I cannot stand these articles. It's time for the whole suburban-liberal "follow your dreams and go to college" attitude to abruptly implode.
Don't waste your time reading this article. I can sum it up for you:
1.) The first subject in this article is a theater major who has been in college for over six years.
2.) The second subject is paying a lease on a new vehicle and had studied abroad in Italy, despite barely earning above minimum wage.
There's no beating around the bush; you can't fix stupid. I have very little sympathy for people who effectively squandered what little they had instead of at least making an attempt at good decision making. To fight and lose is one thing. To say you were doomed from the start and that fighting would be a waste of your time is another.
You're asking people who are freaking 17 years-old to have excellent decision making skills and awareness of what industry will be in half a decade when you get out.
WHO IS THAT SMART? WHO IS THAT AWARE? I just got lucky cause I liked computers, was nerdy, and did decently on exams. I assume most other programmers are the same. I didn't know anything about SV (grew up in rural Kentucky) - I didn't know what the industry was like. I just believed Google when it said I would get a job. Don't act like we all thought very hard and carefully, meticulously planned out whether the thing we enjoyed would be profitable. Most people were 17.
If you were 17 or 18 when you decided to go to college, it probably wasn't a very well-thought out decision. The fact that you look at such students with such ire and derision for wanting a better life and working for that is so heartbreaking and pathetic. There are much more productive places to direct your malice than the students themselves.
You don't have to feel bad for people who made worse decisions than you. Congratulations, people make bad decisions. It's more productive to ask ourselves, "Why?" and "How can we prevent this" and "What can these people do now" rather than just getting all "old man yells at cloud" about "suburban-liberals". Lemme tell you real quick. I know people from every end of the damn political spectrum in this situation, so whatever political image you're projecting onto these students is just nonsense. It isn't a "liberal snowflake" or "feminist" problem or whatever else whacked out narrative you have in your head. The only conclusion you've come to is that teenagers are make bad decisions.
A lot of students of this generation felt that their only way to success was through college. It isn't because they're dumb. It isn't because they're "lazy". It's because they made the wrong decision. Let's all try and be a little more productive and ask "Now what?".
> It's time for the whole suburban-liberal "follow your dreams and go to college" attitude to abruptly implode.
So you're saying it's time to drop the illusions and admit that most people will never be professionals with six-figure salaries, thus dramatically increasing class consciousness and ushering in the workers' revolution?
I don't think that's going to be politically popular.
I agree completely about the attitude, but would blame a different group of people. To put it in terms as blunt as yours: when people are told lies from morning till night, and kept in cages for eighteen years until they're too broken to tell the difference between lies and truth, the real culprits for the disastrous results are not the victims of these policies.
> The brand-new white Hyundai Elantra was $17,000; her monthly payments, $262.
Wow, that's more expensive than the car I bought (and felt guilty about) as a newly employed software developer. I wonder if we should be offering financial counseling in addition to financial aid.
Financial counseling should be required in high school. It would benefit the poorest the most.
I'm not surprised about the new Elantra. People who grow up poor are not socialized to make good financial decisions. (People who grow up rich often make bad decisions too, but they don't suffer as much from them.)
Unfortunately, we have a system where poor college students are able to dig themselves into massive debt. Huge student loans are given to people who have no chance of repaying them, and it's possible for someone in dire financial straits to finance a new car. It's a miracle we haven't had a mass default bring down the entire student loan system yet.
For a brand new car that's not the a lot, the problem is she bought a brand new car.
Americans are being groomed to think in monthly payments rather than the total cost which leads to silly decisions like buying a brand new car instead of a getting a used car.
The article says she had some "poor advising" at the community college and she is currently trying to get a degree in music theater.
Liz spent 6 years enrolled at a community college without getting a degree and then transferred to a school to work on bachelors where she thinks she'll need to spend another 2.5 years. It doesn't really give the details of what happened during those 6 years, but if she was able to stay enrolled for 12 semesters without getting an associate degree there seem to be problems that go much deeper than a lack of resources to go to school.
If the advisors were seriously giving her advice that would prevent her from getting a 2-year degree in 6 years (even allowing for her trying to figure out what she wanted to study) the school should be liable.
> Like many students, she took classes she didn’t need, partly due to poor advising and partly because she was feeling her way toward a major.
I taught at a community college. A lot of people there are really just feeling around for what to do with their lives. A lot of them also didn't do so well in high school and needed to skip ACT/SAT requirements to get in to a 4 year school to do what they really needed. This translates into lots of general ed classes/GPA boosters.
When a student doesn't know what they want to do, it's hard to give them good advice. And if they didn't take school seriously in high school, it's harder for them to start doing it more seriously now.
Combine that with not knowing where you're sleeping that night, or trying to concentrate on an empty stomach, and yea, it'll take you a while to dig out.
I learned a lot of empathy teaching at a community college. Now, sure, we could talk about "personal responsibility", but there are a lot of things at play here. Lots of responsibility to share.
I transferred out of community college, and I can definitely confirm that it is possible to stay there for pretty much forever without making meaningful progress, as long as you don't flunk out.
It was also very frustrating to transfer out. The transfer office made multiple mistakes that would have prevented my transfer if I had not noticed them myself. This was at a California community college with one of the highest transfer rates in the state.
Unfortunately, people who grow up poor are not socialized to be persistent and successful in navigating the kind of bureaucratic systems one encounters in college admissions, transfers, and student loans. So, I'm not surprised Liz was stuck in community college for a long time, although 6 years is excessive.
As a person who almost didn't attend a school and dropped out from university, I can confidently say that many (if not most) schools and universities across the globe are completely useless. You may think I'm kidding or exaggerating. But seriously, what exactly they are "teaching"? For most part, I've seen school/university teachers who never care to explain core ideas, instead their so called "teaching" is mostly about mindless memorization. Since I was a kid, I always frustrated how stupid my teachers were.
I ended up studying practically everything on my own (except reading/writing/elementary math which my grandpa taught me).
I learned myself how to write programs when I was 10/11 years old. My parents were not programmers, so I had no help.
I lived in Uzbekistan, Russia, Sweden, the Netherlands. I'm working as a software engineer since 2009 (I started my career working at internet-club in 2002/2003).
I can confidently tell that most of "experts" (in whatever field) who have so called "higher education" diploma don't understand a damn thing.
Cost of education = cost of books, nothing more!
If you have luxury to have internet access (no sarcasm, I didn't had internet access till 2002/2003), then add cost of your personal computing device (again no sarcasm, I had only 8-bit ZX Spectrum till 2000!) and internet access subscription.
Peter Thiel has a similar view on "higher education" system:
> most of "experts" (in whatever field) who have so called "higher education" diploma don't understand a damn thing.
While this is generally true of the charlatan fields like psychology and sociology that can't even replicate their own results, I'd hazard to guess that Moore's Law is entirely reliant on Ph.D.-level work in materials science, etc.
The most astounding thing reading the comments are from people that are pretty well of condemning some poor folk that are making mistakes. These people have not seen success, therefore it very difficult for them to come out of these situations. Countless articles have demonstrated how a majority of poor kids going to college have a tough time graduating. I am so happy to be living in a state where these issues are getting discussed.
[+] [-] seabird|8 years ago|reply
Don't waste your time reading this article. I can sum it up for you:
1.) The first subject in this article is a theater major who has been in college for over six years. 2.) The second subject is paying a lease on a new vehicle and had studied abroad in Italy, despite barely earning above minimum wage.
There's no beating around the bush; you can't fix stupid. I have very little sympathy for people who effectively squandered what little they had instead of at least making an attempt at good decision making. To fight and lose is one thing. To say you were doomed from the start and that fighting would be a waste of your time is another.
[+] [-] spaceseaman|8 years ago|reply
WHO IS THAT SMART? WHO IS THAT AWARE? I just got lucky cause I liked computers, was nerdy, and did decently on exams. I assume most other programmers are the same. I didn't know anything about SV (grew up in rural Kentucky) - I didn't know what the industry was like. I just believed Google when it said I would get a job. Don't act like we all thought very hard and carefully, meticulously planned out whether the thing we enjoyed would be profitable. Most people were 17.
If you were 17 or 18 when you decided to go to college, it probably wasn't a very well-thought out decision. The fact that you look at such students with such ire and derision for wanting a better life and working for that is so heartbreaking and pathetic. There are much more productive places to direct your malice than the students themselves.
You don't have to feel bad for people who made worse decisions than you. Congratulations, people make bad decisions. It's more productive to ask ourselves, "Why?" and "How can we prevent this" and "What can these people do now" rather than just getting all "old man yells at cloud" about "suburban-liberals". Lemme tell you real quick. I know people from every end of the damn political spectrum in this situation, so whatever political image you're projecting onto these students is just nonsense. It isn't a "liberal snowflake" or "feminist" problem or whatever else whacked out narrative you have in your head. The only conclusion you've come to is that teenagers are make bad decisions.
A lot of students of this generation felt that their only way to success was through college. It isn't because they're dumb. It isn't because they're "lazy". It's because they made the wrong decision. Let's all try and be a little more productive and ask "Now what?".
[+] [-] troupe|8 years ago|reply
And that was 6 years at a community college without getting a degree.
[+] [-] eli_gottlieb|8 years ago|reply
So you're saying it's time to drop the illusions and admit that most people will never be professionals with six-figure salaries, thus dramatically increasing class consciousness and ushering in the workers' revolution?
I don't think that's going to be politically popular.
[+] [-] rwallace|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ng12|8 years ago|reply
Wow, that's more expensive than the car I bought (and felt guilty about) as a newly employed software developer. I wonder if we should be offering financial counseling in addition to financial aid.
[+] [-] twblalock|8 years ago|reply
I'm not surprised about the new Elantra. People who grow up poor are not socialized to make good financial decisions. (People who grow up rich often make bad decisions too, but they don't suffer as much from them.)
Unfortunately, we have a system where poor college students are able to dig themselves into massive debt. Huge student loans are given to people who have no chance of repaying them, and it's possible for someone in dire financial straits to finance a new car. It's a miracle we haven't had a mass default bring down the entire student loan system yet.
[+] [-] wnevets|8 years ago|reply
Americans are being groomed to think in monthly payments rather than the total cost which leads to silly decisions like buying a brand new car instead of a getting a used car.
[+] [-] arcanus|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] troupe|8 years ago|reply
Liz spent 6 years enrolled at a community college without getting a degree and then transferred to a school to work on bachelors where she thinks she'll need to spend another 2.5 years. It doesn't really give the details of what happened during those 6 years, but if she was able to stay enrolled for 12 semesters without getting an associate degree there seem to be problems that go much deeper than a lack of resources to go to school.
If the advisors were seriously giving her advice that would prevent her from getting a 2-year degree in 6 years (even allowing for her trying to figure out what she wanted to study) the school should be liable.
[+] [-] bphogan|8 years ago|reply
> Like many students, she took classes she didn’t need, partly due to poor advising and partly because she was feeling her way toward a major.
I taught at a community college. A lot of people there are really just feeling around for what to do with their lives. A lot of them also didn't do so well in high school and needed to skip ACT/SAT requirements to get in to a 4 year school to do what they really needed. This translates into lots of general ed classes/GPA boosters.
When a student doesn't know what they want to do, it's hard to give them good advice. And if they didn't take school seriously in high school, it's harder for them to start doing it more seriously now.
Combine that with not knowing where you're sleeping that night, or trying to concentrate on an empty stomach, and yea, it'll take you a while to dig out.
I learned a lot of empathy teaching at a community college. Now, sure, we could talk about "personal responsibility", but there are a lot of things at play here. Lots of responsibility to share.
[+] [-] twblalock|8 years ago|reply
It was also very frustrating to transfer out. The transfer office made multiple mistakes that would have prevented my transfer if I had not noticed them myself. This was at a California community college with one of the highest transfer rates in the state.
Unfortunately, people who grow up poor are not socialized to be persistent and successful in navigating the kind of bureaucratic systems one encounters in college admissions, transfers, and student loans. So, I'm not surprised Liz was stuck in community college for a long time, although 6 years is excessive.
[+] [-] hal9000xp|8 years ago|reply
I ended up studying practically everything on my own (except reading/writing/elementary math which my grandpa taught me). I learned myself how to write programs when I was 10/11 years old. My parents were not programmers, so I had no help.
I lived in Uzbekistan, Russia, Sweden, the Netherlands. I'm working as a software engineer since 2009 (I started my career working at internet-club in 2002/2003).
I can confidently tell that most of "experts" (in whatever field) who have so called "higher education" diploma don't understand a damn thing.
Cost of education = cost of books, nothing more!
If you have luxury to have internet access (no sarcasm, I didn't had internet access till 2002/2003), then add cost of your personal computing device (again no sarcasm, I had only 8-bit ZX Spectrum till 2000!) and internet access subscription.
Peter Thiel has a similar view on "higher education" system:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvBlOFU3ry8
[+] [-] daxorid|8 years ago|reply
While this is generally true of the charlatan fields like psychology and sociology that can't even replicate their own results, I'd hazard to guess that Moore's Law is entirely reliant on Ph.D.-level work in materials science, etc.
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] neo4sure|8 years ago|reply