Catalonian leaders are indeed approaching a dead end, and they do while a steamroller is coming from the other side, and this is the judiciary system. Right now most of the politicians are deep in red ink, in borrowed time.
They have asked multiple times to dialogue with Spain and negotiate a satisfactory outcome for all. But the steamroller doesn't stop. And who is on the driving seat of the judiary system/steamroller? Yes, the PP, the spanish nationalists, who have appointed the judiciary and are ready to bend it to their interest. Spain has one of the least independent judiciary systems in Europe.
And catalan politicians are in a dead end, because while there may be a majority for independence, nobody else is going to defend the legitimacy of a declaration of independence, and the more they resist, the more the steamroller accelerates and the darker the street.
What I see as the likely outcome is that catalan leaders will be jailed and only after PP loses majority/power, which is very likely in the next cycle, the catalan politicians will be pardoned.
Stop lying. The only thing that Puigdemont wanted to negotiate about was how to approach the independence. He takes it for granted, the goverment has nothing to do.
Can anyone (preferably from the region) share some link to a good serious source for a foreigner to understand the modern thing with this Catalonia thing? (preferably without the history bullshit because... people never make decision based on history that's just pretext).
Because every article about it I've clicked ended up as an example of horrible quality journalism! Either 0% facts, or too un-opinionated to be of any use, or the other extreme with the "it's the Russians behind it" wackos.
Like... why tf would people want to "break" a country that works so well, such as Spain?! Yeah, some regions are poorer and other are richer and also pay some of the bills of the poorer ones, but that's how a country works.
The issue of the Catalans is quite complex and I don't think that anybody will be able to make a short summary in a forum comment. The Wikipedia entry about Catalan Independence contains a lot of information but I would say that does not explain all the reasons:
My take: Catalans are a National Minority in Spain. Catalonia has its own government, culture, language and, quite important, different political culture. Just to give you an idea, the party of Rajoy (Spanish president) that wins with majority in Spain election after election, got only 8% of the votes in the Catalan Parliament.
After the death of the Fascist Dictator General Franco, many catalans thought that Catalonia would be able to thrive as a Nation inside of Spain. This general opinion lasted for many years but, since 10 years ago, the attacks of the Government of Spain against the autonomy of Catalonia have made many people change their minds and realize that that the only way Catalonia will survive is by getting its own State.
> why tf would people want to "break" a country that works so well
Spain does not work so well. It has a massive unemployment and some of the lowest salaries in Europe. The economy is f* up and the Spanish government just spent all the money that was supposed to be used to pay our public pensions once we retire.
Also, the most important thing for me, is that most of the politicians in the Spanish main political party (PP) have direct links with the Fascist Dictatorship. Could you imagine a minister in Germany was the son of a Nazi official? Well, this is quite common in Spain.
No, links, just someone from Spain that wants to give a somewhat "objective" opinion.
Catalonia has always had problems with the rest of Spain because of politicians.
Around the 17th century (don't quote me on this, I'm not good at history), the Castillians had been oppressed in terms of taxes, because they had started a revolution the king and lost. As Spain was suffering an economical crisis (how strange), they decided to collect the same taxes from Aragon as they had been from Castilla, and also to recruit 5000 soldiers (peasants) to fight in France. Catalonia, which was under Aragon's crown government, decided to secede and form a republic. They tried to ally with France, but what happened was that instead of fighting in France, Spanish and French fought in Catalonia. It ended up with France retiring from Spain but with some Catalan territories under their belt. After that, the kings mantained the tax benefits in Catalonia, because they didn't want another war. It is important to remakr that the kings were Austrian in this period of time.
Time after that, when Charles II, king of Spain in 1700 and with severe mental and physical problems, was about to die without descendants, he chose his grandnephew, Philip of Anjou as succesor.
Philip was French, and the Austrians didn't want a French king (Austria had been part of the Spanish empire). So they proposed a candidate, Leopold I's son, Charles. No one wanted to accept the other candidate, and even the people were divided, leading to a war known as the succession war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spanish_Succession
Philip, who had the Castillians support, won the war, and Aragon, which supported the Archduke Charles, lost its regional code of laws that every region (because Spain was composed of crowns and such) had.
Jumping into this days, Catalan politicians have been using this last part (being oppressed without their jurisdiction) as an excuse to ask for benefits. The problem is, no party has said no to them, and they have always gotten more. Recently they tried another time, and they got denied (when Artur Mas was the president in the Generalitat), that is why they started again with the independence threats. As they didn't get what they wanted, they forced it and it has shifted into a big snowball, too large to be stop already.
(Also, Catalonia had proclaimed independence before, but it got quickly shut down, and the president was taken to jail and after that executed, but bear in mind that this was while Franco was in the government. This is something they are using now to accuse the Spanish government of opression and other things.)
Sorry if there are typos, I'm writing this from a phone.
[+] [-] oriol16|8 years ago|reply
They have asked multiple times to dialogue with Spain and negotiate a satisfactory outcome for all. But the steamroller doesn't stop. And who is on the driving seat of the judiary system/steamroller? Yes, the PP, the spanish nationalists, who have appointed the judiciary and are ready to bend it to their interest. Spain has one of the least independent judiciary systems in Europe.
And catalan politicians are in a dead end, because while there may be a majority for independence, nobody else is going to defend the legitimacy of a declaration of independence, and the more they resist, the more the steamroller accelerates and the darker the street.
What I see as the likely outcome is that catalan leaders will be jailed and only after PP loses majority/power, which is very likely in the next cycle, the catalan politicians will be pardoned.
[+] [-] mcdevilkiller|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nnq|8 years ago|reply
Because every article about it I've clicked ended up as an example of horrible quality journalism! Either 0% facts, or too un-opinionated to be of any use, or the other extreme with the "it's the Russians behind it" wackos.
Like... why tf would people want to "break" a country that works so well, such as Spain?! Yeah, some regions are poorer and other are richer and also pay some of the bills of the poorer ones, but that's how a country works.
[+] [-] m00x|8 years ago|reply
- Quebec has a different official language (same with Calalonia)
- People from Quebec have a very different culture, which is more socialist.
- They constantly have businesses disrespecting their culture for sake of cost cutting.
- Their heritage is different. They don't care about the commonwealth, etc.
- They can survive on their own. They invested hard in environmentally friendly power sources and keeping ownership over their own resources.
- Other provinces disrespect their culture and right to be different.
- They pay a lot dividends to other provinces that are now broke because they sold ownership of their resources to third parties. (Alberta, NB, etc)
Disclaimer: I'm from NB, but most of my family lives in Quebec.
[+] [-] jdale27|8 years ago|reply
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...
[+] [-] 6t6t6t6|8 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence
My take: Catalans are a National Minority in Spain. Catalonia has its own government, culture, language and, quite important, different political culture. Just to give you an idea, the party of Rajoy (Spanish president) that wins with majority in Spain election after election, got only 8% of the votes in the Catalan Parliament.
After the death of the Fascist Dictator General Franco, many catalans thought that Catalonia would be able to thrive as a Nation inside of Spain. This general opinion lasted for many years but, since 10 years ago, the attacks of the Government of Spain against the autonomy of Catalonia have made many people change their minds and realize that that the only way Catalonia will survive is by getting its own State.
> why tf would people want to "break" a country that works so well
Spain does not work so well. It has a massive unemployment and some of the lowest salaries in Europe. The economy is f* up and the Spanish government just spent all the money that was supposed to be used to pay our public pensions once we retire.
Also, the most important thing for me, is that most of the politicians in the Spanish main political party (PP) have direct links with the Fascist Dictatorship. Could you imagine a minister in Germany was the son of a Nazi official? Well, this is quite common in Spain.
[+] [-] blackbagboys|8 years ago|reply
If you seriously believe this, then I don't think you have much of a chance of understanding much of anything
[+] [-] mcdevilkiller|8 years ago|reply
(Also, Catalonia had proclaimed independence before, but it got quickly shut down, and the president was taken to jail and after that executed, but bear in mind that this was while Franco was in the government. This is something they are using now to accuse the Spanish government of opression and other things.)
Sorry if there are typos, I'm writing this from a phone.
[+] [-] kevwil|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gcristofol|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DonbunEf7|8 years ago|reply