Another big brother style invention. Wonderful. I'm sure they won't sell this info to the government at any point.
My biggest issue, though, is the inequitable terms of tracking. If you live in a given neighborhood then you can opt out. Great. That gives those people preference. And treats everyone else as lesser citizens because they don't live there. We're talking about public spaces so there really shouldn't be any inequity. I think the company behind this sees the opt out ability for locals as the only way to make this palatable to people on a large scale.
Also, how is "neighborhood" defined? I assume it's by them and has some radius or something like that. And I'm also fairly certain to opt out would require me creating an account and providing my name, address, and car info (at minimum).
You want to record everything in public spaces? Fine, the law says you can do that so I respect that right. But that does not mean I am a fan of this by any stretch of the imagination. I feel like the real reason for this is something more nefarious they have planned later on - it could really be a way to finally track the remaining untrackables in our society who may be older and not have or use all the fancy tech we have today that tracks everything. It could also include people like myself that go to reasonable but not insane methods to circumvent tracking methods simply because I don't like to be tracked. There's really nothing I can do if they see me leave my house and drive to my friend's place and hang out there for 5 hours. Since I don't use social media they can't really connect that he and I are close friends without a tool like this. They can now make that association, which was previously near impossible to achieve.
The government already uses these devices. First, there's the ever-increasing use of license plate readers on patrol cars. These have spawned all over the place, not just on the cruisers, but also fixed points. Second, if you've ever driven on the Dulles Access Road from DC to Dulles Airport, sensors pickup the bluetooth ID of your tire pressure monitor, and other SIGINT/MASINT details. More cities are using SIGINT/MASINT technologies to gather all of that data.
I can't tell you how I know this, but drive just about anywhere within 20 miles of DC and everything about you that is possible is processed, cataloged, cross-references, and stored.
In the US there are neighborhoods which are not freehold property, the owners are members in a Home Owner's Association (HOA). HOA's have significant powers, and are responsible for many things in the property, sometimes even roads and water.
Gated communities fall into this class. So this camera would be targeting the HOA market, but not gated communities which have gates, locks and guards.
Personally, I don't like HOAs, and I don't like private neighborhoods. To the point that I refuse to look at property with an HOA.
I feel like the real reason for this is something more nefarious they have planned later on
I would bet money that they will be using this system for mapping and tracking for autonomous cars driving the last mile. If you want to bootstrap that localized map, then you need to have a use case that is not driverless cars currently.
Yes, they will not sell it now. But once everyone is into it thinking ahhh its a great idea and a great tool and share their private/public data though this. Then, these companies will turn around and sell your data to monetize on them which is the first thing any company is going to do.
The government already does this, in some areas on a blanket basis. This device puts the same data into the hands of citizens, evening the score. From that point of view it's a great thing.
I like the false pretense for "neighborhood protection", when really this is a lowering bar for plate collection likely for more intrusive advertising. Even if you were able to pay cash or epay system obfuscate store purchases at a retailer, they could still nab your plates.
Really, if a criminal were to drive in and loot a house in your neighborhood, what self respecting criminal wouldn't use dummy plates or a lifted car to commit robberies and at least some sort of identity obfuscation. Let's not pretend this is a noble invention.
While out in public you may not have a right to privacy, there's certainly a level of general anonymity that most of us assume. While such plate reading technology has existed for some time, now it could be easily deployed by a overbearing ex-lover to know if/when person is home or worse, a hate group outside an abortion clinic.
File this under war on privacy to further usher in a technocratic hellscape future.
Won't take long for plate data from this highly ethical YC startup to be used as blackmail/extortion material against someone who gets caught parking in the wrong driveway while their wife/husband is out of town.
Anybody have a link to the actual company? I also think they've missed the key use for this. Modelling traffic movements through a space.
Many villages/residential areas suffer from speeding and rat running, but getting a local authority to take you seriously or even get the local police to 'visit' the speeders and have a word is hard to make happen.
Community speed watch using ANPR cameras to create an average speed monitored area is HUGE. Even working out people that are using the one way road systems incorrectly helps.
This has huge application across multiple resident associations. To achieve this you need to be able to time synch, know the location of each camera, the shortest 'route' between each camera, and the ability to 'network' each camera.
Where do I invest? Hell I have 16 residents associations that would bite your hands off to get their hands on a cheap traffic profiling system.
First time I've heard of "rat running", but am having a hard time seeing the justification for the negative connotation. I can only see it as a more efficient use of the road system.
Just because at some time in the past there was less traffic in your street doesn't mean it won't (or shouldn't) increase in the future.
It seems to me that these residents associations are trying to push the problem of higher overall road use on to others that don't have such strong residents associations.
> but getting a local authority to take you seriously or even get the local police to 'visit' the speeders and have a word is hard to make happen.
Interesting, this isn't my experience. I think this is a size issue. In major cities probably. Out here in the 'burbs, I call the police about a speeder, and there's an officer with a radar gun out within the hour. Speeding tickets are nice funding for the department. Add a reckless driving on there and you got a nice doozy.
What happens more often than not though is you get two really annoying speed humps installed if enough calls about it come through.
That is the scalable solution, but I get by just fine with a trail cam pointed at my driveway. It takes 5 minutes a month to scroll through manually and check that most cars are me, my wife, or family, and then check any others.
Also unless I'm misunderstanding it doesn't seems to be capturing the speed of vehicles either, although I wonder if doing that accurately would require more precise mounting and calibration.
I was wondering if you could identify these 'sensors' somehow, but it looks like they're using cell networks, which as far as I understand means there is no plaintext unique identifier.
Does this mean something similar could be done with tracking of people via facial recognition? (Or is that different somehow?).
It's just a camera in a box, hooked up to some image recognition software. The convicted thief would have been caught just as trivially with a regular security camera.
So, the answer to your last question is "yes", same as with any other camera.
"The data is only made available to 'neighbourhood leaders'"
This is going to go over big in religious communities. Control-freak religions such as Scientology and Haredi Judaism will go for this. Both already operate sizable camera networks in areas where they have power.
Oh goodness, and polygamist groups. TLC has an interesting show called escaping polygamy, where a few people (formerly in groups) help others escape. They're routinely followed when they drive into places like Colorado city.
It would be so easy to track everyone in those cities. And that would really up the level of danger to those residents.
Are there any privacy guards that can be applied to number plates that are effective in protecting you from being tracked?
I’m immediately reminded of Jon Ronson’s article ‘Who killed Richard Cullen?’[1] where companies such as Experian sell relational geo-data on people to whatever companies want to use that data to target and potentially manipulate people.
This reminds me of the Burbclaves in the novel "Snow Crash" by Neal Stephenson. Looking at the exclusive neighborhoods and subdivisions around D.C. I can totally see this becoming a selling point, along with the gates, armed guards, etc. that already exist. Tie these sensors into a network and suddenly a wrong turn can get you put on a neighborhood "watch list" across the city.
A great addition to this would be radar to track vehicle speeds. In my neighborhood we have an issue with jerks doing 50mph down our street(speed limit is 25mph) to bypass a traffic light on an adjacent street. Kids are often out and we've had a few near misses. Most of the offenders live nearby and I'd love a way to shame them into slowing down. The city is unable and unwilling to do any enforcement or install traffic calming on our street so we don't have any other options except moving.
Would you need radar? If you have a camera pointed at the street, couldn't you use the distance traveled in successive frames to calculate a speed? If you already have one camera set up to record the tags, a second one should be easy to capture the speed.
Hey! I'm building something that's pretty much exactly this, and I'm curious if your neighbourhood has some kind of community watchgroup that would want to try prototype something like this?
Have you called local police? My neighbourhood had the same issue during some recent construction that lead to a street becoming a main thoroughfare. The neighbourhood committee requested assistance from police and they placed one of those radar/speed sign on trailers and also had more photo radar trucks set up.
A bit off-topic, but reminds me of the creative workarounds people tried when automated ticketing via speed cameras were first introduced in Arizona. One loophole was that if they weren't able to reasonably identify you in the traffic photo then the ticket wouldn't stand up in court. Some guy kept deliberately speeding by these cameras wearing a monkey mask:
I have a new product. It's called FlockOff. Basically it is a laser connected to a battery connected to a solar panel that shoot a high intensity beam of (UV? IR?) light directly at the Flock 24/7.
Also available is the FlockOff Mini. This attaches to the plate on your car bathing it in IR light 24/7.
Good times.
Note: I don't actually know what I'm talking about here.
I could actually consider such system for my neighborhood, but only if it is off-line (i.e. nobody can access the data, unless I decide to deposit some during a crime investigation). A bit like a ATM security camera.
I would not mind to have the data being discarded after X days for instance. Since it is supposed to be used to make a case of crime, if no crime was reported there is no need to keep the data.
Also, they would have to make sure that the data collected is receivable by the justice system. Otherwise it would be pointless.
As if pockets of sheltered NIMBYs just existing wasn't bad enough, let's now make tools for them to enforce their own mini-police state for their already-gated neighborhoods!
The Big One™ that hits and sends all of Silicon Valley crashing into the Pacific can't come soon enough...
Why does YC invest in anything? I think it's because they see the potential to make money. I believe you are correct, there are YC ethical rules, but I don't think Sam and company have any qualms about violating those ethics for themselves, or even holding themselves to any ethics at all. If it makes money, they invest. Only when something bad happens do ethics suddenly become an issue.
IanCal, sorry you feel this way. Our goal is simply to help police do their job. Today, only 13% of crime is solved due to lack of evidence. We are trying to help drive that number to 100% and eliminate crime in our neighborhoods.
It was going to happen regardless, but it makes me deeply cynical to see this infrastructure going up in the folksy tone of "neighborhood safety." I guess to justify erecting yet another component of the massive surveillance apparatus, you have to have a startup-ey landing page and cool logo. I would prefer to see this announced on a dingy government website, or even signs on every corner stating "all movement is tracked" installed by bureaucratic decree. At least then we'd be honest with what we're creating.
This is sketchy. The desire for absolute security can only end in a total surveillance state.
This kind of surveillance makes a mockery of the concept of privacy and anonymity. Nor only is data collected but it is stored enabling profiling.
The whole point of rule of law is to find common ground to temper out of control self interest. This is akin to stalking people going about their daily lives and should be illegal.
Why is YC supporting this. Why is anyone supporting this? Unless you take a stand minute to minute surveillance of everyone's lives will become the new normal.
IMO this is the kind of AI hazard that Musk et al are decrying. Imagine if you could pay someone astronomically small amounts of money (0.05 USD/day) to do some menial task like this. Imagine now that their work would be very consistent and pretty good quality. The entire world is filled with "the obscurity of mundane activity" for which it makes no sense to track. But there is a utility to tracking this mundane activity (deterring/investigating crime in the case of this device). And as you point out there's a huge downside to tracking/mining this mundane activity.
It is a valuable, good thing that anyone's activity in public can be summarized, written down, recorded on video/audio. This way we can punish criminals and corrupt officials.
The protections from the US Bill of Rights don't shield us from law enforcement doing the same. In the past this has been (mostly?) a net benefit. If you commit crimes in public or leave evidence of a crime in public and it's found by investigators, it does not constitute "unreasonable search" of the government.
Should this be legal? It's a tough call IMO. I recognize the enormous potential for abuse, but this seems more beneficial than harmful. I would not be surprised if we cross a threshold where the amount of information gathered has more potential for harm than good in the next decade or two.
It's absolutely legal. Anything in public you can photograph, record, monitor, etc. A different question to ask is: Should this be legal when certain data points, such as a license plate number, are required to be public, and the state forces you to disclose these.
[+] [-] turc1656|8 years ago|reply
My biggest issue, though, is the inequitable terms of tracking. If you live in a given neighborhood then you can opt out. Great. That gives those people preference. And treats everyone else as lesser citizens because they don't live there. We're talking about public spaces so there really shouldn't be any inequity. I think the company behind this sees the opt out ability for locals as the only way to make this palatable to people on a large scale.
Also, how is "neighborhood" defined? I assume it's by them and has some radius or something like that. And I'm also fairly certain to opt out would require me creating an account and providing my name, address, and car info (at minimum).
You want to record everything in public spaces? Fine, the law says you can do that so I respect that right. But that does not mean I am a fan of this by any stretch of the imagination. I feel like the real reason for this is something more nefarious they have planned later on - it could really be a way to finally track the remaining untrackables in our society who may be older and not have or use all the fancy tech we have today that tracks everything. It could also include people like myself that go to reasonable but not insane methods to circumvent tracking methods simply because I don't like to be tracked. There's really nothing I can do if they see me leave my house and drive to my friend's place and hang out there for 5 hours. Since I don't use social media they can't really connect that he and I are close friends without a tool like this. They can now make that association, which was previously near impossible to achieve.
[+] [-] Overtonwindow|8 years ago|reply
I can't tell you how I know this, but drive just about anywhere within 20 miles of DC and everything about you that is possible is processed, cataloged, cross-references, and stored.
[+] [-] jpollock|8 years ago|reply
Gated communities fall into this class. So this camera would be targeting the HOA market, but not gated communities which have gates, locks and guards.
Personally, I don't like HOAs, and I don't like private neighborhoods. To the point that I refuse to look at property with an HOA.
[+] [-] AndrewKemendo|8 years ago|reply
I would bet money that they will be using this system for mapping and tracking for autonomous cars driving the last mile. If you want to bootstrap that localized map, then you need to have a use case that is not driverless cars currently.
[+] [-] aivijay|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hammock|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Danihan|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fuzzywalrus|8 years ago|reply
Really, if a criminal were to drive in and loot a house in your neighborhood, what self respecting criminal wouldn't use dummy plates or a lifted car to commit robberies and at least some sort of identity obfuscation. Let's not pretend this is a noble invention.
While out in public you may not have a right to privacy, there's certainly a level of general anonymity that most of us assume. While such plate reading technology has existed for some time, now it could be easily deployed by a overbearing ex-lover to know if/when person is home or worse, a hate group outside an abortion clinic.
File this under war on privacy to further usher in a technocratic hellscape future.
[+] [-] 659087|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] awjr|8 years ago|reply
Many villages/residential areas suffer from speeding and rat running, but getting a local authority to take you seriously or even get the local police to 'visit' the speeders and have a word is hard to make happen.
Community speed watch using ANPR cameras to create an average speed monitored area is HUGE. Even working out people that are using the one way road systems incorrectly helps.
This has huge application across multiple resident associations. To achieve this you need to be able to time synch, know the location of each camera, the shortest 'route' between each camera, and the ability to 'network' each camera.
Where do I invest? Hell I have 16 residents associations that would bite your hands off to get their hands on a cheap traffic profiling system.
[+] [-] tfnw|8 years ago|reply
Just because at some time in the past there was less traffic in your street doesn't mean it won't (or shouldn't) increase in the future.
It seems to me that these residents associations are trying to push the problem of higher overall road use on to others that don't have such strong residents associations.
[+] [-] treehau5|8 years ago|reply
Interesting, this isn't my experience. I think this is a size issue. In major cities probably. Out here in the 'burbs, I call the police about a speeder, and there's an officer with a radar gun out within the hour. Speeding tickets are nice funding for the department. Add a reckless driving on there and you got a nice doozy.
What happens more often than not though is you get two really annoying speed humps installed if enough calls about it come through.
[+] [-] awjr|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] naeemtee|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NKCSS|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] garrettlangley|8 years ago|reply
feel free to drop us a line -- sales [at] flocksafety.com
[+] [-] KaiserPro|8 years ago|reply
A cheap hi-res outdoor day/night webcam (~$150) A server running openalpr (https://github.com/openalpr/openalpr)
Job done
[+] [-] ghostbrainalpha|8 years ago|reply
Sometimes they get photos of the thieves from their security systems, but they NEVER get plate numbers. This could be an awesome solution.
[+] [-] LeifCarrotson|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gridscomputing|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anfractuosity|8 years ago|reply
Also unless I'm misunderstanding it doesn't seems to be capturing the speed of vehicles either, although I wonder if doing that accurately would require more precise mounting and calibration.
I was wondering if you could identify these 'sensors' somehow, but it looks like they're using cell networks, which as far as I understand means there is no plaintext unique identifier.
Does this mean something similar could be done with tracking of people via facial recognition? (Or is that different somehow?).
[+] [-] pavel_lishin|8 years ago|reply
So, the answer to your last question is "yes", same as with any other camera.
[+] [-] Animats|8 years ago|reply
This is going to go over big in religious communities. Control-freak religions such as Scientology and Haredi Judaism will go for this. Both already operate sizable camera networks in areas where they have power.
[+] [-] froindt|8 years ago|reply
It would be so easy to track everyone in those cities. And that would really up the level of danger to those residents.
[+] [-] mrmondo|8 years ago|reply
I’m immediately reminded of Jon Ronson’s article ‘Who killed Richard Cullen?’[1] where companies such as Experian sell relational geo-data on people to whatever companies want to use that data to target and potentially manipulate people.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/money/2005/jul/16/creditcards.de...
[+] [-] Overtonwindow|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] have_faith|8 years ago|reply
I don't want mob delivered justice based on bad data.
[+] [-] mmmBacon|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] criddell|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] naeemtee|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] giarc|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] glitcher|8 years ago|reply
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix-traffic/20...
[+] [-] infectoid|8 years ago|reply
Also available is the FlockOff Mini. This attaches to the plate on your car bathing it in IR light 24/7.
Good times.
Note: I don't actually know what I'm talking about here.
[+] [-] llsf|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] garrettlangley|8 years ago|reply
some neighborhoods give every resident unlimited access while others require a police report before logging in.
[+] [-] Dirlewanger|8 years ago|reply
The Big One™ that hits and sends all of Silicon Valley crashing into the Pacific can't come soon enough...
[+] [-] IanCal|8 years ago|reply
Why did YC invest in this? Are there published ethical rules YC tries to follow?
[+] [-] Overtonwindow|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] garrettlangley|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brightball|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] garrettlangley|8 years ago|reply
this is garrett (co-founder of Flock)
[+] [-] imcrs|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throw2016|8 years ago|reply
This kind of surveillance makes a mockery of the concept of privacy and anonymity. Nor only is data collected but it is stored enabling profiling.
The whole point of rule of law is to find common ground to temper out of control self interest. This is akin to stalking people going about their daily lives and should be illegal.
Why is YC supporting this. Why is anyone supporting this? Unless you take a stand minute to minute surveillance of everyone's lives will become the new normal.
[+] [-] dmitrygr|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] amelius|8 years ago|reply
Shouldn't there be a law against building databases containing other people's data?
[+] [-] wyldfire|8 years ago|reply
It is a valuable, good thing that anyone's activity in public can be summarized, written down, recorded on video/audio. This way we can punish criminals and corrupt officials.
The protections from the US Bill of Rights don't shield us from law enforcement doing the same. In the past this has been (mostly?) a net benefit. If you commit crimes in public or leave evidence of a crime in public and it's found by investigators, it does not constitute "unreasonable search" of the government.
Should this be legal? It's a tough call IMO. I recognize the enormous potential for abuse, but this seems more beneficial than harmful. I would not be surprised if we cross a threshold where the amount of information gathered has more potential for harm than good in the next decade or two.
[+] [-] Overtonwindow|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pjc50|8 years ago|reply
This is exactly covered by EU data protection law.