Lately I've become more and more convinced that indeed, modern society sucks, or at the very least that I, and people like me, am not well equipped to flourish in it. I'm sure some people are though, but I suspect they are becoming the minority.
Few days ago I also read Ted Kaczynski's essay[1], and it's hard for me not to acknowledge how right he is on many points.
However, I do believe it is possible to survive all this, and that stoicism is a way. Kaczynski wrote for instance :
"It is true that primitive man is powerless against some of the things that
threaten him; disease for example. But he can accept the risk of disease
stoically. It is part of the nature of things, it is no one’s fault, unless it
is the fault of some imaginary, impersonal demon. But threats to the modern
individual tend to be MAN-MADE. They are not the results of chance but are
IMPOSED on him by other persons whose decisions he, as an individual, is unable
to influence. Consequently he feels frustrated, humiliated and angry."
Is it not possible for the modern man to accept the drawbacks of modern life, including loneliness, just as stoically as the primitive man was accepting adversity and death? Whether adversity is man-made or "natural" should not matter for the individual. From the stoic point of view, in each case it is just an external factor.
It seems to me that as long as someone understands what is happening to him, he can make his mind at peace with it, whatever it is. Was it not after all one of the lessons of Epictetus, that what matters is not so much what happens to us, but how we react to it? That as long as we are ready for the worst, we can not really be troubled by it?
> Is it not possible for the modern man to accept the drawbacks of modern life, including loneliness, just as stoically as the primitive man was accepting adversity and death?
Primitive men weren't stoic. We attribute that quality to them because we now understand how common diseases work and why they were so prominent in that time. That understanding -part of the advantages of modern life- has forever changed our perspective on the subject.
For primitive men, life was probably terrifying and a constant struggle. When someone in the tribe got sick, they didn't say "oh well, that's life! What can you do?". They'd attribute it to some supernatural force that was clearly angry at them for something they did. That's why they created various superstitions and rituals, as a way to combat the things they could not understand and control. That's not exactly being stoic.
That being said, I do believe that some people are not equipped to deal with modern life, and that a larger degree of solitude is part of that life.
I'm lucky in the sense that, for me, being alone does not have an emotional tax. I enjoy being alone as much as I enjoy being in good company (and because you cannot always count on the company to be good, i'd say I enjoy it even more). I'm not saying I like to be alone sometimes. I really enjoy being alone for extended periods of time and could imagine living the rest of my life alone to some degree (I do like the rhythm of modern cities). But I understand the frustration of those who cannot endure solitude or get a feeling of loneliness from it.
I wouldn't say modern society sucks, though. It has a lot going for it, but it's obviously not perfect.
It’s also possible to live differently. I played the stoic for decades until the isolation of being a business owner living in a city pushed me over the brink.
I’ve struggled with loneliness my entire life - and adult life has been worse than childhood. I started boarding school at six - and while I was homesick for some time, the camaraderie of other inmates, uh, students, was the only thing that kept me mildly sane - I had people to look out for and protect, and similarly people looked out for and protected me.
As an adult, I’ve unwittingly repeatedly chosen lonely paths - moving frequently for several years before settling down and starting a business. I spent my days surrounded by people with nobody to relate to - I can be friendly with employees and clients, but I can’t be friends. I can’t confide about what worries me.
Either way, I broke - I spent most of 2016 having anxiety attacks that’d see me vomit for weeks on end, to the extent that I ended up hospitalised several times with severe dehydration and hypoglycaemia. I passed on the reins and left.
I now live on the edge of a village in the middle of nowhere north wales. I have drinks or go for walks with with my 93 and 84 year old neighbours most days. I’ve made friends with all sorts, just by saying hello to folks as they walk past the cottage.
My financial future is uncertain - but as I write this I am so happy it brings tears to my eyes.
We’ve really forgotten what’s important - and there’s a story about a chap called Midas that we could all do to learn a thing or two from.
I learned from Zen Buddhism the same idea that you share here. Indeed, if we treat other people like other act of god, i.e. as things that don't act but just are, a lot of stress, anger, and sadness will vanish [1]. Zen and Stoicism are similar in their promotion of acceptance. I happen to feel more drawn to Zen because of their comprehensive guide towards how to achieve this acceptance.
You're treading close to nihilism here, which is a dangerous way to live. The article has a good quote:
"The great prophylactic against loneliness is feeling that you are part of something bigger than yourself – a family, a friendship group, a community, a benign universe, whatever. Even a community with little in the way of material resources finds some contentment in being in a group of people who are all in it together."
When you're feeling the way you feel you can retreat from the world and try to treat everything with detachment and equanimity, but I think that's a losing proposition. It puts you in a passive role and makes you feel like you don't have much control of your life. It's better to take a more active role in life and find something that you value and work towards that. What it is doesn't really matter as long as you pick something that has a least some significance to you and that involves other people.
Viktor Frankl, a concentration camp survivor, would agree with your last point. He wrote Man's Search for Meaning, and one of his main points is that sometimes you can't control what happens in life, only how you choose to act while enduring it.
It's a pretty amazing book. And really brings things into sharp contrast. You might be struggling with work (and I've been in that struggle myself, it's not fun, and hard to escape from), but this man managed to to make it through one of the worst atrocities ever committed against fellow humans, and not fall to pieces as a result of it.
Radicals would say that it's politically problematic to expect individuals to take up any slack with their own resilience/fortitude.
Telling people that they must learn to bear their suffering, rather than receive substantial support from (a possibly reorganized) system, is, of course, a very inexpensive form of wellbeing intervention.
I have a theory about stoicism in the past vs. stoicism in the present. Keep in mind that I say this all from a very North American point of view (born in Iran, but grew up in Canada).
In the past, there was no guard against disease. If it came, you were done for. There were some limited options available when it came to medicine, but by and large, if you got a disease, that was it. It was out of your hands, and even if you wanted to, you couldn't do anything.
In the present, there are a lot of solutions that can be solved with enough access to capital. It's possible now, not impossible as it was prior, to cure yourself of certain ailments, if only you live in the right place, have the right amount of money (or social security), etc. To a certain degree, living in a particular place and access to capital can be a matter of personal choice. A lot of the time, not enough to get you the treatment you need, but enough to give you the sense of having some measure of control.
Having a measure of control but being powerless is new to modern life.
That's what I think, at least. What does HN think?
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Industrial Society and it's Future really hit home for me a month ago when I first came across it. I feel you.
Is there any reason to believe that primitive people did not fought each other, did not bullied each other and did not enslaved each other? When primitive dude hits smaller one or rapes primitive girl, how is it not man made?
How do we know they were stoic? How do we know they were not stressed or frustrated?
I would say fooling your mind is not easy. Definition of mind is "something that seeks" to want a "mind that doesn't seek" is meaningless and absurd. Its like wanting a nose that doesn't breathe.
Sure you can come up with various philosophies like stoicism, Buddhism ect but you are merely trading one loop of seeking for another. Now you are stuck in a 'non-seeking' loop and failure to achieve 'non-seeking'.
I had to google Ted Kaczinski (I'm not American), so I just want to mention here that Ted Kaczinski is a terrorist and mass murderer. No criticism on your post itself btw, I just felt it's relevant context.
Personally, going to Church has helped me suffer less with loneliness. I've made meaningful friendships, and relationships with people from all sorts of backgrounds. It has given more meaning to my life than anything I found at work, or by random socialising.
Of course, YMMV. Please take this as a random anecdote, not as evangelism.
I think a large part of the problem is that the younger generations have grown up with pretty strong expectations placed upon them to do things like go to college (at whatever cost), land a white collar job, climb the ladder, etc.
The obvious solution is to own your decisions and start doing what you think is right for you, but it's far easier said than done to step out from under the expectations you've been saddled with your entire life.
Expectations and also demands; as the precariat grows, and the unnecessariat under it, there's steadily more risk to striking out on one's own.
Certainly a six-figure salary is not necessary for happiness, but if you find yourself working long hours to make rent in some midwestern town it's going to cut into your opportunities for self-discovery and joy. And if you got wise a bit too late, after picking up federal student loans, you might well find that your dream career is genuinely off the table. (Found your true calling as a firefighter? Better keep up on those loans or you'll lose your license.)
It seems like we've created a system where the straight-and-narrow is increasingly narrow, and the cliffs around it are increasingly high. It's still worth finding one's own path, but in both social and purely-practical terms it's gotten steadily harder.
I think you are right. Just the other day there was a posting in our anonymous university group chat and someone complained how she thinks she is unable to start and finish masters degree and its thesis work. The first suggestion which adviced taking time off to re-evaluate her choices of continuing with graduate studies were downvoted. Instead, replies supporting going through the masters with various lifehacks, even though the OP clearly states she doesn't want to do it, were upvoted.
I understand its natural for students to pep talk their peers to study more, but I don't understand why controversial suggestions are being dismissed. I almost feel like these calls for help are just seeking validation to continue hoop jumping instead of actually finding alternative ways to fix the root cause. It makes me sad to think that my peers don't think they are ready for working life until they graduate, whilst I would, as an employer, much rather hire someone capable of self-inspection and listening of people with differentiating viewpoints.
That's exactly it, I think. Not long ago when I was still in high school, many of my peers worked incredibly hard to be able to go to college. I'm not sure that many of them knew exactly what they wanted to study while in college, but I know that many of them went away and then came back because it "wasn't for them"; whether that means they were lonely as described in this article, or realized that what they were studying and where was a mistake for them. Either way, last I checked, many of my peers are back at home in familiar territory.
As I'm not a parent, I have no idea how the modern child is raised or how the modern parent is "expected" to raise their kid, but I get the feeling that, on the whole, creativity and exploration aren't encouraged in young children; rather their lives revolve around structured activities where the agenda is decided ahead of time for them. That's a great way to keep kids busy, but I'm not sure if or how it develops their brains and senses of independence... But I have no actual proof of that claim, just anecdotal evidence from seeing my aunt and grandparents raise my younger cousins.
Best solution to loneliness is to gain massive debt, become dirt poor, and battle daily with attention deficit issues while you struggle to learn and become productive enough to get a job in the software industry with a pretty horrible work history, an incomplete bachelors, and a near worthless associates.
Living one rung lower on Maslow's hierarchy makes you forget about the desire to be around people, or even leave the house (father's) all that often (2% of the time).
Granted, I think maybe my concern for my health (irrational or not) has been exacerbated, so I've traded loneliness for frequent panic attacks concerning whether or not I might have cancer or a heart defect. On the plus side, I know for a fact that I've torn back muscles weight lifting, so all I really need is the medicaid office to get back to me after submitting my 4th application with no phone calls or emails as to my status.
For the past year, I've been working on the social isolation problem. Here's the idea we're currently developing. Would love to hear folks' feedback. Would you be excited about using this?
"A social app, like Tinder but for hangouts with friends.
See what your friends want to do, and swipe right to show you’re interested. You can also join hangouts in the global feed to instantly expand your social circle. Hangouts are capped at 10 people so you can actually get to know each other. Post things you want to do, like "Hike in John Muir". When 10 people swipe right, a chat opens up so you can coordinate when to meet & who is down to go."
You might like to read "The Anatomy of Friendship". People are basically hardwired to like people they're physically close to and come into contact with regularly, so try to tick those two boxes.
The trouble with an app like this is that if it works and people become friends they'll probably just switch to the lowest common denominator/free platform, e.g. facebook/whatsapp to coordinate, so monetisation could be tricky. I.e. if your app is 100% efficient, people may use it once then not return.
You also have the added challenge of seeding this "two-sided" marketplace (people suggesting activities and those saying they'll attend) in every locality you want to operate in, so you'll need a compelling growth strategy. It also sinks or swims on people actually turn up for events.
Good luck - I do think Meetup sucks and could be far better, but I think you'd need a lucky break/very interesting twist to really gain traction.
I have been thinking about this a lot too. My solution is more low tech.Humans are designed to live in communities but modern communities are very isolating. My indian friends in America live in a close knit indian community and live next to each other. I've noticed that they don't suffer from same social isolation as other americans do.
My solution is to scale this to everyone, A housing colony with community kitchen and hangout areas. More like a less intense urban co-op. This is probably also a solution to healtcare crisis in america, healthy food + social belonging == well being.
There are already apps like Meetup which help people 'meet up' with others, make new friends etc, but their purpose is not explicitly about making friends.
Ultimately, though, getting yourself to an event with other people is only part of the problem, you still need to be able to connect with the people you meet, introduce yourself, have a conversation, bond.
If you really want to create an app to tackle social isolation, maybe you could look at something that helps people improve their social skills instead, a sort of online tutor. There are definitely a lot of tricks to be learned to thrive in social situations, and while some people seem innately more equipped, I believe almost everyone can learn them to some degree.
These ideas always ended up becoming dating apps in the past so the idea to restrict it to your existing social circle is a smart one. I would consider using it if it was well executed.
Instead of an app I think we need to rethink our living arrangements.
Where I live (Japan) living alone is the new norm. After I moved out of university dorms I've lived in little shoebox apartments with my own little kitchen, my own little bathroom and no need to cross paths with any of the other 100 people in my building at all. I see that a lot of the new apartment blocks around my city are full of small, single-occupancy apartments too.
There are no communal spaces. There are no chance encounters. People seem to feel like there is too much risk in meeting new people, let alone dining with them.
There have been some shared houses popping up here and there. But they are viewed as as exceptional and unconventional. Social interaction has become a peculiar character trait rather than a normal part of life.
I have approached the problem from another angle. My hypothesis is that social groups only form through continued joint experiences. The easiest way is to achieve this is go to regularly go to free events. I have build drop!in [1] for the event discovery and message your friends informally that you will be going.
Interestingly just a couple of day I wrote about the topic of loneliness in the modern age at my medium [2]
I'm not sure if it has any value, but it was an attempt to lower the barrier of entry to hanging out with people, and at least it's a fun challenge to work on!
Would you say this is a more low entry barrier meetup.com? I think its hard for women to join these kinds of things due to high prevalence of "creepers". Once its mostly men, the platform is dead.
Great idea, I'd do it somewhat like this if i had a large enough team:
features needed to be successful:
--STack overflow/HN/Reddit style Rep or magical internet points: These things are important, look how compelling they are for people to go out of their way to do things.... If you can tap into this so people go out of their way... to leave their house and socialize. even if its superficial for internet points, its helping adn putting them in the right direction.
--badges, via Audible App/Duolingo App, and other big sites that have probably spent big $$$$ coming to the conclusion that these things increase engagement. Have badges for 'hung out with same person in same meetup event 6 times in a row...(having social interactions with the same people over and over again builds better connections.) also: hung out with a newb (low reputation) and a (insert great noun here warlock/mage (gender neutral)/pilot etcc.) basically a veteran socializer in same group.(sub point... people can get different avatar badges i dunno anything to make it optionally fun/kooky not so serious, adds a great common talking point when players (social players) get together in a meetup.
--these things can also be refactored to mimic Riot games 'League of Legends' game, a free to play game, that is the #1 esports game in the world, with more viewers than NBA finals. They use 'riot points' as a way to make $ so players can customize / stylize/express uniqueness in game with skins on base models... anyways point being that there oculd be points like this which allow people to 'enhance a meetup' so anyone attending gets a bunch of rep, or gets a hat, or gets a badge etc etc... maybe it costs the person activating it 10$, but its totally worth it for them cause the nerdy players coming are psyched for the __Free__ magical internet points or magical virtual hat or whatever. Also you can tie it into businesses and volunteer organizations in your local town. Like, meetup at foodbank berlin, foodbank Newyork, southside to volunteer and get XXXX extra points, or increase your volunteer badge etc.. heck put in a talent-tree a la duolingo/diablo for volunteering advancment haha (this step would require late stage company growht with lots of emplyees / communtiy mgrs and operations to avoid corruption and loopholes in this system)
At the end of each meetup have an optional form players can fill out ascribing strange nouns or adjectives to other players (green rooted dandelion, extreme fluff shark, ported slime swamp) a la heroku/gfycat slug style. They wont ever know, the exact attributions they receive but every 6 months some strange algorithm takes the inputs and generates a strange pokemon style creature or item and gives it to them.
then fractal-idea-spiral off this and include them in meetup invites with other players who have been given randomly given similar creatures. so then the commonality in that unique meetup is the strange-ass reward they receive in this game.
also see Yelp, and how they have community events, could probably snipe some ideas from that to increase peoples local engagement in this. Or, plug into yelps api and have food based events where people meetup based on local deals restaurants are having. then have sub games inside the meetup like who can take the best photo of a drink shrine, where everyone stacks their drinks/cans of sodas in an intricate pattern, or who can make the best fries shrine or some weird art construction thing like that. they are all passed into a NN-imageclassifier you have running that tries to accurately match em to ancient temple shrines as well as pictures of fries etc...make up some function to give each picture a score. whatever the challenge is. This is crazy dumb, but thats the point its some kooky dumb thing they are doing together and its fun its social. also great press cause it will generate weird headlines.
There would be lots of features/game modes in this app, the food one above being an example. so like LeagueOfLegends, make some of them unlockable (2-5$), but have them on 'rotation' so they are always playable eventualyl throughout say, 2-3 months, also players can eventually unlock em wihtout paying, by using the points they accumulated.
I think I have suffered from loneliness before. A stomach-stabbing loneliness really. No friends to truly communicate, going on car drives with no destination/intention but to just think, walking in the evening hoping someone would strike a conversation, etc. Though I find my loneliness usually arises because I expect something different than what already is. Expecting something different than what is is a way to suffer (accept what is, and you’re free?). Consequently, I find that I must make a home out of this loneliness. You know how when you move into a new place and you are organizing or reorganizing or maybe decorationing your work station at home to make it feel comfortable and home-y? Well, that’s what I think I had to do internally to make my loneliness not loneliness. I suppose convert loneliness into solitude.
Then again, I have this vague thought that many people suffer from loneliness (depression, etc) because of how we are raised, how society, culture, civilization, have molded our minds. I think in modern day, consciousness is everything. But because it’s an unknowable object, we ignore it or worse: pretend it doesn’t exist. Consequently, we end up hard-headed in a matrix of half-baked beliefs, lonely, depressed, fearful, and anxious. I don’t know, the whole social order I think is set up in order to avoid the unknowable, if you will, of what everything is. The idea that the radio is blaring at all times. That we are all taught to listen to channels but never taught to turn it off and listen to the silence. If only we were to listen we would see that from the unknowable arises a reflection; the consciousness of everything, the I-am. At this point, I think, sort of in the poverty of true humility, everything that appears is seen as a miracle. The birds chirping in the morning is as much of a miracle as being in the perfect spot in the knowable universe for life to exist. The question then arises: Why is it that we remain deaf/blind running around anxiously in the noise when pure consciousness is right here out in the open all the time?
Above all: I think loneliness may be combated through several forms: reading really good fiction, doing drugs (weed in particular), having passionate sex, or any form of escapism. I find that the latter are only temporary ways to combat loneliness. If we would like to conquer loneliness, making a home of yourself and reflecting on what truly is is really important.
Have you thought about taking upon more responsibility? Be it to your community, to a volunteer organization, pets, and even plants. Modern society is malnourished when it comes to the sense of belonging.
“The higher degree of responsibility that you agree voluntarily to try to bear the richer your life will be.” -Jordan Peterson
And talk about modern online dating. It takes defeat to a wholly new level. Back in the day one could be rejected by a handful of ladies in a conventional setting (bar, club, whatever). Now when you're dating online you can instantly rejected by an infinite number of women \o/
Modern society may have issues, but it as bad as it is usually portrayed.
10,000 years ago, you would live in a tribe. If you were not popular among your tribe, it is likely you would be either exiled and forced to live in solitude and die during winter or be constantly subject to violence.
2,000 years ago, you would live only to work in a farm or be in a state of perpetual war. To make things worse, literacy rate was something around 0.001%, if you were lucky.
1,000 years ago, you would be essentially doing the same while dying from a plague. There was no sanitation of any kind.
200 years ago, you would be working at a factory and going to war every 30 years.
>How can a person be expected to be happy with, and in, themselves when the eternal message is: “Try harder, do better, climb higher, don’t fail”?
"Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.
What does it mean that success is as dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
Your position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
You will always keep your balance.
What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
That arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
What do we have to fear?
See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
Then you can care for all things."
I don't think number of lonely people increases, they just become much more visible. Social networks and other changes in modern society make loneliness acceptable and people stop hiding it.
I think individualistic cultures like the West can only work by teaching their members many subconscious habits for pushing away other people. That's great because it enables individual creativity (not to mention freedom from some ugly hierarchies we'd rather forget about), but the flip side is that people feel more distant from each other.
Thankfully, solving this problem doesn't require changing all of society. You can solve it for yourself: take a few years to notice and unlearn your habits for pushing away other people. I'm confident that you have many such habits right now, from the way you stare at your phone in public, to your posture and facial expressions every minute of the day.
To give you a picture of the end result, imagine a stereotypical immigrant from a more collectivist culture. Their reputation for openness isn't undeserved.
Not having things in common with others doesn't exactly provoke loneliness. You can be lonely around people you have a lot in common with.
Worst thing is that if you don't start a conversation you won't even know whether you do have anything in common.
This is actually why I am so concerned with (as in: working towards) the elimination of all jobs. "But what will people do?" I am often asked, as if the worth of someone is determined by their job. They can write bad poetry or watch TV, but I suspect and hope that a lot of the time will be spent with others. Humans are social animals.
[+] [-] grondilu|8 years ago|reply
Few days ago I also read Ted Kaczynski's essay[1], and it's hard for me not to acknowledge how right he is on many points.
However, I do believe it is possible to survive all this, and that stoicism is a way. Kaczynski wrote for instance :
"It is true that primitive man is powerless against some of the things that threaten him; disease for example. But he can accept the risk of disease stoically. It is part of the nature of things, it is no one’s fault, unless it is the fault of some imaginary, impersonal demon. But threats to the modern individual tend to be MAN-MADE. They are not the results of chance but are IMPOSED on him by other persons whose decisions he, as an individual, is unable to influence. Consequently he feels frustrated, humiliated and angry."
Is it not possible for the modern man to accept the drawbacks of modern life, including loneliness, just as stoically as the primitive man was accepting adversity and death? Whether adversity is man-made or "natural" should not matter for the individual. From the stoic point of view, in each case it is just an external factor.
It seems to me that as long as someone understands what is happening to him, he can make his mind at peace with it, whatever it is. Was it not after all one of the lessons of Epictetus, that what matters is not so much what happens to us, but how we react to it? That as long as we are ready for the worst, we can not really be troubled by it?
1. http://editions-hache.com/essais/pdf/kaczynski2.pdf
[+] [-] wklauss|8 years ago|reply
Primitive men weren't stoic. We attribute that quality to them because we now understand how common diseases work and why they were so prominent in that time. That understanding -part of the advantages of modern life- has forever changed our perspective on the subject.
For primitive men, life was probably terrifying and a constant struggle. When someone in the tribe got sick, they didn't say "oh well, that's life! What can you do?". They'd attribute it to some supernatural force that was clearly angry at them for something they did. That's why they created various superstitions and rituals, as a way to combat the things they could not understand and control. That's not exactly being stoic.
That being said, I do believe that some people are not equipped to deal with modern life, and that a larger degree of solitude is part of that life.
I'm lucky in the sense that, for me, being alone does not have an emotional tax. I enjoy being alone as much as I enjoy being in good company (and because you cannot always count on the company to be good, i'd say I enjoy it even more). I'm not saying I like to be alone sometimes. I really enjoy being alone for extended periods of time and could imagine living the rest of my life alone to some degree (I do like the rhythm of modern cities). But I understand the frustration of those who cannot endure solitude or get a feeling of loneliness from it.
I wouldn't say modern society sucks, though. It has a lot going for it, but it's obviously not perfect.
[+] [-] madaxe_again|8 years ago|reply
I’ve struggled with loneliness my entire life - and adult life has been worse than childhood. I started boarding school at six - and while I was homesick for some time, the camaraderie of other inmates, uh, students, was the only thing that kept me mildly sane - I had people to look out for and protect, and similarly people looked out for and protected me.
As an adult, I’ve unwittingly repeatedly chosen lonely paths - moving frequently for several years before settling down and starting a business. I spent my days surrounded by people with nobody to relate to - I can be friendly with employees and clients, but I can’t be friends. I can’t confide about what worries me.
Either way, I broke - I spent most of 2016 having anxiety attacks that’d see me vomit for weeks on end, to the extent that I ended up hospitalised several times with severe dehydration and hypoglycaemia. I passed on the reins and left.
I now live on the edge of a village in the middle of nowhere north wales. I have drinks or go for walks with with my 93 and 84 year old neighbours most days. I’ve made friends with all sorts, just by saying hello to folks as they walk past the cottage.
My financial future is uncertain - but as I write this I am so happy it brings tears to my eyes.
We’ve really forgotten what’s important - and there’s a story about a chap called Midas that we could all do to learn a thing or two from.
[+] [-] noobhacker|8 years ago|reply
[1] Within Zen, this idea is captured in the parable of an "empty boat." http://omswami.com/2015/09/the-empty-boat.html
[+] [-] workthrowaway27|8 years ago|reply
"The great prophylactic against loneliness is feeling that you are part of something bigger than yourself – a family, a friendship group, a community, a benign universe, whatever. Even a community with little in the way of material resources finds some contentment in being in a group of people who are all in it together."
When you're feeling the way you feel you can retreat from the world and try to treat everything with detachment and equanimity, but I think that's a losing proposition. It puts you in a passive role and makes you feel like you don't have much control of your life. It's better to take a more active role in life and find something that you value and work towards that. What it is doesn't really matter as long as you pick something that has a least some significance to you and that involves other people.
[+] [-] cableshaft|8 years ago|reply
It's a pretty amazing book. And really brings things into sharp contrast. You might be struggling with work (and I've been in that struggle myself, it's not fun, and hard to escape from), but this man managed to to make it through one of the worst atrocities ever committed against fellow humans, and not fall to pieces as a result of it.
http://benjaminmcevoy.com/7-lessons-learned-mans-search-mean...
[+] [-] theoh|8 years ago|reply
Telling people that they must learn to bear their suffering, rather than receive substantial support from (a possibly reorganized) system, is, of course, a very inexpensive form of wellbeing intervention.
[+] [-] knrz|8 years ago|reply
In the past, there was no guard against disease. If it came, you were done for. There were some limited options available when it came to medicine, but by and large, if you got a disease, that was it. It was out of your hands, and even if you wanted to, you couldn't do anything.
In the present, there are a lot of solutions that can be solved with enough access to capital. It's possible now, not impossible as it was prior, to cure yourself of certain ailments, if only you live in the right place, have the right amount of money (or social security), etc. To a certain degree, living in a particular place and access to capital can be a matter of personal choice. A lot of the time, not enough to get you the treatment you need, but enough to give you the sense of having some measure of control.
Having a measure of control but being powerless is new to modern life.
That's what I think, at least. What does HN think?
---
Industrial Society and it's Future really hit home for me a month ago when I first came across it. I feel you.
[+] [-] watwut|8 years ago|reply
How do we know they were stoic? How do we know they were not stressed or frustrated?
[+] [-] dominotw|8 years ago|reply
Sure you can come up with various philosophies like stoicism, Buddhism ect but you are merely trading one loop of seeking for another. Now you are stuck in a 'non-seeking' loop and failure to achieve 'non-seeking'.
[+] [-] baursak|8 years ago|reply
If you're into essays, check this one out: http://julesboykoff.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Boykoff_L...
[+] [-] skrebbel|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blowski|8 years ago|reply
Of course, YMMV. Please take this as a random anecdote, not as evangelism.
[+] [-] mikeokner|8 years ago|reply
The obvious solution is to own your decisions and start doing what you think is right for you, but it's far easier said than done to step out from under the expectations you've been saddled with your entire life.
[+] [-] Bartweiss|8 years ago|reply
Certainly a six-figure salary is not necessary for happiness, but if you find yourself working long hours to make rent in some midwestern town it's going to cut into your opportunities for self-discovery and joy. And if you got wise a bit too late, after picking up federal student loans, you might well find that your dream career is genuinely off the table. (Found your true calling as a firefighter? Better keep up on those loans or you'll lose your license.)
It seems like we've created a system where the straight-and-narrow is increasingly narrow, and the cliffs around it are increasingly high. It's still worth finding one's own path, but in both social and purely-practical terms it's gotten steadily harder.
[+] [-] Jhsto|8 years ago|reply
I understand its natural for students to pep talk their peers to study more, but I don't understand why controversial suggestions are being dismissed. I almost feel like these calls for help are just seeking validation to continue hoop jumping instead of actually finding alternative ways to fix the root cause. It makes me sad to think that my peers don't think they are ready for working life until they graduate, whilst I would, as an employer, much rather hire someone capable of self-inspection and listening of people with differentiating viewpoints.
[+] [-] zcdziura|8 years ago|reply
As I'm not a parent, I have no idea how the modern child is raised or how the modern parent is "expected" to raise their kid, but I get the feeling that, on the whole, creativity and exploration aren't encouraged in young children; rather their lives revolve around structured activities where the agenda is decided ahead of time for them. That's a great way to keep kids busy, but I'm not sure if or how it develops their brains and senses of independence... But I have no actual proof of that claim, just anecdotal evidence from seeing my aunt and grandparents raise my younger cousins.
[+] [-] bfrydl|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] konart|8 years ago|reply
Lucky ones. Here in Russia you are expected to have university diploma by 21-22, otherwise you are close to being treated as subhuman, lol.
As a result - huge paint for many people, depreciation of higher education etc.
[+] [-] RandomInteger4|8 years ago|reply
Living one rung lower on Maslow's hierarchy makes you forget about the desire to be around people, or even leave the house (father's) all that often (2% of the time).
Granted, I think maybe my concern for my health (irrational or not) has been exacerbated, so I've traded loneliness for frequent panic attacks concerning whether or not I might have cancer or a heart defect. On the plus side, I know for a fact that I've torn back muscles weight lifting, so all I really need is the medicaid office to get back to me after submitting my 4th application with no phone calls or emails as to my status.
[+] [-] estebancastano|8 years ago|reply
"A social app, like Tinder but for hangouts with friends.
See what your friends want to do, and swipe right to show you’re interested. You can also join hangouts in the global feed to instantly expand your social circle. Hangouts are capped at 10 people so you can actually get to know each other. Post things you want to do, like "Hike in John Muir". When 10 people swipe right, a chat opens up so you can coordinate when to meet & who is down to go."
[+] [-] naeem|8 years ago|reply
Also, slightly ironic/depressing to react to an article about systemic loneliness in the tech age with "maybe we can make an app for that".
[+] [-] brango|8 years ago|reply
The trouble with an app like this is that if it works and people become friends they'll probably just switch to the lowest common denominator/free platform, e.g. facebook/whatsapp to coordinate, so monetisation could be tricky. I.e. if your app is 100% efficient, people may use it once then not return.
You also have the added challenge of seeding this "two-sided" marketplace (people suggesting activities and those saying they'll attend) in every locality you want to operate in, so you'll need a compelling growth strategy. It also sinks or swims on people actually turn up for events.
Good luck - I do think Meetup sucks and could be far better, but I think you'd need a lucky break/very interesting twist to really gain traction.
[+] [-] dominotw|8 years ago|reply
My solution is to scale this to everyone, A housing colony with community kitchen and hangout areas. More like a less intense urban co-op. This is probably also a solution to healtcare crisis in america, healthy food + social belonging == well being.
[+] [-] paublyrne|8 years ago|reply
Ultimately, though, getting yourself to an event with other people is only part of the problem, you still need to be able to connect with the people you meet, introduce yourself, have a conversation, bond.
If you really want to create an app to tackle social isolation, maybe you could look at something that helps people improve their social skills instead, a sort of online tutor. There are definitely a lot of tricks to be learned to thrive in social situations, and while some people seem innately more equipped, I believe almost everyone can learn them to some degree.
[+] [-] rorykoehler|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] laurieg|8 years ago|reply
Where I live (Japan) living alone is the new norm. After I moved out of university dorms I've lived in little shoebox apartments with my own little kitchen, my own little bathroom and no need to cross paths with any of the other 100 people in my building at all. I see that a lot of the new apartment blocks around my city are full of small, single-occupancy apartments too.
There are no communal spaces. There are no chance encounters. People seem to feel like there is too much risk in meeting new people, let alone dining with them.
There have been some shared houses popping up here and there. But they are viewed as as exceptional and unconventional. Social interaction has become a peculiar character trait rather than a normal part of life.
[+] [-] sevenfive|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jsemrau|8 years ago|reply
Interestingly just a couple of day I wrote about the topic of loneliness in the modern age at my medium [2]
[1] http://www.idrop.in
[2] https://medium.com/@thisTenqyuLife/life-after-facebook-is-re...
[+] [-] Brad811|8 years ago|reply
I'm not sure if it has any value, but it was an attempt to lower the barrier of entry to hanging out with people, and at least it's a fun challenge to work on!
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] dominotw|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] battlebooth|8 years ago|reply
features needed to be successful: --STack overflow/HN/Reddit style Rep or magical internet points: These things are important, look how compelling they are for people to go out of their way to do things.... If you can tap into this so people go out of their way... to leave their house and socialize. even if its superficial for internet points, its helping adn putting them in the right direction.
--badges, via Audible App/Duolingo App, and other big sites that have probably spent big $$$$ coming to the conclusion that these things increase engagement. Have badges for 'hung out with same person in same meetup event 6 times in a row...(having social interactions with the same people over and over again builds better connections.) also: hung out with a newb (low reputation) and a (insert great noun here warlock/mage (gender neutral)/pilot etcc.) basically a veteran socializer in same group.(sub point... people can get different avatar badges i dunno anything to make it optionally fun/kooky not so serious, adds a great common talking point when players (social players) get together in a meetup.
--these things can also be refactored to mimic Riot games 'League of Legends' game, a free to play game, that is the #1 esports game in the world, with more viewers than NBA finals. They use 'riot points' as a way to make $ so players can customize / stylize/express uniqueness in game with skins on base models... anyways point being that there oculd be points like this which allow people to 'enhance a meetup' so anyone attending gets a bunch of rep, or gets a hat, or gets a badge etc etc... maybe it costs the person activating it 10$, but its totally worth it for them cause the nerdy players coming are psyched for the __Free__ magical internet points or magical virtual hat or whatever. Also you can tie it into businesses and volunteer organizations in your local town. Like, meetup at foodbank berlin, foodbank Newyork, southside to volunteer and get XXXX extra points, or increase your volunteer badge etc.. heck put in a talent-tree a la duolingo/diablo for volunteering advancment haha (this step would require late stage company growht with lots of emplyees / communtiy mgrs and operations to avoid corruption and loopholes in this system)
At the end of each meetup have an optional form players can fill out ascribing strange nouns or adjectives to other players (green rooted dandelion, extreme fluff shark, ported slime swamp) a la heroku/gfycat slug style. They wont ever know, the exact attributions they receive but every 6 months some strange algorithm takes the inputs and generates a strange pokemon style creature or item and gives it to them.
then fractal-idea-spiral off this and include them in meetup invites with other players who have been given randomly given similar creatures. so then the commonality in that unique meetup is the strange-ass reward they receive in this game.
also see Yelp, and how they have community events, could probably snipe some ideas from that to increase peoples local engagement in this. Or, plug into yelps api and have food based events where people meetup based on local deals restaurants are having. then have sub games inside the meetup like who can take the best photo of a drink shrine, where everyone stacks their drinks/cans of sodas in an intricate pattern, or who can make the best fries shrine or some weird art construction thing like that. they are all passed into a NN-imageclassifier you have running that tries to accurately match em to ancient temple shrines as well as pictures of fries etc...make up some function to give each picture a score. whatever the challenge is. This is crazy dumb, but thats the point its some kooky dumb thing they are doing together and its fun its social. also great press cause it will generate weird headlines.
There would be lots of features/game modes in this app, the food one above being an example. so like LeagueOfLegends, make some of them unlockable (2-5$), but have them on 'rotation' so they are always playable eventualyl throughout say, 2-3 months, also players can eventually unlock em wihtout paying, by using the points they accumulated.
[+] [-] unabst|8 years ago|reply
"You're on your own" is good when reaping rewards and thriving in a meritocracy, but not when you need help, are losing, or just want warmth.
But a healthy dose of loneliness is what has us reaching for each other.
So we should all just give in, and reach for each other.
Natural feeling tend to take care of themselves, so long as we're capable of being honest.
Of course, that's the other issue.
[+] [-] 50|8 years ago|reply
Then again, I have this vague thought that many people suffer from loneliness (depression, etc) because of how we are raised, how society, culture, civilization, have molded our minds. I think in modern day, consciousness is everything. But because it’s an unknowable object, we ignore it or worse: pretend it doesn’t exist. Consequently, we end up hard-headed in a matrix of half-baked beliefs, lonely, depressed, fearful, and anxious. I don’t know, the whole social order I think is set up in order to avoid the unknowable, if you will, of what everything is. The idea that the radio is blaring at all times. That we are all taught to listen to channels but never taught to turn it off and listen to the silence. If only we were to listen we would see that from the unknowable arises a reflection; the consciousness of everything, the I-am. At this point, I think, sort of in the poverty of true humility, everything that appears is seen as a miracle. The birds chirping in the morning is as much of a miracle as being in the perfect spot in the knowable universe for life to exist. The question then arises: Why is it that we remain deaf/blind running around anxiously in the noise when pure consciousness is right here out in the open all the time?
Above all: I think loneliness may be combated through several forms: reading really good fiction, doing drugs (weed in particular), having passionate sex, or any form of escapism. I find that the latter are only temporary ways to combat loneliness. If we would like to conquer loneliness, making a home of yourself and reflecting on what truly is is really important.
[+] [-] ForRealsies|8 years ago|reply
“The higher degree of responsibility that you agree voluntarily to try to bear the richer your life will be.” -Jordan Peterson
[+] [-] ensiferum|8 years ago|reply
;-)
[+] [-] partycoder|8 years ago|reply
10,000 years ago, you would live in a tribe. If you were not popular among your tribe, it is likely you would be either exiled and forced to live in solitude and die during winter or be constantly subject to violence.
2,000 years ago, you would live only to work in a farm or be in a state of perpetual war. To make things worse, literacy rate was something around 0.001%, if you were lucky.
1,000 years ago, you would be essentially doing the same while dying from a plague. There was no sanitation of any kind.
200 years ago, you would be working at a factory and going to war every 30 years.
100 years ago, there was no radio or TV, so you still had stuff like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot
About 60 years ago women were predominantly housewives and were vulnerable to all sorts of abuse.
So no, right now things are better.
[+] [-] wu-ikkyu|8 years ago|reply
"Success is as dangerous as failure. Hope is as hollow as fear.
What does it mean that success is as dangerous as failure? Whether you go up the ladder or down it, Your position is shaky. When you stand with your two feet on the ground, You will always keep your balance.
What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear? Hope and fear are both phantoms That arise from thinking of the self. When we don't see the self as self, What do we have to fear?
See the world as your self. Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self; Then you can care for all things."
-Lao Tzu
[+] [-] gerbilly|8 years ago|reply
Humans need face to face contact to be fully happy.
Why, as supposedly modern humans, do we have to rediscover this?
[+] [-] sigsergv|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] martin_andrino|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cousin_it|8 years ago|reply
Thankfully, solving this problem doesn't require changing all of society. You can solve it for yourself: take a few years to notice and unlearn your habits for pushing away other people. I'm confident that you have many such habits right now, from the way you stare at your phone in public, to your posture and facial expressions every minute of the day.
To give you a picture of the end result, imagine a stereotypical immigrant from a more collectivist culture. Their reputation for openness isn't undeserved.
[+] [-] solarkraft|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] gumby|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thriftwy|8 years ago|reply
If I was lonely I think I'll go somewhere where board games are played and there find an unlimited company.
[+] [-] joshsyn|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] peterburkimsher|8 years ago|reply
When something bad happens to someone you care about, don't say "What happened?" That focuses on the problem. Maybe they don't want to talk about it.
Ask "Are you OK?"
You can always say this even if there's nothing wrong.
If they say "Yes, why?", they're your friend.
If they say "Fine." then they don't trust you.
If they tell you "No, ..." they think you're a close friend.
Then ask "What can I do to help you? You're not alone."
Focus on the solution.
If you want to know if someone trusts you, just ask "Are you OK?" and they will tell you.