The sentiment on the street is to keep pushing forward and declare independence. The opposition to this rule is huge (there has been a new huge demostration today).
If this happens civil disobedience will grow.
There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.
According to a poll from a Catalan newspaper [0] released yesterday, 68% of Catalans prefer regional elections versus an unilateral independence declaration.
> There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns),
So it'll be a massacre?
I don't believe that everyone owning firearms is even remotely close to the answer, but nations get super fucking stupid and desperate when folks try to break away from them, even if the break away process is democratic and peaceful.
It's increasingly clear that the only two possible outcomes are either abandoning the idea altogether (possibly with an overall reduction in autonomy or proscription of the pro-independence parties); or violence.
You can see even in this thread that nobody in the rest of Spain is even going to consider the possibility of peaceful secession. It's going to end up like 70s Belfast if people go down this route.
I was in Barcelona 4 days ago. At least 25% of the people there is clearly not independentist.
So stop talking the "sentiment in the street" like there is only one "Poble" in Catalunia that wants independence. If there is a fight it is not going to be against Madrid, but Catalans over Catalans.
Assuming there's a group of people who more or less agree to be separate from some larger group, it's hard to think of legitimate reasons why they shouldn't be allowed to secede. Their forefathers having signed an agreement is hardly a convincing reason to hold them in a union they no longer like. Neither are issues of the current political situation ("it would destabilize the region...").
There's still hard questions, though. How do we split the national debt? What about various government assets? Who has a choice about what nation to join? And so on.
All hard questions, but none of them seems to undermine the idea that people should be allowed to decide to be separate.
"The people" includes a lot of people who don't want to separate. If 99% want it I would say OK, maybe. Where does one draw the line? Take a look at how the separation of India and Pakistan went if you want to get an idea of how it might go.
It looks like Spain are coming as the bad guys in the whole ordeal, trying to keep their "vassal" state at any cost. Seems like a throwback to feudal times. They could have made a reasonable deal. Referendum would be valid if there is over 50% participation and a super majority 2/3rds approve it (over 66% of YES, for independence).
Most likely the independence vote would have lost, people felt they expressed their rights and Spain would move on to deal with their economy and other matters. Squashing referendums with violence made them look bad and lose the moral ground on the international scale and just embolden the separatists (who wants to live under an oppressive regime anyways).
Also the EU is coming out as a loser in this case. They demonstrated that they basically don't give a fudge about their citizens (which Catalans are), and just want to preserve the political status quo.
I’ve been to Barcelona quite often. People are nice and friendly. One time though when I was out eating dinner with a Spanish friend from Madrid something strange happened: the waiter told her she could not order in Spanish, she needed to speak Catalan, which was totally weird since we ordered in Spanish right before she ordered. But our Spanish was of course quite bad with a foreign accent, he was ok with that. We thought that was quite rude and impolite and ended up dining somewhere else.
I definitely don’t know enough to judge the whole thing. However, from what I know, as a European, the secession movement bewilders me. It strangely feels very un-European. How can we unite the continent if we start separating countries? Can we not all just get along together and not care so much about the details of our passport? Which problem is independence solving?
Have you looked for their arguments, or are your questions rhetorical?
Saying this is about "the details of our passports" is a bit disrespectful. Being part of Spain is about much more than that - as I think both sides would agree. And I don't see why the separation of countries would prevent the union of the continent.
They won't intervene, as it is 'domestic issues'. They are more than happy to turn a blind eye as long as there's nothing physical, since a hypothetical independence would cause instability in the EU and might give the pro-Independence movement more legitimacy.
That’s not true. Catalan leaders were given a few days to make it clear whether they had declared the independence or not, because after their joke referendum, they were intentionally vague about what they were going to do. Puigdemont dodged the question again so this is it.
They said they want to negotiate with the central government. In my opinion this is simply racketeering, they want a better deal with taxes. This must not stand.
Nothing of this would have happened if secessionists wouldn't have had full access to the education and the media of that region since forever. They have been blasting propaganda por decades. Of course this was bound to happen. I work in the media and I know there's no way to get a grant for your small paper/radio station if you don't align with their values.
There's a widespread sentiment that Spain "is robbing them". But the truth is that this is just redistributing wealth; many regions of Spain give money and others take. That's how the economy works everywhere.
Spain is forcing its might on a peaceful majority on Catalonians through violence & other 'onesided-lawful' means. When a significant majority (apparently 90% who polled) wants to separate, calling it a joke, is not really apt.
If being blasted with propaganda for decades means the people's opinions are invalid, how can the Constitution be defended, when that vote was held after more than thirty years of propaganda by a totalitarian (by its own admission) government?
Cool. Let's not negotiate. Consequences? You have a region where 50% of the people are so discontent with the situation that they are willing to go independent. Unsustainable. So you basically give them no option: they can't hold a referendum for an independence, you don't want to find an agreement with them... What kind of government would do that?
As far as I can tell they want out for two reasons:
1. They want to preserve their own culture, which is apparently distinct from Spain's.
2. They've some issue with the Spanish government, seems to be around corruption and/or unfair treatment. Don't know enough about this to comment on it though.
How does seceding make sense here? It's not the only solution, it's one of many, and it's probably one of the worst - they're going to torpedo Spain's recovering economy, and have to build a new country of their own. Who's going to run the hospitals? Where's the money/electricity/food/water/fuel etc coming from?
National media is crying outloud people are 'adoctrinated' in Catalonia in favour of independence...how that saying? like seeing the mote in one's brother's eye without noticing the beam in one's own.
It's worse than that. It is as if Spain wants Catalonia to look justified in seceding in the eyes of the world. Pretty much everyone in the world would have regarded a secession referendum from Catalonia - regardless of how it was decided - as an unimportant joke until the Spanish government started beating people over it.
Look at the electoral results. PP, the current governing party in Spain, doesn't get good results in Catalonia.
Its main opponents, PSOE, does get decent results there, as does the alternative, PODEMOS.
So they have absolutely nothing to lose, politically speaking, losing us.
Not only that, but they have used, and still use, Catalonia as a ghost whom they fight, in order to gain votes in the rest of Spain.
And lastly, there are active cases against them by justice, all this is casting a smokescreen so people won't notice if they are declared guilty,or when they pardon their friends.
Given that "Catalunia leader" has dissolved the Parlament (Catalunia local congress) and declared independence(but saying that he suspended it), it is only logical what the Government has to do.
The central Government is not escalating anything, on the contrary, it has been extremely weak.
Imagine that some State in the US declares the president of the US has no decisions over his land, and that you follow your own local laws(made by you on the go) instead of the laws of your country. It will not take more than 5 minutes of that for the country to act.
The Parlament local laws said that you need two thirds of the Parlament in order to do anything serious. Those guys wanted to declare independence with half the seats plus one. Those seats represent less people that those that were not independentists.
In the case of Spain it has taken almost a month to do something, and most of the responsible people are out there free, earning a very good salary for trying to destroy the country.
In China when revolution won everything that Chinese elite did was bad, even if they did some things well, like having hygienic manners. As a result, living in China today is extremely disgusting.
In Spain the same happens with anything Franco dictatorship did. We always have to do the opposite of what Franco would have done.
So because Franco was nationalist and brave(he risked his life over 200 hundred times in battle) politicians believe that democracy needs to be against the nation and weakness the rule. They do not consider that you could be a democracy and take your country seriously.
So they made it legal for politicians that want to destroy the system be part of the System. They gave territories more autonomy, a local tv, local police, the education and health system.
Local police now is acting like a private independentists police(like the SA and SS were private armies of Hitler against Germany army and police). Local TV and radio uses their airtime to put loop videos of Spanish police "brutality" (nothing compared against last Germany action in the G20 summit or Britain with Brexit protests), where the local police has not followed orders by central Government.
The local health system(following also local orders) declared anyone having an anxiety crisis for watching local TV loops to be an officially "injured" by Spanish police. More than 200 "injured" by Spanish police had just watched TV.
Catalonia'president has not dissolved the parliament, neither has he disbanded it.
There will be a parlamentari meeting next week to debate what to do with the application of the 155 and how to respond. Has just said so in a televised speech.
Just with the inaccuracy you started marks all the rest you wrote as "things to doubt".
>>Imagine that some State in the US declares the president of the US has no decisions over his land, and that you follow your own local laws(made by you on the go) instead of the laws of your country. It will not take more than 5 minutes of that for the country to act.
We have a strong Federalist Society and I think it would take much longer than 5 mins to act.
While the US Federal Government has gain alot of power after the last 100 years it is still not the Top Dogs, Under the US Constitution the State governments can amend and/or abolish the Federal Government if they so choose.
The US Constitution is entirely about limiting the power and scope of the US Federal Government, a fact that seems to be lost both in international understanding of the US, and sadly domestically as well since we have more and more people thinking the Constitution is about "Giving people rights" or outlining what an individual can do, instead of its original and true purpose of defining what the government is allowed to do
Prime example of this is National Speed Limits, there is no way for the US Federal Government to demand a speed limit so when they wanted to establish said limit of 65, they had to do it by bribes and extortion they tied federal funding for roads to the passage of state laws establishing a 65 speed limit, states that did not pass such a law would lose billions in federal money
So no I do not believe the reaction would be as you think it would be here in the States
A more modern and pressing example is the ongoing conflict between several states and the US Federal Government over Marijuana where multiple states have now openly defied the federal laws on prohibition of this plant.
And on Immigration where they openly resist and obstruct enforcement of Federal Immigration Law.
No in the US the State government are regularly in opposition to the Federal Government
Yes, can we have Napoleon's unite Europe back? Or at least the Third Reich? Austria-Hungary was also a terrific idea as was the Ottoman Empire (why did the Greeks every want to rule themselves?)
Why not? Let them fork, iterate and improve. They have a strong identity and economy, so they must be doing something right. Maybe being tied to a monolith even hinders their progress? (Just ideas for thought.)
[+] [-] JaumeGreen|8 years ago|reply
If this happens civil disobedience will grow.
There won't be a civil war (we are peaceful people and have no guns), but we won't obey what comes from Madrid.
[+] [-] Findeton|8 years ago|reply
[0] http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171020/encuesta-cat...
[+] [-] craftyguy|8 years ago|reply
So it'll be a massacre?
I don't believe that everyone owning firearms is even remotely close to the answer, but nations get super fucking stupid and desperate when folks try to break away from them, even if the break away process is democratic and peaceful.
[+] [-] avar|8 years ago|reply
You're either entirely wrong, or Catalonia is an extreme statistical outlier when it comes to gun ownership in Spain.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c...
[+] [-] pjc50|8 years ago|reply
It's increasingly clear that the only two possible outcomes are either abandoning the idea altogether (possibly with an overall reduction in autonomy or proscription of the pro-independence parties); or violence.
You can see even in this thread that nobody in the rest of Spain is even going to consider the possibility of peaceful secession. It's going to end up like 70s Belfast if people go down this route.
[+] [-] peter-m80|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pipio21|8 years ago|reply
I was in Barcelona 4 days ago. At least 25% of the people there is clearly not independentist.
So stop talking the "sentiment in the street" like there is only one "Poble" in Catalunia that wants independence. If there is a fight it is not going to be against Madrid, but Catalans over Catalans.
[+] [-] kobeya|8 years ago|reply
Myanmar has gun controls too. That’s really working out for its populace /s
The ignorance and naïveté in this statement is astounding.
[+] [-] notspanishflu|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] bassman9000|8 years ago|reply
The Constitution, you mean?
Good luck when, in your newly forged Republic, some citizens don't want to obey the Rule of Law, because
we won't obey what comes from Barcelona
[+] [-] lordnacho|8 years ago|reply
There's still hard questions, though. How do we split the national debt? What about various government assets? Who has a choice about what nation to join? And so on.
All hard questions, but none of them seems to undermine the idea that people should be allowed to decide to be separate.
[+] [-] notspanishflu|8 years ago|reply
V.g. Barcelona can't propose a secession from Catalonia.
[+] [-] njarboe|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ardit33|8 years ago|reply
Most likely the independence vote would have lost, people felt they expressed their rights and Spain would move on to deal with their economy and other matters. Squashing referendums with violence made them look bad and lose the moral ground on the international scale and just embolden the separatists (who wants to live under an oppressive regime anyways).
Also the EU is coming out as a loser in this case. They demonstrated that they basically don't give a fudge about their citizens (which Catalans are), and just want to preserve the political status quo.
[+] [-] notspanishflu|8 years ago|reply
If secessionists lose an election, they'll keep asking for another, and another.
[+] [-] baxtr|8 years ago|reply
I definitely don’t know enough to judge the whole thing. However, from what I know, as a European, the secession movement bewilders me. It strangely feels very un-European. How can we unite the continent if we start separating countries? Can we not all just get along together and not care so much about the details of our passport? Which problem is independence solving?
[+] [-] icebraining|8 years ago|reply
Have you looked for their arguments, or are your questions rhetorical?
Saying this is about "the details of our passports" is a bit disrespectful. Being part of Spain is about much more than that - as I think both sides would agree. And I don't see why the separation of countries would prevent the union of the continent.
[+] [-] JaumeGreen|8 years ago|reply
Sorry but these stories ring untrue, given that Barcelona is both a huge touristic destination and most servers speaking Spanish as a rule.
[+] [-] bitL|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whatyoucantsay|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] farresito|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] notspanishflu|8 years ago|reply
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/08/catalonia-demo...
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/02/inenglish/1506943013_99...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/10/19...
[+] [-] nadunez|8 years ago|reply
That’s not true. Catalan leaders were given a few days to make it clear whether they had declared the independence or not, because after their joke referendum, they were intentionally vague about what they were going to do. Puigdemont dodged the question again so this is it.
They said they want to negotiate with the central government. In my opinion this is simply racketeering, they want a better deal with taxes. This must not stand.
Nothing of this would have happened if secessionists wouldn't have had full access to the education and the media of that region since forever. They have been blasting propaganda por decades. Of course this was bound to happen. I work in the media and I know there's no way to get a grant for your small paper/radio station if you don't align with their values.
There's a widespread sentiment that Spain "is robbing them". But the truth is that this is just redistributing wealth; many regions of Spain give money and others take. That's how the economy works everywhere.
[+] [-] rdudekul|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icebraining|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] farresito|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fiatjaf|8 years ago|reply
I really hope Catalonia makes it.
[+] [-] rayiner|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] synicalx|8 years ago|reply
1. They want to preserve their own culture, which is apparently distinct from Spain's.
2. They've some issue with the Spanish government, seems to be around corruption and/or unfair treatment. Don't know enough about this to comment on it though.
How does seceding make sense here? It's not the only solution, it's one of many, and it's probably one of the worst - they're going to torpedo Spain's recovering economy, and have to build a new country of their own. Who's going to run the hospitals? Where's the money/electricity/food/water/fuel etc coming from?
[+] [-] thetxef|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yellowapple|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justin66|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JaumeGreen|8 years ago|reply
Its main opponents, PSOE, does get decent results there, as does the alternative, PODEMOS.
So they have absolutely nothing to lose, politically speaking, losing us.
Not only that, but they have used, and still use, Catalonia as a ghost whom they fight, in order to gain votes in the rest of Spain.
And lastly, there are active cases against them by justice, all this is casting a smokescreen so people won't notice if they are declared guilty,or when they pardon their friends.
[+] [-] icebraining|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pipio21|8 years ago|reply
The central Government is not escalating anything, on the contrary, it has been extremely weak.
Imagine that some State in the US declares the president of the US has no decisions over his land, and that you follow your own local laws(made by you on the go) instead of the laws of your country. It will not take more than 5 minutes of that for the country to act.
The Parlament local laws said that you need two thirds of the Parlament in order to do anything serious. Those guys wanted to declare independence with half the seats plus one. Those seats represent less people that those that were not independentists.
In the case of Spain it has taken almost a month to do something, and most of the responsible people are out there free, earning a very good salary for trying to destroy the country.
In China when revolution won everything that Chinese elite did was bad, even if they did some things well, like having hygienic manners. As a result, living in China today is extremely disgusting.
In Spain the same happens with anything Franco dictatorship did. We always have to do the opposite of what Franco would have done.
So because Franco was nationalist and brave(he risked his life over 200 hundred times in battle) politicians believe that democracy needs to be against the nation and weakness the rule. They do not consider that you could be a democracy and take your country seriously.
So they made it legal for politicians that want to destroy the system be part of the System. They gave territories more autonomy, a local tv, local police, the education and health system.
Local police now is acting like a private independentists police(like the SA and SS were private armies of Hitler against Germany army and police). Local TV and radio uses their airtime to put loop videos of Spanish police "brutality" (nothing compared against last Germany action in the G20 summit or Britain with Brexit protests), where the local police has not followed orders by central Government.
The local health system(following also local orders) declared anyone having an anxiety crisis for watching local TV loops to be an officially "injured" by Spanish police. More than 200 "injured" by Spanish police had just watched TV.
[+] [-] JaumeGreen|8 years ago|reply
There will be a parlamentari meeting next week to debate what to do with the application of the 155 and how to respond. Has just said so in a televised speech.
Just with the inaccuracy you started marks all the rest you wrote as "things to doubt".
[+] [-] syshum|8 years ago|reply
We have a strong Federalist Society and I think it would take much longer than 5 mins to act.
While the US Federal Government has gain alot of power after the last 100 years it is still not the Top Dogs, Under the US Constitution the State governments can amend and/or abolish the Federal Government if they so choose.
The US Constitution is entirely about limiting the power and scope of the US Federal Government, a fact that seems to be lost both in international understanding of the US, and sadly domestically as well since we have more and more people thinking the Constitution is about "Giving people rights" or outlining what an individual can do, instead of its original and true purpose of defining what the government is allowed to do
Prime example of this is National Speed Limits, there is no way for the US Federal Government to demand a speed limit so when they wanted to establish said limit of 65, they had to do it by bribes and extortion they tied federal funding for roads to the passage of state laws establishing a 65 speed limit, states that did not pass such a law would lose billions in federal money
So no I do not believe the reaction would be as you think it would be here in the States
A more modern and pressing example is the ongoing conflict between several states and the US Federal Government over Marijuana where multiple states have now openly defied the federal laws on prohibition of this plant.
And on Immigration where they openly resist and obstruct enforcement of Federal Immigration Law.
No in the US the State government are regularly in opposition to the Federal Government
[+] [-] jseip|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Findeton|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] navigator01|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TomK32|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tqkxzugoaupvwqr|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] notspanishflu|8 years ago|reply
All European Union leaders support the rule according a higher law.
[+] [-] ryanlol|8 years ago|reply
When it is escalating.
[+] [-] jayniz|8 years ago|reply