This removes one of the major reasons to use a Mac for Linux development. Many people used Macs because they had nice hardware that just works, as well as a Unix (but not Linux) environment. Now, you can buy a Windows laptop and have Windows manage all the tricky bits like power management and graphics while having a bona fide Linux distro for development. Plus, you can also play games :)
As someone who just switched from windows to Mac, when you pick windows you also gain periodic show stopping problems, kafkaesque hoops to jump through randomly in the middle of your workflow, a slightly terrible security architecture and the ability for family and friends to see you using windows and are clearly an expert and then ask you to fix their crapware ridden death boxes. At least you gain thousands of google results for every problem coming your way.
Incidentally yesterday I ran out of disk space on my old windows laptop. There was a windows problem reporting process that ate 100MiB once an hour. Eventually over the space of weeks you lose your entire disk then spend an hour googling the numerous incantations that need to be applied to fix this most of which don't work. Random shit like this happens at least once a week or so and just ruins an afternoon.
Also don't think that the built in ubuntu or windows shell stuff actually works properly. There are many horrible bugs. Nothing on windows works properly for months if not years. Even with creators update, I used putty and virtual box because it was that bad.
Also you're going to miss things like keychain in OSX.
Edit: also my old T440 which I was running windows on, Lenovo couldn't ship working drivers for creators update and the moment that got rolled out TSHTF. This resulted in the SATA controller hanging for 30 seconds every five minutes and locking the machine up. I wasted six hours trying to find a combination of drivers and PM config that actually didn't do this. That's a whole day of work down the pan.
There is just ZERO quality on the platform and I'm done with it.
> Now, you can buy a Windows laptop and have Windows manage all the tricky bits like power management and graphics while having a bona fide Linux distro for development.
I know I'm being "that guy", but I've never personally had a problem with Linux's power management or graphics. And I really like my tiling window managers and free software stack. I understand that some people have, but usually it's the fault of proprietary drivers and not Linux (and I don't purchase machines that require proprietary drivers to use).
But again, whatever floats your boat. I've personally started playing OpenMW (a free software implementation of "The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind" engine) which works excellently under GNU/Linux.
W/r/t the OP, I have trouble thinking that the Linux Subsystem is as full a solution as it's made out to be, but on-topic discussion isn't not what comments thread brawls are for!
I'm consistently amazed that the response is always that "Windows sucks" even as it's gotten better than the 95/XP/Vista experience. It's 2017, .NET runs on Linux now and VS runs on macOS, can't we all just get along? Of course, that sentiment exists for good reason even as Microsoft improves its product offerings. Every stable Windows install is just one third-party enterprise shitware deployment from automating BSOD reboots.
Tooling aside--VS is great if you add "finally" and "for some tasks" and if Powershell ever reaches a finished state that'd be good, but I still don't use either--regardless of how slap-dash and inconsistent Windows (lol X11) can be, the part of Windows that sucks the most is working at companies that require its use. If you haven't worked somewhere where people aspire to be "Sharepoint Administrators", where people "fix" prod data in Access and where >25% of your CPU cycles go to black-box antivirus vendor apps that had unpatched CVEs discovered in the past month, you really should so you can remember why you left.
> This removes one of the major reasons to use a Mac for Linux development
I find it hard to believe many people using a Mac for Linux development, will (want|be able) to use this the same way.
Anything that needs to simulate prod-ish environments for developers, will be using a VM (and if you're not, you should be) often via Vagrant.
This also limits you specifically to Ubuntu, so it's automatically going to be invalid for a lot of things that either a) are tested/built for multiple distros anyway or b) targeted at a specific distro that isn't Ubuntu.
Edit: additionally, using a Mac means you (via VM's) run any OS (or Browser, if it's a web project) you need, to test the software.
Personal experience : Windows becomes sluggish over time (XP, 7, 8, 10 tried all of them). There could be myriad of reasons e.g. "smart" services, too many programs in autostart. I've been a power user and try to disable such things pro-actively but it's not comparable to a fresh install. Whereas with Ubuntu, it says near fresh even after years of use. Again, this is personal experience. YMMV.
So, I cannot imagine using Windows as my primary machine. Not sure about Mac, hopefully it's good. Linux is fine so far as my primary desktop / server.
That said, this news is quite exciting for both corporate & personal machines and I hope to see it progress.
For what it's worth, WSL appears to have pretty terrible filesystem performance. This may not be noticeable for somebody coming from macOS, but definitely very noticeable coming from a real EXT4 or XFS Linux system.
I frankly don't understand why anyone would care to run anything but Linux on their workstation if their production deployments are Linux.
> Now, you can buy a Windows laptop and have Windows manage all the tricky bits like power management and graphics while having a bona fide Linux distro for development.
Not to detract from this very nice development, but it's still the case on many laptops that installing Linux tends to extend battery life substantially, not to mention make graphics more stable (at least, given FOSS-friendly graphics hardware).
But if you need both Windows and Linux readily available, and spend a lot of time in both rather than favoring one over the other, this certainly offers a compelling alternative to a Windows VM.
Linux becoming the subject of a flamewar between mac-its and win-its. That's hilarious, from the perspective of a old-time Linux evangelist.
Can I conclude that "we won" ? \o/
I once started with DOS, moved to windows, linux (various distro's), now already for a few years on osx.
Windows doesn't even come close to the reliability and comfort of my macbook-pro. I was always reluctant to move to osx, but I have to admit, this is simply the very best and most reliable machine I've ever had! It never crashed once, while I push it to it's limits every day!
There always was Docker or MSYS2, so if someone really wanted to, he could already use Windows for his Linux developments. There are some limitations, yes, but WSL also comes with it own set of problems.
As far as I can tell, one still have to run an Xserver on Windows if you want to do graphics (set display to localhost:0) and so no acceleration, hoping that changes at some point.
>> This removes one of the major reasons to use a Mac for Linux development
If I wanted Ubuntu, I would have it on my MacBook (dual boot or replacement). I don't want Ubuntu. I want OS X. Apple hardware is great for development, but the real reason I am here is for the operating system and software. So no, Windows+Ubuntu does nothing to replace a MacBook or iMac with OS X.
For me one very important aspect of Linux is that the OS is decoupled from any kind of "consumer experience". In other words nothing in the OS is ever asking me:
Who I am
For Payment Information
Would I like to see an Ad
Do I need additional products or services
So I appreciate that this is handy for some people, but to me it's like avocado ice-cream. A bad idea that tastes like crap.
Even clicked the linked articles and never came across a satisfying answer to the question: why? And I mean practical use cases where one would pick WSL over Linux. Once bitten twice shy, I would not hold against them if people were to be skeptical when MS decides to embrace competing products.
I never quite get developers that don't use a system most similar with they deployment target... If I develop web apps intended to run on -nix, I use Linux, if I develop Windows stuff, I use Windows etc.
It creates a huge understanding gap that slows you down and makes you miss so many shortcuts...
Windows, Macos, Linux are all good enough to get shit done these days... so pick whichever suits current needs best. (I reboot to different OS depending on project since this also helps me avoid my dangerous tendency for multitasking... and productivity/office tools are all web apps for me so I can use them anywhere, including phone and tablet).
PSA: filesystem performance in WSL isn't great, but it's absolutely fantastic under windows' hyperv hypervisor.
As a dev env I run CentOS on hyperv and putty into it, and map the drive with dokan+winsshfs, and it's just as performant as Linux/Mac on the same hardware
It's the 5th result for me (when searching Ubuntu), after a Linux Cheat Sheet, some PasteBin program and WepUpd8 (whatever that may be), then when I click it, the first line says: "This title is powered by great new feature of the windows insider program, please join at..."... Now should I, do I need to do that? The Get button is greyed out, but no indication why (probably because me company hasn't approved the anniversary update yet). What a crappy experience.
I just don't care anymore - I keep windows on VM it's way easier (eg. WSL doesn't support docker). I don't use any other Windows app except: VS (from time to time) and Word. VirtualBox is more than enough for this (my host linux desktop is beefy machine though)
I have a Linux laptop and a windows laptop. I bought the windows laptop for games and to hobby in game development , blender and unreal engine but I can't stand windows even for those basic purposes the popups for updates and other "do you want to set this setting now" when I just quickly want to open a browser and google something drive me nuts. Put notifications in the toolbar in the right with some annoying icon and leave me alone. I know what Linux is doing all the time and if not it's easy to look up but windows Microsoft magic makes me feel like I need tons of more security apps than I would like to have running. I need a windows lite.
Microsoft has one problem - it struggles with it being irrelevant.
Years after years of shaming from angry penguins did their job. Now Linux is cool and Win is not. Well, Mac is now supposed to be even cooler.
Windows can't regain even a second place as a development platform unless, ... , it stops being windows. The negative connotation and "uncoolness," just sticks to anything that remotely touches Microsoft. Unless they can do something like a total market and product production approach U-turn as a company, they can't change their trajectory into the dustbin of history.
Doesn't this break every policy the app store has about what programs can and can't do? This has full system access and every other app is constraint to the file dialog to get write permissions.
Very excited! Been using the WSL for a bit now to do tensorflow and python stuff. Just a bit of tweaking to get it all to work (less than an hour), and I get to dual boot less frequently now.
Why not installing tensorflow on Windows directly? The WSL does not currently support accessing hardware like GPU so there is no benefit of using tensorflow on WSL.
how are file endings handled with WSL? last time I tried using git & sublime text on Windows with some version of cygwin it would checkout a repo with windows file endings, which broke all the bash scripts. if it uses POSIX file endings, how about opening the files with windows applications like VS?
Edit: Also, does the windows terminal now have some sane colour scheme? I could never make it work to not show me some completely unreadable colors, like dark blue text on black ground or light yellow on white.
WSL doesn't change the line endings, so you'll want to make sure that if you use Git for Windows along with it, you set it up to use Unix line endings. Most decent editors (including VS and VSCode) can handle LFs just fine. The most annoying gap is Notepad.
We are definitely aware of the problems with the terrible color scheme. I don't remember right now if we have done anything about it quite yet... but it should be coming. In the meantime you can adjust the colors manually.
I always configure git and all editors on Windows to use LF line endings. It is so annoying that so many applications use CRLF endings by default, I never understood reason for that, I'm always using LF and have no issues.
Is this different from the linux subsystem microsoft already supports? Which is nice, and would,be worthwhile if i had enough motivation to use windows gui programs, but is limited given that you have to jump through an extra hoop to run linux gui programs, and cant even access your linux partitions from it
[+] [-] RcouF1uZ4gsC|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] staofbur|8 years ago|reply
Incidentally yesterday I ran out of disk space on my old windows laptop. There was a windows problem reporting process that ate 100MiB once an hour. Eventually over the space of weeks you lose your entire disk then spend an hour googling the numerous incantations that need to be applied to fix this most of which don't work. Random shit like this happens at least once a week or so and just ruins an afternoon.
Also don't think that the built in ubuntu or windows shell stuff actually works properly. There are many horrible bugs. Nothing on windows works properly for months if not years. Even with creators update, I used putty and virtual box because it was that bad.
Also you're going to miss things like keychain in OSX.
Edit: also my old T440 which I was running windows on, Lenovo couldn't ship working drivers for creators update and the moment that got rolled out TSHTF. This resulted in the SATA controller hanging for 30 seconds every five minutes and locking the machine up. I wasted six hours trying to find a combination of drivers and PM config that actually didn't do this. That's a whole day of work down the pan.
There is just ZERO quality on the platform and I'm done with it.
[+] [-] cyphar|8 years ago|reply
I know I'm being "that guy", but I've never personally had a problem with Linux's power management or graphics. And I really like my tiling window managers and free software stack. I understand that some people have, but usually it's the fault of proprietary drivers and not Linux (and I don't purchase machines that require proprietary drivers to use).
But again, whatever floats your boat. I've personally started playing OpenMW (a free software implementation of "The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind" engine) which works excellently under GNU/Linux.
[+] [-] horusthecat|8 years ago|reply
I'm consistently amazed that the response is always that "Windows sucks" even as it's gotten better than the 95/XP/Vista experience. It's 2017, .NET runs on Linux now and VS runs on macOS, can't we all just get along? Of course, that sentiment exists for good reason even as Microsoft improves its product offerings. Every stable Windows install is just one third-party enterprise shitware deployment from automating BSOD reboots.
Tooling aside--VS is great if you add "finally" and "for some tasks" and if Powershell ever reaches a finished state that'd be good, but I still don't use either--regardless of how slap-dash and inconsistent Windows (lol X11) can be, the part of Windows that sucks the most is working at companies that require its use. If you haven't worked somewhere where people aspire to be "Sharepoint Administrators", where people "fix" prod data in Access and where >25% of your CPU cycles go to black-box antivirus vendor apps that had unpatched CVEs discovered in the past month, you really should so you can remember why you left.
[+] [-] stephenr|8 years ago|reply
I find it hard to believe many people using a Mac for Linux development, will (want|be able) to use this the same way.
Anything that needs to simulate prod-ish environments for developers, will be using a VM (and if you're not, you should be) often via Vagrant.
This also limits you specifically to Ubuntu, so it's automatically going to be invalid for a lot of things that either a) are tested/built for multiple distros anyway or b) targeted at a specific distro that isn't Ubuntu.
Edit: additionally, using a Mac means you (via VM's) run any OS (or Browser, if it's a web project) you need, to test the software.
[+] [-] inertial|8 years ago|reply
So, I cannot imagine using Windows as my primary machine. Not sure about Mac, hopefully it's good. Linux is fine so far as my primary desktop / server.
That said, this news is quite exciting for both corporate & personal machines and I hope to see it progress.
[+] [-] microcolonel|8 years ago|reply
I frankly don't understand why anyone would care to run anything but Linux on their workstation if their production deployments are Linux.
[+] [-] JoshTriplett|8 years ago|reply
Not to detract from this very nice development, but it's still the case on many laptops that installing Linux tends to extend battery life substantially, not to mention make graphics more stable (at least, given FOSS-friendly graphics hardware).
But if you need both Windows and Linux readily available, and spend a lot of time in both rather than favoring one over the other, this certainly offers a compelling alternative to a Windows VM.
[+] [-] lolive|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Nursie|8 years ago|reply
I suppose they've mostly been thinkpads, but some other stuff too - eeepc's from back when they were a thing, sony vaios.... all sorts.
[+] [-] uranian|8 years ago|reply
Windows doesn't even come close to the reliability and comfort of my macbook-pro. I was always reluctant to move to osx, but I have to admit, this is simply the very best and most reliable machine I've ever had! It never crashed once, while I push it to it's limits every day!
[+] [-] jhasse|8 years ago|reply
There always was Docker or MSYS2, so if someone really wanted to, he could already use Windows for his Linux developments. There are some limitations, yes, but WSL also comes with it own set of problems.
[+] [-] ChuckMcM|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] developer2|8 years ago|reply
If I wanted Ubuntu, I would have it on my MacBook (dual boot or replacement). I don't want Ubuntu. I want OS X. Apple hardware is great for development, but the real reason I am here is for the operating system and software. So no, Windows+Ubuntu does nothing to replace a MacBook or iMac with OS X.
[+] [-] simulacrum|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scandox|8 years ago|reply
Who I am
For Payment Information
Would I like to see an Ad
Do I need additional products or services
So I appreciate that this is handy for some people, but to me it's like avocado ice-cream. A bad idea that tastes like crap.
[+] [-] nol13|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marmaduke|8 years ago|reply
WSL is cool, but frankly the built in hypervisor is better.
[+] [-] xyzxyz998|8 years ago|reply
Can you elaborate on what is it that is bad about WSL being on Windows? How does it make things bad for anybody? It's called choice.
[+] [-] a_imho|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fzzr|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] userbinator|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nnq|8 years ago|reply
It creates a huge understanding gap that slows you down and makes you miss so many shortcuts...
Windows, Macos, Linux are all good enough to get shit done these days... so pick whichever suits current needs best. (I reboot to different OS depending on project since this also helps me avoid my dangerous tendency for multitasking... and productivity/office tools are all web apps for me so I can use them anywhere, including phone and tablet).
[+] [-] dingo_bat|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] marmaduke|8 years ago|reply
As a dev env I run CentOS on hyperv and putty into it, and map the drive with dokan+winsshfs, and it's just as performant as Linux/Mac on the same hardware
[+] [-] teekert|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johnchristopher|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boramalper|8 years ago|reply
"Microsoft has a majority market share" Bug #1 (liberation) reported by Mark Shuttleworth on 2004-08-20
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1
[+] [-] tkubacki|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cdevs|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pgl|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baybal2|8 years ago|reply
Years after years of shaming from angry penguins did their job. Now Linux is cool and Win is not. Well, Mac is now supposed to be even cooler.
Windows can't regain even a second place as a development platform unless, ... , it stops being windows. The negative connotation and "uncoolness," just sticks to anything that remotely touches Microsoft. Unless they can do something like a total market and product production approach U-turn as a company, they can't change their trajectory into the dustbin of history.
[+] [-] flukus|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] microtheo|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] guftagu|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SpaceManNabs|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kbumsik|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] option_greek|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] laktak|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] m_mueller|8 years ago|reply
Edit: Also, does the windows terminal now have some sane colour scheme? I could never make it work to not show me some completely unreadable colors, like dark blue text on black ground or light yellow on white.
[+] [-] jstarks|8 years ago|reply
We are definitely aware of the problems with the terrible color scheme. I don't remember right now if we have done anything about it quite yet... but it should be coming. In the meantime you can adjust the colors manually.
[+] [-] petters|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nenreme|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] balakk|8 years ago|reply
https://conemu.github.io
[+] [-] snarfy|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dcow|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] etatoby|8 years ago|reply
At least they have the decency to call it Ubuntu and not Linux in the promotional material.
Personally, I would have called it Line (Line Is Not an Emulator) or Eniw
[+] [-] TheChosen|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maxscam|8 years ago|reply