I'm getting pretty tired of Rick and Morty fans blowing the greatness of the show way out of proportion. I love the show, but not because it's "smart" or "nihilistic' or because it references science. It's a zany cartoon with witty dialog, and it's hilarious, but to claim it's more profound than that has so far proven to be little more than reading too far into it. Referencing pop culture isn't "smart" in and of itself, and it doesn't require extraordinary intelligence to recognize.
By the way, Rick is not a nihilist. He might be very careless and ambivalent, but that doesn't translate to any form of nihilism I'm aware of; in the case of the show, he's definitely not en existential nihilist, and it's arguable that he's not even a moral nihilist. The rest of the characters on the show are not nihilists; myopic would be a more accurate description. You want a really nihilistic show? Watch Seinfeld.
To further your point, if Rick was an "ist" he would be an absurdist. And historically speaking absurdists like Camus have been against the concept of nihilism because usually nihilists still try to find some internal meaning in life (something that absurdists rail against). To quote Camus (The Myth of Sisyphus):
> [Nihilists] deify what crushes them and find reason to hope in what impoverishes them.
I think Rick and Morty resonates with people who are struggling with the disillusionments of adolescence: that you aren't as unique or special as you thought, that your parents have problems and concerns that have nothing to do with you, that you're just a lump of matter, and that how people value and treat you is influenced by your practical value to them.
It resonates even more with people who would prefer those issues be brought front and center, people who dream of achieving social acceptance but can't swallow the apparent disregard for larger issues that casual society demands. That the powerful and confident Rick openly addresses their fears is validating; that he manages to be blasé about them is reassuring. They are tired of feeling weak next to their peers who seem strong (or, preferably, stupid) enough to work at forging confident and polished versions of themselves that aren't marred by of the horribleness of the world. Rick provides an alternative model of strength that includes adolescent disillusionments front and center instead of sweeping them under the rug; Morty to Rick presents an alternative route to competent adulthood.
And of course it seems "nihilistic" to them even though it is nothing of the sort. Nihilism is a natural fascination for socially isolated adolescents, because they feel all of their illusions being stripped away and wonder what will be left when the illusions are gone. (Adolescents who feel socially connected don't feel a gaping nothing waiting to swallow them up when when their childhood illusions are gone. That's why some kids are able to gloss over it as an occasional terror, while it feels like an essential aspect of reality to others.) "Rick and Morty" is leading them along, season by season, to the discovery that there is something left, and, like math, you don't understand it so much as get used to it. The more weird and amazing things you learn, the more you learn that you are going to have an ordinary life even if you also have an extraordinary one, and to go one step further into painful territory, even if you don't.
> You want a really nihilistic show? Watch Seinfeld.
Eh? Do you mean nihilist in the (meta) sense that the show "is about nothing" and has no inherent meaning? Because none of the characters on Seinfeld strike me as nihilist either.
That's not to say I disagree with your point about Rick and Morty having nihilist characters; I don't think Rick is a nihilist, but I also don't think nihilism translates well to film and television. It's difficult to maintain compelling character development that can bring in a large viewership if a character is truly nihilist, in my opinion.
For my purposes I don't believe it's enough to have a character profess adherence to existential nihilism - I don't agree a character is nihilist unless they also act like it, and that is fundamentally difficult to do convincingly. I very often see writers use stoicism, ruthless utilitarianism, (dysfunctional) cynicism and even atheism as proxies to demonstrate a character is nihilistic, but none of those really hits it on the mark. I consider it like free will: you can make extremely compelling arguments that free will (in the sense of the capacity for non-deterministic decision making) simply doesn't exist (or is at best implausible), but there's not really a convincing framework for altering your behavior even if you claim to believe that. This is unlike atheism or agnosticism, which do have clear behavioral proxies when you abstract them away from considerations of intrinsic meaning - simply don't participate in religious communities, gatherings or activities for its own sake.
I've never heard (non-sarcastic copy-pasta) people go on about how smart the show is or the audience has to be to "get it" or anything, but I have heard this echoing reaction to those people anywhere and everywhere the show comes up recently.
Game of Thrones is way more nihilist than Rick and Morty or Seinfeld. At least when it comes to morality, ethics, and humanity in general.
Rick and Seinfeld do some scummy things out of pure self interest (or disinterest), but Game of Thrones is 100% about taking the training wheels off and letting characters rape and murder each other. Rick doesn't take slaves. Jerry doesn't have his rivals killed.
What's more, fans of Game of Thrones often root against the non-nihilist characters for not being "smarter". "Dumb" characters are often guilty of loyalty or romance or honor.
I say this as someone who enjoys the show. But I enjoy it as a thought experiment of a different society with different rules and culture.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humor is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Rick's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his personal philosophy draws heavily fromNarodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realize that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Rick and Morty truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Rick's existencial catchphrase "Wubba Lubba Dub Dub," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon's genius unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools... how I pity them. And yes by the way, I DO have a Rick and Morty tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.
Rick And Morty has a great number of good "science" jokes, but really its more about general Sci-Fi tropes. (Time Travel, Multiverses, Clones, Aliens, and Androids aren't really "science" as much as they are about "Science fiction")
But the hardest thing for me was to get used to the straight up nihilism of Rick. True, there have been plenty of Nihilistic "protagonists" in other shows: Peter Griffin in Family Guy, Eric Cartman from South Park, Homer Simpson (depending on the season of course).
But Rick is different: while the other characters are arguably Nihilistic due to ignorance, Rick purposefully and specifically pursues the "I don't care" attitude and gets away with it due to his intelligence (while other characters in other shows seem to get away with it due to literally dumb luck).
That difference continuously pisses me off in Rick and Morty, and as such its difficult for me to enjoy a lot of the episodes.
Nothing against the fanbase or anything: I recognize that Rick and Morty is a huge following, and the enormous lines at McDonalds for the special Rick and Morty Sauce just a few days ago demonstrates that Rick and Morty are the new "mainstream" cartoon. But its apathetic and malicious main character really grates on me, and I personally an unable to enjoy it as much as everyone else seems to.
I saw one episode and had the same reaction. I thought Rick was going to be like the professor from back to the future. Instead he's the bright but shallow kid making all the annoying smart alec comments, with a facile outlook on life he gets away with due to not having to live in the real world.
I think the nihilism fits very well because if you could travel to an infinite possibility of dimensions you would see the world as a very different place.
All the things people argue and worry about mean nothing.
Yep. They also don't know what to do with him now that his character is, by their own admission, "some kind of fucked up God."
This season was originally going to have four more episodes that would address this but Harmon and Roiland didn't know how to resolve it properly. They admitted that the final episode was originally an arbitrary one which they "finale-ized" to wrap up the season.
Science was one of the few classes that I really responded to in grade school. You’re learning all the cool, big stuff, about evolution, and we were seeing those Pillars of Creation, that amazing Hubble image.
It was so fascinating, hearing these big, broad ideas. It would be like, “Now we’re going to talk about DNA and Lamarckian genetics.” But when you had to be smarter for it, like, “Now we’re going to use pipettes and study pH balances,” I was like, “Eh, science is getting a little too sciencey for me.”
I think this nicely captures the appeal of fun sci-fi adventure series like "Rick and Morty" and "Doctor Who." Learning mind-blowing new things becomes harder and rarer as you get older, and sci-fi keeps the experience fresh for us.
(Also, I was surprised to see them mention a dozen or so sci-fi shows and authors without a single nod to Doctor Who, which seems like the most direct inspiration for Rick and Morty. The inscrutable but often joyous magician traveling space and time with a magical device, constantly getting into mortal peril yet overcoming armies when he needs to, changing the fate of civilizations, encountering reminders of his colorful past, traveling humbly yet openly reveling in his power when he's forced to wield it, his callous facade complicated by his compulsive and somewhat careless habit of bringing an ordinary person along. And of course the theme song is an obvious homage.)
Morty seems to represent our inner scared timid self while Rick seems to represent our inner projected/desired self. Nerdy introverts can relate to this duality I think. The science and pop references are just frosting on top of the themes we can relate to, like a broken family struggling to hold itself together, struggling to understand your kids, struggling to connect with your parents, and so on.
Similar to Futurama, the science reference where great, but when I think of the show I remember the dog sitting in front of the pizza shop waiting for fry before the science gags.
True and succinct, although "destroyed" is excessive -- its still just as possible to enjoy undertale on its own.
R&m though really is a victim of its fanbase. I tried watching the fan favorite s3e01 with my dad, who has seen all of seasons 1 and 2, and he really couldnt follow the plot. It made me realize that I probably only liked it because I watched each episode of seasons 1 and 2 at least twice (the dvd commentary is great). I'm just going to skip watching the council of ricks episode from season 3 with him, it's really self indulgent.
Honestly I'd rather have the ridiculous fans than pretentious people here arguing and nit picking stupid shit to sound more intelligent. It's a show, watch it, enjoy it, stop trying to hold everything against some fictional ideal model. "Ooh but it's not really THAT existential and nihilistic" who the fuck cares you hipster; what elements it has in those areas goes well beyond most other available shows. Much like creating a government to hide from the government, it's pretty damn hypocritical for you all* to sit here and complain about other peoples opinions gumming up the show by complaining about the show with your own overblown armchair drivel. Watch it or don't but shut the fuck up and move on with your day.
I feel like you're missing the point that people are making. I personally agree with you when you say "It's a show, watch it, enjoy it, stop trying to hold everything against some fictional ideal model." I don't even have a problem with people seeing something in a form of art that I don't. If someone sees a lot of nihilism or even meaning in Rick and Morty, there's nothing wrong with that.
My gripe with Rick and Morty fans, as a group, is that they seem to make a lot of claims that come off as arrogance against people who "just can't understand" the show as they see it. I know a lot of Rick and Morty fans in real life, and I do like the show myself, but I've even met people offline that seem to believe that being a fan of the show means you're of some apex intelligence. I nitpick these claims because they're often made through an objective standpoint, not a subjective one. I have no problem with subjective views, but once I'm told "Oh this thing is so nihilistic, so intelligent, so smart... you just don't get it", of course I'm going to refute those points when I find little basis for them.
I normally don't let public opinion dictate what I should like, but a lot of fan behavior I've experienced is so toxic that I'm now having difficulty having anything to do with it. I mean, waiting in line at McDonalds and even jumping the counter for some freaking sauce packets mentioned one time in the show? That's so over-the-top pathetic, I feel kinda gross even thinking about it. I shutter to think that they, many of whom are grown adults, are going to become parents.
> what elements it has in those areas goes well beyond most other available shows
I think the true selling point of R & M is that the plot defies expectations, not by simply going to the contrary but by turning left of the hero road, following a insane idea and sticking to it until the trophe falls apart and something i call messy realism appears.
What would happen if you hang around the borg? Oh, turns out the hivemind is people too.
And so on, and so forth.
Rick and Morty is "just" great Tv showing how much on rails all the other plots in all the other shows usually are. My problem is, that i think the show has no overall arc - and that they desperatly will try to glue one together.
No overall arc is the ultimate test of creativity. That's why Seinfeld (or arguably The Office) are so impressive to me. It seems like R&M is headed in a similar direction, since they take a lot of pleasure in pretending like they're building an arc and then resolving it in the most anti-climactic way ("Anyway, that's how I escaped from space prison!").
[+] [-] ravenstine|8 years ago|reply
By the way, Rick is not a nihilist. He might be very careless and ambivalent, but that doesn't translate to any form of nihilism I'm aware of; in the case of the show, he's definitely not en existential nihilist, and it's arguable that he's not even a moral nihilist. The rest of the characters on the show are not nihilists; myopic would be a more accurate description. You want a really nihilistic show? Watch Seinfeld.
[+] [-] cyphar|8 years ago|reply
> [Nihilists] deify what crushes them and find reason to hope in what impoverishes them.
[+] [-] dkarl|8 years ago|reply
It resonates even more with people who would prefer those issues be brought front and center, people who dream of achieving social acceptance but can't swallow the apparent disregard for larger issues that casual society demands. That the powerful and confident Rick openly addresses their fears is validating; that he manages to be blasé about them is reassuring. They are tired of feeling weak next to their peers who seem strong (or, preferably, stupid) enough to work at forging confident and polished versions of themselves that aren't marred by of the horribleness of the world. Rick provides an alternative model of strength that includes adolescent disillusionments front and center instead of sweeping them under the rug; Morty to Rick presents an alternative route to competent adulthood.
And of course it seems "nihilistic" to them even though it is nothing of the sort. Nihilism is a natural fascination for socially isolated adolescents, because they feel all of their illusions being stripped away and wonder what will be left when the illusions are gone. (Adolescents who feel socially connected don't feel a gaping nothing waiting to swallow them up when when their childhood illusions are gone. That's why some kids are able to gloss over it as an occasional terror, while it feels like an essential aspect of reality to others.) "Rick and Morty" is leading them along, season by season, to the discovery that there is something left, and, like math, you don't understand it so much as get used to it. The more weird and amazing things you learn, the more you learn that you are going to have an ordinary life even if you also have an extraordinary one, and to go one step further into painful territory, even if you don't.
[+] [-] dsacco|8 years ago|reply
Eh? Do you mean nihilist in the (meta) sense that the show "is about nothing" and has no inherent meaning? Because none of the characters on Seinfeld strike me as nihilist either.
That's not to say I disagree with your point about Rick and Morty having nihilist characters; I don't think Rick is a nihilist, but I also don't think nihilism translates well to film and television. It's difficult to maintain compelling character development that can bring in a large viewership if a character is truly nihilist, in my opinion.
For my purposes I don't believe it's enough to have a character profess adherence to existential nihilism - I don't agree a character is nihilist unless they also act like it, and that is fundamentally difficult to do convincingly. I very often see writers use stoicism, ruthless utilitarianism, (dysfunctional) cynicism and even atheism as proxies to demonstrate a character is nihilistic, but none of those really hits it on the mark. I consider it like free will: you can make extremely compelling arguments that free will (in the sense of the capacity for non-deterministic decision making) simply doesn't exist (or is at best implausible), but there's not really a convincing framework for altering your behavior even if you claim to believe that. This is unlike atheism or agnosticism, which do have clear behavioral proxies when you abstract them away from considerations of intrinsic meaning - simply don't participate in religious communities, gatherings or activities for its own sake.
[+] [-] lotyrin|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] foota|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] humanrebar|8 years ago|reply
Game of Thrones is way more nihilist than Rick and Morty or Seinfeld. At least when it comes to morality, ethics, and humanity in general.
Rick and Seinfeld do some scummy things out of pure self interest (or disinterest), but Game of Thrones is 100% about taking the training wheels off and letting characters rape and murder each other. Rick doesn't take slaves. Jerry doesn't have his rivals killed.
What's more, fans of Game of Thrones often root against the non-nihilist characters for not being "smarter". "Dumb" characters are often guilty of loyalty or romance or honor.
I say this as someone who enjoys the show. But I enjoy it as a thought experiment of a different society with different rules and culture.
[+] [-] qwerty_asdf|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wehere1|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] briholt|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ythn|8 years ago|reply
At least, it used to have witty dialogue. Now 95% of the conversation is:
Rick: "*Shut-uurp the f### up Morty you piece of s###"
Morty: "Y-y-y-y-y-you know Rick, not everybody likes the way things are going around here, Rick!"
[+] [-] ionised|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dragontamer|8 years ago|reply
But the hardest thing for me was to get used to the straight up nihilism of Rick. True, there have been plenty of Nihilistic "protagonists" in other shows: Peter Griffin in Family Guy, Eric Cartman from South Park, Homer Simpson (depending on the season of course).
But Rick is different: while the other characters are arguably Nihilistic due to ignorance, Rick purposefully and specifically pursues the "I don't care" attitude and gets away with it due to his intelligence (while other characters in other shows seem to get away with it due to literally dumb luck).
That difference continuously pisses me off in Rick and Morty, and as such its difficult for me to enjoy a lot of the episodes.
Nothing against the fanbase or anything: I recognize that Rick and Morty is a huge following, and the enormous lines at McDonalds for the special Rick and Morty Sauce just a few days ago demonstrates that Rick and Morty are the new "mainstream" cartoon. But its apathetic and malicious main character really grates on me, and I personally an unable to enjoy it as much as everyone else seems to.
[+] [-] yters|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sschueller|8 years ago|reply
All the things people argue and worry about mean nothing.
[+] [-] gggdvnkhmbgjvbn|8 years ago|reply
This season was originally going to have four more episodes that would address this but Harmon and Roiland didn't know how to resolve it properly. They admitted that the final episode was originally an arbitrary one which they "finale-ized" to wrap up the season.
[+] [-] horusthecat|8 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] dkarl|8 years ago|reply
It was so fascinating, hearing these big, broad ideas. It would be like, “Now we’re going to talk about DNA and Lamarckian genetics.” But when you had to be smarter for it, like, “Now we’re going to use pipettes and study pH balances,” I was like, “Eh, science is getting a little too sciencey for me.”
I think this nicely captures the appeal of fun sci-fi adventure series like "Rick and Morty" and "Doctor Who." Learning mind-blowing new things becomes harder and rarer as you get older, and sci-fi keeps the experience fresh for us.
(Also, I was surprised to see them mention a dozen or so sci-fi shows and authors without a single nod to Doctor Who, which seems like the most direct inspiration for Rick and Morty. The inscrutable but often joyous magician traveling space and time with a magical device, constantly getting into mortal peril yet overcoming armies when he needs to, changing the fate of civilizations, encountering reminders of his colorful past, traveling humbly yet openly reveling in his power when he's forced to wield it, his callous facade complicated by his compulsive and somewhat careless habit of bringing an ordinary person along. And of course the theme song is an obvious homage.)
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] have_faith|8 years ago|reply
Similar to Futurama, the science reference where great, but when I think of the show I remember the dog sitting in front of the pizza shop waiting for fry before the science gags.
[+] [-] LyndsySimon|8 years ago|reply
See, that's interesting, because besides being voiced by the same actor, there is some evidence in the show that Morty is Rick.
[+] [-] adamnemecek|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] onion-soup|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bdz|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gggdvnkhmbgjvbn|8 years ago|reply
R&m though really is a victim of its fanbase. I tried watching the fan favorite s3e01 with my dad, who has seen all of seasons 1 and 2, and he really couldnt follow the plot. It made me realize that I probably only liked it because I watched each episode of seasons 1 and 2 at least twice (the dvd commentary is great). I'm just going to skip watching the council of ricks episode from season 3 with him, it's really self indulgent.
[+] [-] mwulfe|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] cyberpunk0|8 years ago|reply
* Of course not actually everyone
[+] [-] ravenstine|8 years ago|reply
My gripe with Rick and Morty fans, as a group, is that they seem to make a lot of claims that come off as arrogance against people who "just can't understand" the show as they see it. I know a lot of Rick and Morty fans in real life, and I do like the show myself, but I've even met people offline that seem to believe that being a fan of the show means you're of some apex intelligence. I nitpick these claims because they're often made through an objective standpoint, not a subjective one. I have no problem with subjective views, but once I'm told "Oh this thing is so nihilistic, so intelligent, so smart... you just don't get it", of course I'm going to refute those points when I find little basis for them.
I normally don't let public opinion dictate what I should like, but a lot of fan behavior I've experienced is so toxic that I'm now having difficulty having anything to do with it. I mean, waiting in line at McDonalds and even jumping the counter for some freaking sauce packets mentioned one time in the show? That's so over-the-top pathetic, I feel kinda gross even thinking about it. I shutter to think that they, many of whom are grown adults, are going to become parents.
> what elements it has in those areas goes well beyond most other available shows
What are some of those elements?
[+] [-] louithethrid|8 years ago|reply
Rick and Morty is "just" great Tv showing how much on rails all the other plots in all the other shows usually are. My problem is, that i think the show has no overall arc - and that they desperatly will try to glue one together.
[+] [-] davidivadavid|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] humanrebar|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sever5|8 years ago|reply
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