It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake.
Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto suspending the Catalonian autonomy and basically abandoning any democratic dialog.
Now, there is no going back. I wish the best of luck to my friends in Catalonia. Shall they be allowed to express their desire to leave or stay in Spain in peace. I wish no one to get hurt during these turbulent weeks.
Playing devils advocate: Spain has a constitution that was signed by Catalonian reps in the 70s. It's the constitution which prevents the referendum from happening. (I believe for a referendum to be constitutional, Spain's "federal" parliament would have to agree to it and the whole country would have to vote).
Personally I feel this whole comparison between the 2 situations highlights the cultural differences: consensus seeking anglo-saxons, conflict/imposition-driven Hispanics/Latins. (non-hispanic latin here)
"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake."
That referendum was restricted to two options, what the UK government wanted and what they thought was too extreme a position to win. By excluding the middle way option, which polling suggested would win they hoped to get their own position rubber stamped.
The fact that it came so close us a testament to how badly they played their hand.
It's hard to try to explain the true here when secessionists are brigading but you aren't serious, really.
Since 1977, Catalans had participated in 35 free elections, and in 3 referendums. The Catalans have their own government, and there are politicians born in Catalonia successfully in the Spanish Parliament, and in the European Parliament.
Where you don't see freedom?
If someone wants to change the Spanish Constitution, there's a legal way to do it.
Uh, you remember how indyref was Cameron gambling the cohecion of his country for the opportunity to steal a policy issue from the opposition? The idea that indyref was allowed out of respect of popular will is utterly deluded, Cameron never cared for the scots as they are too left to vote for him.
"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves"
The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal)
> Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto suspending the Catalonian autonomy and basically abandoning any democratic dialog.
The irony is that many who support the independence of Catalonia are against independence of current EU member states and fail to see the inherent dangers in the centralization of power (many such dangers exemplified by this very article and listed by you).
It's been 80 years since the Spanish Civil War, yet I can't help but wonder whether its influence is being felt today with BS maneuvers like this. What would Spain be like today if Franco hadn't been helped into power in the 30s by (among other infamous parties who shall remain nameless) Ford Motors, General Motors, and the Catholic Church?
You’re not in a democracy, it’s a representative parliament system. Same almost worldwide. There’s a difference.
Many of modern so called democracies though referendums are not the best way to solve these issues. Read up on how it worked for the Ancient Greeks or how the American constitution fathers talk about “direct democracy”.
Then think how it worked out for Brexit. It’s nothign new: ancient Greeks also got fired up by propaganda and later regretted their own decisions. Socrates came up with his “government of the fit” watching his contemporaries claim for bad things only to regret it when it was too late.
Essentially: a referendum is like saying “every single citizen has enough information and vision to do whatever is best for the country”. I find that pretty optimistic to say the least.
I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but:
You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corruption. Public workers have been pressured to accept participation in the referendum (which is ilegal to do).
And just to finish: if you’re going to reference any prior “referendum” know that it’s not only ilegal like this one (thus no observers, nor accurate census) but also take into account participation (usually very low).
In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence.
Sure, how are they oppressed? In 1938 Barcelona was bombed because the army wanted to destroy the republic and what existed of Catalonia autonomy. So any existing Catalonia autonomy or democracy of any form was crushed in 1939, replaced by a military dictatorship, and only started to recover in 1977-1978. The Spanish dictatorship killed thousands of Catalans after the 1939 takeover.
The same forces in Spanish society who did that are the same forces which seek to destroy Catalan autonomy again. By the same means, policemen kicking down the door. You dismiss prior referendums, fine. There is going to be one in 11 days. So if those polls you cite are true, then it seems independence will not happen. It's bizarre to call a referendum in ten days "outrageously undemocratic", while decades of a brutal dictatorship established by an invasion and the murder of thousands afterward goes without mention.
> "In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence."
So why not just let the vote go ahead and get it over with?
> The people leading this movement in Catalonia is riddled with corruption
Every single party in Spain is riddled with corruption. But it doesn't mean they can't defend some ideology anymore. Besides, this is not some crazy politician's idea, but a movement from people ranging from the far left to the Christian democracy. Some parties changed their positions to "ride the wave", though.
> There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence.
And how you know that? Polls? Polls means nothing. They can say whatever their planners want them to say.
"You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say."
It's understandable given the filibusterism, and outright prohibitions you would expect from the central government. Referendum has been proposed for 7 years and it was rejected every time.
Catalonia has less corruption than Spain in average. Even though the National Police and the judiciary have a very strong bias in favor of spanish parties.
> There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence.
Madrid would not react as brutally as they do if their intelligence services foresee such a result; they would just protest and deny vote legitimacy as they usually did the previous times, and let the vote be.
We should of course be sceptical, but at the same time it seems that Spain is active so heavy handed in this and related matters that they are almost trying to make this go violent.
> In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence
Do you have sources, because the last I know is from El Periodico (against independence) and the amount of people supporting a referendum was almost 80%
When I was dating a Croatian girl, I asked her which country reminded her most of pre-war Yugoslavia.
"Spain," she said, without skipping a beat. "It's eerily similar. All power and wealth flowing to the capital in the center of the country? Check. Generations-long repression of regional, cultural, and linguistic diversity? Check. Awkward tendency to rewrite history to avoid open discussion of WWII-era atrocities? Check. A staunch refusal by the central government to engage in meaningful dialogue with aggrieved regions and peoples? Check. Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations, inspiring ever-more-radical nationalism... All the ingredients are there."
"Nah," I said. "Spain's a stable republic! There's no way it'll descend into a Yugoslavia-style death fest."
She just arched her eyebrow. "War was unthinkable to us right up until the moment the JNA started shelling us. It's a miracle Spain's still one country, honestly."
The more I learn -- about both Yugoslavia and Spain -- the more I fear she was right.
"Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations" "Spain's a stable republic" It's saddens me to see so much ignorance and nonsense. Keeping aside that Spain is a monarchy, in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish, mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals... that is a little example of the "oppresion" you talk about. They have pushed the government to the limit and they have to do something.
Yugoslavia and Spain has nothing to do. For a start, we are a Monarchy .
Maybe you should start with the basics about European history. Yugoslavia had a terrible civil war and they broke in pieces. There was no reason to keep on together. Spain had a more terrible civil war and Spain still exists as it was before.
The history of Catalonia says that they have never really fought for independence. They are always looking for economical benefits. Except anarchist which I think they really want to shock the system, the new-born "Indepes" will never stand up in arms to fight for the independence of Catalonia.
The country that looks most likely to split (in Europe) to me is Belgium, not Spain.
But then predicting geopolitical changes is the same as predicting Black Swans: the Berlin wall will stand forever right until the moment it wont; The Soviet Union is just there until it is no more; nothing can stand the Nazi war machine; those scrappy colonists have no chance against the English empire.
It's Spain, the politicians in the government are using it to cover that they have more than 800 members of their party being under investigation or even prosecuted from corruption. The governing party is being investigated for having using black money to pay for elections among other things like getting rich. They embrace themselves inside the Spanish flag and the unity of the country.
Funny to see all these Non-Spanish commenters that think they know what they're talking about. My wife is from Barcelona. I just spent 2 weeks there. Most Catalonians think the split, and the minority of people seeking it are fucking stupid. They are the Trumpsters of Spain. Truly strange to see most people here supporting the separatists. I don't necessarily agree with Spain's methods of dealing with this but many of you have got it wrong. Like, badly wrong.
If not being Spanish prevents one from having informed opinions, what makes you right?
Since we measuring Spanish penises, I'm half-Spanish myself and I find the characterization of "Trumpists" to be absurd. Yes, they are probably a minority, but so what? As for finding them fucking stupid, that's just politics, especially nowadays. Lots of people find Podemos to be fucking stupid, yet they still got 20%+ of the whole population vote.
In any case, people here are arguing for the principle, not the people. The analogy is not with supporting Trump, it's with defending his right to run at all. Now, the cases are different, but the point stands: defending the right to a referendum is not the same as defending a certain result.
- judge told .cat TLD to take over some domains, setting them to display a spanish police landing page.
- .cat complied.
- Judge told .cat TLD to censor any domain that does support the referendum in any way.
- .cat replied that they run a TLD, that it's not their job to act as a censorship agency, inspecting each domain and disabling those that host websites that talk about topics that a judge specified are forbidden.
The internet is not isolated from the physical world. Some times "the cloud" seems like an ethereal place, but in the end there are servers somewhere with hardware that can break, that needs maintenance and that can be confiscated by the government. Technology doesn't solves political problems, it just makes governments more efficient.
It's really funny listening to the President of the government of Catalonia talking about repression when his salary is 145.471 euros, and the President of the government of Spain salary is 78.185,04 euros.
Yep, the public salary of many presidents of a part of Spain is bigger than the president of the whole.
That's for give you a picture of the current craziness.
You won't get many responses because the PC thing is to side with Catalonia, but this is the whole story: a money grab scheme. It's been going on for ages. With B- debt rating, collapsing health care system, and massive public spending on things like the one you mention, they simply need money. Plan post-independence is to seize all public assets belonging to the Spanish state (funds, buildings, public companies, ...), while retaining their first customer (the rest of Spain), pay no tariffs (stay in EU), and no taxes to central state.
Before anyone answer with "but the Spanish state too": yes, same shit, which doesn't invalidate anything I said.
At this point, what is happening in Catalonia is not a fight for Independence; it is a fight for Democracy and against the authoritarianism of the central government.
Catalan institutions have been raided, Catalan members of the government have been arrested, and their crime is to work towards allowing Catalans vote about their future.
This is a good example of the breakdown of the westphalian concept of nation-state. The people have the right to divorce and the state has the right to maintain its unity against all.
It's like Spain is trying to push Catalonians to violence.
> This is a good example of the breakdown of the westphalian concept of nation-state.
Your premise is contradictory. You're claiming that Catalonia trying to form its own nation-state is a proof that the nation-state is breaking down. The exact opposite is the case: the nation-state is so desirable that Catalonia wants to form its own.
Under the assumption that for the next 10-20 years Catalonia wouldn't be allowed to join the EU, could someone of the pro separate group explain how a independent state of Catalonia is supposed to survive?
This has very little to do with internet freedom etc; Catalonia has threatened to leave Spain via a referendum. There are very few things countries will not do to keep the country together. Think of "war on terror" on steroids.
[+] [-] iagooar|8 years ago|reply
Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto suspending the Catalonian autonomy and basically abandoning any democratic dialog.
Now, there is no going back. I wish the best of luck to my friends in Catalonia. Shall they be allowed to express their desire to leave or stay in Spain in peace. I wish no one to get hurt during these turbulent weeks.
[+] [-] 627467|8 years ago|reply
Personally I feel this whole comparison between the 2 situations highlights the cultural differences: consensus seeking anglo-saxons, conflict/imposition-driven Hispanics/Latins. (non-hispanic latin here)
[+] [-] ZeroGravitas|8 years ago|reply
That referendum was restricted to two options, what the UK government wanted and what they thought was too extreme a position to win. By excluding the middle way option, which polling suggested would win they hoped to get their own position rubber stamped.
The fact that it came so close us a testament to how badly they played their hand.
See also Brexit.
[+] [-] notspanishflu|8 years ago|reply
Since 1977, Catalans had participated in 35 free elections, and in 3 referendums. The Catalans have their own government, and there are politicians born in Catalonia successfully in the Spanish Parliament, and in the European Parliament.
Where you don't see freedom?
If someone wants to change the Spanish Constitution, there's a legal way to do it.
[+] [-] jawbone3|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mcdevilkiller|8 years ago|reply
The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal)
[+] [-] jimmaswell|8 years ago|reply
This isn't really true. You can get arrested for "offensive" social media posts in the UK.
[+] [-] pfortuny|8 years ago|reply
The rule of law applies also to politicians.
[+] [-] jfaucett|8 years ago|reply
The irony is that many who support the independence of Catalonia are against independence of current EU member states and fail to see the inherent dangers in the centralization of power (many such dangers exemplified by this very article and listed by you).
[+] [-] rdiddly|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gfiorav|8 years ago|reply
Many of modern so called democracies though referendums are not the best way to solve these issues. Read up on how it worked for the Ancient Greeks or how the American constitution fathers talk about “direct democracy”.
Then think how it worked out for Brexit. It’s nothign new: ancient Greeks also got fired up by propaganda and later regretted their own decisions. Socrates came up with his “government of the fit” watching his contemporaries claim for bad things only to regret it when it was too late.
Essentially: a referendum is like saying “every single citizen has enough information and vision to do whatever is best for the country”. I find that pretty optimistic to say the least.
[+] [-] gfiorav|8 years ago|reply
You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corruption. Public workers have been pressured to accept participation in the referendum (which is ilegal to do).
And just to finish: if you’re going to reference any prior “referendum” know that it’s not only ilegal like this one (thus no observers, nor accurate census) but also take into account participation (usually very low).
In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence.
[+] [-] balance_factor|8 years ago|reply
Sure, how are they oppressed? In 1938 Barcelona was bombed because the army wanted to destroy the republic and what existed of Catalonia autonomy. So any existing Catalonia autonomy or democracy of any form was crushed in 1939, replaced by a military dictatorship, and only started to recover in 1977-1978. The Spanish dictatorship killed thousands of Catalans after the 1939 takeover.
The same forces in Spanish society who did that are the same forces which seek to destroy Catalan autonomy again. By the same means, policemen kicking down the door. You dismiss prior referendums, fine. There is going to be one in 11 days. So if those polls you cite are true, then it seems independence will not happen. It's bizarre to call a referendum in ten days "outrageously undemocratic", while decades of a brutal dictatorship established by an invasion and the murder of thousands afterward goes without mention.
[+] [-] dazc|8 years ago|reply
So why not just let the vote go ahead and get it over with?
[+] [-] severino|8 years ago|reply
Every single party in Spain is riddled with corruption. But it doesn't mean they can't defend some ideology anymore. Besides, this is not some crazy politician's idea, but a movement from people ranging from the far left to the Christian democracy. Some parties changed their positions to "ride the wave", though.
> There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence.
And how you know that? Polls? Polls means nothing. They can say whatever their planners want them to say.
[+] [-] oriol16|8 years ago|reply
It's understandable given the filibusterism, and outright prohibitions you would expect from the central government. Referendum has been proposed for 7 years and it was rejected every time.
Catalonia has less corruption than Spain in average. Even though the National Police and the judiciary have a very strong bias in favor of spanish parties.
[+] [-] wott|8 years ago|reply
Madrid would not react as brutally as they do if their intelligence services foresee such a result; they would just protest and deny vote legitimacy as they usually did the previous times, and let the vote be.
[+] [-] tomjen3|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Oletros|8 years ago|reply
Do you have sources, because the last I know is from El Periodico (against independence) and the amount of people supporting a referendum was almost 80%
[+] [-] monodeldiablo|8 years ago|reply
"Spain," she said, without skipping a beat. "It's eerily similar. All power and wealth flowing to the capital in the center of the country? Check. Generations-long repression of regional, cultural, and linguistic diversity? Check. Awkward tendency to rewrite history to avoid open discussion of WWII-era atrocities? Check. A staunch refusal by the central government to engage in meaningful dialogue with aggrieved regions and peoples? Check. Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations, inspiring ever-more-radical nationalism... All the ingredients are there."
"Nah," I said. "Spain's a stable republic! There's no way it'll descend into a Yugoslavia-style death fest."
She just arched her eyebrow. "War was unthinkable to us right up until the moment the JNA started shelling us. It's a miracle Spain's still one country, honestly."
The more I learn -- about both Yugoslavia and Spain -- the more I fear she was right.
[+] [-] dawkins|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] logronoide|8 years ago|reply
Maybe you should start with the basics about European history. Yugoslavia had a terrible civil war and they broke in pieces. There was no reason to keep on together. Spain had a more terrible civil war and Spain still exists as it was before.
The history of Catalonia says that they have never really fought for independence. They are always looking for economical benefits. Except anarchist which I think they really want to shock the system, the new-born "Indepes" will never stand up in arms to fight for the independence of Catalonia.
[+] [-] tomjen3|8 years ago|reply
But then predicting geopolitical changes is the same as predicting Black Swans: the Berlin wall will stand forever right until the moment it wont; The Soviet Union is just there until it is no more; nothing can stand the Nazi war machine; those scrappy colonists have no chance against the English empire.
[+] [-] umanwizard|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dazc|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] plehoux|8 years ago|reply
The only reason Quebec is not a country is that the Canadian government kept a 'somewhat' cool head during the two referendums.
Breaking Point is a damn good CBC documentary about the Quebec referendum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl7lOundk4Y
[+] [-] ghostDancer|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mabbo|8 years ago|reply
I didn't see that sort of thing during the Scottish referendum, and I sure don't see it in Catalan.
[+] [-] notatoad|8 years ago|reply
(the spanish police seem to be raiding anything that could potentially be related to catalonian independence)
[+] [-] Mc_Big_G|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icebraining|8 years ago|reply
Since we measuring Spanish penises, I'm half-Spanish myself and I find the characterization of "Trumpists" to be absurd. Yes, they are probably a minority, but so what? As for finding them fucking stupid, that's just politics, especially nowadays. Lots of people find Podemos to be fucking stupid, yet they still got 20%+ of the whole population vote.
In any case, people here are arguing for the principle, not the people. The analogy is not with supporting Trump, it's with defending his right to run at all. Now, the cases are different, but the point stands: defending the right to a referendum is not the same as defending a certain result.
[+] [-] gfiorav|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oriol16|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rcarmo|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] descala|8 years ago|reply
The JS in the source is really sad, one of the options click baits you to an Spanish sports newspaper.
[+] [-] snvzz|8 years ago|reply
- judge told .cat TLD to take over some domains, setting them to display a spanish police landing page.
- .cat complied.
- Judge told .cat TLD to censor any domain that does support the referendum in any way.
- .cat replied that they run a TLD, that it's not their job to act as a censorship agency, inspecting each domain and disabling those that host websites that talk about topics that a judge specified are forbidden.
- .cat notified the ICANN of the situation they're in: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/lineros...
- police raided the TLD office, and arrested its CTO at his home.
This is in some EU member country in western Europe.
[+] [-] kartan|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] notspanishflu|8 years ago|reply
Yep, the public salary of many presidents of a part of Spain is bigger than the president of the whole.
That's for give you a picture of the current craziness.
[+] [-] bassman9000|8 years ago|reply
Before anyone answer with "but the Spanish state too": yes, same shit, which doesn't invalidate anything I said.
edit: wording
[+] [-] Markoff|8 years ago|reply
prior this mess, most of the people were against leaving, after this I am not so sure...
[+] [-] IncRnd|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 6t6t6t6|8 years ago|reply
Catalan institutions have been raided, Catalan members of the government have been arrested, and their crime is to work towards allowing Catalans vote about their future.
[+] [-] justin66|8 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence
[+] [-] 627467|8 years ago|reply
It's like Spain is trying to push Catalonians to violence.
[+] [-] adventured|8 years ago|reply
Your premise is contradictory. You're claiming that Catalonia trying to form its own nation-state is a proof that the nation-state is breaking down. The exact opposite is the case: the nation-state is so desirable that Catalonia wants to form its own.
[+] [-] tobltobs|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tryingagainbro|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dogma1138|8 years ago|reply
/s
[+] [-] sunshi23|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] victornomad|8 years ago|reply