Model F buckling springs were still a cost-reduced inferior replacement for beam springs¹, which themselves were a decent but imperfect attempt to imitate the best key feel in the history of the universe, the Selectric.
Edit: It's not entirely correct to blame cost-reduction alone for the end of the beam springs. ISO 9241 killed the existing beam spring switches, and making the replacements equally good (or better — they did suffer from wobble) would have been expensive.
The original title is pretty clickbaity (which, I suppose, is fitting). The switches are great, but so long as your arms are forced together as they are by most keyboards, you are still doing untold damage to your upper body. I'll stick with my Kinesis Advantage.
I appreciate the effort that people are putting into the switches themselves, but agreed, updating the layout is where the real gains are found. I've used Kinesis keyboards for 20 years--I now own four of them of various vintage--and I'm surprised they never found broader adoption. There's so many benefits:
- Key well is cupped so all key rows are near-equal distance; you don't need to move your hand around.
- Key columns are vertical, no angular stretches for your fingers.
- Modifiers are right under your thumbs, no hand movement required. Emacs users rejoice!
- You can remap those keys under your thumbs. I remapped one to control-space ("set mark" in emacs), which is lovely.
Adaptation really isn't that hard. Unlike "big" changes such as switching to Dvorak layout, adapting to the Kinesis Advantage doesn't take much training. It took me about 2 weeks to get back to speed, and much of that was because I was a sloppy typist when I switched. (The Kinesis pretty much forces you to touch type correctly.) By contrast, switching to Dvorak took me about 2 months.
EDIT: for completeness, a couple disadvantages of the Kinesis: 1) Escape key is not mechanical, it's on a row of gummy-feeling function keys. vi/vim users will probably want to remap one of the thumb keys to escape. 2) It's not great for gaming, I still use a traditional-layout mechanical keyboard for games.
It really is amazing how much of a difference that contour style makes - I picked one up for long stretches of coding when I otherwise tend to develop "hunched-over-the-computer" syndrome. The pressure relief on the chest and shoulders is immense and it's hard not to have good posture when using it. It was so effective that I don't even need it anymore (is that ironic?), except now and then when sitting at a desk all day starts to feel uncomfortable.
I use a Kinesis Freestyle, but yeah I agree. It's hard to overstate how much better my wrists, elbows and shoulders feel after switching to a split keyboard years ago.
Am I the only one who never liked those clicky, long-throw mechanical keyboards? I much prefer the very short throws of laptop-style keyboards, particularly the Logitech K750.
That's not to say I like mushy keys. I just don't like having to press very hard or very far for a keystroke to register.
I hate laptop keyboards; I'd prefer a mushy keyboard over those. They always have an abnormally high activation weight for their throw, and the impact of my fingers bottoming out so rapidly (due to the force to overcome the butterfly mechanism) makes my fingers ache. Especially since it's happening dozens of times a minute for each finger. At least a mushy keyboard will cushion that impact somewhat.
With a long throw mechanical keyboard, however, the activation weight comes in much more gradually, and you don't need to bottom out the keys to get that activation.
Of course, more recent laptop keyboards which don't really have much of a throw (thinking the newest apple ones here) are a bit easier on the fingers, but the pressure required to activate them, and the lack of tactile feedback (but you still get the annoying audible click) makes life a lot less enjoyable to type on.
I personally swear by Cherry MX Blue, which take very little force to activate. Onc you get the hang of pressing them just enough to have the press register (i.e. Just enough for the tactile feedback) and definitely not bottom them out, it feels almost like your fingers aren't moving at all. It's very comfortable IMHO.
I don't like any high force keys and I don't like keys that basically always bottom out. I feel bad for my fingers just thinking about it. (And I haaate the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboards)
Nope. I've used Model M keyboards for a loooong time and I think they're highly overrated. Loud as hell and really fatigue your fingers. Cherry MX switches really are better.
Half agree. Ultimately not a huge fan of Model M style mechanicals, despite owning a couple - an original M from circa 1989 and a newer USB Lexmark. They're good, better than cheapies, but the throw is longer than I'd like.
Lately (last 2 years or so) I've been using a nice Topre board. It's the best of all worlds for me. Travel is moderate (certainly not laptop short, which I detest), but shortish and predictable. Force is low, and mechanically it's very good (no key wobble or anything like that). Basically imagine a perfect rubber dome keyboard, and it'll last forever.
I am with you. It's funny, right now I have two keyboards in front of me, a Razer Blackwidow mech for Windows/gaming and a K750 for work on the mac. For work I much prefer the K750.
Have you really tried them? For me, mechanical keyboards are among those things in the category "You don't know what you're missing but once you know, you can't go back." Like heroin, I guess. Buckling spring probably not, but maybe some Cherry switch would be just the right thing for you. Anyway, before I got my Unicomp I had no idea how bad other keyboards were, especially laptop keyboards.
Coincidentally, I've retired my Unicomp yesterday to save desk space in exchange for a Pok3r with Cherry blue switches. It's one of the few mechanical "hipster" keyboards that allow you to put Ctrl next to the "a" letter, where it belongs. (HHKB has this built-in, but it's just too expensive. And it's also not programmable.) Unfortunately, the Pok3r has one disadvantage: When you set CapsLock to Ctrl and L_Ctrl to Fn, then Fn+Ctrl key combos don't work properly. So I'll have to change Paredit keybindings in Emacs. :/
It's a pity that Unicomp doesn't produce a tenkeyless keyboard.
I agree with you for the most part but I did find that Iw as often not fully activating keys on my keyboard for games like dota... also I had a wireless split that I loved and it was 50/50 on if it was the keyboard not activating or the keyboard being disconnected. So I switched to a blackwidow wired... now I know when the keys complete their circuit and my gaming got better.
I did start liking them a bit more in a movie / show off way when I really start hammering down on coding so I got one at my desk. I went back to a kinesis mainly due to a wierd issue with the razor not always letting th ePC boot.
So no you're not alone. However I've tried to make it so I can type on pretty much any keyboard since I've had to write full systems on a pull out server rack micro laptop keyboard in notepad before while standing... so I'd rather just not be annoyed by any coniguration as opposed to "can only work 'in my perfect comfort zone'". I also change editors all the time.
No, you are not. I too liked the K750 feel a lot, but ultimately returned it after reading some reviews the rechargeable batteries in it stop taking a charge (some relatively quickly for such an expensive keyboard). I also typed slower on it than others for some reason.
I have determined through a lot of time and money trying at least 25 keyboards over the past year I too like like the flat style like the K750. I bought and tried: Cherry MX Blue/Brown, Some Cheap Cherry clones on Amazon, Various rubber domes like K120/Kensington Keyboard for life/Microsoft 600, Matias Quiet-Click, K800, Razor's, Gaming BS, Vintage Rubber Dome, Etc. Even came close to buying Unicomp Buckling Spring and also even searched the Bay for old versions this article is about (holy grail vintage Model-F) but refuse to spend more for keyboard than a i5 CPU (and the reason I would never buy Topre either).
Mechanical keyboards do feel good and remind me of my youth, but to me are dinosaurs. Big, bulky and noisy. While it is fun to see them making a comeback and popular with the younger gen, I personally don't understand the appeal of them in 2017. Annoy co-workers and people on other end of phone calls. I even woke up my 6yo son with my Cherry Brown one night typing away.
Trying all of these I eventually caught myself sort of missing the low-profile laptop style scissor-switch ones I have tried. I really liked the K800 and K750. K750 I eliminated as mentioned above, the K800 I took back because Logitech purposely disabled key combo's on it and it was a middle finger to anyone who wanted to game on it, even a little.
I think the latest version of the Mac Keyboard with even less travel than the previous one is beyond what I like though. That is TOO little travel and feels like I am just typing on my desk surface. I am thinking of getting the new Surface keyboard as I tried the latest TypeCover and liked the feel.
Each of them have their own advantages. I loved the Model F and M because they were the closest analog to a Selectric which really is a dream to use. Best keyboard on the planet.
The long throw lets you do one thing a short throw won't: you can partially depress a key without triggering it. This is handy if you're thinking. I have to turn off all the stupid handicapped assist/accessibility crap because it'll notice I rest a finger on shift or control while thinking about what to type next.
Yes, the K750 is a great substitute for Apple keyboards when you need to use Windows as well (on non-Apple hardware; the bootcamp drivers Did Not Like that). It has nearly the same feel for me as the standalone Apple keyboard, and was where I settled after years of buying keyboards in the hopes that this one got it right. The solar-powered wireless aspect is just gravy.
it provides a tactile sensation that I personally enjoy.
I find it similar to loading a gun, or shifting a manual transmission, or attaching a lens on an SLR style camera, or opening a well-built safe, or opening the door to a heavy luxury sedan.
There is some sort of mechanical response and feedback that modern keyboards somehow lack. It's hard to describe. Good modern mechanical keyboards come close, though.
I have no delusions that model M style keyboards are superior; I just like the way they feel.
I've bought into the hype and used a blue switch mechanical keyboard for six months, but now I'm switching back to rubber dome/chiclet. Unfortunately I can't type on tall mechanical keyboards and it was killing my wrists. The keys also felt too hard to press for my taste. One of my favourite keyboards right now is Apple full-sized keyboard. I might even buy it for my Windows PC.
Blue Cherry MX switches have a pretty low actuation force: they're lighter than most rubber domes and scissor switches.
If you had wrist pain it sounds like your keyboard is too high indeed, but it's not a tall keyboard that is the issue here (and we're talking about 2-3 cm tall...), lower your desk!
Find a keyboard that has a built-in palm rest - they help you get your hands into the right position. If you can find a "wrist rest" that is made from the heavy open-cell foam (usually with a decorative cloth cover), they're good. The squishy gel-filled ones don't provide enough support.
For rubber-dome switches, look at the Lenovo Preferred Pro USB. For mechanical switches, there's an upcoming model from dasKeyboard (the 5Q) that looks like it'll have one (the prototype in their video doesn't have it, but the product renderings does)
After I accidentally killed my Poker II (no more iced tea near my desk, I learned my lesson), I decided to buy a kit. Very excited to put it all together.
Like beds, people aren't usually willing to spend lots of money on a good keyboard. It's unfortunate, especially considering how much time you spend typing on one. But the moment you start talking mechanical switches, your keyboard is going to be above the hundred dollar mark (knock-offs notwithstanding). Split the keyboard, another two hundred dollars. Throw in something like Soli, and you're looking at a thousand dollar keyboard.
How many people would be willing to pay over a thousand dollars for a good keyboard?
Article is a little misleading... you don't need "extensive modification" to use a Model F keyboard with a modern computer... the Model F AT keyboard can plug directly into a PS/2 port and be used as-is:
This article seems to be about a business that is actually re-engineering the Model F to be more modern... which is certainly interesting and impressive, but the article is a little misleading.
One really nice feature of these keyboards is that they use capacitance sensing to detect when a key is actuated, instead of a matrix of columns and rows, so there is no ghosting effect when multiple keys are pressed. If you disassemble the keyboard you can actually type right on the PCB with your fingers like a touchpad.
If I hadn't just bought a Ergodox EZ I would be all over this. I don't think my wife would forgive me for a month if I bought another keyboard right now. I already owe her decorating her office because of this last one. She doesn't appreciate why my odd keyboards are a critical, work related investment.
The Model F only registers key down events, and can't report a key-up. I don't want that ever again. Unlike many other aspects of old computer peripherals and designs, there's no tangible advantage to this limitation.
My first PC was an IBM PC/AT, complete with original Model M keyboard (model F is the same, but more compact). I remember it well; I'd say it is somewhat overrated. Activation force threshold is too high; it is LOUD (and even if it doesn't bother you, the sound itself starts to be pretty annoying after 2-3 weeks), etc.
Designing a good keyboard is a subtle art. I still prefer mechanicals, but I haven't found anything that worked perfectly for me.
My favourite as well. I have one on my desk here. (It was £17 on eBay a few years ago. The USB converter for it was a lot more expensive than the keyboard.)
There's a problem though. The Type-5 used to be one of the quieter workstation keyboards, and it's far less noisy than a Model M, but the flat keyboards of today are so much quieter than any of those used to be that I can no longer use it in an open plan office without feeling conspicuous. I'm not sure whether it does annoy my colleagues (they are very polite) but I do feel uncomfortable about it and as a consequence it doesn't get as much use as I might like.
Personally, I still have two spare Model M's (I had three but one died in an accident involving hot coffee), but even among the model M's there are different constructions, the older ones with detachable cable are much better (and heavier) than a few more modern ones (still original IBM model M's) I have seen.
I really love my Model M. Unfortunately, the cable is rotten and the small manufacturer doesn't deliver it to Brazil. Buying a new one would be weird since Brazil standard keyboard is the only one that puts 14 keys in the row above the space bar. Now I have 3 unused Model M in my house. Very sad :-(
If you look under the shift keys, there are spacers in the spots where the extra keys would go. The pad is actually active under it. So what you can do is pop the plastic rivets that hold the metal back plate on to the plastic frame, and replace them with small screws/nuts (do a google search for "Model M bolt modification").
Once you get it apart, you can take out the spacers, and replace it with pivot plates, then you can put an appropriate key in the spot (from a dead keyboard, for example).
If the Brazilian Model M uses the same cable as the US Model M then I'd be happy to send a cable your way. Feel free to reach out if you're interested (email's in my profile) and we can confirm whether the cables match.
I can't think of a more productive way to annoy your coworkers! I kid...
But really! My first computer was an XT, than an AT. At the time, I could type faster than the screen could scroll! I'd like to think part of that was that awesome DIN connector keyboard!
[+] [-] kps|8 years ago|reply
¹ https://deskthority.net/wiki/Beam_spring
Edit: It's not entirely correct to blame cost-reduction alone for the end of the beam springs. ISO 9241 killed the existing beam spring switches, and making the replacements equally good (or better — they did suffer from wobble) would have been expensive.
[+] [-] type0|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flavio81|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] efm|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cholantesh|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jdcarter|8 years ago|reply
- Key well is cupped so all key rows are near-equal distance; you don't need to move your hand around.
- Key columns are vertical, no angular stretches for your fingers.
- Modifiers are right under your thumbs, no hand movement required. Emacs users rejoice!
- You can remap those keys under your thumbs. I remapped one to control-space ("set mark" in emacs), which is lovely.
Adaptation really isn't that hard. Unlike "big" changes such as switching to Dvorak layout, adapting to the Kinesis Advantage doesn't take much training. It took me about 2 weeks to get back to speed, and much of that was because I was a sloppy typist when I switched. (The Kinesis pretty much forces you to touch type correctly.) By contrast, switching to Dvorak took me about 2 months.
EDIT: for completeness, a couple disadvantages of the Kinesis: 1) Escape key is not mechanical, it's on a row of gummy-feeling function keys. vi/vim users will probably want to remap one of the thumb keys to escape. 2) It's not great for gaming, I still use a traditional-layout mechanical keyboard for games.
[+] [-] dwringer|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] randlet|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] teuobk|8 years ago|reply
That's not to say I like mushy keys. I just don't like having to press very hard or very far for a keystroke to register.
[+] [-] falcolas|8 years ago|reply
I hate laptop keyboards; I'd prefer a mushy keyboard over those. They always have an abnormally high activation weight for their throw, and the impact of my fingers bottoming out so rapidly (due to the force to overcome the butterfly mechanism) makes my fingers ache. Especially since it's happening dozens of times a minute for each finger. At least a mushy keyboard will cushion that impact somewhat.
With a long throw mechanical keyboard, however, the activation weight comes in much more gradually, and you don't need to bottom out the keys to get that activation.
Of course, more recent laptop keyboards which don't really have much of a throw (thinking the newest apple ones here) are a bit easier on the fingers, but the pressure required to activate them, and the lack of tactile feedback (but you still get the annoying audible click) makes life a lot less enjoyable to type on.
[+] [-] dkersten|8 years ago|reply
I don't like any high force keys and I don't like keys that basically always bottom out. I feel bad for my fingers just thinking about it. (And I haaate the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboards)
[+] [-] xienze|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TylerE|8 years ago|reply
Lately (last 2 years or so) I've been using a nice Topre board. It's the best of all worlds for me. Travel is moderate (certainly not laptop short, which I detest), but shortish and predictable. Force is low, and mechanically it's very good (no key wobble or anything like that). Basically imagine a perfect rubber dome keyboard, and it'll last forever.
This is the keyboard I use: https://www.amazon.com/Realforce-Keyboard-English-Layout-Xf0...
[+] [-] softawre|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JohnStrange|8 years ago|reply
Coincidentally, I've retired my Unicomp yesterday to save desk space in exchange for a Pok3r with Cherry blue switches. It's one of the few mechanical "hipster" keyboards that allow you to put Ctrl next to the "a" letter, where it belongs. (HHKB has this built-in, but it's just too expensive. And it's also not programmable.) Unfortunately, the Pok3r has one disadvantage: When you set CapsLock to Ctrl and L_Ctrl to Fn, then Fn+Ctrl key combos don't work properly. So I'll have to change Paredit keybindings in Emacs. :/
It's a pity that Unicomp doesn't produce a tenkeyless keyboard.
[+] [-] grogenaut|8 years ago|reply
I did start liking them a bit more in a movie / show off way when I really start hammering down on coding so I got one at my desk. I went back to a kinesis mainly due to a wierd issue with the razor not always letting th ePC boot.
So no you're not alone. However I've tried to make it so I can type on pretty much any keyboard since I've had to write full systems on a pull out server rack micro laptop keyboard in notepad before while standing... so I'd rather just not be annoyed by any coniguration as opposed to "can only work 'in my perfect comfort zone'". I also change editors all the time.
[+] [-] Scottn1|8 years ago|reply
I have determined through a lot of time and money trying at least 25 keyboards over the past year I too like like the flat style like the K750. I bought and tried: Cherry MX Blue/Brown, Some Cheap Cherry clones on Amazon, Various rubber domes like K120/Kensington Keyboard for life/Microsoft 600, Matias Quiet-Click, K800, Razor's, Gaming BS, Vintage Rubber Dome, Etc. Even came close to buying Unicomp Buckling Spring and also even searched the Bay for old versions this article is about (holy grail vintage Model-F) but refuse to spend more for keyboard than a i5 CPU (and the reason I would never buy Topre either).
Mechanical keyboards do feel good and remind me of my youth, but to me are dinosaurs. Big, bulky and noisy. While it is fun to see them making a comeback and popular with the younger gen, I personally don't understand the appeal of them in 2017. Annoy co-workers and people on other end of phone calls. I even woke up my 6yo son with my Cherry Brown one night typing away.
Trying all of these I eventually caught myself sort of missing the low-profile laptop style scissor-switch ones I have tried. I really liked the K800 and K750. K750 I eliminated as mentioned above, the K800 I took back because Logitech purposely disabled key combo's on it and it was a middle finger to anyone who wanted to game on it, even a little.
I think the latest version of the Mac Keyboard with even less travel than the previous one is beyond what I like though. That is TOO little travel and feels like I am just typing on my desk surface. I am thinking of getting the new Surface keyboard as I tried the latest TypeCover and liked the feel.
[+] [-] technofiend|8 years ago|reply
The long throw lets you do one thing a short throw won't: you can partially depress a key without triggering it. This is handy if you're thinking. I have to turn off all the stupid handicapped assist/accessibility crap because it'll notice I rest a finger on shift or control while thinking about what to type next.
[+] [-] randallsquared|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] serf|8 years ago|reply
I find it similar to loading a gun, or shifting a manual transmission, or attaching a lens on an SLR style camera, or opening a well-built safe, or opening the door to a heavy luxury sedan.
There is some sort of mechanical response and feedback that modern keyboards somehow lack. It's hard to describe. Good modern mechanical keyboards come close, though.
I have no delusions that model M style keyboards are superior; I just like the way they feel.
[+] [-] FRex|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arethuza|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] syphilis2|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lumberjack|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sjm|8 years ago|reply
[0]: https://www.pckeyboard.com
[+] [-] skocznymroczny|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hocuspocus|8 years ago|reply
If you had wrist pain it sounds like your keyboard is too high indeed, but it's not a tall keyboard that is the issue here (and we're talking about 2-3 cm tall...), lower your desk!
[+] [-] chiph|8 years ago|reply
For rubber-dome switches, look at the Lenovo Preferred Pro USB. For mechanical switches, there's an upcoming model from dasKeyboard (the 5Q) that looks like it'll have one (the prototype in their video doesn't have it, but the product renderings does)
[+] [-] mamcx|8 years ago|reply
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/
---
I'm already building a pseudo-MS Ergo keyboard, waiting for the plates.
[+] [-] Elvewyn|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] melling|8 years ago|reply
https://shop.keyboard.io
Tenting capable?
Add a Soli chip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QNiZfSsPc0
[+] [-] falcolas|8 years ago|reply
How many people would be willing to pay over a thousand dollars for a good keyboard?
[+] [-] cholantesh|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zevv|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bcg1|8 years ago|reply
https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Model_F#IBM_Personal_Comput...
This article seems to be about a business that is actually re-engineering the Model F to be more modern... which is certainly interesting and impressive, but the article is a little misleading.
One really nice feature of these keyboards is that they use capacitance sensing to detect when a key is actuated, instead of a matrix of columns and rows, so there is no ghosting effect when multiple keys are pressed. If you disassemble the keyboard you can actually type right on the PCB with your fingers like a touchpad.
[+] [-] rietta|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikejmoffitt|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] atemerev|8 years ago|reply
Designing a good keyboard is a subtle art. I still prefer mechanicals, but I haven't found anything that worked perfectly for me.
[+] [-] amelius|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cannam|8 years ago|reply
There's a problem though. The Type-5 used to be one of the quieter workstation keyboards, and it's far less noisy than a Model M, but the flat keyboards of today are so much quieter than any of those used to be that I can no longer use it in an open plan office without feeling conspicuous. I'm not sure whether it does annoy my colleagues (they are very polite) but I do feel uncomfortable about it and as a consequence it doesn't get as much use as I might like.
[+] [-] jaclaz|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neves|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] derekp7|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unguku|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] exabrial|8 years ago|reply
But really! My first computer was an XT, than an AT. At the time, I could type faster than the screen could scroll! I'd like to think part of that was that awesome DIN connector keyboard!
[+] [-] rietta|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] velebak|8 years ago|reply
All they brought back was a zinc case?
[+] [-] gcoda|8 years ago|reply
"Ortholinear" are not problematic for casual typists, and makes typing with all 10 fingers a lot easier.
[+] [-] fimdomeio|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] takleizo|8 years ago|reply