Companies like this have been around for years, and whenever I read about them I'm surprised that people would risk going to prison (or worse) just to get a discounted air fare. I wouldn't even carry a package for a friend unless I could see exactly what was inside, let alone carry a suitcase full of unknown stuff for a total stranger.
Also, an inevitable question when going through security checkpoints in some countries is "did you pack your own luggage". I assume that if you answer "no", you'd be subjected to a very thorough search for bombs or contraband.
Calling a company "Airmule" seems to be a particularly bad choice, since the term "mule" is commonly used to denote a person who carries smuggled drugs (sometimes concealed inside their body).
>Calling a company "Airmule" seems to be a particularly bad choice, since the term "mule" is commonly used to denote a person who carries smuggled drugs (sometimes concealed inside their body).
No kidding. One has to wonder how the founders can't be aware of that. Perhaps it was intended as a tongue-in-cheek name?
I wouldn't even carry luggage for my wife or my mother, even if traveling with them. My mother once said "We haven't had problems with my morphine when we visited China (She's old and suffers from hip arthrosis). Actually I had put half in your dad's luggage, in case they lost mine." My dad wasn't happy, especially at how casual she sounded. She didn't even carry the doctor's ordinance. Most people don't understand the risks of being abroad.
"Also, an inevitable question when going through security checkpoints in some countries is "did you pack your own luggage". I assume that if you answer "no", you'd be subjected to a very thorough search for bombs or contraband."
Yeah, but that's actually probably not the biggest problem here. A thorough search for bombs is just that - a thorough search. Some people are selected randomly for this kind of search. Unless you're actually carrying a bomb (and that is one thing this company does say it protects against), then you shouldn't have to worry about this.
(Although all the other things said against them seem exactly right to me, so I'm not in any way endorsing them.)
I started a similar company where the shipments were all carried inside balloons in the "courier's" gastrointestinal tracts, and for some reason that didn't work out either.
Hah. The name being a bad choice no matter how tongue in cheek it is, is the first thing that came up for me too. I hastily wrote a comment before seeing your top comment brings this up too.
There is no way your company name should be this tongue in cheek about something that can be as serious as international drug smuggling.
At worst they should've got the domain name and made it a marketing landing page for their actual company. Not use Airmule as their actual company name.
I agree completely - I also wonder how long a visible and poorly named company can get away with this since the airlines typically offer "counter-to-counter" freight service that uses their position as a common carrier to shield them from liability.
AirMule is performing an arbitrage since the price difference is making them a profit but the airlines can't be happy about it whether or not the practice has been quietly going along for decades.
The target market might be people who otherwise would never be able to afford the fare, and therefore consider the discount worth the risk. If you don't have the personal wealth to travel, I can imagine that this kind of opportunity would be very attractive.
Why not just open the package and inspect it yourself? Then reseal it? It seems like you would get in way less trouble for opening a package given to (and you're not even a common carrier so does the non-opening law apply?) you than getting caught trafficking drugs.
If I were to sign up for this I would make it clear that it is not my luggage. In fact it is the first thing I would say to the airport staff: that I'm carrying this package on behalf of this company and everything is supposed to be arranged an in order. If anything is off and airport security would decide to confiscate / disallow the package, that is not my problem. I'd shrug and say "do what you've got to do". It's the Airmule's responsibility to make sure that whatever papers need to be filed are filed.
"Please note that, as stated above, the site, application and services are intended to be used to facilitate travelers and senders connecting and arranging item transportation directly with each other. Airmule cannot and does not control the content contained in any package and the condition, legality or suitability of any items and luggage. Airmule strongly advises each traveler to inspect each item carefully. If a traveler does suspects an item is illicit, do not transport and contact airmule. Airmule is not responsible for and disclaims any and all liability related to any and all available transportation. Accordingly, any inquiries will be made or accepted at the member’s own risk."
I don't know how long that has been there, but it is clear. They are brokers, but don't accept any liability.
I cringe when I read such Trumpian tweets from a founder. The journalist reached out a few times and the response was unclear. So he writes his piece with a pretty clear warning to future customers. Get your PR and compliance straight if you want to avoid such pieces, don't complain afterwards while calling names.
Caveat emptor. Just those responses are a red flag, if the subject is legal risk surrounding smuggling to PRC. They don't want you to know.
The hell with that, the company should be shut down. Some poor soul will think it's a sweet deal. They're putting people at risk of the death penalty without telling them and implying everyone is A-OK.
So journalists conduct their interviews in 140-character messages nowadays? I can't help but agree with the co-founder that hit-pieces should be based on actual interviews, not a Twitter conversation, ff we're going to consider this as journalism of course. If it's just amateurish blogging then I guess that would pass.
If you can't answer a yes no question without wishy-washy flim-flam pr doublespeak then you don't get to complain that an article doesn't have facts.
and while i'm ranting. what is with founders presenting them selves as "bro's at the bar"?
If the founders had bios that looked like they were from upper management at ibm i might be more likely to use their service.
I find responses like those given from the co-founder here infuriating for some reason - far more so than I realistically should. I've always valued transparency when it comes to business, so when I see people dancing around straight answers and then lashing out when people take issue with said responses it just seems so remarkably childish.
I sympathise entirely. Perhaps unwarranted, but this causes /r/punchablefaces levels of infuriation in me. The author of the blog post wrote a very level headed opinion piece, was perfectly polite even on twitter, and certainly didn't call anyone "lame". By contrast, the founder comes off as an overgrown child looking to get rich quick.
I doubt your anger is out of bounds. We are talking about potential - likely, even - smuggling of illegal goods into a country that has a human rights record that is... less than stellar. And their co-founder is childish and speaks in twisted words to try and avoid the truth.
I don't know anything about airmule's operation or China's customs/security, but the on-board courier industry is a legitimate one that has regulations and procedures that it's not clear the author of this article is aware of.
> "We have found contraband in [courier] shipments," says U.S. Customs official Bob Fischler, "but percentage-wise it is infinitisemal. And in any seizure we made, it was obvious that the on-board courier had nothing to do with it." In fact, at New York' JFK and at London's Heathrow airport, because of the sheer volume of courier shipments, all courier pouches go to a central location for clearance. The courier is typically dismissed before customs physically inspects the shipments.
That's a quote from US officials. The author points out you'd be dealing with Chinese officials. It turns out those aren't the same. Read the article to see what happens next.
Quite a few companies operate in this space. This business idea & its risks have been discussed on HN more than once. I'm surprised that some of these are still around. A likely pivot for these could be to carry specific goods where there are no "dangerous" side effects e.g. importing smartphones, laptops etc. Although they still are not exactly legal.
Founder of a startup, having a major article killing your company and "don't have time on a Saturday with my family to engage".
I understand that family is important, but isn't a situation like this so important that you - at least - replace some time next week by 2hours now to answer to this article?!
I can just see it at the airport. "Did you pack your bags yourself?".
I guess at 40 I'm not the target audience for this, but I'd be worried a younger person trying to save money might end up paying a high price.
The name 'airmule' doesn't do it any favours either.
When I was studying in Taiwan in the early 80s, the island's high tariffs motivated travelers to carry suitcases full of stuff--Walkmans, cameras, Italian shoes, etc. Contact a guy in Hong Kong, he gives you a bag, a guy in Taipei picks it up and gives you NT5000, enough to pay for your ticket.
I never got up the courage to try it myself, but friends did. My girlfriend did it once.
Looking back, I realize how exceedingly stupid this was. Had there been heroin inside that camera, you were going to prison for the rest of your life. They didn't (and still don't) screw around.
I heard all sorts of stories. An Australian backpacker was caught at Korean customs with 50 Rolex watches stuffed in his shirt. He was sent up for ten years. Numerous young Americans and Europeans busted for drug smuggling were rotting in prison in Taiwan, Korea, and Japan. At the time, with these countries technically allied with us against Red China, execution was not a politically feasible alternative.
This Mule thing is just another respin of an old practice. Best to avoid.
I've always thought the best way to get a bomb on a plane, was to bribe someone in the crew to smuggle drugs for you (and then give them a bomb that looked like a package of drugs).
This takes things to a whole new level - you could get people to smuggle anything for next to nothing, if you packed in something else. Or, get them to blow up a plane they're on.
You buy the products locals ordered (locals pay for item + delivery fee upfront into escrow) so there's no risk of a third party hiding drugs or illegal materials.
One risk is if the item is perfectly legal and ordinary in the US but is illegal to import into the foreign country. The courier could wind up paying heavy fines or much worse.
Kinder eggs are an example of an item that is perfectly fine in, say, Canada, but carries a heavy fine for import into the US.
Evading duty is still a legal issue. Some countries have laws that permit you to carry some articles without duty, for personal use. This is a clear subversion of such rules.
It's significant that the business is about shipments from the US to China. That seems to be hard. Getting stuff shipped from China to the US seems to be ridiculously easy and fast. You can order stuff off Alibaba and get fast delivery via China Packet, which is a postal service with really good rates for China to the US. Delivery in the US is via the USPS.
The other direction is much more expensive and slower.
The US needs to renegotiate postal rates with China. China is still getting the "developing country" discount from the USPS.
I don't think shipping from US to China is necessarily expensive, especially considering all those Chinese cargo ships are returning empty. I think the main niche of this service is sending controlled goods to China.
It's not just the shipping costs, either. Apparently importing and exporting items in China is a hugely expensive bureaucratic pain: http://dangerousprototypes.com/blog/2016/02/04/how-to-china-... "In practice, almost everyone doing production in China has some variant of a story where they smuggle chips into the country in a backpack, pants pocket, etc."
> Plus, you really have to love the founders of this company. I mean, as a startup founder myself, I’m rooting for them. One is a hardcore gamer, the other is a former backup dancer for Gucci Mane, and the third loves beer more than you do. I’m not making this up–this is what they say about themselves on their Web page
This guy clearly doesn't get it. Your startup page is where you post a phip relatable quirky attribute, whereas your actual qualifications go in single-phrase sentences on your twitter bio and after your name on quora answers
It was not so long ago that the CBP stopped a business courier off a flight from Guatemala who happened to carry nine pounds of heroin. Because he was a courier, he was not criminally charged, nonetheless he was barred from entry and banned for at least five years. And that's the USA, not China.
This makes me super curious about the pre flight baggage controls. How do they handle someone who picks up the extra bag, but winds up not taking the flight?
With baby formula, i'd just return the bag and apologize, eating the $99. Heroin on the other hand, i could probably move at a steep discount. $1k or so, not worth the risk. $10 or $20k? hmm. The bag needs to be worth at least $1000 in the target country, just to break even.
it seems like pretending to be a stoner, and setting up enough to buy a plane ticket could get you a lot of money for $99. Fake id and a prepaid credit card aren't that hard to come by. It's not like the ID needs to pass TSA inspection, as you're not taking the flight.
Seems like a very risky business. If your customers are willing to be pasties, it'll be ok. but just a couple of sharks completely change the risk profile. Doing stuff that precludes government enforcement of contracts is just crazy crazy risky.
Before clicking on the article I thought that the dangerous catch was that you have to sit in seat 31B and wondered why. The article's title and site name should really be differentiated better in HN's title.
On their website they state "Airmule then manually inspects and verifies each item prior to packaging for a traveler."
but I doubt this company that started last year has more experience finding contraband than law enforcement doing it their whole lives who have seen everything. Pretty asymmetric risk profile, save a couple hundred bucks for potentially your life.
Looks quite shady, especially given we're talking about China. Anything being wrong with the package - not even drugs - that'd be insanely bad - but I'm sure there are many other things which require special papers to get into China, or are prohibited, and if something is wrong, it's the courier's ass on the line. I don't see how it could be worth the risk of being imprisoned in China. I mean it's one thing to be in a "gray area" as an American in the US, with all legal protections and ACLU and so on, and another thing doing the same in China...
And I wonder what TSA thinks about people transporting things that they have little idea about in their luggage?
The founder is lame and as /u/wjnc mentioned he has a trump-like behavior. The question is very simple: If there is drugs in the shipment, does the traveller get a FREE pass?
The article is lengthy and kind of make this question vague. In my understanding it is a single question: Who bares the responsibility?
Well, it is you the poor traveller. There is no way in hell you can accept such a deal even if you are flying for Free. In fact, if you are, ask yourself the question: Do free meals really exist?
I'm glad that the author of this travel blog is warning people against using Airmule. Someone is going to get in a heckuva lot of trouble.
First: I can only imagine, when checking my bags, getting the question, "Did anyone give you anything to bring on the flight?" and answering, "Yes, my entire 2nd bag belongs to someone else who is paying for half of my ticket."
That alone would be enough to give you extra-special scrutiny when checking in.
But let's assume that you get through security, go on your flight, and arrive. I've traveled to China many times, and have thus put my bag through the customs/airport scanner many times. If they find anything illegal -- and in China, that can mean all sorts of stuff -- you are in Big Trouble. I haven't ever seen anyone pulled aside when going through customs in China, but I don't envy them.
And sure, Airmule can say that they've inspected things, and that this is safe and fun, etc. Just try telling the Chinese customs officials that the drugs don't belong to you, but rather to a startup in Silicon Valley. I'm sure they'll be very attentive.
Airmule's site attempts to calm potential couriers' nerves by saying, "Read this Wikitravel article." (Reference: http://wikitravel.org/en/Air_courier) However, the article says, very clearly:
> You need to be very careful about the legitimacy of the jobs you take. The last thing you want is to be caught
> transporting contraband (or worse) on a plane. A good way to avoid this is to use an agent (usually a
> representative of the service you are working for), who will take you through customs and clear the contents.
> Always check the reputation of the courier company before booking. None which are reliable and legitimate
> would ever try to ship anything illegal.
Airmule doesn't promise to have an agent on the arrival side. They do promise that they'll "walk you through" things, but that's very different from physically being there in China and claiming the luggage and any responsibility for it.
The idea is a good one in theory, but as executed, it's half baked -- and might lead to executions of a more literal sort, if people aren't careful.
[+] [-] greenyoda|8 years ago|reply
Also, an inevitable question when going through security checkpoints in some countries is "did you pack your own luggage". I assume that if you answer "no", you'd be subjected to a very thorough search for bombs or contraband.
Calling a company "Airmule" seems to be a particularly bad choice, since the term "mule" is commonly used to denote a person who carries smuggled drugs (sometimes concealed inside their body).
[+] [-] rl3|8 years ago|reply
No kidding. One has to wonder how the founders can't be aware of that. Perhaps it was intended as a tongue-in-cheek name?
[+] [-] tajen|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] edanm|8 years ago|reply
Yeah, but that's actually probably not the biggest problem here. A thorough search for bombs is just that - a thorough search. Some people are selected randomly for this kind of search. Unless you're actually carrying a bomb (and that is one thing this company does say it protects against), then you shouldn't have to worry about this.
(Although all the other things said against them seem exactly right to me, so I'm not in any way endorsing them.)
[+] [-] futhey|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hamburglar|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skinnymuch|8 years ago|reply
There is no way your company name should be this tongue in cheek about something that can be as serious as international drug smuggling.
At worst they should've got the domain name and made it a marketing landing page for their actual company. Not use Airmule as their actual company name.
[+] [-] smoyer|8 years ago|reply
AirMule is performing an arbitrage since the price difference is making them a profit but the airlines can't be happy about it whether or not the practice has been quietly going along for decades.
[+] [-] ivanbakel|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 2muchcoffeeman|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] randyrand|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Exuma|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GreaterFool|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] whazor|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Someone|8 years ago|reply
"Please note that, as stated above, the site, application and services are intended to be used to facilitate travelers and senders connecting and arranging item transportation directly with each other. Airmule cannot and does not control the content contained in any package and the condition, legality or suitability of any items and luggage. Airmule strongly advises each traveler to inspect each item carefully. If a traveler does suspects an item is illicit, do not transport and contact airmule. Airmule is not responsible for and disclaims any and all liability related to any and all available transportation. Accordingly, any inquiries will be made or accepted at the member’s own risk."
I don't know how long that has been there, but it is clear. They are brokers, but don't accept any liability.
[+] [-] wjnc|8 years ago|reply
Caveat emptor. Just those responses are a red flag, if the subject is legal risk surrounding smuggling to PRC. They don't want you to know.
[+] [-] rmc|8 years ago|reply
The hell with that, the company should be shut down. Some poor soul will think it's a sweet deal. They're putting people at risk of the death penalty without telling them and implying everyone is A-OK.
[+] [-] smokedoutraider|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] curiousgal|8 years ago|reply
So journalists conduct their interviews in 140-character messages nowadays? I can't help but agree with the co-founder that hit-pieces should be based on actual interviews, not a Twitter conversation, ff we're going to consider this as journalism of course. If it's just amateurish blogging then I guess that would pass.
[+] [-] jimjimjim|8 years ago|reply
and while i'm ranting. what is with founders presenting them selves as "bro's at the bar"? If the founders had bios that looked like they were from upper management at ibm i might be more likely to use their service.
[+] [-] kaishiro|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] exergy|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icelancer|8 years ago|reply
I doubt your anger is out of bounds. We are talking about potential - likely, even - smuggling of illegal goods into a country that has a human rights record that is... less than stellar. And their co-founder is childish and speaks in twisted words to try and avoid the truth.
I'd say your anger is very well-placed.
[+] [-] zbjornson|8 years ago|reply
> "We have found contraband in [courier] shipments," says U.S. Customs official Bob Fischler, "but percentage-wise it is infinitisemal. And in any seizure we made, it was obvious that the on-board courier had nothing to do with it." In fact, at New York' JFK and at London's Heathrow airport, because of the sheer volume of courier shipments, all courier pouches go to a central location for clearance. The courier is typically dismissed before customs physically inspects the shipments.
- From Air Courier Bargains by Kelly Monaghan.
[+] [-] ggggtez|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icelancer|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] inertial|8 years ago|reply
- https://grabr.io/en/
- http://www.entrusters.com/
- https://backpackbang.com/home
- https://www.piggybee.com/en/
- https://worldcraze.com/
- http://www.canubring.com/
- https://www.manyship.com/
[+] [-] jeffdavis|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jstoja|8 years ago|reply
I understand that family is important, but isn't a situation like this so important that you - at least - replace some time next week by 2hours now to answer to this article?!
Edit: made me think about this xkcd https://xkcd.com/386/
[+] [-] marcosscriven|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blisterpeanuts|8 years ago|reply
I never got up the courage to try it myself, but friends did. My girlfriend did it once.
Looking back, I realize how exceedingly stupid this was. Had there been heroin inside that camera, you were going to prison for the rest of your life. They didn't (and still don't) screw around.
I heard all sorts of stories. An Australian backpacker was caught at Korean customs with 50 Rolex watches stuffed in his shirt. He was sent up for ten years. Numerous young Americans and Europeans busted for drug smuggling were rotting in prison in Taiwan, Korea, and Japan. At the time, with these countries technically allied with us against Red China, execution was not a politically feasible alternative.
This Mule thing is just another respin of an old practice. Best to avoid.
[+] [-] e12e|8 years ago|reply
This takes things to a whole new level - you could get people to smuggle anything for next to nothing, if you packed in something else. Or, get them to blow up a plane they're on.
[+] [-] Sapph|8 years ago|reply
https://grabr.io/travel
Key difference is:
You buy the products locals ordered (locals pay for item + delivery fee upfront into escrow) so there's no risk of a third party hiding drugs or illegal materials.
[+] [-] uiri|8 years ago|reply
Kinder eggs are an example of an item that is perfectly fine in, say, Canada, but carries a heavy fine for import into the US.
[+] [-] inertial|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DrJaws|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Animats|8 years ago|reply
The US needs to renegotiate postal rates with China. China is still getting the "developing country" discount from the USPS.
[+] [-] em3rgent0rdr|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] makomk|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kobeya|8 years ago|reply
I thought imports from China was cheap because it was subsidized by the PRC?
[+] [-] nebabyte|8 years ago|reply
This guy clearly doesn't get it. Your startup page is where you post a phip relatable quirky attribute, whereas your actual qualifications go in single-phrase sentences on your twitter bio and after your name on quora answers
/s, hopefully obviously
[+] [-] chx|8 years ago|reply
http://www.loudountimes.com/news/article/cbp_officers_seize_...
[+] [-] jfoutz|8 years ago|reply
With baby formula, i'd just return the bag and apologize, eating the $99. Heroin on the other hand, i could probably move at a steep discount. $1k or so, not worth the risk. $10 or $20k? hmm. The bag needs to be worth at least $1000 in the target country, just to break even.
it seems like pretending to be a stoner, and setting up enough to buy a plane ticket could get you a lot of money for $99. Fake id and a prepaid credit card aren't that hard to come by. It's not like the ID needs to pass TSA inspection, as you're not taking the flight.
Seems like a very risky business. If your customers are willing to be pasties, it'll be ok. but just a couple of sharks completely change the risk profile. Doing stuff that precludes government enforcement of contracts is just crazy crazy risky.
[+] [-] skrause|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BayesStreet|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smsm42|8 years ago|reply
And I wonder what TSA thinks about people transporting things that they have little idea about in their luggage?
[+] [-] dawnerd|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] csomar|8 years ago|reply
The article is lengthy and kind of make this question vague. In my understanding it is a single question: Who bares the responsibility?
Well, it is you the poor traveller. There is no way in hell you can accept such a deal even if you are flying for Free. In fact, if you are, ask yourself the question: Do free meals really exist?
[+] [-] reuven|8 years ago|reply
First: I can only imagine, when checking my bags, getting the question, "Did anyone give you anything to bring on the flight?" and answering, "Yes, my entire 2nd bag belongs to someone else who is paying for half of my ticket."
That alone would be enough to give you extra-special scrutiny when checking in.
But let's assume that you get through security, go on your flight, and arrive. I've traveled to China many times, and have thus put my bag through the customs/airport scanner many times. If they find anything illegal -- and in China, that can mean all sorts of stuff -- you are in Big Trouble. I haven't ever seen anyone pulled aside when going through customs in China, but I don't envy them.
And sure, Airmule can say that they've inspected things, and that this is safe and fun, etc. Just try telling the Chinese customs officials that the drugs don't belong to you, but rather to a startup in Silicon Valley. I'm sure they'll be very attentive.
Airmule's site attempts to calm potential couriers' nerves by saying, "Read this Wikitravel article." (Reference: http://wikitravel.org/en/Air_courier) However, the article says, very clearly:
> You need to be very careful about the legitimacy of the jobs you take. The last thing you want is to be caught > transporting contraband (or worse) on a plane. A good way to avoid this is to use an agent (usually a > representative of the service you are working for), who will take you through customs and clear the contents. > Always check the reputation of the courier company before booking. None which are reliable and legitimate > would ever try to ship anything illegal.
Airmule doesn't promise to have an agent on the arrival side. They do promise that they'll "walk you through" things, but that's very different from physically being there in China and claiming the luggage and any responsibility for it.
The idea is a good one in theory, but as executed, it's half baked -- and might lead to executions of a more literal sort, if people aren't careful.