As a kid who actually used to boot from linux, delete the "internet security product" from program files, and then happily access the internet, I think it's a great idea, to train your kids to always find solutions.
When I was in school I found that the content blocking only monitored the actual page you were visiting, so if you wanted to go to albinoblacksheep.com or whatever, you just wrote an HTML page with an iframe inside and it would work fine.
For kids like that we suggest segmenting them into their own router. They can still install a VPN, unless you use our Android app (which is a VPN itself, and you can't have two active in Android at once)
Thinking on the kid's side. I personally don't want to be a kid who is forced to learn something which I have no interest in. Especially to get access to the internet on my free time to do/learn something that interests me.
Reinforced learning will give results, but better results can be obtained if the `desire` to learn is developed from within.
I honestly think the desire to learn something is not something that exists inside us, but rather develops based on how we are appreciated the first few times we try to learn something.
Can't fathom how kids can be interested or not in things they have no experience with.
Teachers and technologies that make learning fun and appealing are definitely best. This tool is intended more to provide limits against going too far in the opposite direction.
If you have any recommendations on how to purposefully develop a desire for learning in others (especially children), I would appreciate it if you would be willing to take the time to share them!
On a tangential note: I am still waiting for a philanthropic billionaire to create (sponsor) the ultimate learning digital world for kids of all ages (in 200+ languages please) aka Ready Player One.
There are already some high-quality learning apps (reading and counting) for kids but the best ones are paid and they usually cover only a narrow segment in a narrow subject.
I wonder if the "authorities of Effective Altruism" would agree with me that this is a good way to spend charity money.
I hands down agree with you. However, authorities of Effective Altruism on other hand are focused more on what is perceived by the world as efficient damage control on a large scale.
The ultimate learning digital world for kids might not be possible considering the diversity in our world. Also, I doubt authorities look at the current learning environment as damaging.
I don't think it's a good idea, "well used" (and setting what is or what is not a good use on the application of this might be kind of hard) can be an incentive for the childs, but, an overuse of this/using it as an obligation might cause the counter effect of associating learning with obligation and with that, the contempt towards learning, or having it as something negative that hinders what child want to get.
".org" domain suggests (to me, at least) that this is a free service, however, it won't stay free.
There is no information about how it works, let alone some technical aspects - interesting, especially considering the name. About link doesn't work as well.
I hope nobody will try to use this as a substitute for supervision with regards to children accessing the internet. Not that many parents seem to think supervision is necessary for children accessing the internet, which never fails to floor me.
For what it's worth we block many bad domains and soon will be forcing YouTube into restricted mode (by always resolving to restricted.youtube.com CNAME records)
I have to admit I thought this app design through before and think it's a great idea. I have wished to see an app like this and have tried other nanny style apps but found that they eventually break and can be bypassed.
My question to the developers is are you using undocumented APIs for core functionality and what is being done to ensure that future android updates don't kill core functions that make the system work.
To the best of my knowledge, the bulk of the restrictions are implemented by pointing devices to a custom DNS server (a VPN can accomplish much the same but I don't know if this product implements that). The majority of the app is the user interface for the reporting/status capabilities. You can read a bit more about the implementation on the HN discussion where I discovered this tool: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14913547
> utefan001: After 30 min, DNS no longer works for entertainment sites. [...] It takes her 5 to 7 mins to earn points. My server detects points and re enables DNS replies for YouTube
The somewhat similar Circle product is sold as a device that resides on the local network and accomplishes its configuration using ARP poisoning.
Hi Timothy,
We have designed DnsLearning so that all you need to do is point the child's device to use one of our DNS servers and then link an education site. As long as a device supports changing DNS, the device will always work. The play/app stores are not our main focus.
To avoid bypassing we have a iOS app on the way their APIs allow for parental controls.
For Android you have to use a device that has support for restricted profiles.
We don't do anything undocumented to prevent bypassing and we have actually taken some bypass protection features out while we fine tune our UI and onboarding experience.
I wish there were some experimental evidence that this approach is effective. Would some parental attention and tutoring have the same effect as the "educational sites"?
Fact is just like their parents, kids are tremendously connected these days, so there's a massive networking effect in the cohort. There's much less outdoor/social activities among kids than there were couple decades ago, simply because there's noone playing outside. Yes we can argue that no screen can replace human interaction fully but it does replace quite a bit of it.
We often hear this parents not doing their jobs sentiment over and over, either from people who have no kids or had them prior to smartphone era. Do you often find yourself spending a whole evening with a laptop or tablet? Checking facebook on your phone compulsively? Well same thing with kids. Sure I could just seize my son's devices, but then what? Push him out to the empty street? Try to be his playmate until he's 18? Because it's not just your kid, the whole social interaction fabric went the way of Great Barrier Reef.
Sure no technology can substitute parenting; most parents we know do the expected job of taking the kids for activities, courses, helping with homework etc. But you can't (and shouldn't) hover over your kids all the time. If this project can convert any of the social media/gaming time to at least something useful, it is priceless.
Regarding parental attention, the reality is that most parents are extremely busy. Single parents, long commutes, multiple jobs, etc. DnsLearning was primarily created to help parents that cannot afford private schools, tutoring, or moving out of a low income neighborhood. All of these great education sites are competing with very powerful algorithms that are designed to keep users watching video after video. If youtube starts encouraging users to do a few Khan Academy problems before watching the next video, I will consider DnsLearning a total success.
Hi Drallison, I am the co-creator. This is my biased description...
My 14 year old son said that he was surprised to learn how fast 30 mins goes by when using DnsLearning. Encouraging children to come up for air every 30 mins is a good thing. My 9 year old daughter went to Khan Academy 7 times one day during the summer. This means she was watching a lot of youtube videos. I told her I was impressed how many times she went to Khan Academy. She responded. "Yea, well I got tired of doing Khan Academy so I decided to clean my room instead." So, for those 2 cases, for my 2 children, it has been effective :)
I don't see a privacy policy or other page which makes it clear what information you collect and how that information is stored.
How is session management handled from the point of view of administering the service, how does the service track users and for how long is that information stored?
I think there needs to be more information present on the site - the about/home page doesn't show anything other than the most cursory information, and I think you'd want a lot more than that to convince most people to try it.
I may give it a whirl this weekend with my kids, but I'll see how it goes. The issue with most of these strategies is that kids are generally good penetration testers in their own (limited) way; if one means of accessing the internet is blocked, they'll use another one; given that they have access to different devices and no universal management system, I think they will just flip to another device.
Don't get me wrong, I think things like this are a useful tool in the arsenal of a parent who cares about their child's upbringing. I always find it slightly depressing when I see comments such as "this isn't a replacement for being a real parent", etc., which always seem to come with the subtext of [like i am] to them. I don't think anyone who would care about this sort of thing would think it was a replacement. I'm a step-parent to 4 kids (18,16,13,11) and it is a difficult task to get them onside in terms of what I see as responsible internet usage (which increasingly comes down to not only time, but the kind of sites and apps they are using), and most importantly what's easiest referred to as 'screen time' - games, etc. As mentioned above, if you do manage to lock something down in terms of time, then they'll use something else. And I really care about this, but it's a difficult thing to police in terms of actual effort, attention and also expectations. I don't think it's healthy for them to spend all their time on any kind of device, so we go out for walks and do activities when we can, and Sunday afternoon until Monday breakfast is no devices for ANYONE at all (Us included, which has been a real success after the initial resentment and whining), but often real life or work gets in the way, and having a way of enforcing limits of usage or actively promoting worthwhile usage to gain credits for trivial use would be a good thing to do, IMO.
But I'm yet to see anything which comes close to doing it; I did have a router running Gargoyle a few years ago, with each device in an appropriate group, and times enforced, but it couldn't handle that many reservations and crashed enough to make it more trouble than it's worth. That's compounded by the older kids having their own phones with some (limited) data plan, which can of course get round any restrictions. Promoting a 'stop using your device an hour before you go to bed' can be wearing, no matter how good your intentions, and how pleasant the kids may be.
In short, unless there's a universal standard for this, and everyone signs up to it (across all manufacturers and devices), I think it will have limited success, alas.
When enabling the study sites it's not immediately clear the credentials should be for an account you create on that site. Safari just happily autofills them with login pair to dnslearning itself. Perhaps "create account here" link to signup pages (where possible) would be helpful.
[+] [-] aneutron|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FussyZeus|8 years ago|reply
Memories...
[+] [-] TausAmmer|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] krisives|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] KGIII|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] l1feh4ck|8 years ago|reply
Reinforced learning will give results, but better results can be obtained if the `desire` to learn is developed from within.
[+] [-] r_singh|8 years ago|reply
Can't fathom how kids can be interested or not in things they have no experience with.
[+] [-] j_s|8 years ago|reply
If you have any recommendations on how to purposefully develop a desire for learning in others (especially children), I would appreciate it if you would be willing to take the time to share them!
[+] [-] dandare|8 years ago|reply
There are already some high-quality learning apps (reading and counting) for kids but the best ones are paid and they usually cover only a narrow segment in a narrow subject.
I wonder if the "authorities of Effective Altruism" would agree with me that this is a good way to spend charity money.
[+] [-] r_singh|8 years ago|reply
The ultimate learning digital world for kids might not be possible considering the diversity in our world. Also, I doubt authorities look at the current learning environment as damaging.
[+] [-] j_s|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j-pb|8 years ago|reply
English would be nice, but I would also accept lojban or hawaiian.
[+] [-] mas886|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] positivecomment|8 years ago|reply
There is no information about how it works, let alone some technical aspects - interesting, especially considering the name. About link doesn't work as well.
[+] [-] krisives|8 years ago|reply
I will fix the About link.
We are a small team and marketing isn't our forte so any feedback or suggestions are appreciated.
[+] [-] j_s|8 years ago|reply
Thanks also for the tip on the About link!
[+] [-] pricechild|8 years ago|reply
Oh wow, literally.
[+] [-] scalablenotions|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] krisives|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Timothycquinn|8 years ago|reply
My question to the developers is are you using undocumented APIs for core functionality and what is being done to ensure that future android updates don't kill core functions that make the system work.
[+] [-] j_s|8 years ago|reply
> utefan001: After 30 min, DNS no longer works for entertainment sites. [...] It takes her 5 to 7 mins to earn points. My server detects points and re enables DNS replies for YouTube
The somewhat similar Circle product is sold as a device that resides on the local network and accomplishes its configuration using ARP poisoning.
[+] [-] utefan001|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] krisives|8 years ago|reply
For Android you have to use a device that has support for restricted profiles.
We don't do anything undocumented to prevent bypassing and we have actually taken some bypass protection features out while we fine tune our UI and onboarding experience.
[+] [-] drallison|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] varjag|8 years ago|reply
Fact is just like their parents, kids are tremendously connected these days, so there's a massive networking effect in the cohort. There's much less outdoor/social activities among kids than there were couple decades ago, simply because there's noone playing outside. Yes we can argue that no screen can replace human interaction fully but it does replace quite a bit of it.
We often hear this parents not doing their jobs sentiment over and over, either from people who have no kids or had them prior to smartphone era. Do you often find yourself spending a whole evening with a laptop or tablet? Checking facebook on your phone compulsively? Well same thing with kids. Sure I could just seize my son's devices, but then what? Push him out to the empty street? Try to be his playmate until he's 18? Because it's not just your kid, the whole social interaction fabric went the way of Great Barrier Reef.
Sure no technology can substitute parenting; most parents we know do the expected job of taking the kids for activities, courses, helping with homework etc. But you can't (and shouldn't) hover over your kids all the time. If this project can convert any of the social media/gaming time to at least something useful, it is priceless.
[+] [-] utefan001|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] utefan001|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j_s|8 years ago|reply
Also (meme-ing a bit here): why not both? :)
In reality, it's always a mistake to let the nonexistent perfect be the enemy of the good (or to be most pessimistic: the not-as-bad).
I personally am desperate for an app-ified version of this well-researched "direct instruction" book/process: https://www.amazon.com/Teach-Your-Child-Read-Lessons/dp/0671...
[+] [-] krisives|8 years ago|reply
Thank you all!
[+] [-] throwawayReply|8 years ago|reply
I don't see a privacy policy or other page which makes it clear what information you collect and how that information is stored.
How is session management handled from the point of view of administering the service, how does the service track users and for how long is that information stored?
[+] [-] djaychela|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] djaychela|8 years ago|reply
I may give it a whirl this weekend with my kids, but I'll see how it goes. The issue with most of these strategies is that kids are generally good penetration testers in their own (limited) way; if one means of accessing the internet is blocked, they'll use another one; given that they have access to different devices and no universal management system, I think they will just flip to another device.
Don't get me wrong, I think things like this are a useful tool in the arsenal of a parent who cares about their child's upbringing. I always find it slightly depressing when I see comments such as "this isn't a replacement for being a real parent", etc., which always seem to come with the subtext of [like i am] to them. I don't think anyone who would care about this sort of thing would think it was a replacement. I'm a step-parent to 4 kids (18,16,13,11) and it is a difficult task to get them onside in terms of what I see as responsible internet usage (which increasingly comes down to not only time, but the kind of sites and apps they are using), and most importantly what's easiest referred to as 'screen time' - games, etc. As mentioned above, if you do manage to lock something down in terms of time, then they'll use something else. And I really care about this, but it's a difficult thing to police in terms of actual effort, attention and also expectations. I don't think it's healthy for them to spend all their time on any kind of device, so we go out for walks and do activities when we can, and Sunday afternoon until Monday breakfast is no devices for ANYONE at all (Us included, which has been a real success after the initial resentment and whining), but often real life or work gets in the way, and having a way of enforcing limits of usage or actively promoting worthwhile usage to gain credits for trivial use would be a good thing to do, IMO.
But I'm yet to see anything which comes close to doing it; I did have a router running Gargoyle a few years ago, with each device in an appropriate group, and times enforced, but it couldn't handle that many reservations and crashed enough to make it more trouble than it's worth. That's compounded by the older kids having their own phones with some (limited) data plan, which can of course get round any restrictions. Promoting a 'stop using your device an hour before you go to bed' can be wearing, no matter how good your intentions, and how pleasant the kids may be.
In short, unless there's a universal standard for this, and everyone signs up to it (across all manufacturers and devices), I think it will have limited success, alas.
[+] [-] j_s|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ekblom|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] varjag|8 years ago|reply