As someone from Europe it is good to see the EU manufacturers finally showing some serious progress.
I always chuckled a bit when (tech) press would say 'Google has beaten auto manufacturers' after Google released some PR videoclip of them showing a car driving.
European car companies just don't see the need to enlighten the world about what they're up to, how they are progressing, but simply work until it's finished for production and then unveil it.
Still haven't seen that 'vastly superiour' super-car from Google and Apple everyone claimed were coming to take over.
Tesla does seem to succesfully run their company as a tech start-up: hyping new products that are 1 or 2 year from being in production, personification of the brand via the CEO god-status, continuous deliviry of software updates to cars, public beta testing etc..
I am rooting for Tesla, I hope they find the capability to increase production levels to something that comes near of the existing car giants.
> There are a couple caveats, obviously. The traffic jam pilot only works on highways with a physical barrier separating oncoming traffic, and the use of the system is subject to the laws of whichever jurisdiction you’re driving through. So bone up on the rules of the road before pressing that button.
Being able to self-drive on highways with physical barriers between oncoming traffic is, like, the easiest use case for self-driving cars. This doesn't very advanced to me at all. Urban driving is the actual hard part.
> I always chuckled a bit when (tech) press would say 'Google has beaten auto manufacturers' after Google released some PR videoclip of them showing a car driving.
While I also want to see european car makers tackling these challenges, how is the posted report different from a fluff piece about Google's experiments? Other than the lack of a video demonstration.
At this point Audi's announcement sounds like a bunch of over-promised, ambitious claims with a high potential of turning into vaporware. I might be wrong and all of it is very real and working, but you can't come to that conclusion by reading that article alone.
I agree with you to a point, but Google's target is much more moon-shot. Door-to-door complete self-driving in all circumstances, not just highway under careful conditions.
And by all indications they are succeeding - the roadblock is regulations and turning it into a consumer product. The tech is there.
I agree that there's some genuinely impressive and underrated stuff hitting the market from many manufacturers (even in sub-luxury brands), but Tesla has a real and formidable advantage in the amount of data they're collecting.
well there is a lot of behind the scenes work with major suppliers. auto companies tend to be very conservative when introducing new technologies because the liability issue is a major concern and possibly even more important, they cannot afford to tarnish the brand.
because of their innate audience they don't need to make spectacular announcements to generate interest. companies without large established bases in the field do. Tesla is special in that they have a CEO who doesn't seem to have an off switch. However this is not always a positive but they still manage to handle it well.
The 3 will be an interesting car but still highly limited with regards to what many expect cars to do but EVs are still a very young technology. Autonomous driving is where the real money is, it can be applied easily to many types of vehicles, don't over look the usage of similar tech on the mundane like mobility scooters or similar
Google hasn't even released a complete PR demo of their cars, just a few sporadic shots of one of their Koala cars driving around with a blind guy in the driver's seat. The only tangible data that's been released from them is last year's California DMV disengagement reports, which Waymo reported 1 unplanned disengagement for every 5000 miles of testing. But they were driving around downtown SF back in 2011, most of what they've been up to in the meantime is validating their software to the safety and reliability standards they need to be at before this technology can be foisted on the public. They were ready to start moving folks around Mountainview, totally driverless, back in 2015 with their Koala cars but DMV regs put the kibosh on that.
> European car companies just don't see the need to enlighten the world about what they're up to
I certainly appreciate Volvo letting the world know what they're doing to test autonomous cars. I'm glad European carmakers don't work the way you're saying they do.
This press release, when you read the details, is not very impressive.
The headline sounds good, but the details are that it only works on highways, up to 38MPH, and won't be enabled right away; they are going to roll it out later. The one notable thing seems to be that you can be stuck in traffic and take your hands off the wheel, unlike Tesla where you have to have your hands on the wheel.
I'm not sure how they call this "first", since it won't be on new cars released next year, until after some future software update, how is this different from Tesla that is already shipping cars that can do this and more with a software update?
Full disclosure: in Dec I sold my Audi A8 to get a Model S.
Currently, the Model S can basically drive itself in heavy traffic, but it will periodically want your hand(s) on the wheel. I recently was in stop and go traffic on a 2 lane road for an hour and the Tesla did great. The A8 won't be able to there, it won't work on anything but a divided highway which this was not.
Don't get me wrong, I've had 5 Audis over the years and have loved them. But this really isn't "news", Audi is still playing catch up.
Oh, and from the testing I've done this winter, the Tesla AWD system is at least as good as quattro. Probably better.
Also WRT snow performance Telsa has a pretty large advantage over any ICE since they can apply different torque amounts to each wheel in near sub 1ms timeframe due to two factors:
1. Lower rotating mass(you only have stator, axle and wheels in the physical drivetrain.
2. FETs respond much faster than an internal combustion engine.
We got a fair bit of snow a while back and even without dedicated winter tires I was incredibly impressed with the snow/ice handling. Much better than our Subaru by a long shot. You can still get yourself into trouble but it was much harder to overcorrect than on our ICE.
"This press release, when you read the details, is not very impressive."
This press release, like all high end / performance car press releases of the last 2-3 years, can be summed up as:
"blah blah, not electric, blah blah"
Like you, I am an ex-A8 owner who loved (loved!) those cars and have no interest in buying another one - no matter how nice or feature filled or well-designed they are. There's no way they don't know this and it becomes more and more stupefying that they cede this highest-of-margins segment to Tesla.
"Oh, and from the testing I've done this winter, the Tesla AWD system is at least as good as quattro. Probably better."
Exactly - it has two motors.
My disappointment is wide and deep as the major manufacturers continue to refuse to make a modern car. However it is Audi and Volvo in particular whose inaction is truly mind-blowing. Audi because they could continue to own AWD/4WD and volvo because their target market is ripe for the aesthetic and social benefits of electric cars.
Instead, Audi has spent ten years going down the "in 2-3 years we'll have an electric platform" and volvo has committed to a shitty-hybrids-with-lawnmower-engines-inside platform for the next 8-10 years.
I just want to say congratulations to all of the engineers behind it who are reading this thread! Im impressed!
Often when I see a big project come to an end I can not stop thinking about all the hours work put into something which didn't made it to the end. Features they had to abandon or wait with until next revision.
Im very curious how good it will work and will try to get the hands on it as quickly as possible. :)
Level 3: the "you need to stay awake even though you have absolutely nothing to do" mode.
Probably going to turn out to be the most dangerous.
I am planning on dying in my sleep, but not because a Level 3 autonomous car decided to throw a "Can't handle reality" exception.
(This somewhat tongue in cheek response should in no way be read as denigrating the awesome technical achievement Level 3 represents. All speed to Level 4 and Level 5)
In case anyone one else was wondering what these "levels of autonomy" that the article's author so haphazardly assumed was general knowledge, see SAE J3016A[1], which is free to download with a registered SAE account...or your favorite unofficial method.
Table 2 on p. 19 of the 30-page recommendation is a nice TL;DR summary.
Which begs the question...what part of Tesla Autopilot doesn't satisfy the SAE definition?
Its looking more and more like I'm going to get what i want. I'm almost 50 so i could get a fully autonomous car before i can't drive. Won't that be awesome though?
What I find even more exciting is that they're finally deploying their predictive suspension technology in a production model.
What this system does is utilize the front cameras to scan and map the road surface ahead. It can then apply up to 20 kN of force via electric motors to raise or lower the wheels individually. This mitigates bumps from potholes or uneven roads, which, apart from being more comfortable, will also ensure the suspension lasts longer. This system also decreases body roll during turns, and squat / dive under accel / decel. All of it is powered by the 48V semi-hybrid electric system. Expect this to become much more commonplace with further electrification.
Mercedes has a similar technology called Magic Body Control, but it can only tighten or loosen the dampeners, rather than directly move the wheels. What the Audi system can do, which the Merc cannot, is to raise the side of the car during an impending t-bone collision, which allows the main body structure to take the impact instead of the doors.
At this point this is vaporware. The car is still nearly a year away from being on sale, and the software will come even later. Talking up something like this so far ahead is just an attempt to depress sales for its competition.
Calling it "level 3 autonomy" is misleading as well, given how highly constrained the situations are in which it can operate at level 3. From what I can tell from the press release, it only promises that the car can handle a freeway traffic-jam situation, ie, it knows how to stay in a lane and not hit anyone when traffic is crawling on a freeway.
Admittedly such a system would be nice for millions of people who commute through such conditions daily, but that is probably one of the easiest tasks for an autonomous system to perform because huge amounts of complexity can be ignored: pedestrians, cyclists, intersections, road hazards, trip routing. This is a baby step taken at the edge of a huge chasm. Good luck!
My 2015 Hyundai Genesis can already do exactly that. It has automatic cruise control with lane keep assist. Sure, it beeps at me if I leave my hands off the wheel for more than 10 seconds, but if you disabled that in the firmware, it would technically work.
I must have missed something in the text but doesn't the current production VW Golf (part of the same company as Audi) also feature traffic jam assist and lane assist?
I think it uses RADAR instead of LIDAR but I don't know for sure.
Could any explain what the new A8 is offering in addition to the Golf?
In a "level 3" system, how does it know the destination? I suppose, you have to put it in as with a normal GPS first? Then, what does it do at the point the GPS would say, "your destination is ahead on the right, the route guidance is now finished"?
My VW's onboard GPS (same group as Audi) actually says "you have reached your destination" when passing in front of the destination.
But I suppose it will probably start scanning the road for parking spots like in the auto park feature that exists for years like in this demo from a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt20UnkmkLI
As described the feature seems only to be for highways, so I guess it can only go straight / no turns. Most likely route guidance will tell the system that you need to take control before the required exit.
I find comparison tests, like this one from last year, far more useful than marketing or discussion of "levels": http://www.caranddriver.com/features/semi-autonomous-cars-co.... tl;dr: Tesla's autopilot was substantially better than BMW, Infiniti, and Mercedes.
Sounds like a feature my Volvo XC-90 already has. Up to 35 MPH it can follow traffic in a traffic jam. If it gets confused it beeps and tells me I need to steer. I use it all the time, I love it! And it's a 1 year old car. I can only imagine what Volvo will have once the new Audi comes out.
And I'm saying that as an Audi fan. My other car is an A4.
It's likely to be Sony, the VAG (owner of Audi, VW. Skoda, Seat, etc) has been working with Sony for many years, and had a Level 4 autonomous vehicle prototype in 2008.
The new A8 looks quite a bit like the new Lincoln Continental. If you integrated the door handles on the A8 with the window trim, it'd be hard to distinguish between the two cars from an appreciable distance - at least the rear, profile, and 3/4 views. The rear light arrangement, the integrated dual exhaust ports, the silver trim character lines, even the A/B/C columns.
The system as described is considerably weaker than what my previous generation Model S actually does. On a highway with a barrier and traffic I can basically leave autopilot engaged indefinitely without having to correct it. Perhaps Audi handles a wider variety of weather conditions?
That's the Tesla "self-crashing car" feature. Watch these videos.[1] Teslas will run into a clearly visible obstacle partially obstructing the lane.
Tesla is a level 2 system with inadequate safety interlocks and crappy obstacle detection.
My (limited) understanding is that a Level-3 system will sound an alarm, and tell you take control, if it sees something unexpected, such as a truck stopped in the middle of the highway ahead. Whereas the Tesla expects you, rather than the system, to monitor roadway conditions ahead and decide whether to take control.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Tesla has traffic aware adaptive cruise control and active lane keeping. Audi has those too, but this article is about their new traffic jam assist that allows the driver to completely hand over the responsibility for driving and monitoring the environment to the car. Which is not a function Tesla has. At all.
Beyond the up-to 37mph "self-driving" I'm very sure the car also supports all the already available driver-assistance features (adaptive cruise control, lane assist, etc.) up to much higher speeds. Compared to the self-driving feature the lane-assist will bug you once you take your hands of the wheel for more than 10-30 seconds, and they require the driver to be able to always immediately take over control, because the manufacturer doesn't deem them as safe for real self-driving without human intervention. This is more comparable to what Tesla currently offers from my understanding, even though Tesla markets this more aggressively ("Autopilot").
This article is about a traffic jam assist that is robust enough that the driver doesn't need to pay attention at all. The Tesla S can't do this. Audi have lane keep and ACC as well, just like Tesla, but that's not what we are discussing here.
I have never learned to drive and I don't plan to learn it anytime soon, unless I move to somewhere with abysmal public transport for some reason.
Of course it all depends on your personal mobility habits and where you live, but in many big cities, you can absolutely get by without ever sitting in a car.
Tesla fanboy here. It's a little silly to say "Our car is level 3 autonomy, but only when it comes to market sometimes next year." By then Tesla could be level 3 autonomy, as all that's required to achieve that is for Elon to push some software updates and voila, the car is now smarter than ever. Being capable of something in theory doesn't make it a practical statement, imo.
Tesla's in-house Autopilot 2 has a lot of catching up to do with Autopilot 1, which was developed by MobilEye.
I like their startup-ish approach which enables them to push software updates to all their cars and collect valuable data, but I feel most people do fundamentally not understand that their cars offer at best Level 2 autonomy.
On a side note, if and when LIDAR becomes cheap enough, Tesla may change their mind and look at integrating it in their cars.
Got a ton on flame for this post. Probably should've avoided "Tesla fanboy" part. Lesson learned.
But look, if you reference other articles, Audi can only do self-driving when: "In slow-moving traffic on divided highways at speeds of 37.3 mph and under only. " (TechCrunch).
Tesla can already do that. It simply require the driver to keep hands on the steering because it also allows for all the other options, and Tesla doesn't want you to let go of the wheel and run over a human.
Note that Audi isn not saying their car will do self-driving in the city, with pedestrians throwing themselves onto the road. NO, it will ONLY do it on highways, while in slow traffic. So Audi can only do self-driving when the car is barely in motion and the possibility of interference is close to zero.
That's like calling yourself a University Professor because you wear a checkered jacket with elbow patches.
apexalpha|8 years ago
I always chuckled a bit when (tech) press would say 'Google has beaten auto manufacturers' after Google released some PR videoclip of them showing a car driving.
European car companies just don't see the need to enlighten the world about what they're up to, how they are progressing, but simply work until it's finished for production and then unveil it.
Still haven't seen that 'vastly superiour' super-car from Google and Apple everyone claimed were coming to take over.
Tesla does seem to succesfully run their company as a tech start-up: hyping new products that are 1 or 2 year from being in production, personification of the brand via the CEO god-status, continuous deliviry of software updates to cars, public beta testing etc..
I am rooting for Tesla, I hope they find the capability to increase production levels to something that comes near of the existing car giants.
criley2|8 years ago
Lame! Vaporware!
"Audi releases a press-release, no video, no demonstration, no real-world evidence"
European manufacturers sure are capable and know what they're doing! What a refreshing change!
TulliusCicero|8 years ago
Being able to self-drive on highways with physical barriers between oncoming traffic is, like, the easiest use case for self-driving cars. This doesn't very advanced to me at all. Urban driving is the actual hard part.
thirdsun|8 years ago
While I also want to see european car makers tackling these challenges, how is the posted report different from a fluff piece about Google's experiments? Other than the lack of a video demonstration.
At this point Audi's announcement sounds like a bunch of over-promised, ambitious claims with a high potential of turning into vaporware. I might be wrong and all of it is very real and working, but you can't come to that conclusion by reading that article alone.
deanCommie|8 years ago
And by all indications they are succeeding - the roadblock is regulations and turning it into a consumer product. The tech is there.
mxschumacher|8 years ago
saturdaysaint|8 years ago
I agree that there's some genuinely impressive and underrated stuff hitting the market from many manufacturers (even in sub-luxury brands), but Tesla has a real and formidable advantage in the amount of data they're collecting.
Shivetya|8 years ago
because of their innate audience they don't need to make spectacular announcements to generate interest. companies without large established bases in the field do. Tesla is special in that they have a CEO who doesn't seem to have an off switch. However this is not always a positive but they still manage to handle it well.
The 3 will be an interesting car but still highly limited with regards to what many expect cars to do but EVs are still a very young technology. Autonomous driving is where the real money is, it can be applied easily to many types of vehicles, don't over look the usage of similar tech on the mundane like mobility scooters or similar
Fricken|8 years ago
justin66|8 years ago
I certainly appreciate Volvo letting the world know what they're doing to test autonomous cars. I'm glad European carmakers don't work the way you're saying they do.
linsomniac|8 years ago
The headline sounds good, but the details are that it only works on highways, up to 38MPH, and won't be enabled right away; they are going to roll it out later. The one notable thing seems to be that you can be stuck in traffic and take your hands off the wheel, unlike Tesla where you have to have your hands on the wheel.
I'm not sure how they call this "first", since it won't be on new cars released next year, until after some future software update, how is this different from Tesla that is already shipping cars that can do this and more with a software update?
Full disclosure: in Dec I sold my Audi A8 to get a Model S.
Currently, the Model S can basically drive itself in heavy traffic, but it will periodically want your hand(s) on the wheel. I recently was in stop and go traffic on a 2 lane road for an hour and the Tesla did great. The A8 won't be able to there, it won't work on anything but a divided highway which this was not.
Don't get me wrong, I've had 5 Audis over the years and have loved them. But this really isn't "news", Audi is still playing catch up.
Oh, and from the testing I've done this winter, the Tesla AWD system is at least as good as quattro. Probably better.
vvanders|8 years ago
Also WRT snow performance Telsa has a pretty large advantage over any ICE since they can apply different torque amounts to each wheel in near sub 1ms timeframe due to two factors:
1. Lower rotating mass(you only have stator, axle and wheels in the physical drivetrain. 2. FETs respond much faster than an internal combustion engine.
We got a fair bit of snow a while back and even without dedicated winter tires I was incredibly impressed with the snow/ice handling. Much better than our Subaru by a long shot. You can still get yourself into trouble but it was much harder to overcorrect than on our ICE.
rsync|8 years ago
This press release, like all high end / performance car press releases of the last 2-3 years, can be summed up as:
"blah blah, not electric, blah blah"
Like you, I am an ex-A8 owner who loved (loved!) those cars and have no interest in buying another one - no matter how nice or feature filled or well-designed they are. There's no way they don't know this and it becomes more and more stupefying that they cede this highest-of-margins segment to Tesla.
"Oh, and from the testing I've done this winter, the Tesla AWD system is at least as good as quattro. Probably better."
Exactly - it has two motors.
My disappointment is wide and deep as the major manufacturers continue to refuse to make a modern car. However it is Audi and Volvo in particular whose inaction is truly mind-blowing. Audi because they could continue to own AWD/4WD and volvo because their target market is ripe for the aesthetic and social benefits of electric cars.
Instead, Audi has spent ten years going down the "in 2-3 years we'll have an electric platform" and volvo has committed to a shitty-hybrids-with-lawnmower-engines-inside platform for the next 8-10 years.
dosshell|8 years ago
Often when I see a big project come to an end I can not stop thinking about all the hours work put into something which didn't made it to the end. Features they had to abandon or wait with until next revision.
Im very curious how good it will work and will try to get the hands on it as quickly as possible. :)
neilwilson|8 years ago
Probably going to turn out to be the most dangerous.
I am planning on dying in my sleep, but not because a Level 3 autonomous car decided to throw a "Can't handle reality" exception.
(This somewhat tongue in cheek response should in no way be read as denigrating the awesome technical achievement Level 3 represents. All speed to Level 4 and Level 5)
tim333|8 years ago
t0mbstone|8 years ago
metaphor|8 years ago
Table 2 on p. 19 of the 30-page recommendation is a nice TL;DR summary.
Which begs the question...what part of Tesla Autopilot doesn't satisfy the SAE definition?
[1] http://standards.sae.org/j3016_201609/
JumpCrisscross|8 years ago
http://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/levels-of-...
Frogolocalypse|8 years ago
Broken_Hippo|8 years ago
skoocda|8 years ago
What this system does is utilize the front cameras to scan and map the road surface ahead. It can then apply up to 20 kN of force via electric motors to raise or lower the wheels individually. This mitigates bumps from potholes or uneven roads, which, apart from being more comfortable, will also ensure the suspension lasts longer. This system also decreases body roll during turns, and squat / dive under accel / decel. All of it is powered by the 48V semi-hybrid electric system. Expect this to become much more commonplace with further electrification.
Mercedes has a similar technology called Magic Body Control, but it can only tighten or loosen the dampeners, rather than directly move the wheels. What the Audi system can do, which the Merc cannot, is to raise the side of the car during an impending t-bone collision, which allows the main body structure to take the impact instead of the doors.
mercer|8 years ago
skywhopper|8 years ago
Calling it "level 3 autonomy" is misleading as well, given how highly constrained the situations are in which it can operate at level 3. From what I can tell from the press release, it only promises that the car can handle a freeway traffic-jam situation, ie, it knows how to stay in a lane and not hit anyone when traffic is crawling on a freeway.
Admittedly such a system would be nice for millions of people who commute through such conditions daily, but that is probably one of the easiest tasks for an autonomous system to perform because huge amounts of complexity can be ignored: pedestrians, cyclists, intersections, road hazards, trip routing. This is a baby step taken at the edge of a huge chasm. Good luck!
t0mbstone|8 years ago
andmarios|8 years ago
I know the HN crowd is very pro-Tesla but do not underestimate traditional car-makers.
zwily|8 years ago
Lio|8 years ago
I think it uses RADAR instead of LIDAR but I don't know for sure.
Could any explain what the new A8 is offering in addition to the Golf?
fernly|8 years ago
patd|8 years ago
But I suppose it will probably start scanning the road for parking spots like in the auto park feature that exists for years like in this demo from a few years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt20UnkmkLI
Matthias247|8 years ago
jimmcslim|8 years ago
And also:
"The traffic jam pilot only works on highways with a physical barrier separating oncoming traffic."
moomin|8 years ago
saturdaysaint|8 years ago
martinmusio7|8 years ago
suprfnk|8 years ago
throwaway2016a|8 years ago
And I'm saying that as an Audi fan. My other car is an A4.
WhiteSource1|8 years ago
Ambroos|8 years ago
In short: - MobilEye EyeQ3 - Nvidia K1 - an Altera Cyclone FPGA - an Infineon Aurix microcontroller
Each is used for a few different functions.
kuschku|8 years ago
iplaw|8 years ago
A8: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/1--FKfJ3y71OTTYIz91rno4mYNs=...
Continental: https://www.cstatic-images.com/stock/1170x1170/99/img-122263...
doener|8 years ago
yalogin|8 years ago
zwily|8 years ago
skgoa|8 years ago
jsolson|8 years ago
Animats|8 years ago
[1] http://autoweek.com/article/autonomous-cars/tesla-model-s-au...
my_first_acct|8 years ago
skgoa|8 years ago
sschueller|8 years ago
0xCMP|8 years ago
anton69|8 years ago
omarforgotpwd|8 years ago
Matthias247|8 years ago
skgoa|8 years ago
coldtea|8 years ago
ex3ndr|8 years ago
shimon_e|8 years ago
yorwba|8 years ago
Of course it all depends on your personal mobility habits and where you live, but in many big cities, you can absolutely get by without ever sitting in a car.
kamaal|8 years ago
These are just better traction control systems, with some accident detection and avoidance thrown in. Nothing much.
You will still do bulk of the work.
Frogolocalypse|8 years ago
aaroninsf|8 years ago
[deleted]
cowardlydragon|8 years ago
[deleted]
unknown|8 years ago
[deleted]
grecy|8 years ago
> when it goes on sale next year
> The traffic jam pilot only works on highways with a physical barrier separating oncoming traffic
>Audi says it is rolling out this feature “gradually,”
I applaud the development and effort, though I have had enough of people claiming to be first at things that are not yet possible to buy and use.
kirillzubovsky|8 years ago
gamblor956|8 years ago
edshiro|8 years ago
I like their startup-ish approach which enables them to push software updates to all their cars and collect valuable data, but I feel most people do fundamentally not understand that their cars offer at best Level 2 autonomy.
On a side note, if and when LIDAR becomes cheap enough, Tesla may change their mind and look at integrating it in their cars.
skgoa|8 years ago
kirillzubovsky|8 years ago
But look, if you reference other articles, Audi can only do self-driving when: "In slow-moving traffic on divided highways at speeds of 37.3 mph and under only. " (TechCrunch).
Tesla can already do that. It simply require the driver to keep hands on the steering because it also allows for all the other options, and Tesla doesn't want you to let go of the wheel and run over a human.
Note that Audi isn not saying their car will do self-driving in the city, with pedestrians throwing themselves onto the road. NO, it will ONLY do it on highways, while in slow traffic. So Audi can only do self-driving when the car is barely in motion and the possibility of interference is close to zero.
That's like calling yourself a University Professor because you wear a checkered jacket with elbow patches.
hobofan|8 years ago
Not everything regarding Tesla is about Elon.
legulere|8 years ago