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Estonia, the Digital Republic

351 points| jkaljundi | 8 years ago |newyorker.com | reply

110 comments

order
[+] phil248|8 years ago|reply
Just a fun geography tip, you can easily remember the locations of the 3 Baltic states because they go in alphabetical order from North to South. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania.
[+] _acme|8 years ago|reply
Estonia, however, is more Nordic than it is Baltic, other than in geography: its people and language are Finnic (neither Indo-European nor related to Latvian/Lithuanian) and it's been part of Denmark or Sweden for most of its history; there were even Estonian vikings.
[+] masswerk|8 years ago|reply
I know, this may be unpopular in context, but are there any updates on the Estonian ID-cards?

News as of November were that they were (temporarily) locked-down [1] and are to be reissued until next March [2] in reaction to the RSA related security flaws [3] in the libraries bundled with the Infineon chip. Is this even an issue, or is everyone using a phone app, instead of the cards, anyway?

[1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/03/estonian_e_id_lockd...

[2] http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-41858583

[3] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/09/security_flaw...

[+] sccxy|8 years ago|reply
Most people who use ID card every day have updated certs remotely or went to police office. I would say government handled it pretty well.

Problematic was communication with card maker Gemalto, who didn't inform Estonia about security flaws properly. Gemalto was informed by researchers in March. These researchers informed Estonian government in August. Few days after that prime minister announced security problems.

Things would have been a lot of easier if Gemalto didn't hide the problem from the government.

[+] clon|8 years ago|reply
Most people I interact with (here in EE) were not too much affected by the problem, since a lot of people actually use MobileID, with the crypto chip embedded in the SIM card of your smartphone, which was unaffected and available for like 10€ from each telco in Estonia. Saves you from lugging around a smartcard reader. Depending on your threat model, the fact that the PIN never enters computer memory is an advantage for MobileID, unless you prefer a proper PIN-pad reader.
[+] daeroth|8 years ago|reply
They released software that allowed you to update the certificates on your card.

They then gave a limited time frame for every one to migrate their cards over. Either with the software update or going to the police department and having them do it for you.

After the deadline they declared all older cards digitally invalid. Meaning that you can still use it as a physical ID but not for online auth or signing processes.

[+] clon|8 years ago|reply
Not sure when physical replacements start shipping, but the latest companion software (https://id.ee) offers a pretty smooth online key regeneration feature.
[+] logronoide|8 years ago|reply
They asked for certificate updates to continue using the cards.

I don’t use them on a daily basis, because I use an app for authentication, much faster.

[+] matiasb|8 years ago|reply
I updated the certificates using the tool they provide. Anyway I'm using the app most of the time.
[+] fijal|8 years ago|reply
Just opened a company in Estonia. The experience so far has been incredible. It's not quite the future - all the technologies should exist everywhere etc. It's the present that should have been, but somehow it's not.
[+] matiasb|8 years ago|reply
I opened a company last year. In my country we can't access Paypal or Stripe and international bank transfers are painful. I had to travel to Estonia because of the KYC stuff from the bank, the rest of the process was completed remotely.

Also the deposit insurance in my country is quite low, so saving money in Estonia is a good option for me.

I'm using the LHV Bank, they give you a multi-currency account, a great mobile application and also access to different worldwide markets (for investments, etc.).

[+] puranjay|8 years ago|reply
Curious to know: what's your home country? What are the tax implications for you locally?
[+] crypt1d|8 years ago|reply
Me too! I used leapin for the whole process. Never had a more pleasant experience with bureaucratic procedures.
[+] icey|8 years ago|reply
I'm getting ready to do this but haven't figured out a way to open a bank account there without visiting the country. How did you do that? I saw there's a service that will do it for you but it seems like an expensive monthly fee.
[+] lukasm|8 years ago|reply
Why did you do it in Estonia?
[+] elorant|8 years ago|reply
Can you open a company without visiting the country?
[+] unitboolean|8 years ago|reply
Meanwhile in Germany:

- you can't even send an email to tax authorities and have to print/send paper letters

- mobile internet is very slow and super expensive.

- until recently it was not even possible to share your wlan

[+] expertentipp|8 years ago|reply
I don't think something working for 2 mln nation scales up for 80 mln nation. Anyways the German paper and post fetish, and active fight against any internet in wireless form is obnoxious.
[+] camillomiller|8 years ago|reply
This! I finished my 4GB with Blau and they don’t have any option to top them up. Just be ok with a limited connection at 64kbps, was their support reply. Insane.
[+] germanier|8 years ago|reply
It's still not perfect but most messages to the tax authorities can be send electronically via Elster. Companies are even required to do their filings electronically and can't do them on paper anymore.

Many tax authorities will communicate with you via email if you sign a form that you understand that email is not encrypted (for regular questions, proper applications need to be done via Elster).

[+] puranjay|8 years ago|reply
I keep seeing a ton of ads for starting a company in Estonia.

To those who've done it, what are the pros/cons?

For the record, I'm based out of India and have been advised to setup in Singapore

[+] logronoide|8 years ago|reply
For me, it’s cheaper to run a company in Estonia than my country (an EU country). You don’t pay taxes if you company has benefits. You pay taxes for the dividends only, which makes the company perfect for very early stages.

Also, for an international business a company based in Estonia looks more reliable and “techie” than other countries. And this is important if You sell digital goods or services.

I think Singapore can be a good place too, but it’s much more complicated for me.

[+] twfarland|8 years ago|reply
Terrible experience here. Endless problems with the ID card, slow, unhelpful support, clunky company admin portal with poor translations. Got spammed by random accounting firms as soon as I was on the company register. I gave up and decided to just continue using my NZ-based company in the end. They need to do a better job if they want to live up to their self-congratulatory marketing.
[+] dijit|8 years ago|reply
Well, if you're trading in Europe that's a huge benefit. But also the big selling factor is how much of their governmental services are digitised and unified. It makes dealing with anything like taxes quite convenient.

It's quite smart for Estonia to do this because they have quite a lot of brain-drain. Lots of up-and-coming educated Estonians end up leaving the country to persue jobs in Europe due to the lack of companies operating locally.

Trasferwise is capitalising on this, but the government sees it as a reason to heavily invest in making companies want to be in Estonia.

[+] comstock|8 years ago|reply
It takes time, I think from initial application to having the company set up, it was about 2 months. One month waiting for authorization, another month for the card to arrive.

Setting up the company is then easy. To set up a full bank account you need to go to Estonia. You can setup a transferwise account which gives you a banking facility however.

There are other countries where you can setup companies quicker, or with better tax implications. But I don’t think there’s a good option in the EU.

If I were you, I’d get the e-residency card now and have it available if you want to quickly start a company later.

[+] freedomben|8 years ago|reply
I think it's time we expected more from our government.
[+] markvdb|8 years ago|reply
E-government in Estonia, all fine and dandy[0]. But there is so incredibly much low hanging fruit to fix on an administrative level, all over the EU...

I recently completed an advanced level of "Kafka quest": a 40-day fight with the city administration of Leuven, Belgium. The goal? Change the marital status of my Latvian(EU!) girlfriend in the Belgian(EU!) civil registry. From "undetermined" to "single".

-"No, we can't accept printouts from an electronic service. It doesn't look like our examples, nothing at all like what we have."

-"But it's the only marital status the Latvian civil registry gives out since a few years. Have a look at this explanation on the relevant Latvian government website. In English. With a Dutch translation I made to help you."

-"I'll have to ask my boss."

-(two weeks, several emails and phone calls later) "OK, we can accept this document. You don't even have to get a court stamp to legalise it. But it needs to be translated. To Dutch. All eleven pages, even if we need only that single word "single". No, google translate for the relevant bits won't do. No, you can't translate it yourself. It has to be done by a certified translator. Here's a list."

- Leuven official sends me a list of certified translators. No certified translator for Latvian on it. I find one online, in a city 100km away.

- Certified translator translates the 11 page document for us. Gives us a discount because it doesn't need a certified translation.

- Make an appointment a week in advance (the fastest possible) with the city government, then back to the Leuven city hall.

-"Ah, when we said it the civil registry excerpt was free of legalisation, we meant the original only. The certified translated copy needs to legalised. By the court of the city the translator is attached to."

- Back to the translator in the city 100km away, to request legalisation by the local court of her translation of a source document that is free of legalisation.

- Wait another two weeks for the stamped document to arrive by snail mail.

- Make another appointment with the city services.

But fear not, for there is hope! In a few years, so I learned, standardised paper forms will be developed to exchange this kind of information within the EU, hopefully eliminating the need for certified, legalised translations.[1]

[0] ...except for the fundamental conceptual insecurity of voting from home of course.

[1] http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELE... for a bit more context.

[+] zaarn|8 years ago|reply
In germany I'd call this tuesday and everyday that isn't tuesday. The amount of paperwar that I had to deal with at times was insane.
[+] patkai|8 years ago|reply
I'm a big fan of Estonia, Estonians and during my many visits I admired how quickly they transformed their small but not insignificant country to an innovative model nation. I hope they can stop brain drain and our Estonian colleagues realise that they have a 10 times bigger impact on the world if they stay there than if they move to Silicon Valley or other bigger hubs.
[+] blahedo|8 years ago|reply
The most interesting part of an interesting article was the bit near the bottom about "kratt law"—conceptualising the idea of wanting to "make it possible to hold accountable whoever gave a drop of blood." It's a beautiful and highly comprehensible metaphor.
[+] sexydefinesher|8 years ago|reply
Imagine if they one day actually got invaded and we would see the start of the distributed republics of Neal Stephenson.
[+] superdug|8 years ago|reply
I might actually have an idea of what the article was talking about, but after reading 5 paragraphs about the road and lawn I just kind of gave up.
[+] twelvechairs|8 years ago|reply
I agree - I prefer dry facts and really dislike the trend of news written like narrative. I usually turn off after the first sentence (invariably an attempt to write like a 19th century novelist) because I know its going to be 10 minutes before i figure out if there's anything of value to me in its content (I acknowledge that sometimes there is and I'll miss out).
[+] elorant|8 years ago|reply
Well that's New Yorker, they're the kings of long reads.