People who don't like to work often misunderstand this when looking at the stories of successful people. They think successful people force themselves to work hard in order to be successful. In fact successful people often like their work so much that there's nothing else they'd rather do. I doubt for example that there's anything Jeff Bezos would rather do than run Amazon. I bet it seems to him the way a gigantic Lego creation seems to a 7 year old.
Exactly. My father told me a story of when he was stuck in traffic with somebody who was then about the 10th richest person in the world. To make conversation, my father asked him what his plans for the coming year were. The guy listed all sorts of business goals. My father asked if he had anything personally that he was planning. The guy basically replied that those were his personal plans. He made no distinction between work and play.
you're lucky to have a life where you get to do that. but do you have subordinates?
people with a lot of autonomy are harmed less by long hours and stress. i mean quite literally, if everybody is working 70-100 hours under intense pressure, the boss will experience fewer mental and physical health problems.
keep this in mind if there are people lower on the pyramid than you. what you yourself are willing to do might be quite harmful to them, not to mention the reward they get might be far less.
Of course, the problem is that people in this position tend to assign high moral virtue to what is essentially their hobby, and then tend to make the jump to thinking that people who are not willing to work 70 hours a week are somehow unworthy of rich, comfortable lives.
Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk can work all the 70 hour weeks they want. The problem is when they begin to force their subordinates (or indirect support personnel like the poor accounting schmuck in the article) to do the same.
The article isn’t talking about Jeff Bezos, but the associate at the law/consulting/banking firm staying up all night papering up the Whole Foods merger.
The question in the title is purely rhetorical, the FA itself is making a deeper point that if you yourself choose to go nuts, it's a bit unwise to expect everyone else around/underneath you to do the same.
Same, people always ask me why I do this to myself but I don't see it just as a job, more like part of my life and I kind of enjoy it and can't do without, albeit I must admit I am a workaholic and not everything out of this is positive.
“Insecure overachievers are exceptionally capable and fiercely ambitious, yet driven by a profound sense of their own inadequacy. This typically stems from childhood, and may result from various factors, such as experience of financial or physical deprivation, or a belief that their parents’ love was contingent upon their behaving and performing well.”
For those whom look for meaning or self-worth in work your efforts are seriously misguided. It’s very easy to make oneself busy so that you never have unscheduled quiet time to examine your inner demons. The perpetuation of the overworking culture is hurting us as a country at large. Do you really want to live in a country where people have no hobbies and have little free time to play and simply be?
I run a successful business and we work 4 nine hour days, Friday’s are almost always off and we start everyone with 25 days vacation. You can do that at your org too! Try it for a year and you’ll find that your turnover will drop, people will be more engaged with their work, more creative ideas will emerge from your work force ,morale will improve and people will be knocking down your door to work for you. Give your employees and yourself plenty of time for a life outside of work and you’ll reap the benefits.
You can have meaning or you can have happiness. You cannot have both -- at least not all of the time. This conflict can be seen clearly in a movie like "Office Space", where both the male and female leads are working for happiness (and survival) whereas the work environment expects them to be working for meaning. (How many pieces of flair are you wearing?)
The trick to this discussion is that people on one side of the discussion frankly don't understand folks on the other side. The things they say and do don't make any sense. If you're a meaning person, you read the title of this essay -- "If You’re So Successful, Why Are You Still Working 70 Hours a Week?" and think if you're successful, why wouldn't you be working 70 hours a week? You're doing what you love, making a difference in the world! It's only those that are unsuccessful, those who work for meaning but aren't very effective, that would spend a lot of time doing nothing.
For both camps, it seems the world is full of people from the other camp, basically ruining things for the rest of us. It would be great if we could convey this critical piece of information to people early on in life. So much time and energy is spent in conflicts with other folks where it's not needed.
"People with careers need to learn to shut the fuck up around people with jobs. Don't let your happiness make somebody sad. [...] When you got a career, there ain't enough time. When you got a job, there's too much time." -- Chris Rock
I used to work 60 hours a week because I absolutely loved what I did. It gave me meaning. Then I had a son and it fell to 40... Then 30... Then I quit. Now I'm home with him and absolutely love what I'm doing. I still feel successful nurturing a little human. It gives me more meaning than my job ever did. Financially I need to work again, but I doubt it will ever be the nexus of my day.
This comment really baffles me, particularly the Office Space reference. Generally I see that movie invoked specifically to reference the meaninglessness of most white-collar work. TPS reports and pieces of flair are supposed to be absurd examples of things that employers to do dehumanize and control employees - the opposite of meaningful goals.
I think most people want meaningful (purposeful?) lives. Some find that almost exclusively through their work, some through their nonprofessional activities, some through their families. Most are probably a mixture. I think people often find happiness through figuring out what's important to them and organizing their life around that.
I think there is more nuance to meaning and happiness. The process of attaining meaning, in my view, is torturous. Think of any field - sports, theater. I don't think any athlete or sportsperson would call the process of attaining meaning a happy process. It's no fun to wake up at 5 in bone chilling cold for a workout. There's definitely some element of happiness driving this process. From what I can postulate, it's the end result or the chain of end results that brings about meaning and happiness. Somehow I can't disintegrate the two.
It's perfectly ok to not find that meaning and happiness at work, but find it somewhere else. Otherwise, like Warren Buffett says you'll just sleep walk through life.
I think there is a dichotomy, but I don't think it's meaning vs happiness. Rather, it might be people who find meaning in what they do for a living, vs finding meaning in what they do outside of work. The key, I think, is identity; your answer to the question: "what are you?"
Happiness is a more complex question, I'd refer people to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I'd add that happiness is usually fleeting, contentment and engagement with life is more achievable.
I don't understand why meaning and happiness are mutually exclusive. For me, I rarely can have one without another. do
Also importantly, overworking yourself does not lead to happiness and only to illusion of meaning. Long term 70 hours a week schedules are not about effictivity or happiness. Even if you absolutely love that job.
For the most of my career, I was certain that there was something wrong with me. After the first few months at a new job, a sense of meaninglessness grew in me. Is this it? Am I really babysitting this ASP.Net app from here on out? I tried to find meaning in my work but always came up short. Cue a miserable year followed by a job hunt. Rinse and repeat every 2-4 years.
After 12 years of this, it suddendly struck me - I don’t like working. I don’t hate it, not at all - I enjoy coding and fixing bugs. However I fail to see any deeper meaning in the work I do. So last month, I quit, started my own consultancy and sell my skills and time to the highest bidder, max 6 hours per day. Couldn’t be happier! I really feel more like a plumber or electrician than a coder and for the first time in my career I don’t feel anxious about doing something meaningful, because I’ve redefined what “meaning” is.
Thanks. As someone who struggles mightily with the same, I’ve always thought that path is one I should follow, but I’m not great at networking / hustling for the next contract, which you kind of have to do, right?
The article profiles people in a bunch of professional firms, but ignores the changing market for those professionals. An ABA study showed that in 1965, a typical billable hour target for a lawyer was 1200-1600. Today, 2000 hours is a typical target. That can’t be explained by culture. Law has always drawn “insecure overachievers.” In reality, it’s due to the changing marketplace. Decades ago, it would be highly unusual for Philadelphia company to retain a DC firm for a matter. Today, it’s routine—your competition is nationwide. Golfing with local business people doesn’t cut it for business development anymore. And like other industries, the work has shifted to larger players in big markets (NYC/Chicago/SF/DC).
External competition also breeds internal competition. I used to work at a firm in New York. There was no competition in the partnership, by design: everyone was paid in a lock step fashion strictly by seniority. Business development meant checking your messages when you got back from lunch. Partnership was for life and partners never left. That was typical 30-40 years ago. Today it’s very much the exception, a model retained by a handful of firms that have major institutional relationships. The typical model today is “eat what you kill.” Partners are compensated based on how much business they bring in, and regularly hop from firm to firm depending on who is offering the best pay package.
Of course all this isn’t necessarily bad. Increased competition means more work, more hours, more availability. But where there is a lack of competition, that’s often a sign of people being kept down. Back in 1965, many firms didn’t hire Jews, Asians, African Americans, women, etc. Business was given out over drinks instead of having competing firms pitch for it in a transparent way. All of those things increase competition and decrease the value of “good old boy” networks.
I wonder if organisations are getting the benefits they perceive, I suppose if you bill by the hour you are but I know from personal experience nothing kills my creativity like overwork.
I'm technically a successful professional, but I'd certainly love to work less than 70 hours weeks. I don't have a choice, we're understaffed. It's been shown in black and white to management who is betting a sale will bring those people in. The scam comes into play when we realize we're salary. I used to look at salary as something to achieve, flexible work schedule where I could put in the work and go home when I was done. Now the work is never done. I enjoy what I'm doing, and I'm good at it, but the drive to push everyone in the tech industry into burnout is a cancer that's carving the industry out.
I couldn't think of anything I could do for the number of hours that I work that wouldn't send me insane. Travelling, hanging out with friends, partying, sports, random interests - not that I don't like them a bit, but I would lose it after just a few weeks.
My parents probably had this. "life is short" dominated anyone who lived through the great depression, and WWII and I think it influenced their sense that purposeful activity was better than other choices, what was work and what was pleasure blended, because you had a sense it was better to make things happen, than let entropy rule.
I had this as an engaging drive until 15-20 years ago when I somehow lost my work ethic, in a dark corner and I've looked for it fitfully since, but if I am honest, not very hard. I appreciate that its better to build, and leave something behind, but I am less driven to do this 24/7.
I have to work almost all the time. My day typically begins at 3am and ends around 7pm. The reason for this is that my own projects and goals are often contingent on the successful completion of projects by other teams, and organizationally we tend to hire C workers at best. So I spend a lot of time pushing other people and other teams. It doesn’t make me popular but it does make me effective.
It's great to see an article about this. I think it's clear that as automation replaces a lot of jobs we're all going to work less (finally) and find meaning, purpose and happiness in other ways.
Certainly some people really love their work, and that's fantastic. Other people would rather work less, and that's great too.
The number of hours people work is not important. What is important is whether they freely choose to work that amount of hours or not. There are poor people who work a lot more than 70 hours a week (2 to 3 different jobs). But that is not something they choose to do.
Also, measuring success in money earned is misguided. Success is personal. Success is achieving what gives meaning/fulfilment to you independently of what gives meaning/fulfilment to others.
Working 70 hrs a week is a signal to me that one is not competent. Computers work for me, not the other way around. As for the people with "bullshit jobs" I assume they do it because of imposter syndrome. The only other category I can think of is doctors, doing it because there's literally no one else who can save a life. That's a management/credentialism issue.
montrose|8 years ago
People who don't like to work often misunderstand this when looking at the stories of successful people. They think successful people force themselves to work hard in order to be successful. In fact successful people often like their work so much that there's nothing else they'd rather do. I doubt for example that there's anything Jeff Bezos would rather do than run Amazon. I bet it seems to him the way a gigantic Lego creation seems to a 7 year old.
ProxCoques|8 years ago
currymj|8 years ago
people with a lot of autonomy are harmed less by long hours and stress. i mean quite literally, if everybody is working 70-100 hours under intense pressure, the boss will experience fewer mental and physical health problems.
keep this in mind if there are people lower on the pyramid than you. what you yourself are willing to do might be quite harmful to them, not to mention the reward they get might be far less.
blackbagboys|8 years ago
Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk can work all the 70 hour weeks they want. The problem is when they begin to force their subordinates (or indirect support personnel like the poor accounting schmuck in the article) to do the same.
rayiner|8 years ago
twelve40|8 years ago
NiklasMort|8 years ago
FlyingSideKick|8 years ago
For those whom look for meaning or self-worth in work your efforts are seriously misguided. It’s very easy to make oneself busy so that you never have unscheduled quiet time to examine your inner demons. The perpetuation of the overworking culture is hurting us as a country at large. Do you really want to live in a country where people have no hobbies and have little free time to play and simply be?
I run a successful business and we work 4 nine hour days, Friday’s are almost always off and we start everyone with 25 days vacation. You can do that at your org too! Try it for a year and you’ll find that your turnover will drop, people will be more engaged with their work, more creative ideas will emerge from your work force ,morale will improve and people will be knocking down your door to work for you. Give your employees and yourself plenty of time for a life outside of work and you’ll reap the benefits.
87ert3746|8 years ago
DanielBMarkham|8 years ago
The trick to this discussion is that people on one side of the discussion frankly don't understand folks on the other side. The things they say and do don't make any sense. If you're a meaning person, you read the title of this essay -- "If You’re So Successful, Why Are You Still Working 70 Hours a Week?" and think if you're successful, why wouldn't you be working 70 hours a week? You're doing what you love, making a difference in the world! It's only those that are unsuccessful, those who work for meaning but aren't very effective, that would spend a lot of time doing nothing.
For both camps, it seems the world is full of people from the other camp, basically ruining things for the rest of us. It would be great if we could convey this critical piece of information to people early on in life. So much time and energy is spent in conflicts with other folks where it's not needed.
hnzix|8 years ago
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnlNUZqFzgY
Waterluvian|8 years ago
ssfrr|8 years ago
I think most people want meaningful (purposeful?) lives. Some find that almost exclusively through their work, some through their nonprofessional activities, some through their families. Most are probably a mixture. I think people often find happiness through figuring out what's important to them and organizing their life around that.
deepGem|8 years ago
It's perfectly ok to not find that meaning and happiness at work, but find it somewhere else. Otherwise, like Warren Buffett says you'll just sleep walk through life.
StavrosK|8 years ago
barrkel|8 years ago
Happiness is a more complex question, I'd refer people to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I'd add that happiness is usually fleeting, contentment and engagement with life is more achievable.
watwut|8 years ago
Also importantly, overworking yourself does not lead to happiness and only to illusion of meaning. Long term 70 hours a week schedules are not about effictivity or happiness. Even if you absolutely love that job.
fastbeef|8 years ago
After 12 years of this, it suddendly struck me - I don’t like working. I don’t hate it, not at all - I enjoy coding and fixing bugs. However I fail to see any deeper meaning in the work I do. So last month, I quit, started my own consultancy and sell my skills and time to the highest bidder, max 6 hours per day. Couldn’t be happier! I really feel more like a plumber or electrician than a coder and for the first time in my career I don’t feel anxious about doing something meaningful, because I’ve redefined what “meaning” is.
indemnity|8 years ago
rayiner|8 years ago
External competition also breeds internal competition. I used to work at a firm in New York. There was no competition in the partnership, by design: everyone was paid in a lock step fashion strictly by seniority. Business development meant checking your messages when you got back from lunch. Partnership was for life and partners never left. That was typical 30-40 years ago. Today it’s very much the exception, a model retained by a handful of firms that have major institutional relationships. The typical model today is “eat what you kill.” Partners are compensated based on how much business they bring in, and regularly hop from firm to firm depending on who is offering the best pay package.
Of course all this isn’t necessarily bad. Increased competition means more work, more hours, more availability. But where there is a lack of competition, that’s often a sign of people being kept down. Back in 1965, many firms didn’t hire Jews, Asians, African Americans, women, etc. Business was given out over drinks instead of having competing firms pitch for it in a transparent way. All of those things increase competition and decrease the value of “good old boy” networks.
tonyedgecombe|8 years ago
saas_co_de|8 years ago
Perhaps our culture defines "success" in a way that can only be achieved by working 70 hours a week.
Also, where is the law that says devoting time to idle leisure is superior to working?
sjg007|8 years ago
cannonedhamster|8 years ago
dadawoowoo|8 years ago
mmilano|8 years ago
aplummer|8 years ago
I couldn't think of anything I could do for the number of hours that I work that wouldn't send me insane. Travelling, hanging out with friends, partying, sports, random interests - not that I don't like them a bit, but I would lose it after just a few weeks.
skartik|8 years ago
ggm|8 years ago
I had this as an engaging drive until 15-20 years ago when I somehow lost my work ethic, in a dark corner and I've looked for it fitfully since, but if I am honest, not very hard. I appreciate that its better to build, and leave something behind, but I am less driven to do this 24/7.
Bombthecat|8 years ago
Regrets, regrets... Regrets.
nso95|8 years ago
zrb05292|8 years ago
sgt101|8 years ago
grecy|8 years ago
Certainly some people really love their work, and that's fantastic. Other people would rather work less, and that's great too.
mbrodersen|8 years ago
mbrodersen|8 years ago
anotheryou|8 years ago
danjoc|8 years ago
lulmerchant|8 years ago
EddieSpeaks|8 years ago
[deleted]
bobsman123|8 years ago
[deleted]