This kid that turned down a 40K a year gig for something "perfect" is an idiot that deserves what he gets.
The first thing I would do if I was looking for a job is... get a job. ANY job. I've got an engineering degree, and I'd start flipping burgers or hauling trash or whatever just to keep working. THEN I would start looking for a more suitable career job.
It's pretty simple. As a hiring manager looking at two potential employees, one who is "waiting for the right position" and another that is "trying to get by", I go with the latter every time. The first guy is definitely out of touch with reality, and the second guy is doing what it takes to get stuff done. I want him working for me.
The "American dream" is basically the idea of open-ended opportunity, that is, that one can overcome barriers through hard work and resourcefulness to rise to financial success.
The generations of immigrants who came to America throughout the 1800s and early 1900s in particular did not expect to start at the top or to have some predefined path to success. They shined shoes, washed dishes, waited tables, worked on railroads, did whatever scut work was available, and stored up what little they got so that one day they might afford a home and be able to put their kids through college. That was not a universal experience, but it was a common one. Nothing glamorous about it. Yet, through hardship and sacrifice, they could advance - eventually escaping from the poverty that had marked their lives and those of so many of their compatriots back home. I experienced this first-hand in a family of Greek immigrants and we, as the kids in such a family, were never indulged but were expected as well to get delivery jobs, restaurant jobs, whatever, in order to help pay our way through school. We were all told to set our goals high but never to think of ourselves as being too good for the work we had to along the way, whatever it might be and however hard or unappealing it might be. That is how character is shaped to prepare you for the greater challenges ahead.
And so all I can say about your comment is "spot on." Thanks.
If the NY Times want to write a story about an elusive American Dream they should write about us, the Dream Act students, who've been stuck in limbo with no job and no rights in sight because of our broken immigration system.
It feels absolutely devastating to graduate from college, hang that degree on the wall, and realize that you can't even open a bank account.
To be fair, hunting a job while in another job is much trickier. It actually takes quite some time to write applications and so on (that's how I remember it anyway). Not saying it is impossible, but I can imagine that "just take any job" could be counter productive.
A good barometer for whether a decent college grad should take a job is how elite business schools will perceive the work experience-- they generally require four years of real-world work experience in applicants. I'm not saying that everyone needs to go to Harvard Business School (I most likely won't) but that people should only take jobs that are putting them on the right track.
This article is insulting, this is not the American dream. The American dream has never been about the pampered children of the elite working their way through subsidized higher education and finding exactly the right job just out of college with no experience.
The American dream is about working your ass off and scrambling your way up the ladder. It's about entrepreneurism and opportunity. It's about hard work and determination paying off over time. Andrew Carnegie's first job earned lower wages than working at McDonald's would today, he became wealthy not because he sat around like a sad sack waiting for his pre-conceived dream job to come to him while he was sitting around in his parent's house, he became wealthy because he sought out opportunities and took advantage of what he could. Like many highly successful people he worked his way through several careers.
The American dream isn't about the guy in this article, it's about the guy down the street starting a lawn care business with a rented lawnmower who uses hard work and sound judgment to build it into a landscaping company with its own office and several employees. It's about the other guy who builds an online business in his free time and works days, evenings, and weekends in order to make his dream reality. It's about the opportunity to work your way from nothing up to a comfortable living if you're willing to put in the elbow grease. That dream is as alive as ever, and with the low-overhead of internet based businesses if anything it's seeing a rebirth.
While I agree that the article chose the wrong focus, I think you're wrong. Look at the American Dream on a societal level: while there will continue to be outliers, the fact is that today's younger generations are doing worse than their parents by many measures.
How on earth is that "as alive as ever"?
(More abstractly: I think the whole American Dream thing is a destructive myth, due specifically to its fixation on "elbow grease" at the expense of the many, many, other factors that play into success.)
"Somewhere along the line the “American Dream” became having a “good job” that pays enough to be able to afford to “buy your own home”.
...
Historically the REAL “American Dream” used to be to owning your own business and becoming financially independent, while working for yourself, controlling your own destiny."
I agree, seriously, how many successful startups have we seen spring to life during this recession? The American Dream is still alive and well if you have the right skill set. And that's the way it's always been.
The true meaning of American Dream is that you're "free" to pursue your dreams without government interference. You could argue that in that sense the Dream has diminished, but this author is way off the mark.
Rather than waste early years in dead-end work, he reasoned, he would hold out for a corporate position that would draw on his college training and put him, as he sees it, on the bottom rungs of a career ladder.
Prima donna.
At least he hasn't been doing any 'dead end' work for the last 2 years. However, he can put 2 years of professional job hunting on his resume. I don't think he understands, that 40K job is the bottom of the career ladder. You're not supposed to stay there very long.
I graduated college 5 years ago with a Poli sci BA from a state school. My first job was for $11/hr working on MS Pagemaker for the Wisconsin Medicaid website for EDS. Talk about soul sucking!
Now, I'm a senior software engineer at a VC-funded software company in Boulder. Needless to say earning a bit more and doing a lot more rewarding work.
Between those two places there are about four other jobs and literally thousands of hours reading programming books, working on "play" projects, making websites for my Aunt, Grandma, anyone who would let me, etc.
Best advice is to get out there, get any job, stay hungry, intellectually curious and never settle. Then stop worrying.
I hate to say it, but if you have been looking for work for a long time and turn down an offer.... You can't complain.
There is a saying about beggars and choosers.
I completely understand being in a job that I dislike, but a job that I dislike is better than no job and no prospects of a job.
A single position can build a resume and open more doors. This was a foolish mistake it seems. I would love to hear about a follow up. Did this guy land the job that he wants?
I am not American but French-Canadian. Perhaps my idea of the American dream was skewed by hollywood.
I always thought that the American dream was about determination winning over "old money". I thought it was having fewer roadblocks in front of you. I thought it was about having opportunities to prove oneself regardless of wether or not you have a diploma.
Am I so disconnected from this kid's worldview that I can't understand why he didn't take up the 40k? I accepted my first job realizing that it wasn't so much about the money I was making as the chance to prove myself out there. Prove myself I did. I doubled my salary within the first 5 years and got more and more interesting jobs as time went by.
This guy just has sense of entitlement. He calls it the American dream but either he doesn't know what that means or I don't.
Actually, upon looking again, I think that his grandfather has a point. My english teacher my senior year of high school strongly encouraged me to spend a semester biking or backpacking through Europe, taking short term jobs to support myself as I traveled. At the time, I thought she was insane, but that kind of perspective could probably do this guy lots of good.
I graduated a few years ago, and a common worldview in my graduating class was, "I've put X amount of work in my whole life, so I should hear back from jobs when I apply." It's a flawed line of thought, but it's not common to question things you've been told your whole life. The truth is much more subtle - hard work is important, but working hard towards a goal is what gets you jobs.
It wasn't very common to find someone who tried to make industry contacts, or who helped out inside of their department at special events, or who spent large amounts of spare time trying to improve themselves. They just signed up for a whole bunch of classes and worked their ass off in the classroom. Which is good! But it doesn't translate well into job offers
The kid in the article lacks the fundamentals for getting a job he wants, but at least he seemed willing to compromise on his lofty ideals and MIGHT accept a lesser job in the future. He should listen to his grandfather! "“Scott has got to find somebody who knows someone,” the grandfather said, “someone who can get him to the head of the line.”"
I was surprised to read this article, as it seemed to me from reading HN and other tech-related news sources that there are more opportunities than ever. Am I wrong?
From the article: he doesn't want to be an entrepreneur or work in small-fish business. He is set for building a traditional career in a finance corporation. A yuppie born into wrong era.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "oppotunities". While the economy is still slow, companies are hiring. However, it is easy to lose sight of the fact that engineering/technology degrees are much more marketable than traditional liberal arts degrees, which can give those of us in the tech-space a bit of a distorted view of the job market.
That said, the article chooses to focus on an entitled douchebag.
I haven't finished the article but I'm guessing his resume isn't stellar or he has no networking. I had no problems finding a job 2 years ago but this may have been to me being a CS major.
Everyone I knew and still keep in touch with also found. This includes a few with < 3.0 GPA and many were business majors.
If you aren't a computer programmer, there are few jobs, even if you have a degree in something hard, like Physics. If you live somewhere like Arizona, there are few jobs even if you are a computer programmer.
I have a Political Science degree and I work as a senior software engineer.
My Dad has a degree in history, wanted to be a dentist and spent 30 years doing environmental contracting work.
People can't really expect to work in exactly the area they get their undergrad degree in, can they?
The guy from the article just needs to get real and realize that big boys get up in the morning and go to work whether they like it or not. That's called being an adult.
I think it's partly the universities fault for promoting this kind of "well rounded" education. You would have to think though that this can't be doing him any favours applying for finance jobs against people that actually did economics and similar.
Is this particular point so terrible? I'm 23 and am still on my parents' plan. The marginal cost of keeping me on their family plan is so much less than the cost of me getting my own line that it makes little sense for me to get my own, even though I could easily afford it.
hah...I actually went to high school with that kid. My parents went broke sending me to a private school they couldn't afford, so I had the pleasure of growing up with spoiled millionaire future liberal arts majors. Do I take pleasure knowing that today, I forbid my parents from ever picking up a restaurant tab when we go out, and meanwhile his parents are still paying for his cell phone? Yes, yes I do take pleasure :)
“I don’t think I fully understood the severity of the situation I had graduated into,” he said, speaking in effect for an age group — the so-called millennials, 18 to 29 — whose unemployment rate of nearly 14 percent approaches the levels of that group in the Great Depression. And then he veered into the optimism that, polls show, is persistently, perhaps perversely, characteristic of millennials today. “I am absolutely certain that my job hunt will eventually pay off,” he said.
This writer should be doing over-dramatic stories for The Onion.
I think this kid's problem ultimately boils down to one statement: "He majored in political science and minored in history."
And he wants to earn north of $75k? Why? Because he read a lot of history books? And he's arrogant enough to say this to the NY Times? He might as well put a stamp on his forehead that says "Arrogant bastard. Do not hire."
These articles emerge like cicadas every few years, especially during temporary economic downturns. The definition of the 'American Dream' is nebulous enough that you can always, for the purpose of the story, define it as what today's kids won't have as easy as their parents.
This is the curse of coming from a well-off family: you can't imagine struggling up. And your mommy probably agrees that you're better than that. Maybe his father disagreed temporarily with his son's rejection of that job, but I bet the message he's been giving his son the other 365 days a year is that he's so gifted, talented, and destined for great things.
That said, I'd love to have coffee with his grandfather. Sounds like an interesting guy.
There are a million opportunities out there for young people who are willing to work outside of school, on talents or skills or connections - but not for those who expect to get experience handed to them with their grades.
It seems to me this is a generational thing. I live in Europe, coming from a not-so-rich family, and my 30 years old sister is exactly like that guy - if the job is so-called boring or "inferior", she would not even consider it...she prefers to keep sending resumes.
But on the other hand, I am not willing to criticize him too quickly. I think there is some truth to it - if you settle for the unsuitable job, it might be difficult to move from there. In other words, I am not a strong proponent of the "better any job than no job" mentality. Sometimes it is better to continue searching.
[+] [-] francoisdevlin|15 years ago|reply
The first thing I would do if I was looking for a job is... get a job. ANY job. I've got an engineering degree, and I'd start flipping burgers or hauling trash or whatever just to keep working. THEN I would start looking for a more suitable career job.
It's pretty simple. As a hiring manager looking at two potential employees, one who is "waiting for the right position" and another that is "trying to get by", I go with the latter every time. The first guy is definitely out of touch with reality, and the second guy is doing what it takes to get stuff done. I want him working for me.
[+] [-] grellas|15 years ago|reply
The generations of immigrants who came to America throughout the 1800s and early 1900s in particular did not expect to start at the top or to have some predefined path to success. They shined shoes, washed dishes, waited tables, worked on railroads, did whatever scut work was available, and stored up what little they got so that one day they might afford a home and be able to put their kids through college. That was not a universal experience, but it was a common one. Nothing glamorous about it. Yet, through hardship and sacrifice, they could advance - eventually escaping from the poverty that had marked their lives and those of so many of their compatriots back home. I experienced this first-hand in a family of Greek immigrants and we, as the kids in such a family, were never indulged but were expected as well to get delivery jobs, restaurant jobs, whatever, in order to help pay our way through school. We were all told to set our goals high but never to think of ourselves as being too good for the work we had to along the way, whatever it might be and however hard or unappealing it might be. That is how character is shaped to prepare you for the greater challenges ahead.
And so all I can say about your comment is "spot on." Thanks.
[+] [-] nick-dap|15 years ago|reply
If the NY Times want to write a story about an elusive American Dream they should write about us, the Dream Act students, who've been stuck in limbo with no job and no rights in sight because of our broken immigration system.
It feels absolutely devastating to graduate from college, hang that degree on the wall, and realize that you can't even open a bank account.
[+] [-] Tichy|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] reader5000|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] capital_omega|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] InclinedPlane|15 years ago|reply
The American dream is about working your ass off and scrambling your way up the ladder. It's about entrepreneurism and opportunity. It's about hard work and determination paying off over time. Andrew Carnegie's first job earned lower wages than working at McDonald's would today, he became wealthy not because he sat around like a sad sack waiting for his pre-conceived dream job to come to him while he was sitting around in his parent's house, he became wealthy because he sought out opportunities and took advantage of what he could. Like many highly successful people he worked his way through several careers.
The American dream isn't about the guy in this article, it's about the guy down the street starting a lawn care business with a rented lawnmower who uses hard work and sound judgment to build it into a landscaping company with its own office and several employees. It's about the other guy who builds an online business in his free time and works days, evenings, and weekends in order to make his dream reality. It's about the opportunity to work your way from nothing up to a comfortable living if you're willing to put in the elbow grease. That dream is as alive as ever, and with the low-overhead of internet based businesses if anything it's seeing a rebirth.
[+] [-] crux_|15 years ago|reply
While I agree that the article chose the wrong focus, I think you're wrong. Look at the American Dream on a societal level: while there will continue to be outliers, the fact is that today's younger generations are doing worse than their parents by many measures.
How on earth is that "as alive as ever"?
(More abstractly: I think the whole American Dream thing is a destructive myth, due specifically to its fixation on "elbow grease" at the expense of the many, many, other factors that play into success.)
[+] [-] mattm|15 years ago|reply
"Somewhere along the line the “American Dream” became having a “good job” that pays enough to be able to afford to “buy your own home”.
...
Historically the REAL “American Dream” used to be to owning your own business and becoming financially independent, while working for yourself, controlling your own destiny."
[+] [-] ac132|15 years ago|reply
The true meaning of American Dream is that you're "free" to pursue your dreams without government interference. You could argue that in that sense the Dream has diminished, but this author is way off the mark.
[+] [-] angstrom|15 years ago|reply
Prima donna. At least he hasn't been doing any 'dead end' work for the last 2 years. However, he can put 2 years of professional job hunting on his resume. I don't think he understands, that 40K job is the bottom of the career ladder. You're not supposed to stay there very long.
[+] [-] jbail|15 years ago|reply
I graduated college 5 years ago with a Poli sci BA from a state school. My first job was for $11/hr working on MS Pagemaker for the Wisconsin Medicaid website for EDS. Talk about soul sucking!
Now, I'm a senior software engineer at a VC-funded software company in Boulder. Needless to say earning a bit more and doing a lot more rewarding work.
Between those two places there are about four other jobs and literally thousands of hours reading programming books, working on "play" projects, making websites for my Aunt, Grandma, anyone who would let me, etc.
Best advice is to get out there, get any job, stay hungry, intellectually curious and never settle. Then stop worrying.
[+] [-] bbwharris|15 years ago|reply
There is a saying about beggars and choosers.
I completely understand being in a job that I dislike, but a job that I dislike is better than no job and no prospects of a job.
A single position can build a resume and open more doors. This was a foolish mistake it seems. I would love to hear about a follow up. Did this guy land the job that he wants?
[+] [-] roc|15 years ago|reply
That's what jumped out at me as the giant, blinking, neon sign. You and I can't turn down an offer and still complain.
But a kid with that mindset absolutely will. He has absolutely no perspective. His parents and grandparents have raised him within Plato's Cave.
[+] [-] xutopia|15 years ago|reply
I always thought that the American dream was about determination winning over "old money". I thought it was having fewer roadblocks in front of you. I thought it was about having opportunities to prove oneself regardless of wether or not you have a diploma.
Am I so disconnected from this kid's worldview that I can't understand why he didn't take up the 40k? I accepted my first job realizing that it wasn't so much about the money I was making as the chance to prove myself out there. Prove myself I did. I doubled my salary within the first 5 years and got more and more interesting jobs as time went by.
This guy just has sense of entitlement. He calls it the American dream but either he doesn't know what that means or I don't.
[+] [-] wfjackson3|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wickedshimmy|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jakevoytko|15 years ago|reply
It wasn't very common to find someone who tried to make industry contacts, or who helped out inside of their department at special events, or who spent large amounts of spare time trying to improve themselves. They just signed up for a whole bunch of classes and worked their ass off in the classroom. Which is good! But it doesn't translate well into job offers
The kid in the article lacks the fundamentals for getting a job he wants, but at least he seemed willing to compromise on his lofty ideals and MIGHT accept a lesser job in the future. He should listen to his grandfather! "“Scott has got to find somebody who knows someone,” the grandfather said, “someone who can get him to the head of the line.”"
[+] [-] rmundo|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] varjag|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hvs|15 years ago|reply
That said, the article chooses to focus on an entitled douchebag.
[+] [-] jasonlotito|15 years ago|reply
He had an opportunity, but didn't take it. He'd prefer to sit and wait. If anything, it makes it look like the company is better off without him.
[+] [-] watty|15 years ago|reply
Everyone I knew and still keep in touch with also found. This includes a few with < 3.0 GPA and many were business majors.
[+] [-] starkfist|15 years ago|reply
If you aren't a computer programmer, there are few jobs, even if you have a degree in something hard, like Physics. If you live somewhere like Arizona, there are few jobs even if you are a computer programmer.
[+] [-] wfjackson3|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jbail|15 years ago|reply
My Dad has a degree in history, wanted to be a dentist and spent 30 years doing environmental contracting work.
People can't really expect to work in exactly the area they get their undergrad degree in, can they?
The guy from the article just needs to get real and realize that big boys get up in the morning and go to work whether they like it or not. That's called being an adult.
[+] [-] robryan|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PonyGumbo|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] masterj|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] raintrees|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sgoranson|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dgreensp|15 years ago|reply
This writer should be doing over-dramatic stories for The Onion.
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ac132|15 years ago|reply
And he wants to earn north of $75k? Why? Because he read a lot of history books? And he's arrogant enough to say this to the NY Times? He might as well put a stamp on his forehead that says "Arrogant bastard. Do not hire."
[+] [-] gojomo|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] patrickgzill|15 years ago|reply
Sounds like what he really needs to do is get the hell away from his parents who keep making excuses for him and trying to be "understanding".
[+] [-] aplusbi|15 years ago|reply
"American Dream Elusive for New Generation": get political science degree, apply to finance jobs, reject entry-level positions -> fail.
[+] [-] Maven911|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ahoyhere|15 years ago|reply
That said, I'd love to have coffee with his grandfather. Sounds like an interesting guy.
There are a million opportunities out there for young people who are willing to work outside of school, on talents or skills or connections - but not for those who expect to get experience handed to them with their grades.
[+] [-] greyman|15 years ago|reply
But on the other hand, I am not willing to criticize him too quickly. I think there is some truth to it - if you settle for the unsuitable job, it might be difficult to move from there. In other words, I am not a strong proponent of the "better any job than no job" mentality. Sometimes it is better to continue searching.