I can see why the MTA wouldn't want you telling people to go to a track before it is actually assigned -- if the train ends up on a different track, now you need to get all those people back up, off that platform an on to the new one, clogging stairs that that people who actually wanted that platform might be trying to use too. Obviously it would be nice to assign tracks earlier, so that people can head straight to the right platform, but sending people to potentially the wrong platform seems even worse.
EDIT:
Penn is extremely platform/track constrained -- NJ Transit, LIRR and Amtrak are all sharing a fixed number of platforms, some of which are too short.
To maximize platform utilization, they have to wait until the last minute to finalize track assignments -- if you reserve one too early and the train ends up late, you're wasting an empty platform. Once you send a horde of people to a platform, moving them to a different one is a challenge (stairs/bottlenecks, communication, etc).
It's more serious than that even, it's a safety issue. The platforms are fairly narrow and have no railings, and they aren't designed to hold two full train loads of people at the same time.
If a full train pulls up and the platform is already full people are going to end up on the tracks. I haven't seen this at Penn but I have seen the issue happen in the subway when there are train delays. When this happens the MTA has to hold the arriving train in the station with the doors closed and clear the platform before opening the doors to let people off.
It's a nightmare. Their concerns here seem completely reasonable.
Have you ever taken a rush hour train at Penn Station? The alternative (i.e. current system) is everyone congregates on the concourse staring at the platform screens, and when a new one pops up hundreds of people flood in the direction of that platform in a mad dash. It's a mess.
I don't use the LIRR tracks often, but many of the Amtrak trains arrive at the same track or 1-2 tracks. Veteran travelers know where to go, casual travelers are stuck in this maze that is very difficult to navigate.
Thing is though, they could be providing that data MUCH earlier both on the displays and to a phone app. It's not like they don't decide where a train is going until it gets to the station, that would be ridiculous, they'd have to know a while in advance to make sure the track is available, clear, operating correctly, and do all the necessary switching (and more importantly, do so in such a way that doesn't impact other trains).
MTA's appeared a number of times on this website and by all accounts it's where tech innovation goes to die, most of their service is still based on switch wire systems that were built in the 60's. Whether that's due to bureaucratic inertia, inadequate funding, or unions or whatever I have no idea, but that's the real problem.
For about a year a decade and a half ago, I commuted into and out of Penn Station with my father who had been doing so since the late 70s.
Not only did he know which track any of a half dozen trains that he might take would come in on but he knew where the doors would open for each of the tracks. And he wasn't the only one either. If you went down before they announced the tracks you'd see little clusters of people waiting apart from each other on an otherwise empty track. We'd usually go to the same car in order to reduce the distance on the other side. Other commuters would do likewise and so trains would have a contingent of regulars.
There's a fascinating kind of micro-expertise that develops when you do the same thing over and over again.
same thing on the subway, with an extra dimension of starting on the local, switching to the express, then transferring at another station. Pretty quickly you get to know where to stand to get on the most efficient end of the train to be closest to the stairway up to the transfer platform, etc. Makes an otherwise tedious trip somewhat interesting as a puzzle.
As an interesting, although unrelated aside: platform data is available in the UK's National Rail's feeds, but the terms and conditions[1] explicitly prohibit displaying platform numbers early, as mentioned in their developer guidelines[2].
I guess the wording doesn't technically ban you from displaying historical platform information, but that would likely be a bad-faith use of the data anyway...
[2] http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/Developer_Gui...
"Occasionally Time-Bound Data will become available through NRE feeds before it is ready to be
published to the public. [...] One such example of Time-Bound Data is platform numbers. Early display of platform numbers,
particularly at origin and destination stations, can lead to platform overcrowding and/or staff not
having sufficient time to prepare the train for oncoming passengers. In some instances, platform
numbers will be available in Darwin before being displayed on screens in stations."
UK rail data is quite open in comparison to this story, for instance check out these live track diagrams (of London Waterloo & many other areas) which show real-time movements of trains. This is how I often find out the platform numbers prior to travel and I also get information before staff during disruption.
Once upon a time, the platform used to be displayed in the National Rail app, even when it wasn't shown on the departure boards…For a long time I used that to good effect to get a seat on rush-hour trains at Paddington.
That changed a few years ago, interesting to see the formal policy behind it, and an idea for a side-project :-)
Was going to post this - have users submit the track data! That also might make it easier to expand to other stations where you aren't as familiar with the track layout.
Google almost certainly already could, without even asking the commuters, since they have real time location for so many Android phones. But there's a chicken and egg problem: it's hard to get the data before you're able to offer anything in return.
Thank you! I definitely considered doing something like that, however — the amount of work required to crowd source the data would be significant. There would be a “chicken & egg” problem — the app wouldn’t be useful to first users, and without the first users, there wouldn’t be enough data to make it useful for everyone else — so this would require a fairly large marketing campaign to get off the ground.
But — one day I may still do it :)
For Penn Station in particular, one can beat the crowd by heading downstairs and looking at the small CRT under the stairs. You will see the platform assignment at the same time as the crowd, but you are closer to the platforms and don't have to use the same stairs as everyone else.
There is a similar issue with the MBTA commuter rail in Boston. At south station, the signage in the main waiting area and at the platform only announce the train 10 minutes before departure.
However, there are a couple of tools to get around this. For Starters, each revenue service train has a number (like 508). In a push-pull system like the MBTA the first coach in the consist is nearest to to the platform. This coach has a number like 1827. Luckily, the MBTA publishes which trainsets will be assigned to which departures. This makes it easy to know that 1827 is for train 508. All you need to do is walk out to the platform and see if 1827 is sitting there.. if so it's your train. You can get this mapping of trainset to train via a bunch of apps.
This has been further expanded upon by micro-social apps like "MBTA Rail Tracker" which has a comment section for every train. The whole thread is basically "which platform" followed by a bunch of responses and then snarkiness on why the trains are horribly late all the time.
I've been collecting Penn Station NJT and LIRR track assignment data for almost a year now. I've been intending to use ML to predict track assignment, but haven't gotten there yet. I should post it to Kaggle or somewhere similar.
Do you think the track assignment is something that's learnable? I feel like there is some schedule where, under normal operations, the train will end up. But then there are unpredictable events that cause this to change.
Interestingly enough, I have had this same exact idea for an app, also being one of those commuters who rely on LIRR trains, also being someone who noticed that my peak train home arrives almost always on the same track, and also being one of the (few) commuters who go down to the platform before the train is called.
It is a shame that this had to happen to OP. I personally don't see the app as an issue, because the amount of commuters that would actually use such a thing is rather low (seriously, stand in the concourse and look around at people, a large amount of them are not using their phones).
My original idea was to scrape the data from their webpage, or see if there was a way to get the data from the Train Time app's Arrival Countdown page, but according to the post, it has been removed from their website, so there goes that idea.
The lesson to me is clear though: don't try to make an app that would make commuter's lives easier. The MTA does not seem to want that, especially during the track repairs. I find it interesting that it was shut down so close to the start of the Penn Station track repairs...
Was thinking the exact same thing. One possible reason would be wrong info, but you could use some sort of weighted algorithm that would need more than one submission to match and/or trust level per submitter based on historical correctness.
See my comment above - it would require a significant effort to get off the ground, as the app without data would not be useful to first users, and without the data provided by those first users, it wouldn't be useful to others.
I wonder if there's any correlation or way to know based on where a train is arriving from to know where it's headed. If that were the case, you could potentially either look for that data, or if it isn't available, have a Waze-like app where commuters can report which train they are on and which track they are pulling into.
As an aside, I wonder whether the OP considered charging a hefty price (>$20 or so) for the app. This would lessen the number of users and page requests.
Having travelled from Penn many times and having had to deal with the massive stampede that ensues when they suddenly reveal the track number, I would pay dearly to have this info available to me. Even if I used it once every year, not having to fight crowds or look forever to find an available seat, that would be money well spent. Additionally, many of the peak travelers are business travelers who probably have more money to spend on an app. I realize this isn't the most democratic solution, but it could be a way to lessen the crowds nonetheless.
Ok, I understand that the Railway Authority don't want people to guess / predict platform numbers because of various reasons (problems with platform maintenance, safety and last min changes etc.
But what I don't understand is that why can't they change the seat allocation process such that people can reserve remaining available seats on the trains for free if they have arrived in station lobby? This can result is reduced rush to grab seats and will help people to make a more informed decision around whether to wait for the next train.
it takes longer to load a train with assigned seating -- that's why say, Amtrak might do it, but commuter rail trains, that at peak run minutes apart and want to minimize dwell-times at highly contended platforms, optimize for loading speed.
Crowdsourcing the track data based on where commuters' phones travel, something like waze for LIRR should help.
Instead of asking users to report the track info, it can be automated to a great extent with the use of BTLE beacons on each platform (but that again needs permission from MTA / Penn station authorities unless a long lasting BT 4.0 beacon can be sneaked in somewhere).
Sad that MTA is not cooperating. Can understand why the app had to be shut down!
Why don't you sue them? It's a government agency, and I believe that the data should be available under New York's public records laws (I only have limited experience with NY's laws and IANAL). From personal experience, being nice to a government agency never got me anywhere, but our lawyer has a 95% win rate against them.
The next train for your destination may be 30 minutes later, or over an hour away. LIRR has about 125 stations in 8 zones. It's not called Long Island because it's small and round.
Scraping the MTA site against the TOS, and intentionally obfuscating requests to limit the chance of the MTA identifying and shutting it down? Yeah, no surprises here.
EDIT: Oops, missed that he didn't end up going live with the scraping.
It would still be great for the MTA to publish this data intentionally; but I'm sure the potential for trains to switch tracks and the associated backlash when they do is what prevents them from doing it.
Perhaps they could adopt the airline model, where there's a best effort to reach a particular pre-announced track, with notifications ringing out when they can't.
Pretty sure that if you read a little further, you will find that the author decided to NOT go with the TOS violating process, and instead used an official MTA API.
state_machine|8 years ago
EDIT: Penn is extremely platform/track constrained -- NJ Transit, LIRR and Amtrak are all sharing a fixed number of platforms, some of which are too short.
To maximize platform utilization, they have to wait until the last minute to finalize track assignments -- if you reserve one too early and the train ends up late, you're wasting an empty platform. Once you send a horde of people to a platform, moving them to a different one is a challenge (stairs/bottlenecks, communication, etc).
CPLX|8 years ago
If a full train pulls up and the platform is already full people are going to end up on the tracks. I haven't seen this at Penn but I have seen the issue happen in the subway when there are train delays. When this happens the MTA has to hold the arriving train in the station with the doors closed and clear the platform before opening the doors to let people off.
It's a nightmare. Their concerns here seem completely reasonable.
spyspy|8 years ago
Spooky23|8 years ago
FussyZeus|8 years ago
MTA's appeared a number of times on this website and by all accounts it's where tech innovation goes to die, most of their service is still based on switch wire systems that were built in the 60's. Whether that's due to bureaucratic inertia, inadequate funding, or unions or whatever I have no idea, but that's the real problem.
bradleyjg|8 years ago
Not only did he know which track any of a half dozen trains that he might take would come in on but he knew where the doors would open for each of the tracks. And he wasn't the only one either. If you went down before they announced the tracks you'd see little clusters of people waiting apart from each other on an otherwise empty track. We'd usually go to the same car in order to reduce the distance on the other side. Other commuters would do likewise and so trains would have a contingent of regulars.
There's a fascinating kind of micro-expertise that develops when you do the same thing over and over again.
mark212|8 years ago
Symbiote|8 years ago
http://www.tubeexits.co.uk/
specto|8 years ago
lukegb|8 years ago
I guess the wording doesn't technically ban you from displaying historical platform information, but that would likely be a bad-faith use of the data anyway...
[1] http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/Terms_and_Con...
[2] http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/Developer_Gui... "Occasionally Time-Bound Data will become available through NRE feeds before it is ready to be published to the public. [...] One such example of Time-Bound Data is platform numbers. Early display of platform numbers, particularly at origin and destination stations, can lead to platform overcrowding and/or staff not having sufficient time to prepare the train for oncoming passengers. In some instances, platform numbers will be available in Darwin before being displayed on screens in stations."
davidjbain|8 years ago
http://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/wat#T_WAT
manarth|8 years ago
That changed a few years ago, interesting to see the formal policy behind it, and an idea for a side-project :-)
mjmasn|8 years ago
parm289|8 years ago
dmurray|8 years ago
zavulon|8 years ago
unknown|8 years ago
[deleted]
ethryx|8 years ago
jfries|8 years ago
harshaw|8 years ago
However, there are a couple of tools to get around this. For Starters, each revenue service train has a number (like 508). In a push-pull system like the MBTA the first coach in the consist is nearest to to the platform. This coach has a number like 1827. Luckily, the MBTA publishes which trainsets will be assigned to which departures. This makes it easy to know that 1827 is for train 508. All you need to do is walk out to the platform and see if 1827 is sitting there.. if so it's your train. You can get this mapping of trainset to train via a bunch of apps.
This has been further expanded upon by micro-social apps like "MBTA Rail Tracker" which has a comment section for every train. The whole thread is basically "which platform" followed by a bunch of responses and then snarkiness on why the trains are horribly late all the time.
DontSueMeBro|8 years ago
jrockway|8 years ago
daburninatorrr|8 years ago
It is a shame that this had to happen to OP. I personally don't see the app as an issue, because the amount of commuters that would actually use such a thing is rather low (seriously, stand in the concourse and look around at people, a large amount of them are not using their phones).
My original idea was to scrape the data from their webpage, or see if there was a way to get the data from the Train Time app's Arrival Countdown page, but according to the post, it has been removed from their website, so there goes that idea.
The lesson to me is clear though: don't try to make an app that would make commuter's lives easier. The MTA does not seem to want that, especially during the track repairs. I find it interesting that it was shut down so close to the start of the Penn Station track repairs...
midnitewarrior|8 years ago
sologoub|8 years ago
zavulon|8 years ago
s73ver|8 years ago
dkrich|8 years ago
As an aside, I wonder whether the OP considered charging a hefty price (>$20 or so) for the app. This would lessen the number of users and page requests.
Having travelled from Penn many times and having had to deal with the massive stampede that ensues when they suddenly reveal the track number, I would pay dearly to have this info available to me. Even if I used it once every year, not having to fight crowds or look forever to find an available seat, that would be money well spent. Additionally, many of the peak travelers are business travelers who probably have more money to spend on an app. I realize this isn't the most democratic solution, but it could be a way to lessen the crowds nonetheless.
x13|8 years ago
But organizations change how they work with customers/the public all the time, and I couldn't help but say Waaah.
Things change; tell us about the alternatives you tried to move around this obstacle.
rishabhsagar|8 years ago
But what I don't understand is that why can't they change the seat allocation process such that people can reserve remaining available seats on the trains for free if they have arrived in station lobby? This can result is reduced rush to grab seats and will help people to make a more informed decision around whether to wait for the next train.
state_machine|8 years ago
calvinbhai|8 years ago
Instead of asking users to report the track info, it can be automated to a great extent with the use of BTLE beacons on each platform (but that again needs permission from MTA / Penn station authorities unless a long lasting BT 4.0 beacon can be sneaked in somewhere).
Sad that MTA is not cooperating. Can understand why the app had to be shut down!
troisx|8 years ago
phonon|8 years ago
londons_explore|8 years ago
Are tickets only for a specific time of train?
Or are trains less frequent than every 10 minutes?
dsr_|8 years ago
wfisher|8 years ago
We do this for NJ Transit with about 90% accuracy. We spent at least two months figuring out how it all works, though. It's non-trivial to do right.
bayyar|8 years ago
rocky1138|8 years ago
troisx|8 years ago
danesparza|8 years ago
drinchev|8 years ago
karrotwaltz|8 years ago
So the only way to gather the data would be manually from the station.
rayboy1995|8 years ago
falcolas|8 years ago
EDIT: Oops, missed that he didn't end up going live with the scraping.
It would still be great for the MTA to publish this data intentionally; but I'm sure the potential for trains to switch tracks and the associated backlash when they do is what prevents them from doing it.
Perhaps they could adopt the airline model, where there's a best effort to reach a particular pre-announced track, with notifications ringing out when they can't.
Sir_Cmpwn|8 years ago
As an aside, fuck websites that prohibit scraping. If you send me some bytes I'm gonna do whatever I damn well please with them.
teddythetwig|8 years ago
boobsbr|8 years ago
Where does it say it was against the TOS?
drinchev|8 years ago