Being alone and hiking and camping in the wilderness without human contact for longer period can be amazing experience. There can be initial anxiety and intense desire to go back after romance goes away and your internal shit comes to light. When there is constant need for do chores to survive but also free time and no human contact, no books, radio or music, mind gradually settles into itself.
It's like coming from bright light into a dark room. Gradually your eyes adjust and you start to see more. Coming back into the civilization is similar to someone pointing flashlight into your eyes. So much external triggers for behaviour. Realizing that I'm not actually me with other people and I'm disappearing into network of others. Me with others is mainly just bunch of triggers that fire based on conditioning.
If I can feel intense otherworldliness from just week or month alone, I imagine that if someone spends decades alone, civilization might seem like miserable alien ant colony. Everybody is responding to commands from others and carrying stuff they don't care about.
ps. It also can trigger psycosis, panic or some kind of madness (prairie fever, cabin fever) in some people. Romanticizing it as escape from all your problems might give people the wrong idea.
There's a TV series "Alone" where they drop people off in the remote woods (far from each other) and the person that can survive the longest by themselves wins $500k.
As the season goes on, you can see a clear decline in the mental health of many of the contestants. Many drop out just out of sheer boredom or loneliness, even though they have decent shelter and can find food. The winners usually last about 2-3 months alone.
Your mention of going from bright light to a dark room is literally my current working life. I shoot cameras for image quality, which often necessitates a dark room. I've come to prefer the room dark even when I'm not shooting. The past few weeks of where I live, the outdoors has been rather bright... so leaving the lab room dark has become even more attractive.
About two months ago I went to the eye doctor with the last free spot on his schedule, the first one in the morning. I inquired to his booking. "Oh, I've had some people cancel because it's a nice summer day. They have better things to do than be in a dark room all day." I thought, 'Dude, you have no idea what I do for money right now." He's on wetware, I'm on hardware, we're both -- obviously through keeping the job out of our own volition -- enjoying doing the same job.
I know the feeling you are talking about but I don't think that you're any less you when you're around people and external stimuli, you're just the you that are when you are around people and external stimuli. No more or less you than the you that you are when you are alone, just different.
1) the contrast metaphor is apt
2) the social conditioning too
I am subject to the social conditioned trigger, that's why I avoid people, I feel like a liar, it's unbearable. In my previous job, I was shifted off 1 hour such that when people left at 6pm I had one hour of empty floor to work. The minute the last one leaves, my brain expands and I feel like a butterfly.
Also I can't stay with people because I suspect they also feel this but are still believing in society and thus try to play that absurd game even if they rot inside. Finding disguised ways to escape. I don't want to be there to ask them if they're sad, or worse if they try to lie. I don't have the energy to amort this kind of interaction right now.
I often wish leaving in a remote place with enough space to grow some fruit and veggies and then run and read. But ... I also remember that odd feeling when running cross country far from any familiar place. The woods got me hyper focused, borderline paranoid. I felt deep paranoia before (mugged 3x in a row) but this was different because it came rapidly but not violently. It felt like my reptilian brain was waking up. I didn't like that as much as a I did.. because the density of awareness was refreshing, every sensation became more focused. Sounds of the leaves, the movement of branches .. because I wanted to make sense of a foreign environment and it felt important for my safety, my mind started to tune up to everything without a feeling of drag. I also read people (reddit threads) living in the woods having frightening encounters so .. I'm not sure what I'll do.
ps: about 1), I feel that western modern society is all about raising the contrast on everything, but when everything is bright.. you actually lose something.
I think you're correct in that people do romanticize it a lot. Regardless of whether going outdoors is actually running away from your problems or not, it does provide a refreshing break from human society, as you so elegantly described it. Sometimes, shit happens and life feels rather worthless... but these experiences can act as anchors of sanity, a reminder of the amazing beauty of nature that will continue to be there regardless of what we do, what terrible circumstances we face etc.
That was quite beautifully explained. I think I feel all of that to a smaller extent if I just turn off all my devices and let myself be alone with my thoughts for a while.
Where do you learn the outdoor and craftmanship skills you'd need to survive on your own in the woods? Lots of backpacking trips with more experienced people?
It baffles me that people think it's so shockingly outlandish that there are people who don't reactionarily buy into the tribalistic pressures around us to simply act like everyone else. Humanity is not homogeneous, yet some notions like these are always projected out to be considered an immutable, inescapable constant. I can only guess that's that same fear of being different shining through.
I presume that on sites like this, there's a higher percentage of people who attempt to be more intentionally decisive about themselves and their lives. We don't necessarily have to toss out everything like Knight did, but looking at life and all the weird social rituals and expectations built up, the dichotomy between those and what seems actually beneficial becomes apparent. That conflict causes a choice, we would seek to do the "better" thing, and that draws many people outside the superficial social norms.
I especially bristle at this quote: "Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see." Anybody who tries to intentionally better themselves knows what's down there. You have to assess what you are if you're going to change. Sure, you can deny and hide from all that and simply find comfort in floating along with everybody else in social inertia, but that seems to me to be a shameful waste of those conceptual abilities which (apparently) make us uniquely human.
> buy into the tribalistic pressures around us to simply act like everyone else
Does anyone else appreciate the delicious irony that parent is hitting all the right notes for an appeal to the tribe while at the same time criticizing tribalism?
1. Establish an 'us' vs. 'them' distinction ('I presume on sites like this')
2. Subtly denigrating outsiders ('draws many people outside the superficial social norms.')
3. Establishing higher common values ('That conflict causes a choice, we would seek to do the "better" thing')
Trying to be original, individualistic, and nonconformist what everyone is taught in the US from an early age.
There are very real evolutionary pressure on humans to be social and pliant and buy into the notion that society is a net good, whether it be a tribal one or a more modern version. Just think about it: the outliers get ostracized and more often than not don't pass on their genes to the next generation. Until very recently, we had extremely tribal behavior among human societies as well. So it makes sense that most people still naturally think its kinda outlandish to not want to be a part of society or take part in its rituals.
I can't express how glad I feel though, that I am living in an age and country where not being socially pliant isn't something that would get me killed. Where I can continue to live my life the way that I want to, rather than buy into social norms and regulations, many of which seem rather anachronistic.
I have the impulse to become a hermit myself, fundamentally because I'm tired of living up to other people's ideologies: going through schools and finding a job in a cubical. getting married at the right age and then raising the right amount kids, saving for their college fund and then for retirement.
but why?
I can't help but compare with my surroundings, even I have quit Facebook for many years. I can't be myself when I'm around others, but become a money maker for things I don't need. I can't concentrate on what makes me happy.
I recall what made me happy. it was when I finally understood some papers, some equations, some code. I just want to find a quiet place to do these. I hope to become an awesome painter and a guitar player too.
I just want to have enough to survive and focus my energy on these things. I don't care if I have successful kids or fancy cars.
The title IMO is far more interesting and thought provoking than the actual story. So this guy lived in the woods somewhat near people, and stole to get by...
I've personally always been fascinated by the topic as I have met several hermit monks, have a friend who lived as one for half a year, and contemplated it for myself. The history of religious asceticism and hermits is quite interesting, and many of history's most famous philosophers/religious leaders/prophets were either hermits, or had periods of reclusion. And nearly every single religion has these hermit figures.
Anyhow, the downside is that being alone is tough. Physically and mentally. Humans are social creatures. However I have personally benefited from periods of isolation and reflection, even if I'd much rather be around others.
> Years ago, I went to India for a ten-day, silent retreat. I wanted to make myself go where I was afraid to go—deep down, inside my own head. I found it terrifying. Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see.
We live in a world in which who we are is defined by what we do. We are a role - parent, engineer, carer. Strip that away and all that remains is a who. That's the reward of solitude: a situation wherein you have nobody to bounce your 'self' off, nobody to define yourself in relation to, allowing you to surface.
Turns out that who you are is simply a sequence of reactions to experience - the external kind as well as that which bubbles up internally. Rather than terrifying, this should be seen as profoundly liberating.
It is terrifying before but liberating after. So I was extremely afraid of sky diving but once I did it, that felt liberating.
Its easy to talk about re-framing our mindset, especially for things that frighten or embarrass us. Much harder to carry out. But I do agree its important to take action regardless... that seems to be the only thing that helps with it.
Simpler: in a retreat there are few distractions and you can see many of your behaviors which you wouldn't normally notice. The silence also takes away a big coping mechanism.
Ahhh....but now your sequence of reactions that you have includes a 10 day experience that will forever contribute to your future "who you are." Can you really say you are worse for it?
Excellent point. I often contrast myself against my brother. I'm in STEM, he's a creative. I love Snickers, he can't stand nuts in his chocolate. I don't use social media, he's a social butterfly. Both of us base our "personality" at least to a certain degree, by comparing against each other. I wonder if either of us was an only child, if we'd still be as divergent.
My personal theory for explaining hermits throughout history is simple, these people had/have aspergers. I have aspergers myself, and I can very easily see someone who has aspergers who for whatever reason no longer wants to socialize anymore getting up and doing their own thing out in isolation. I don't truly believe that any neurotypical person, and for that matter many aspies could do it, but if you're brain is wired in a way that socialization doesn't provide that reward that it does for most other people, either because you don't understand social interaction and have no desire to learn the rules so you can play the game, or simply because you have discovered the rules and simply have no interest exhausting the effort, going out into isolation and spending the rest of your days pursuing other things that give you fulfillment.
>I have aspergers myself, and I can very easily see someone who has aspergers who for whatever reason no longer wants to socialize anymore getting up and doing their own thing out in isolation.
Did you get a diagnosis from a qualified professional, or is this self-diagnosis?
I used to wonder if I had it, but then I met someone who was diagnosed with it. Fairly significant difference.
>socialization doesn't provide that reward that it does for most other people
Exactly. If one doesn't get the reward then it's too easy to commit errors and not worth the effort to correct them.
However I do think 'spergs' have a better knowledge of the rules than normies. Just as a native speaker doesn't need to know grammar in order to speak correctly, so normies don't need to know the rules of social interaction.
I think the nonsperg is connected to society and the sperg isn't. Like, deep down in their brain and guts. It's a big difference. Like a sperg is a single celled organism and a nonsperg is one cell in a multicell blob.
> these people had/have aspergers [...] and simply have no interest exhausting the effort
I don't think it _necessarily_ needs to be aspergers for that. I have OCD regarding, e.g., remembering exactly what people said, and it makes social situations exhausting.
The letters Knight & Finkel exchanged add an interesting angle.
Can't say I'm a fan of the author's choice for title of this post. It's Chris Knight's story, and nothing in this post presents any evidence for anyone else at any other time, aside from this single sentence "Think of Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha: they all spent very long periods of time alone before introducing their religions." I totally believe there have always been people who want to be alone sometimes. Pretty much everyone wants to be alone sometimes. But ugh, this sentence & title seem to strain credulity and are so completely unnecessary and tangential to this story.
Yes, it's easy to dismiss him for many reason, but more interesting to me is how he survived the brutal Maine winters: by getting up in the middle of the night and pacing back and forth to warm up. Every night. For 27 winters. I don't know how you measure willpower but that's gotta be one of the greats right there.
I read about this man when the story first broke and found it extremely fascinating. I can relate to wanting to be alone and living an isolated existence. I love being in nature, away from the world and have often thought about pursuing such an existence permanently. But I just cannot comprehend his methods. Move to Alaska. Learn to hunt. Carve out a place for yourself somewhere. What he did tells me he was just insane - live near people and steal. To put it bluntly, this is fucking nuts.
> Years ago, I went to India for a ten-day, silent retreat. I wanted to make myself go where I was afraid to go—deep down, inside my own head. I found it terrifying. Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see.
I find it interesting that silent retreats work for so many people. While I do get some benefits from meditation it doesn't really lead me to terrifying situations. From time to time it feels like I am having some epiphanies wrt to my shortcomings but meditation seems too gentle to call those moments a confrontation. There is always this nice, cool distance between me and my thoughts. Throwing me into an impro theater group might be more beneficial (and terrifying).
The required spontaneity would force the "actual me" to live through uncomfortable situations and perhaps grow.
This looks like a good thread to recommend one of my favourite YouTube channels, "Primitive Technology", which features all manner of tools and dwellings built caveman-style.
It's creator is a hacker in the truest sense; his forge-blower contraption, for instance, is simply ingenious.
Don't forget to turn on captions, the subtitles describe what he's doing :)
I don't want to live in a wilderness, but i would want to greatly reduce mandatory social interactions i have to do daily. Its emotionally draining and stressful.
Almost everything we do can be automated, but people still insist on face-to-face interaction(or at minimum voice/video chat) and there is this herding behavior that forces people to adjust their beliefs and thoughts to conform to current in-group paradigms(the comparison with ant colonies ITT is on point).
All the 24/7 media exposure and rat race of consumerism eventually take their toll on mental health(the polar opposite of "hermit slowly losing their minds") with people becoming psychotic and dependent on pills to function.
There's an evolutionary advantage to having people who are isolated from the rest of the community. And not just in terms of sickness transmission. Things such as war, famine, and natural disasters can wipe out whole population groups.
"Man is by nature a social animal; an individual who is unsocial naturally and not accidentally is either beneath our notice or more than human. Society is something that precedes the individual. Anyone who either cannot lead the common life or is so self-sufficient as not to need to, and therefore does not partake of society, is either a beast or a god"
Great story. I wonder how spiritual/ religious Chris is. I understand being alone in nature and the desire for solitude but Chris's life style probably has a strong spiritual component. I am going to have to read the book.
BTW, prolonged solitude has been considered by most major Eastern schools (both Hindu and Buddhist) as necessarily precursor for spiritual transformations.
[+] [-] nabla9|8 years ago|reply
It's like coming from bright light into a dark room. Gradually your eyes adjust and you start to see more. Coming back into the civilization is similar to someone pointing flashlight into your eyes. So much external triggers for behaviour. Realizing that I'm not actually me with other people and I'm disappearing into network of others. Me with others is mainly just bunch of triggers that fire based on conditioning.
If I can feel intense otherworldliness from just week or month alone, I imagine that if someone spends decades alone, civilization might seem like miserable alien ant colony. Everybody is responding to commands from others and carrying stuff they don't care about.
ps. It also can trigger psycosis, panic or some kind of madness (prairie fever, cabin fever) in some people. Romanticizing it as escape from all your problems might give people the wrong idea.
[+] [-] foodstances|8 years ago|reply
As the season goes on, you can see a clear decline in the mental health of many of the contestants. Many drop out just out of sheer boredom or loneliness, even though they have decent shelter and can find food. The winners usually last about 2-3 months alone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alone_(TV_series)
[+] [-] drdeadringer|8 years ago|reply
About two months ago I went to the eye doctor with the last free spot on his schedule, the first one in the morning. I inquired to his booking. "Oh, I've had some people cancel because it's a nice summer day. They have better things to do than be in a dark room all day." I thought, 'Dude, you have no idea what I do for money right now." He's on wetware, I'm on hardware, we're both -- obviously through keeping the job out of our own volition -- enjoying doing the same job.
[+] [-] lgas|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agumonkey|8 years ago|reply
I am subject to the social conditioned trigger, that's why I avoid people, I feel like a liar, it's unbearable. In my previous job, I was shifted off 1 hour such that when people left at 6pm I had one hour of empty floor to work. The minute the last one leaves, my brain expands and I feel like a butterfly.
Also I can't stay with people because I suspect they also feel this but are still believing in society and thus try to play that absurd game even if they rot inside. Finding disguised ways to escape. I don't want to be there to ask them if they're sad, or worse if they try to lie. I don't have the energy to amort this kind of interaction right now.
I often wish leaving in a remote place with enough space to grow some fruit and veggies and then run and read. But ... I also remember that odd feeling when running cross country far from any familiar place. The woods got me hyper focused, borderline paranoid. I felt deep paranoia before (mugged 3x in a row) but this was different because it came rapidly but not violently. It felt like my reptilian brain was waking up. I didn't like that as much as a I did.. because the density of awareness was refreshing, every sensation became more focused. Sounds of the leaves, the movement of branches .. because I wanted to make sense of a foreign environment and it felt important for my safety, my mind started to tune up to everything without a feeling of drag. I also read people (reddit threads) living in the woods having frightening encounters so .. I'm not sure what I'll do.
ps: about 1), I feel that western modern society is all about raising the contrast on everything, but when everything is bright.. you actually lose something.
[+] [-] pm90|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wwwater|8 years ago|reply
Where is this place, where you can hike for a week without seeing any other human?
[+] [-] fiatjaf|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vlunkr|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nerdponx|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] white-flame|8 years ago|reply
I presume that on sites like this, there's a higher percentage of people who attempt to be more intentionally decisive about themselves and their lives. We don't necessarily have to toss out everything like Knight did, but looking at life and all the weird social rituals and expectations built up, the dichotomy between those and what seems actually beneficial becomes apparent. That conflict causes a choice, we would seek to do the "better" thing, and that draws many people outside the superficial social norms.
I especially bristle at this quote: "Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see." Anybody who tries to intentionally better themselves knows what's down there. You have to assess what you are if you're going to change. Sure, you can deny and hide from all that and simply find comfort in floating along with everybody else in social inertia, but that seems to me to be a shameful waste of those conceptual abilities which (apparently) make us uniquely human.
[+] [-] smallnamespace|8 years ago|reply
Does anyone else appreciate the delicious irony that parent is hitting all the right notes for an appeal to the tribe while at the same time criticizing tribalism?
1. Establish an 'us' vs. 'them' distinction ('I presume on sites like this') 2. Subtly denigrating outsiders ('draws many people outside the superficial social norms.') 3. Establishing higher common values ('That conflict causes a choice, we would seek to do the "better" thing')
Trying to be original, individualistic, and nonconformist what everyone is taught in the US from an early age.
[+] [-] pm90|8 years ago|reply
I can't express how glad I feel though, that I am living in an age and country where not being socially pliant isn't something that would get me killed. Where I can continue to live my life the way that I want to, rather than buy into social norms and regulations, many of which seem rather anachronistic.
[+] [-] c3534l|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] evervevdww221|8 years ago|reply
but why?
I can't help but compare with my surroundings, even I have quit Facebook for many years. I can't be myself when I'm around others, but become a money maker for things I don't need. I can't concentrate on what makes me happy.
I recall what made me happy. it was when I finally understood some papers, some equations, some code. I just want to find a quiet place to do these. I hope to become an awesome painter and a guitar player too.
I just want to have enough to survive and focus my energy on these things. I don't care if I have successful kids or fancy cars.
[+] [-] Mikeb85|8 years ago|reply
I've personally always been fascinated by the topic as I have met several hermit monks, have a friend who lived as one for half a year, and contemplated it for myself. The history of religious asceticism and hermits is quite interesting, and many of history's most famous philosophers/religious leaders/prophets were either hermits, or had periods of reclusion. And nearly every single religion has these hermit figures.
Anyhow, the downside is that being alone is tough. Physically and mentally. Humans are social creatures. However I have personally benefited from periods of isolation and reflection, even if I'd much rather be around others.
[+] [-] factsaresacred|8 years ago|reply
We live in a world in which who we are is defined by what we do. We are a role - parent, engineer, carer. Strip that away and all that remains is a who. That's the reward of solitude: a situation wherein you have nobody to bounce your 'self' off, nobody to define yourself in relation to, allowing you to surface.
Turns out that who you are is simply a sequence of reactions to experience - the external kind as well as that which bubbles up internally. Rather than terrifying, this should be seen as profoundly liberating.
[+] [-] pm90|8 years ago|reply
Its easy to talk about re-framing our mindset, especially for things that frighten or embarrass us. Much harder to carry out. But I do agree its important to take action regardless... that seems to be the only thing that helps with it.
[+] [-] eternauta3k|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vidanay|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] exergy|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] InternetUser|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tray5|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BeetleB|8 years ago|reply
Did you get a diagnosis from a qualified professional, or is this self-diagnosis?
I used to wonder if I had it, but then I met someone who was diagnosed with it. Fairly significant difference.
[+] [-] roceasta|8 years ago|reply
Exactly. If one doesn't get the reward then it's too easy to commit errors and not worth the effort to correct them.
However I do think 'spergs' have a better knowledge of the rules than normies. Just as a native speaker doesn't need to know grammar in order to speak correctly, so normies don't need to know the rules of social interaction.
[+] [-] swayvil|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stordoff|8 years ago|reply
I don't think it _necessarily_ needs to be aspergers for that. I have OCD regarding, e.g., remembering exactly what people said, and it makes social situations exhausting.
[+] [-] dahart|8 years ago|reply
The letters Knight & Finkel exchanged add an interesting angle.
Can't say I'm a fan of the author's choice for title of this post. It's Chris Knight's story, and nothing in this post presents any evidence for anyone else at any other time, aside from this single sentence "Think of Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha: they all spent very long periods of time alone before introducing their religions." I totally believe there have always been people who want to be alone sometimes. Pretty much everyone wants to be alone sometimes. But ugh, this sentence & title seem to strain credulity and are so completely unnecessary and tangential to this story.
[+] [-] fern12|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] booleandilemma|8 years ago|reply
The man burglarized people's houses for supplies.
[+] [-] 65827|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] barrkel|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tonyedgecombe|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] coldtea|8 years ago|reply
If that was all it takes to survive in the woods for decades then that would be relevant.
[+] [-] dr_bloodmoney|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cJ0th|8 years ago|reply
I find it interesting that silent retreats work for so many people. While I do get some benefits from meditation it doesn't really lead me to terrifying situations. From time to time it feels like I am having some epiphanies wrt to my shortcomings but meditation seems too gentle to call those moments a confrontation. There is always this nice, cool distance between me and my thoughts. Throwing me into an impro theater group might be more beneficial (and terrifying). The required spontaneity would force the "actual me" to live through uncomfortable situations and perhaps grow.
[+] [-] KhanMahGretsch|8 years ago|reply
It's creator is a hacker in the truest sense; his forge-blower contraption, for instance, is simply ingenious.
Don't forget to turn on captions, the subtitles describe what he's doing :)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA
[+] [-] FrozenVoid|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DannyDaemonic|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Zuider|8 years ago|reply
From Aristotle, The Politics.
[+] [-] mythrwy|8 years ago|reply
All people (and cultural groups for that matter) are not equally pleasant to be around.
[+] [-] gozur88|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mkhalil|8 years ago|reply
This really resonates with me. The "Fear of missing out" is something I try to avoid like the plague, but sometimes I wonder why do I even care?
edit: replaced the acronym FOMA
[+] [-] InternetUser|8 years ago|reply
Ok, then don't care. Maybe it's time to finally grow up. Or then again, maybe the desire for company is perfectly natural and instinctual.
[+] [-] jack_pp|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mark_l_watson|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] taw55|8 years ago|reply
http://www.gq.com/story/the-last-true-hermit
[+] [-] astrostl|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lngnmn|8 years ago|reply
BTW, prolonged solitude has been considered by most major Eastern schools (both Hindu and Buddhist) as necessarily precursor for spiritual transformations.