation is very different.
I rarely, if ever, hear voices in my head that I don't will myself to have, like when I'm considering the phrasing of this sentence.
Although, I am always very puzzled when I think about my speech, especially in conversation, and how the phrasing of words get put in order so quickly, almost unconsciously.
I've trained myself how to do this. Sure, call them psychics. I usually attribute them as having an innate ability to do this.
As for me, there are schools of magic that teach how to develop this. I didn't believe at first, but with enough "coincidences", I accepted it tentatively.
I still seek for a way to harmonize this with science proper. But most people are too caustic and closed-off to even give this a consideration.
There are really 2 options:
1. Everything is purely physical. When you die, you are worm food, the end. Many people 'believe' this, given no proof of either way.
2. The other option is that there is some unknown type of "energy" (boy, do I hate that word, BTW). And our bodies are some sort of receiver. Some times, we can receive other stuff. It would also explain out of body experiences, dreams that feel like more, feeling people watching you, near-death experiences, parents being able to sense when their child's hurt at a distance, and other things. How does this work? No bloody clue.
If everything's simply physical, then who cares? You're worm food anyways. The second offers much more - some people can communicate with it. So, how does it work? How can I receive it, say, from a computer receiver? How do I transmit? How do I view it?
But hostiles will be hostiles, well, until we start seeing more "Science of Consciousness" work. Then finally, we can bring the Occult and Psychism to science proper.
------------------------------
(EDIT: Wow, again, another mod-storm. It seems the staunch atheists and antitheists are going at this thread with a vengeance.
I'm only highlighting 'interesting' phenomenon, for a possibility others might find something interesting and share their findings. You know, it's kind of how science works. Well, unless it's an echo-chamber filled with sycophants repeating their own religious dictates that 'the occult and psychism doesnt exist'. I know the path I understand it, but it is unprovable to others. Tl;Dr: study of N=1.
I'll wait for you deniers to explain consciousness. I'll be waiting.)
> 1. Everything is purely physical. When you die, you are worm food, the end. Many people 'believe' this, given no proof of either way.
Other than it's the only thing we have evidence for. You know... that. It's quite rational to 'believe' something when all evidence we have points to it. The reverse is not true.
Which brings me to...
> The other option is that there is some unknown type of "energy" (boy, do I hate that word, BTW). And our bodies are some sort of receiver.
Ok, so test this. If it exists and has an effect it should be measurable. Guess what's good at measuring stuff? Science. So go get that Nobel or something - help design a test and study for it!
OoBE, lucid dreams, and NDE's all have very normal non "energy" explanations when you dive into anything more than a superficial level (and they are fascinating! It's a really cool area of science!)
> The second offers much more
Yes, empty promises with no proof are generally considered to offer plenty but unless you can show me actual evidence then it's just more snake oil.
sorry you're being downvoted. hypocritical, really.
i assume you are being downvoted because you are preaching faith: something you feel which is hard to quantify and prove.
I call this behavior hypocritical because I'm sure none of your naysayers would argue we don't dream- something we only know exists because we've shared our experiences with each other. if they want to deny we dream- well- at least they're consistent.
my plea: just because we cannot currently quantify something does not mean it's unscientific to discuss it.
> "I'll wait for you deniers to explain consciousness. I'll be waiting."
well said. I am tired of "we don't know so don't dare try discuss it." that kind of logic will hurt science more than it will help.
It's fairly easy to trick yourself into hearing voices: as you're going to sleep, picture yourself watching a newsreader. Keep watching them talk. Eventually your brain starts to switch to sleep mode and you actually start hearing something. (Well, you might fall asleep first.) If you're conscious enough it'll surprise the heck out of you and then the voice will go away.
Given how easy it is to pull this trick on yourself, I'm not entirely shocked that some people find it possible without conscious effort. But I think the content is rather like dreams: sometimes it's just nonsense, sometimes it's like that idea that comes to you in the shower, but always part of your brain processing your waking experiences.
I'm sorry, as a schizophrenic I'm calling bullshit on this one. Psychics? Seriously people? How about adequate treatment programs and access to affordable medication.
I agree,but isn't the article a good step towards educating the public about the nuances of these diseases? I think the spectrum is so broad, and maybe it will help the people with milder symptoms at it's tail end by making the society more receptive. I have a relative who is scheizophrenic and I can't stress how important it is to make people aware, and enable them to see from a compassionate angle. To me this article goes in the same direction as the remarkable article done years ago by Rachel Aviv [1] To me we need more like this. And also the article does mention how the researchers stress on proper diagnosis and treatment.
Modern psychology needs to come to grips with The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. A trove of riches for anyone interested in practical psychology.
That's like saying that archaeology needs to come to grips with Erich von Däniken. It's not as if modern scholars are oblivious to Jaynes’ ideas. They have been examined, but they have been found wanting.
never a fan of people saying "X field is missing out on Y book"
it's naive, and it's disrespectful to the field and its experts to claim that a book intentionally written to be accessible to laymen can invalidate the work of specialists.
Interesting research on how hallucinations relate to "an increase in tiny movements in the muscles associated with vocalization".
Maybe the movements and the brain activity causing that happen first, and the "consciousness" just try to interpret that in the best way it can.(I think there are some patterns here that is much like the "interpretations" described in the split brain studies [1]). When the signals get too weird and does not fit in to any interpretation that is defined as "normal", we go into the Schizophrenia territory.
When I was a child (5 or 6) I remember often hearing voices – sometimes muttering, sometimes shouting angrily. It was often when I was sick, or suffering from a fever. It stopped happening I guess, but I still wonder if that's normal?
> Overall the machine works well but I’m still not happy with the hopper and the first stage belt. It is running much slower than the speed at which the parts recognizer works (30 parts / second) and I really would like to come up with something better.
It sounds like your existing hopper is reliable but slow? If that's the case, could you just make two (perhaps somewhat smaller) hoppers and merge their outputs?
Carl Sagan talks a little bit about Schizophrenia in his book Dragons of Eden. I've held for a long time now that what we experience as "consciousness" is just an evolutionary adaptation and what we call Schizophrenia is this same adaptation just gone a little haywire. I believe animals, mammals in particular, are fundamentally no different in this regard, it's just that the sophistication of their inner voice is likely to just be far inferior to ours due to our brain/body ratio and the development of the neocortex in humans. For me, personally, I feel that when I speak to myself in my head, the inner-chatter I think of as consciousness, I also feel as though I'm speaking words through my mouth, I'm just not using it. Maybe language also has something to do with it? Maybe we developed language and "consciousness" together?
Just a pet personal theory, could be likely very wrong and I'm sure since this is the Internet somebody will be happy to oblige.
" Maybe we developed language and "consciousness" together?"
I read/watched something some time back. It used to be believed that folks that couldn't hear - and therefore, couldn't talk - also had low IQ's. It turned out this can be correct if folks aren't taught sign language early in life. It went on to refer to language as the program that lets us run consciousness.
So yeah, you are probably onto something. Language and consciousness, if not developed together, definitely seem to go hand in hand.
I like that theory. Maybe much of what we associate with the word "consciousness" are the mental models which cannot exist without language, like the social aspects Yuval Noah Harari talks about.
Talking through a problem in my head is the most natural way to solve it for me. I've always wondered if that counts as hearing voices. Especially because sometimes it's hard to shut off at night when I need to go to sleep.
No, it's not the same thing at all. There is a distinct difference between your own internal dialogue and hearing voices. When you are hashing out things with yourself, you perceive yourself as the source of the voices/thoughts.
On the contrary, when you hear voices, they are like an intrusion. You do not perceive them as yourself, nor as your own thoughts, but as if someone else stepped into your head and said something that you were not contemplating, in a voice that sounds nothing like your own.
A lot of people experience this phenomena when they are just on the verge of falling asleep. Now imagine that same thing happening when you are wide awake.
I've always wondered if that counts as hearing voices.
In my reading of Buddhist writings, the non-stop, live-streaming audio track is common enough (arguably universal) that this is addressed in those writings. So, no, I don’t think it counts if we all have it. :-)
As far as going to sleep, meditation helps. Zen-style Buddhist meditation addresses “the voice” specifically: be apathetic to it, not trying to block or ignore it, just be with it. Of course the whole of Zen thought can’t be described in a sentence. Contact your local zendo for more information. :-) Personally, when I’ve been a “good” Zen student for a period of time, “the voice” can go away on occasion, usually during meditation. Now that is...different.
It doesn't "count" from a psychological perspective until it really starts impacting your life in negative (and measurable) ways.
A common example might be "keeps you up at night" — which can happen to people from time to time, but the moment it starts damaging your relationships and ability to live comfortably it becomes something that might be a part of a clinical diagnosis (simply "hearing voices" isn't a problem on its own without other factors).
If the public could learn one thing about psychology I think it should probably be that there's never "just one thing" when it comes to identifying problems. A single compulsion doesn't mean you have OCD, for example.
In my dreams, other people talk without me controlling what they say, so obviously they have their own internal voice independent of mine, yet they all live in my mind. (People I know tend to act like I'd expect them to act. They're the embodiement of my perception of them in real life, but autonomous.) I've always found that strange that people could live in my head during dreaming.
What's more, I sometimes dream of people doing creative things or creating stories. Yet those things obviously come from my own brain. I can't figure out how my brain does it. It's smarter than my conscious self.
You can hear God speaking to you in your mind if you'll make the effort to pray to Him. However, what He responds back with will never contradict his written word (Bible).
People claim God told them to go kill a famous person. What they actually heard was from the devil. They already had some internal reason to want to do the crime anyway.
A study (that I could find if someone is really interested) found that the zone of the brain that activated when you thought about god was the same as the zone that activated when you thought about yourself.
Actually what happens when they hear something unethical is that believing people excuse that on the devil, whereas for atheists it was as stupid moment of yourself.
[+] [-] sharkweek|8 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL9UJVtgPZY
One thing of note, found in the YouTube comments, that this example is pretty generic voices, and instead for someone suffering with schizophrenia, imagine having the voice be very specific about the individual, attacking known issues ("Your parents don't love you!" "You're so stupid and everyone thinks you're a failure!"). I can't imagine that level of suffering...
[+] [-] vpribish|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skc|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Razengan|8 years ago|reply
Try counting without “talking.” That is, without saying the numbers in your head.
Try tapping on the desk or your lap an arbitrary number of times without going “1, 2, 3..” and see if you can still know how many times you tapped.
——
Follow-up question: Is language necessary for thought?
Try forming thoughts without forming any words in your head.
You might notice that there’s a much faster “higher priority process” in the head that already “knows” what to say before you “hear” the words of that thought forming in your head..
But there WILL be words. It may seem almost impossible to suppress the formation of words while thinking.
Do “feral children” that grow up without any human contact have the ability to “think?”
——
Also, during inner monologues or what have you, do you refer to yourself in the singular or plural?
e.g., do you go “I should [do that]” or “We should [do that]?”
[+] [-] BurningFrog|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hacker_9|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pharrington|8 years ago|reply
edit: personally, the fact that I don't have an intimate understanding of how my nervous system works doesn't make it creepier than anything else that exists.
[+] [-] saltcured|8 years ago|reply
I've had close contact with a paranoid schizophrenic relative, and from what I can tell they really experience intrusive "other" thoughts and perceptions. It's not always a voice talking in their head or over their shoulder, but sometimes a sense that ideas or beliefs have intruded from elsewhere with no clear sense of arrival or beginning. Like a glitch in the matrix.
[+] [-] brazzledazzle|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] o_____________o|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whytaka|8 years ago|reply
Although, I am always very puzzled when I think about my speech, especially in conversation, and how the phrasing of words get put in order so quickly, almost unconsciously.
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] occultist_throw|8 years ago|reply
As for me, there are schools of magic that teach how to develop this. I didn't believe at first, but with enough "coincidences", I accepted it tentatively.
I still seek for a way to harmonize this with science proper. But most people are too caustic and closed-off to even give this a consideration.
There are really 2 options:
1. Everything is purely physical. When you die, you are worm food, the end. Many people 'believe' this, given no proof of either way.
2. The other option is that there is some unknown type of "energy" (boy, do I hate that word, BTW). And our bodies are some sort of receiver. Some times, we can receive other stuff. It would also explain out of body experiences, dreams that feel like more, feeling people watching you, near-death experiences, parents being able to sense when their child's hurt at a distance, and other things. How does this work? No bloody clue.
If everything's simply physical, then who cares? You're worm food anyways. The second offers much more - some people can communicate with it. So, how does it work? How can I receive it, say, from a computer receiver? How do I transmit? How do I view it?
But hostiles will be hostiles, well, until we start seeing more "Science of Consciousness" work. Then finally, we can bring the Occult and Psychism to science proper.
------------------------------
(EDIT: Wow, again, another mod-storm. It seems the staunch atheists and antitheists are going at this thread with a vengeance.
I'm only highlighting 'interesting' phenomenon, for a possibility others might find something interesting and share their findings. You know, it's kind of how science works. Well, unless it's an echo-chamber filled with sycophants repeating their own religious dictates that 'the occult and psychism doesnt exist'. I know the path I understand it, but it is unprovable to others. Tl;Dr: study of N=1.
I'll wait for you deniers to explain consciousness. I'll be waiting.)
[+] [-] abritinthebay|8 years ago|reply
Other than it's the only thing we have evidence for. You know... that. It's quite rational to 'believe' something when all evidence we have points to it. The reverse is not true.
Which brings me to...
> The other option is that there is some unknown type of "energy" (boy, do I hate that word, BTW). And our bodies are some sort of receiver.
Ok, so test this. If it exists and has an effect it should be measurable. Guess what's good at measuring stuff? Science. So go get that Nobel or something - help design a test and study for it!
OoBE, lucid dreams, and NDE's all have very normal non "energy" explanations when you dive into anything more than a superficial level (and they are fascinating! It's a really cool area of science!)
> The second offers much more
Yes, empty promises with no proof are generally considered to offer plenty but unless you can show me actual evidence then it's just more snake oil.
[+] [-] catshirt|8 years ago|reply
i assume you are being downvoted because you are preaching faith: something you feel which is hard to quantify and prove.
I call this behavior hypocritical because I'm sure none of your naysayers would argue we don't dream- something we only know exists because we've shared our experiences with each other. if they want to deny we dream- well- at least they're consistent.
my plea: just because we cannot currently quantify something does not mean it's unscientific to discuss it.
> "I'll wait for you deniers to explain consciousness. I'll be waiting."
well said. I am tired of "we don't know so don't dare try discuss it." that kind of logic will hurt science more than it will help.
[+] [-] muninn_|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moomin|8 years ago|reply
Given how easy it is to pull this trick on yourself, I'm not entirely shocked that some people find it possible without conscious effort. But I think the content is rather like dreams: sometimes it's just nonsense, sometimes it's like that idea that comes to you in the shower, but always part of your brain processing your waking experiences.
[+] [-] ltwdm|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] microwavecamera|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ltwdm|8 years ago|reply
[1] http ://www.columbia.edu/cu/neuwrite/pubs/avivHarpers.pdf
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] bitwize|8 years ago|reply
Nothing.
Modern psychology needs to come to grips with The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. A trove of riches for anyone interested in practical psychology.
[+] [-] lukasb|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mediterraneo10|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bllguo|8 years ago|reply
it's naive, and it's disrespectful to the field and its experts to claim that a book intentionally written to be accessible to laymen can invalidate the work of specialists.
[+] [-] Phemist|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Cozumel|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ltwdm|8 years ago|reply
Maybe the movements and the brain activity causing that happen first, and the "consciousness" just try to interpret that in the best way it can.(I think there are some patterns here that is much like the "interpretations" described in the split brain studies [1]). When the signals get too weird and does not fit in to any interpretation that is defined as "normal", we go into the Schizophrenia territory.
[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/07/split-bra...
[+] [-] 0898|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] justinpombrio|8 years ago|reply
> Overall the machine works well but I’m still not happy with the hopper and the first stage belt. It is running much slower than the speed at which the parts recognizer works (30 parts / second) and I really would like to come up with something better.
It sounds like your existing hopper is reliable but slow? If that's the case, could you just make two (perhaps somewhat smaller) hoppers and merge their outputs?
[+] [-] orf|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sreeramvenkat|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] crispytx|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] muninn_|8 years ago|reply
Just a pet personal theory, could be likely very wrong and I'm sure since this is the Internet somebody will be happy to oblige.
[+] [-] Broken_Hippo|8 years ago|reply
I read/watched something some time back. It used to be believed that folks that couldn't hear - and therefore, couldn't talk - also had low IQ's. It turned out this can be correct if folks aren't taught sign language early in life. It went on to refer to language as the program that lets us run consciousness.
So yeah, you are probably onto something. Language and consciousness, if not developed together, definitely seem to go hand in hand.
[+] [-] ltwdm|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sillysaurus3|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] teilo|8 years ago|reply
On the contrary, when you hear voices, they are like an intrusion. You do not perceive them as yourself, nor as your own thoughts, but as if someone else stepped into your head and said something that you were not contemplating, in a voice that sounds nothing like your own.
A lot of people experience this phenomena when they are just on the verge of falling asleep. Now imagine that same thing happening when you are wide awake.
[+] [-] mikestew|8 years ago|reply
In my reading of Buddhist writings, the non-stop, live-streaming audio track is common enough (arguably universal) that this is addressed in those writings. So, no, I don’t think it counts if we all have it. :-)
As far as going to sleep, meditation helps. Zen-style Buddhist meditation addresses “the voice” specifically: be apathetic to it, not trying to block or ignore it, just be with it. Of course the whole of Zen thought can’t be described in a sentence. Contact your local zendo for more information. :-) Personally, when I’ve been a “good” Zen student for a period of time, “the voice” can go away on occasion, usually during meditation. Now that is...different.
[+] [-] accountyaccount|8 years ago|reply
A common example might be "keeps you up at night" — which can happen to people from time to time, but the moment it starts damaging your relationships and ability to live comfortably it becomes something that might be a part of a clinical diagnosis (simply "hearing voices" isn't a problem on its own without other factors).
If the public could learn one thing about psychology I think it should probably be that there's never "just one thing" when it comes to identifying problems. A single compulsion doesn't mean you have OCD, for example.
[+] [-] yoodenvranx|8 years ago|reply
I recently realized that listening to a "boring" podcast or youtube videos while trying to fall asleep will shut down all those voices and thoughts.
[+] [-] pierrebai|8 years ago|reply
In my dreams, other people talk without me controlling what they say, so obviously they have their own internal voice independent of mine, yet they all live in my mind. (People I know tend to act like I'd expect them to act. They're the embodiement of my perception of them in real life, but autonomous.) I've always found that strange that people could live in my head during dreaming.
What's more, I sometimes dream of people doing creative things or creating stories. Yet those things obviously come from my own brain. I can't figure out how my brain does it. It's smarter than my conscious self.
[+] [-] xyzzy4|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FrozenVoid|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jamiek88|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pcunite|8 years ago|reply
People claim God told them to go kill a famous person. What they actually heard was from the devil. They already had some internal reason to want to do the crime anyway.
[+] [-] DigitalJack|8 years ago|reply
Tell that to Abraham.
[+] [-] jackmott|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Faaak|8 years ago|reply
Actually what happens when they hear something unethical is that believing people excuse that on the devil, whereas for atheists it was as stupid moment of yourself.