This always blows my mind. You’re married to someone, and you aren’t interested enough in the person to know anything about what they do with nearly 40-50% of their time, aside from their job title?
This is underappreciated. I had a girlfriend who was an accountant. At the end of the day, she'd want to vent about work, and guess what? I couldn't follow her without asking some questions about accounting. Suddenly, I was interested in accounting, because I wanted to understand why she was annoyed or stressed or happy or relieved when she got home from work, and I didn't want to just nod and say "uh huh, uh huh" while she was talking about something that was an important part of her life. Now I don't give two shits about accounting.
If that's unusual, sign me up for an unusual woman.
The thought process that programming requires is tiresome and tedious to my wife. The fact that her eyes glaze over when I talk about the details of my day does not mean that she doesn't care about what programming means to me in the greater human sense.
One of the reasons I married her is precisely because she is so different from me, and the fact that I must describe things to her as a layperson actually improves my communication skills greatly. I would never dream of being offended that she does not want to put forth the effort to grasp the gritty details of what I do.
There is a difference between boring someone with what you do, and talking about what you did that day. It can be a fine line, but there is always a way to explain in layman terms what you do.
Do you not talk to your wife about what she does during the day?
Reading this just makes me think it should be laughably simple to date another gay male (mostly PHP) programmer[1]. We'd automatically share interests! But WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU GUYS?!
Happily engaged to a proud history/biology geek: I chat about the difference between static and dynamic typing, and get a brief history of the French revolution or an explanation of plant cell growth in return (it's a lot more fun to learn history over a few beers and accompanied by plenty of swearing and enthusiastic gesturing ;) )
Do you get that glazed, faraway look in your eye when you partner starts talking about a programming problem, or the newest testing framework? There’s no need to be bored. Ask questions, try to understand! When I meet women today, I don’t avoid talking about the work that I do, my love for pc gaming, or my fascination with D&D and other such geekery. Often I’ll get a response along these lines: “Programming? My husband does something like that I think.” To which I always inquire, “Oh really? What language does he work with?” Their response is always the same: “Language? huh. I have no idea. There’s more than one? I don’t really know what he does. I don’t pay attention to that stuff.”
This always blows my mind. You’re married to someone, and you aren’t interested enough in the person to know anything about what they do with nearly 40-50% of their time, aside from their job title? ...
(click the link above to continue, I don't want to repost the entire text)
Proggit has a wonderful comment for this story. For those of you who don't go there often, here it is:
Back in my early 20's, when I was just out of university and doing any old contract job that came around, I happened to be working on a particularly complex project that involved a heavy amount of annoyingly complex javascript (before the days of jQuery). I ended up burning myself out trying to hit an impending deadline. I collapsed into bed in the middle of the day.
A little while later, my (then) girlfriend (now wife) came into the bedroom to ask if everything was ok and, waking up in a stupor and not really being conscious about what I was saying, I mumbled that it was all going wrong and I was hoping she would help me (she's not a programmer and wouldn't know where to start). I woke up a few hours later to find her stressing over one of my javascript reference books and looking at me with sad eyes, saying she didn't make much progress, because it was all a bit confusing.
My girlfriend is actually the one with the CS background, not me--I'm a mathematician. She's working in Computer Vision right now, and I have a passing knowledge of the algorithms she uses, like SVMs.
More importantly, I am now an adoring fan of doom metal, and have a greater appreciation for 18th century European literature and philosophy. I'm not sure I'll ever match her encyclopedic knowledge of obscure metal sub-genres (electro-Tolkien thrash metal?) but bands like Anathema and Ulver now dominate my last.fm account, and I have a finer appreciation for non-English-language films.
Conversely, she just finished Half-Life 2: Episode 2. I'm so proud of her! I also taught her to cook, which brings me more joy than I can put in words.
Before I met her, I had heard a hundred and one photography terms, but never knew or cared about exposures and apertures and such. Listening to her talk about it is a great experience, because I love to hear her explain to an idiot like me what a low f-stop is. I feel like I'm genuinely learning.
I also know that a photographer has never taken enough pictures. She can take 500 pictures on a trip to the grocery store and then go home and pick through and find the ones she likes.
I'm a very self-conscious person and hate the way I look in pictures, but in the past two years I've probably appeared in hundreds upon hundreds of photographs. I've learned not to look when she starts pointing the camera, because she wants to capture what's going on and not a designed picture. Whenever I have a camera in my hands I try to actively apply the things she's taught me about photography. All in all, I'd like to think I'm not photographer, but I take great interest in what she does.
My girlfriend plays roller derby and she absolutely loves it. I've not only learned what a blocker, pivot and jammer are, but all about the different permutations of wheels, bearings, and skates which are used to get every last bit of speed and maneuverability out of her skating. (And I've helped her learn to take them apart and put them back together!) She's only been involved in the league since January, but she's already hugely involved and helping to plan their events. It's been a huge thing for her, especially since she's only a year into living here and was flailing for something to do outside work.
But this is not just a hobby, this is their life's work. Could you image if someone said their husband was "a doctor, or something like that..." and if you asked what they specialized in (surgeon, orthopedics, etc) you would have no idea? It's not about knowing HOW they do their job, it's about knowing WHAT they do.
Anyways, my husband is a programmer and so am I so we don't have this problem, but another problem entirely...
My GF is an artist who uses old masters' techniques to paint modern themes, like dead flowers and the washroom at an LA shipyard. So I know a bit about how they mixed paints, even to the point of grinding pigments myself. And color and composition and glazes and and and. I work 250 miles from home, so every evening we talk about painting. (And occasional rants about her dealings with the telecommunications infrastructure. :-)
EDIT: Her work is absolutely stunning and I am very proud of her.
My wife is a music teacher. I can comfortably discuss the contributions of people like Carl Orff and Émile Jaques-Dalcroze to modern music education theory. While I have never played an instrument in my life, I can hold my own in a graduate level music theory discussion (I know more about theory than any of my 'casual' musician friends).
My wife, on the other hand, is far more likely to place Django in the context of an early 20th century Gypsy Jazz guitar player than a 21st century web framework...
My wife is an attorney. I enjoy listening to the problems she faces in her cases. It is interesting to help her think of innovative solutions. It's a little like hacking code once you abstract away all the legal terms and focus on the concepts.
Happened to my wife and I during her citizenship interviews. Brief panic. Mumbling - eventually she came out with, "he does something with computers". Good enough for the INS
Well I'm supporting that cliche too. When I was a kid I took over the spare bedroom with LEGO trains and cities. I spent hours obsessively building, sort of how I write code now. Just hearing her one mention of LEGO made me want to get the blocks out and play.
It's the other way around, some kids just build the thing on the box and play with it as it is, and some kids build, tear down, build something else, tear it down, etc.
The latter group is more likely to become some sort of engineer, but I would guess it's a personality trait that expresses itself through Lego in an early age.
No, not really - that's not what cliche means. A cliche is an idea that's presented so much that its originality is lost. Lots of people saying they became interested in programming because of a simple programming language designed to teach kids means it was a success.
Wife with remarkably similar interests to husband takes interest in his passions, story at 11.
Hrm. Not that I disagree, but it is abundantly clear that this husband and wife combo are very similar people. At least on her end.
If she is suggesting that she learned Ruby and started writing a blog because she wanted to know her husband better I'm calling BS. She did these things because she herself is interested in them.
If I am to be cynical: She shares her husband's interests, that much is clear, but is the experience mutual, and if not is she in any position to critique others?
He was a trooper.
This is what you say when you know someone is participating in an activity simply because they know you enjoy it, not so much because they are avid hikers (or rubyists) themselves.
None of that bothers me. In fact it seems to be - at least on her part - the key to enjoying life with another person.
What bothers me is that she openly mocks women that don't seem to have an passion for all the things their husbands do. It ignores that there (should be) a whole lot more to a person that a single passion. It ignores that many of those particular things may be what is shared. Most importantly it ignores the fact that she actually isn't doing what she claims to be doing at all.
There is no reason why any particular passion should be elevated to a level that it cannot be "excluded" from an important relationship, provided there are shared experiences in other areas.
To suggest otherwise says more about the person with the passion than the one forced to accept it, really.
My wife has no real interest in programming, but is learning about it through conversations because she cares about me, and therefore cares about what I do. If I were to suddenly die or otherwise leave her life, she wouldn't continue any connection with programming.
I have no real interest in embroidery or painting, but I am learning about it as I talk with her about her loves and interests. If for some reason I were to lose her, embroidery and painting would cease to be part of my life.
I don't see the original author mocking anyone, I see her deploring the fact that so many people don't take a genuine interest in what their life partner does, and which is sometimes their passion.
I see the original author suggesting that a genuine effort to understand one's partner's interest will enrich both lives.
I've heard that Churchill once said: "If over dinner you find yourself seated next to a manufacturer of glass eyes, take the opportunity to learn about it - you will probably never get the chance again."
I've not been able to track down the definitive source, but I don't care - I believe the sentiment to be true, and by following that precept my life is much richer than it once was.
When I met Adam, we had very few similar interests. I was a political science and philosophy major. Very social, nature-loving, etc. He was programming, hacking phone lines and owning at video games from a young age. When Adam introduced himself, my computer at the time was a Packard Bell 486 and I remember asking Adam if he could put Windows 98 on it so I could try to play a couple video games with him. He laughed at me, and simply said, "Nope, that's not going to work." :) I was never in the D&D or computer nerd crowd growing up. My small town Maine school was focused strictly on athletics. The most I had used a computer was to send aim messages to my HS boyfriend while he was at college. My own geekery really only started because I took the time to listen to Adam and pay attention to what he was doing. I was able to see how much fun he was having with his hobbies, and I wanted to be a part of that. My interests grew over time, but I'm quite sure that I wouldn't know a thing about programming, or the Ruby ecosystem today if I didn't make an effort to be engaged in his personal interests, even though they were so foreign to me at the time.
Anyone who says "Programming? My husband does something like that I think." deserves, if not mockery, then something more like pity.
Passion isn't necessary, but why bother being in a close relationship with another person if you're not even going to learn what it is that they spend their time working on?
She doesn't say that couples have to have the same passions. She says that you should at least know something about what your partner does, beyond just their job title.
I got married in 1997 the same year I started working on local number portability. Local number portability is the system that allows people to keep their phone number and change their carrier. Wire line local number portability happened first and then wireless number portability went live in November 2003. I had been working in this area for about six years.
About a week before the system went live. I'm on site and in a meeting. We were covering all the test results and launch plan details. I get a call from my wife. I figured it was important because she knew I was on-site. I take the call. she says, "Guess what I just heard. You are going to be able to change cell phone companies and keep your number! Isn't that cool?" "Um, Hun what do you think I've been working on for the last six years?"
I'm a computer geek and met my future wife at college. She also "lived directly across the hall from me". She thinks programming is cool and enjoyed the programming course she took in college. She became a teacher for a while and I thought that was cool and joined her (at the same school) for three years. So I totally agree with this blog article. Be interested in what your significant other is doing; it's better that way.
"Is it dangerous to draw a correlation between high divorce rates and the lack of interest that people have in their partners lives?"
Perhaps not, but "in their lives" need not mean "in every aspect of their lives". I think it's great for anyone, in a relationship with a programmer, or not, to learn about programming. But simple observation tells me that a relationship does not rely on the s.o.'s ability to talk learnedly about Perl v. Python v. Ruby.
She mainly mentions Ruby. Which, more so than other languages, actually does seem to be much more than just a language to the developers who use it. Knowing her husband loves Ruby to her also speaks to his programming philosophy, community involvement, etc.
My question is: how many geeks work only in one language or write to only one platform?
Some of us do a lot more than I think you can reasonably expect a non-industry spouse to follow with any technical depth.
It's like expecting a prolific musician's wife to identify all the instruments her spouse plays and have some understanding of why he chooses one over another for a given piece, just because you could reasonably expect a blues guitarist's wife to know that her husband plays predominantly blues guitar.
This is a good read! Ran into something today where I used the same i variable for two nested for loops, and told my gf about how it was frustrating but simple once found. It was wonderful to hear she actually understood, having taken some basic college (web) programming courses. That kind of simple understanding really can make your day, and reinforce the relationship.
Is it me or am I reading too much into "Finding out that he also played guitar sealed the deal. " My first thought was this comic: http://www.explosm.net/comics/897/
My wife is like that for a specific reason. While I do a lot of coding and development, it's not really my main interest. My main interest is making awesome interactive experiences.
Programming is my hammer. I know how to use it, but I prefer talking about what I do with the hammer. In turn, my wife knows about what you can do on my latest web project, and has no clue about coding.
Might be a slightly different context than the article, but I wanted to point out that there is a difference in the technical aspect of somebody's work and what "they do".
This article is of particular interest to me. I spend a good deal of my time as a young single guy immersed in technology and hacker culture. However, when I'm around women or trying to meet women, I instinctively will only discuss generalities as in "I write web applications" and leave it at that unless they are adamant about finding out more, which very rarely occurs.
I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing but at the end of the day it does feel kind of bad to feel the need to push a pretty big part of your personality off into the corner because a majority of the women you'll meet don't care and will get annoyed if they have to hear about it. Nothing feels worse than telling a story and watching your audience dart their eyes, grow bored and try to think of ways to feign interest.
I'd say something like "Last week I build a website where you can do x and y. Somebody just did z on it and it was so cool because of...". Frame it in practical real-world terms and present it as an exciting, high-tech thing you're doing.
Ironically, if you work at large corporation you quite often just can't talk about what exactly you are doing. The amount of secrecy at some companies is worse than at terrible, however enjoyable, TV series "The Unit".
[+] [-] dkarl|15 years ago|reply
This is underappreciated. I had a girlfriend who was an accountant. At the end of the day, she'd want to vent about work, and guess what? I couldn't follow her without asking some questions about accounting. Suddenly, I was interested in accounting, because I wanted to understand why she was annoyed or stressed or happy or relieved when she got home from work, and I didn't want to just nod and say "uh huh, uh huh" while she was talking about something that was an important part of her life. Now I don't give two shits about accounting.
If that's unusual, sign me up for an unusual woman.
[+] [-] dasil003|15 years ago|reply
One of the reasons I married her is precisely because she is so different from me, and the fact that I must describe things to her as a layperson actually improves my communication skills greatly. I would never dream of being offended that she does not want to put forth the effort to grasp the gritty details of what I do.
That said, she does know what Ruby on Rails is :)
[+] [-] megablast|15 years ago|reply
Do you not talk to your wife about what she does during the day?
[+] [-] seldo|15 years ago|reply
[1] see http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1927#c...
[+] [-] davidw|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] henrikschroder|15 years ago|reply
I really hated myself the morning after, so I can't recommend it for the curious.
[+] [-] camtarn|15 years ago|reply
Happily engaged to a proud history/biology geek: I chat about the difference between static and dynamic typing, and get a brief history of the French revolution or an explanation of plant cell growth in return (it's a lot more fun to learn history over a few beers and accompanied by plenty of swearing and enthusiastic gesturing ;) )
[+] [-] theturtle32|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GrandMasterBirt|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dpritchett|15 years ago|reply
Do you get that glazed, faraway look in your eye when you partner starts talking about a programming problem, or the newest testing framework? There’s no need to be bored. Ask questions, try to understand! When I meet women today, I don’t avoid talking about the work that I do, my love for pc gaming, or my fascination with D&D and other such geekery. Often I’ll get a response along these lines: “Programming? My husband does something like that I think.” To which I always inquire, “Oh really? What language does he work with?” Their response is always the same: “Language? huh. I have no idea. There’s more than one? I don’t really know what he does. I don’t pay attention to that stuff.” This always blows my mind. You’re married to someone, and you aren’t interested enough in the person to know anything about what they do with nearly 40-50% of their time, aside from their job title? ...
(click the link above to continue, I don't want to repost the entire text)
[+] [-] Jun8|15 years ago|reply
Back in my early 20's, when I was just out of university and doing any old contract job that came around, I happened to be working on a particularly complex project that involved a heavy amount of annoyingly complex javascript (before the days of jQuery). I ended up burning myself out trying to hit an impending deadline. I collapsed into bed in the middle of the day.
A little while later, my (then) girlfriend (now wife) came into the bedroom to ask if everything was ok and, waking up in a stupor and not really being conscious about what I was saying, I mumbled that it was all going wrong and I was hoping she would help me (she's not a programmer and wouldn't know where to start). I woke up a few hours later to find her stressing over one of my javascript reference books and looking at me with sad eyes, saying she didn't make much progress, because it was all a bit confusing.
[+] [-] emeryc|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] raquo|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lmkg|15 years ago|reply
More importantly, I am now an adoring fan of doom metal, and have a greater appreciation for 18th century European literature and philosophy. I'm not sure I'll ever match her encyclopedic knowledge of obscure metal sub-genres (electro-Tolkien thrash metal?) but bands like Anathema and Ulver now dominate my last.fm account, and I have a finer appreciation for non-English-language films.
Conversely, she just finished Half-Life 2: Episode 2. I'm so proud of her! I also taught her to cook, which brings me more joy than I can put in words.
[+] [-] Hovertruck|15 years ago|reply
Before I met her, I had heard a hundred and one photography terms, but never knew or cared about exposures and apertures and such. Listening to her talk about it is a great experience, because I love to hear her explain to an idiot like me what a low f-stop is. I feel like I'm genuinely learning.
I also know that a photographer has never taken enough pictures. She can take 500 pictures on a trip to the grocery store and then go home and pick through and find the ones she likes.
I'm a very self-conscious person and hate the way I look in pictures, but in the past two years I've probably appeared in hundreds upon hundreds of photographs. I've learned not to look when she starts pointing the camera, because she wants to capture what's going on and not a designed picture. Whenever I have a camera in my hands I try to actively apply the things she's taught me about photography. All in all, I'd like to think I'm not photographer, but I take great interest in what she does.
[+] [-] ajdecon|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AmberShah|15 years ago|reply
Anyways, my husband is a programmer and so am I so we don't have this problem, but another problem entirely...
[+] [-] russell|15 years ago|reply
EDIT: Her work is absolutely stunning and I am very proud of her.
[+] [-] JshWright|15 years ago|reply
My wife, on the other hand, is far more likely to place Django in the context of an early 20th century Gypsy Jazz guitar player than a 21st century web framework...
[+] [-] GiraffeNecktie|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] krisneuharth|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mbubb|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dennisgorelik|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tlrobinson|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] quantumhobbit|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] henrikschroder|15 years ago|reply
The latter group is more likely to become some sort of engineer, but I would guess it's a personality trait that expresses itself through Lego in an early age.
[+] [-] scott_s|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] run4yourlives|15 years ago|reply
Hrm. Not that I disagree, but it is abundantly clear that this husband and wife combo are very similar people. At least on her end.
If she is suggesting that she learned Ruby and started writing a blog because she wanted to know her husband better I'm calling BS. She did these things because she herself is interested in them.
If I am to be cynical: She shares her husband's interests, that much is clear, but is the experience mutual, and if not is she in any position to critique others?
He was a trooper.
This is what you say when you know someone is participating in an activity simply because they know you enjoy it, not so much because they are avid hikers (or rubyists) themselves.
None of that bothers me. In fact it seems to be - at least on her part - the key to enjoying life with another person.
What bothers me is that she openly mocks women that don't seem to have an passion for all the things their husbands do. It ignores that there (should be) a whole lot more to a person that a single passion. It ignores that many of those particular things may be what is shared. Most importantly it ignores the fact that she actually isn't doing what she claims to be doing at all.
There is no reason why any particular passion should be elevated to a level that it cannot be "excluded" from an important relationship, provided there are shared experiences in other areas.
To suggest otherwise says more about the person with the passion than the one forced to accept it, really.
[+] [-] RiderOfGiraffes|15 years ago|reply
My wife has no real interest in programming, but is learning about it through conversations because she cares about me, and therefore cares about what I do. If I were to suddenly die or otherwise leave her life, she wouldn't continue any connection with programming.
I have no real interest in embroidery or painting, but I am learning about it as I talk with her about her loves and interests. If for some reason I were to lose her, embroidery and painting would cease to be part of my life.
I don't see the original author mocking anyone, I see her deploring the fact that so many people don't take a genuine interest in what their life partner does, and which is sometimes their passion.
I see the original author suggesting that a genuine effort to understand one's partner's interest will enrich both lives.
I've heard that Churchill once said: "If over dinner you find yourself seated next to a manufacturer of glass eyes, take the opportunity to learn about it - you will probably never get the chance again."
I've not been able to track down the definitive source, but I don't care - I believe the sentiment to be true, and by following that precept my life is much richer than it once was.
[+] [-] renaebair|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abstractbill|15 years ago|reply
Passion isn't necessary, but why bother being in a close relationship with another person if you're not even going to learn what it is that they spend their time working on?
[+] [-] kscaldef|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] CRASCH|15 years ago|reply
I got married in 1997 the same year I started working on local number portability. Local number portability is the system that allows people to keep their phone number and change their carrier. Wire line local number portability happened first and then wireless number portability went live in November 2003. I had been working in this area for about six years.
About a week before the system went live. I'm on site and in a meeting. We were covering all the test results and launch plan details. I get a call from my wife. I figured it was important because she knew I was on-site. I take the call. she says, "Guess what I just heard. You are going to be able to change cell phone companies and keep your number! Isn't that cool?" "Um, Hun what do you think I've been working on for the last six years?"
[+] [-] techiferous|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] balding_n_tired|15 years ago|reply
Perhaps not, but "in their lives" need not mean "in every aspect of their lives". I think it's great for anyone, in a relationship with a programmer, or not, to learn about programming. But simple observation tells me that a relationship does not rely on the s.o.'s ability to talk learnedly about Perl v. Python v. Ruby.
[+] [-] sigstoat|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] powrtoch|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] roc|15 years ago|reply
Some of us do a lot more than I think you can reasonably expect a non-industry spouse to follow with any technical depth.
It's like expecting a prolific musician's wife to identify all the instruments her spouse plays and have some understanding of why he chooses one over another for a given piece, just because you could reasonably expect a blues guitarist's wife to know that her husband plays predominantly blues guitar.
[+] [-] cherring|15 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Charuru|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joelhaasnoot|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elptacek|15 years ago|reply
It happens.
[+] [-] Mgccl|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GBKS|15 years ago|reply
Programming is my hammer. I know how to use it, but I prefer talking about what I do with the hammer. In turn, my wife knows about what you can do on my latest web project, and has no clue about coding.
Might be a slightly different context than the article, but I wanted to point out that there is a difference in the technical aspect of somebody's work and what "they do".
[+] [-] mxavier|15 years ago|reply
I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing but at the end of the day it does feel kind of bad to feel the need to push a pretty big part of your personality off into the corner because a majority of the women you'll meet don't care and will get annoyed if they have to hear about it. Nothing feels worse than telling a story and watching your audience dart their eyes, grow bored and try to think of ways to feign interest.
[+] [-] GBKS|15 years ago|reply
Don't give facts, tell a story.
[+] [-] rue|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rlachenal|15 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vl|15 years ago|reply