I'm a woman that's worked in tech since 2011... at times the discrimination and treatment I've faced has made me want to quit the industry all together. But every time I reached that point I thought - no, I'm not the one who should have to leave, it's the people -- usually men -- who have not shown empathy, kindness or compassion. The ones who have bullied me and harassed me and made inappropriate comments or advances. So many of these experiences I just buried inside until I was in the company of other people I trusted and felt safe to share. There hasn't really been an online forum where I felt safe to have these conversations until now. Now that Leap is here I have other people who get me who I can talk to about the stuff that is bugging me. With their help I can treat each day as new and keep moving forward with my career. If you don't understand why this community is important perhaps it's because you have had the privilege of never feeling like a second class citizen in the industry you work in.
I expect this to be a controversial comment. I might just be overreacting.
If you identify as a woman and are interested in joining Leap,
please sign up for our beta here.
I'm a trans woman who works in tech. I think it's dangerous to open a
community for women to people who "identify as women". For one thing, there
are plenty of women who do not "identify as women". For instance, older women
may not really know what "identifying" is all about and just think "well, I'm
a woman, what's to identify with?". There are also younger women who reject
the idea that gender is an identity that you can choose at will.
Obviously the invitation is meant to show that trans women are welcome.
That's... moving, but I think it will only cause trouble. First you create a
place especially for women, which is needed because like the announcement
says, many women don't feel welcome, comfortable or even safe in online
discussions that tend to escalate to shouting matches, typically among men
(since it's the women leaving). Then you invite in to the community people who
have been socialised as men, have grown up as men, have spent most of their
professional lives as men and who have often contributed to exactly the kind
of working environment that makes womens' lives difficult as tech workers.
That's defeating the whole point of a "community where the core culture [will
be] set by women".
I'm not trying to say that trans women are not women (I mean, duh; I'm one. Of
both). But it should be kept in mind that most of us carry a great deal of
baggage from the time we lived as men. Baggage that's very hard to get rid of
and that many of us are not even aware of. In light of this, I think this
big-hearted invitation to everyone who identifies as a woman, should be
revised to something more cautious. I'd think, if someone "identifies as a
woman" and works in technology, they'd respond to an invitation to just
"women" anyway.
To be perfectly clear, I'm totally not joining and I invite any other trans
women who read this to think very carefully before doing so. Just think of all
the times you had a civilised and polite debate with other trans women about
trans stuff, or about anything.
I've been a member of Leap for many months now, and I have been amazed by the incredible displays of women helping women in this online community. I've become personal friends with a handful of women that I've met through Leap, and wish that Leap existed years ago when I first entered (and felt lost navigating) the tech scene. Thanks for creating this, @cbcowans. It is already a huge success.
I have seen research that women who go to all female colleges tend to do better career-wise. So I don't think the idea of a female enclave as a means to inoculate women against problematic social norms is without merit.
If you have never done this before, let me suggest that if you like the culture it currently has, you need to be really leery of making significant changes, such as deciding you will welcome men at some point after starting out as exclusively female.
I have been a member of predominantly female groups. If there is a single man in them, they fail to be some kind of female empowerment zone. He will have the largest influence any time he posts and he will be backed by vicious female allies who will have a huge problem with any woman standing up to him. It is bizarre stuff.
The one group I briefly belonged to that was initially exclusively female due to happenstance promptly crashed and burned when the first man joined. After ugly stuff went down, the list basically died. It was eventually disbanded, even though he quickly left because of the drama. The group never recovered from the debacle.
Single-sex schools is generally perceived to give better results in grades and careers, with research to back it up. They are also perceived to give worse citizens in term of empathy and understanding.
This theory is notoriously used by the military in many nations. By strengthening the in-group feeling you gain several traits such as increased confidence and feeling of belonging, and you increase tensions against the out-group which during a war is perceived as useful.
Benefits and drawbacks, one which many nations has gone with banning the practice of single sex education. I don't disagree with it and I find the science behind it to be rather robust.
What problem is this intended to solve that isn't solved by moderation policies and forum culture? I ask because I think this is a cool project, but there is also the inescapable fact that at some point men and women will have to work together in engineering environments, and we still have a dearth of environments that foster those interactions.
I think this is an interesting question! The problem is clearly that Cadran “started building Leap because I didn’t have a place on the internet where I felt comfortable talking openly.”
Must a site or community have a bigger problem at its outset? My gut feeling is that the answer is no, that communities become their own thing, and that they can support and enrich themselves in unique ways.
> ...there is also the inescapable fact that at some point men and women will have to work together in engineering environments, and we still have a dearth of environments that foster those interactions.
I don't believe that something like Leap is counterproductive here, but, lacking a suitable algebra of online communities, that's another gut feeling. The Hacker News community is very interested in fostering those interactions, for example.
>What problem is this intended to solve that isn't solved by moderation policies and forum culture?
I think this comment thread is a pretty good illustration of the problem. A group of women are saying, "hey, we think this is a beneficial project, for this reason and this other reason," and a bunch of men are saying "WRONG it's pretty much white supremacy except against men." Forums reflect their membership -- in an industry dominated by men, discussions will be slanted away from positions held by women unless compensatory measures are taken.
1. I thought gender-based discrimination was illegal. How is Leap not illegal?
2. One of the main objections of "gentleman's clubs" was that their (male) members had access to important networking contacts, putting women in unequal foot in an unfair way when it came to businesses. Wouldn't Leap be unfair in the same way?
I've definitely noticed a dynamic at play in male-dominated soft eng spaces online that silences women. It has to do with men's behaviour and shitty comments in those spaces. Not all men, of course, but enough men - and almost exclusively men. It's why I'm no longer on r/programming. I'm tired of having to put up with that and I'm glad you created this space.
(not for me, so I'm not sure how much I could respond to questions)
Is Leap for people who are i) female, ii) identify as a woman, or iii) both?
I ask because I have a few friends who are biologically female, but genderqueer (by which they mean that they don't prescribe to the cultural stuff that is usually attached to gender). Would this be suitable for them?
As a more general note, since this looks to be a community that's about inclusion and addressing discrimination, it might be worth taking care not to conflate "female" and "woman".
I'm XY and won't be able to contribute to the community, which I have no problem with. However, I do like to read fruitful conversation (via hackernews, reddit, online comment platforms, etc.). I suppose readership would also be private and limited to women? I definitely understand why that'd be the case, but it does seem to make it more difficult for me to get a balanced perspective from platforms that are majority men.
Hi Cadran! I'm a male identified person, and I think Leap's a great idea. A couple questions:
1) If someone put you on the spot and asked you to pigeonhole Leap, would you say it's intended to be a Hacker News for women?
2) Has there been any discussion of a observer/lurker status for men?
3) Do participants primarily shift their time spent on other (open?) tech/social forums towards Leap, or do they increase their total amount of time spent on forums to make space for it?
Overall I feel that this is a good idea. When it comes to harassment, people tend to keep it quiet for various reasons, among them fear and embarrassment. While things have changed for the better recently, any venue that helps people speak up about their experience is a good thing.
Of course like everything else, there are trade offs, especially when this community is female only... While as a male I was aware of the existence of gender discrimination and harassment, I did not realize how ignorant I was of the subject and how terrible the situation was, until I read Susan Fowler's account at Uber. It was a paradigm change for me. How will Leap mitigate from potentially becoming a closed echo chamber? i.e. will this limit needed but hard discussions between the sexes? How does Leap prevent that?
What would happen if a man lied to gain access to the community, became a respected member of the community, and was eventually discovered to be a man? Would that person be banned from the forum?
What’s the current queue look like, how long does it take for someone to get invited? How does moderation go on, what if a discourse gets way off track? There’s no perfect community, but I have high hopes here.
I have a question you might answer: Given the disparity in different races being able to participate, will any special consideration be given to people of color in this group?
On one hand, I think that it will provide a valuable resource for a large group of people, which is good! On the other hand, an online tech community designed solely for men would be met with hate and massive backlash.
If equality is our goal, how will self-segregation help meet that goal?
We all need a safe space to come in from the cold. When you feel vulnerable, you want to communicate with friendly, like-minded people. However, you'll find more noise within an echo chamber and that jerks exist regardless of gender.
This sort of gender-specific walled garden is nothing new and I suppose will always attract a certain stereotype. Here's an old Anthony Lewis post from 1994 that may sober folks on the idea: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/14/opinion/abroad-at-home-tim...
"I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member" --Groucho Marx
>Michael Godwin of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a public-interest law firm, made the same point -- if slightly less elegantly -- about the Santa Rosa case. People who objected to the computer message, he said, "should have called the guy who posted the message a jerk."
Call an obnoxious speaker a jerk: what a useful formula, what an intelligent way to get the resentment off your chest without starting down the legal road to suppression of speech. It would have worked well, for example, in the notorious case of Prof. J. Donald Silva of the University of New Hampshire.
I find this section to be a disturbing summation of the author's attitude on the subject. And, the Groucho Marx quote has no bearing on any of this; it's self-deprecation.
Is there a difference between a community for Women vs a community for anybody who wants a civil community?
From the discussion, I gather that women like 'women only' communities primarily because there are no "ill behaved", threatening men that turn away women.
Is there a place for a community for civilized human beings where everyone is included regardless of their gender identity?
I think gender specific communities creates a mono culture and punishes men who are civilized and know how to behave around other gender(s).
The real issue to address is to keep out the unruly crowd - regardless of gender.
I don't use Facebook, but I entered my LinkedIn and Github URLs globbed together. Really hoping for some leeway on this verification method. I would be happy to wait until other methods are created but can't say I was not disappointed.
I've been part of some online tech communities for women, but I found they were too US-centric and it was difficult for me to obtain value from it, hoping Leap will be different
This segregation stuff does not make sense to me, it almost feels like prison rules - keep genders/races away from each other because if they interact it will probably be violent.
I wondered what would happen if I created a community where the core culture was set by women, and the software and product decisions were also made by women
-> This also seems strange to me and counterproductive. If we build a society where any interaction happens without confrontations against the people that may be causing the issues, in this case "men", then how are we to make progress? Do men and women think differently about the merits of different software technologies or not?
Even when members have opposing views, they’ve given each other the benefit of the doubt and continue to talk productively.
-> Are you implying that men are incapable of this? Or that an environment where men and women interact is incapable of achieving this? Seems regressive...
[+] [-] turinapple|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] konogasa|8 years ago|reply
Obviously the invitation is meant to show that trans women are welcome. That's... moving, but I think it will only cause trouble. First you create a place especially for women, which is needed because like the announcement says, many women don't feel welcome, comfortable or even safe in online discussions that tend to escalate to shouting matches, typically among men (since it's the women leaving). Then you invite in to the community people who have been socialised as men, have grown up as men, have spent most of their professional lives as men and who have often contributed to exactly the kind of working environment that makes womens' lives difficult as tech workers. That's defeating the whole point of a "community where the core culture [will be] set by women".
I'm not trying to say that trans women are not women (I mean, duh; I'm one. Of both). But it should be kept in mind that most of us carry a great deal of baggage from the time we lived as men. Baggage that's very hard to get rid of and that many of us are not even aware of. In light of this, I think this big-hearted invitation to everyone who identifies as a woman, should be revised to something more cautious. I'd think, if someone "identifies as a woman" and works in technology, they'd respond to an invitation to just "women" anyway.
To be perfectly clear, I'm totally not joining and I invite any other trans women who read this to think very carefully before doing so. Just think of all the times you had a civilised and polite debate with other trans women about trans stuff, or about anything.
[+] [-] lynnetye|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DoreenMichele|8 years ago|reply
If you have never done this before, let me suggest that if you like the culture it currently has, you need to be really leery of making significant changes, such as deciding you will welcome men at some point after starting out as exclusively female.
I have been a member of predominantly female groups. If there is a single man in them, they fail to be some kind of female empowerment zone. He will have the largest influence any time he posts and he will be backed by vicious female allies who will have a huge problem with any woman standing up to him. It is bizarre stuff.
The one group I briefly belonged to that was initially exclusively female due to happenstance promptly crashed and burned when the first man joined. After ugly stuff went down, the list basically died. It was eventually disbanded, even though he quickly left because of the drama. The group never recovered from the debacle.
[+] [-] Iepoiel|8 years ago|reply
This theory is notoriously used by the military in many nations. By strengthening the in-group feeling you gain several traits such as increased confidence and feeling of belonging, and you increase tensions against the out-group which during a war is perceived as useful.
Benefits and drawbacks, one which many nations has gone with banning the practice of single sex education. I don't disagree with it and I find the science behind it to be rather robust.
[+] [-] ChiliConKanye|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cirgue|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sctb|8 years ago|reply
Must a site or community have a bigger problem at its outset? My gut feeling is that the answer is no, that communities become their own thing, and that they can support and enrich themselves in unique ways.
> ...there is also the inescapable fact that at some point men and women will have to work together in engineering environments, and we still have a dearth of environments that foster those interactions.
I don't believe that something like Leap is counterproductive here, but, lacking a suitable algebra of online communities, that's another gut feeling. The Hacker News community is very interested in fostering those interactions, for example.
[+] [-] RangerScience|8 years ago|reply
Is there anything preventing you from going out and making it?
[+] [-] bloaf|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ravenstine|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] rev_bird|8 years ago|reply
I think this comment thread is a pretty good illustration of the problem. A group of women are saying, "hey, we think this is a beneficial project, for this reason and this other reason," and a bunch of men are saying "WRONG it's pretty much white supremacy except against men." Forums reflect their membership -- in an industry dominated by men, discussions will be slanted away from positions held by women unless compensatory measures are taken.
[+] [-] cbcowans|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] probably_wrong|8 years ago|reply
1. I thought gender-based discrimination was illegal. How is Leap not illegal?
2. One of the main objections of "gentleman's clubs" was that their (male) members had access to important networking contacts, putting women in unequal foot in an unfair way when it came to businesses. Wouldn't Leap be unfair in the same way?
[+] [-] fruzz|8 years ago|reply
I've definitely noticed a dynamic at play in male-dominated soft eng spaces online that silences women. It has to do with men's behaviour and shitty comments in those spaces. Not all men, of course, but enough men - and almost exclusively men. It's why I'm no longer on r/programming. I'm tired of having to put up with that and I'm glad you created this space.
I look forward to checking it out.
[+] [-] kdelok|8 years ago|reply
Is Leap for people who are i) female, ii) identify as a woman, or iii) both?
I ask because I have a few friends who are biologically female, but genderqueer (by which they mean that they don't prescribe to the cultural stuff that is usually attached to gender). Would this be suitable for them?
As a more general note, since this looks to be a community that's about inclusion and addressing discrimination, it might be worth taking care not to conflate "female" and "woman".
[+] [-] byproxy|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seany|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scarmig|8 years ago|reply
1) If someone put you on the spot and asked you to pigeonhole Leap, would you say it's intended to be a Hacker News for women?
2) Has there been any discussion of a observer/lurker status for men?
3) Do participants primarily shift their time spent on other (open?) tech/social forums towards Leap, or do they increase their total amount of time spent on forums to make space for it?
[+] [-] tbv|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chaostheory|8 years ago|reply
Of course like everything else, there are trade offs, especially when this community is female only... While as a male I was aware of the existence of gender discrimination and harassment, I did not realize how ignorant I was of the subject and how terrible the situation was, until I read Susan Fowler's account at Uber. It was a paradigm change for me. How will Leap mitigate from potentially becoming a closed echo chamber? i.e. will this limit needed but hard discussions between the sexes? How does Leap prevent that?
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] gravypod|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sukhadatkeereo|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aiiane|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] purefunction|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Operyl|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] msla|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheAdamAndChe|8 years ago|reply
On one hand, I think that it will provide a valuable resource for a large group of people, which is good! On the other hand, an online tech community designed solely for men would be met with hate and massive backlash.
If equality is our goal, how will self-segregation help meet that goal?
[+] [-] booleandilemma|8 years ago|reply
Are transgender females allowed?
[+] [-] Sephr|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RangerScience|8 years ago|reply
Do you have anything you're doing that you find particularly interesting, beyond the self-selection?
[+] [-] adfm|8 years ago|reply
This sort of gender-specific walled garden is nothing new and I suppose will always attract a certain stereotype. Here's an old Anthony Lewis post from 1994 that may sober folks on the idea: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/14/opinion/abroad-at-home-tim...
"I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member" --Groucho Marx
[+] [-] grasshopperpurp|8 years ago|reply
Call an obnoxious speaker a jerk: what a useful formula, what an intelligent way to get the resentment off your chest without starting down the legal road to suppression of speech. It would have worked well, for example, in the notorious case of Prof. J. Donald Silva of the University of New Hampshire.
I find this section to be a disturbing summation of the author's attitude on the subject. And, the Groucho Marx quote has no bearing on any of this; it's self-deprecation.
[+] [-] th1nkdifferent|8 years ago|reply
Is there a difference between a community for Women vs a community for anybody who wants a civil community?
From the discussion, I gather that women like 'women only' communities primarily because there are no "ill behaved", threatening men that turn away women.
Is there a place for a community for civilized human beings where everyone is included regardless of their gender identity?
I think gender specific communities creates a mono culture and punishes men who are civilized and know how to behave around other gender(s).
The real issue to address is to keep out the unruly crowd - regardless of gender.
[+] [-] ianwalter|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] keyboardhitter|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] erinbk|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] etiene|8 years ago|reply
I've been part of some online tech communities for women, but I found they were too US-centric and it was difficult for me to obtain value from it, hoping Leap will be different
[+] [-] cbcowans|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] allergeek|8 years ago|reply
https://leap.ycombinator.com
[+] [-] egamirorrim|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dominotw|8 years ago|reply
I am interested in finding a mentor and a supportive community. Is there a forum like this for general public.
[+] [-] Anticapitalist|8 years ago|reply
Facebook groups, linked-in groups and subreddits for any discipline already exist and are waiting for you to join them.
[+] [-] bigbluedots|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DelaneyM|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] bischofs|8 years ago|reply
This segregation stuff does not make sense to me, it almost feels like prison rules - keep genders/races away from each other because if they interact it will probably be violent.
I wondered what would happen if I created a community where the core culture was set by women, and the software and product decisions were also made by women
-> This also seems strange to me and counterproductive. If we build a society where any interaction happens without confrontations against the people that may be causing the issues, in this case "men", then how are we to make progress? Do men and women think differently about the merits of different software technologies or not?
Even when members have opposing views, they’ve given each other the benefit of the doubt and continue to talk productively.
-> Are you implying that men are incapable of this? Or that an environment where men and women interact is incapable of achieving this? Seems regressive...