Good. These are some of the worst paying jobs in the country.. because they have used migrants to solve their labor problem, removing the need for them to compete for workers.
They need to raise their wages, pay what it really costs for labor.
And as a bonus, the increased costs will provide an incentive for future automation.
I don't entirely disagree but I also suspect that many Americans would be shocked by the cost of food if workers were paid higher wages (especially if it was done for everyone who touches your food as it travels from the farm to the table) and that most farmers would prefer a phased approach to reform so that crops aren't rotting in the fields.
I agree with this from a perspective that we've depressed the industry for so long with artificially low rates. This has exacerbated the problem and now we have a much more expensive problem than what we would have had. (We've also have been suffering the consequences culturally, economically, and on a QOL basis of this. [There are people that should have been getting skilled in this.. but we don't have the time and experience from doing that])
That being said, due to the currency leveraging, many central American economies, cultures, and peoples have suffered from the illegal immigration as well.
Exactly. If the Koreans and Japanese can farm their farms and feed their pops. despite tight labor markets, depop of rural areas and expensive labor, we can do it too.
In addition, higher prices might make us less wasteful. What is it, 30% of food ends up in the rubbish bin?
I'm wondering if higher wages would end up happening in practice. It's entirely possible that if labor costs go up here, it will make produce farmed elsewhere (Mexico, Central America, even overseas) more price competitive. I think trade is more likely to occur before automation. Harvesting many things is quite difficult from a robotics standpoint, every fruit/vegetable is slightly different and requires rather fine grained feedback systems to ensure you don't bruise the thing. Not impossible, but not easy/cheap.
It's also hard to recruit workers to a gig that's temporary and seasonal. That can maybe be made up for in wages though.
I'm also curious about where the labor is required. Corn/wheat is mostly a machine based harvest, I assume there are few migrant workers there but I don't know. Is there analysis on where migrants end up on the value chain of farm products?
Also, while there's some talk of undocumented immigrants, I think there's also a legal seasonal-labor system in the US. Trump famously uses it to staff Mar-a-lago. How many migrant farm workers are under that system?
A portion of those migrants will start a farm back home and start exporting it back. This will just drive up exports and do nothing to increase wages.
Depending on another country for food puts more risk on national security.
For what it's worth, migrant harvest workers have always followed the harvest, in North American moving from north to south in the fall as the frost line moves southward with the season. "Migrant worker" often implies "foreign national", but not necessarily.
It's an inconvenient truth of the scaled up agriculture that produces food for us city folk.
Many European countries have formal guest-worker programs. A big consequence of the EU is easier guest-worker access and better working conditions.
The reason the USA immigration hassle never gets solved by congresscritters is this: it's convenient economically to have an underclass of workers with few rights and no recourse for mistreatment. Congresscritters have to say they're TRYING to solve the problem or they appear to be amoral. But they can't actually solve the problem without antagonizing the 1% who pay their re-election campaign bills. So the issue is a perennial theme of chin music. Both major US parties do this.
As painful as the current political environment is, some of these informal patronage relationships may be upset by Trump's inability to be cool about anything except his own industry (real estate). He'll happily throw the farming industry under the bus if it means a tax break for real estate investors and a few political points for being tough on "illegals".
Automation can fix this moving forward but ultimately the lost crops are a result of a bad business decision by the farmers to rely on an an undocumented underpaid labor force without thinking there would ever be any repercussions.
> ultimately the lost crops are a result of a bad business decision by the farmers to rely on an an undocumented underpaid labor force without thinking there would ever be any repercussions.
Possibly, but it may also depend on how much the current political climate could have been foreseen. The reality is that it's been the status quo for decades, and there's been clemency for illegal immigrants that grants citizenship in the past.
Ultimately while it ended up being a bad decision, it might have been one that was considered an extremely safe one until everything changed. Sort of like buying a car with the assumption you'll still have a job next year. If you needed a car then it might have been good decision until all of a sudden it really wasn't.
How are you as a farmer going to be competitive when your fellow farmers are getting much cheaper labor?
This is an area for regulation (no one raised an eye when they got cheap labor) and economic incentives (NAFTA f'd over Central American economies, commodities market manipulation causes prices to skyrocket in developing markets - both causing mass migrations).
In two recent conversations I was told that the coyete[1] rates are $10,000 from El Salvador and $8,000 from Mexico. The Mexican fellow told me he wouldn't return to the US not only because the rates were high too but the smugglers now seem more menacing. The fellow used to perform home construction in the Bay Area. Incidentally, a recent report in the area cited labor shortages as the #2 road block in the SF builder industry.
The US administration seems to believe that our economic growth was cash constrained, hence the massive corporate tax cut. But for many industries growth is labor constrained.
[1] Colloquial phrase for Central American human traffickers.
> The US administration seems to believe that our economic growth was cash constrained
I'm not going to point fingers at anyone, but corporate cash levels were already hitting records before the tax cuts passed and money was already available at record-low interest rates. Anyone who thought our companies were cash-constrained was intentionally not paying attention.
Reminds of what happened in Alabama. Vice did a documentary on it. It was definitely eye opening. The only thing that scares me for this type of labor is the sheer amount of automation being done in farming.( They have these crazy lettuce cutting machines as well as sorting machines.)
>Alabama’s Failed Anti-Immigration Law
The state's experiment in "self-deportation" reveals what might happen if the US sent 11 million undocumented workers home.
> Vice did a documentary on it. It was definitely eye opening.
Come on. Vice documentaries are entertainment at best. I've enjoyed a couple of them myself but I would never use them to prop up my political arguments.
If you’re wondering what would happen if farm worker wages were raised, this article in The NY Times from 2011 might shed some light:
”For a typical household, a 40 percent increase in farm labor costs translates into a 3.6 percent increase in retail prices. If farm wages rose 40 percent, and this wage increase were passed on to consumers, average spending on fresh fruits and vegetables would rise about $15 a year, the cost of two movie tickets. However, for a typical seasonal farm worker, a 40 percent wage increase could raise earnings from $10,000 for 1,000 hours of work to $14,000 — lifting the wage above the federal poverty line.”
EU. People from Turkey, Greece, and other less-industrialized parts of the EU work as migrant harvest workers (and in other laborer jobs) in the more industrialzied parts. The northern EU countries have organized guest-worker programs.
America produces twice than it consumes. Will the farms suffer perhaps, will Americans starve? no. Should the farms adapt, Yes!
Hey I am not going to feel bad, that McDonald does not have a Dollar Menu any more. May be the market forces are the right medicine for the "obesity" problems America is facing.
There may not be a shortage but people would buy less of that produce, prices would go up to cover the higher wages. Unless you subsidize aggressively. Tricky market since people need food to survive.
I personally do not care. Selecting migrants based of their value for the agriculture industry is about the worst thing a nation can do itself. Let's hope that constraints breed creativity and industry invests in automation. I think the government should do more to support farmer automation... especially when it's been proven to be effective like for dairy.
(I come from a family of farmers... going up my family tree there are been nothing but farmers)
Since the job doesn't require any specialization (which could take years to master and thus might cause a shortage), it should be easy to fill such positions from the large unemployment pool if employers started paying more to compensate for the missing Mexicans.
But it's only a shortage of people willing to do the work at shitty prices.
Almost the same thing happened in UK after Brexit. The atmosphere was so poisonous against them, that the EE workers did not return in the normal amount, so that all farms that rely on them for cheap picking are suffering.
If only there were some sort of market mechanism that would incentivize legal US citizens to perform these jobs, in order to spare these suffering crops.
I think the problem in the UK is that this kind of work has become monopolised by gang-masters who have an interest in recruiting workers from the poorest areas of the EU.
I'm not so sure there is any great shortage of willing workers at the moment but it may be a problem in the future once free-movement comes to an end?
As has been mentioned about the US above, there is this myth, propagated by the media, that natives aren't interested, are too lazy and so on...
Truth is that farmers have gotten away with exploiting cheap labour and they don't want it to end. You try getting a job today, as a UK native, picking vegetables and you'll likely face a brick wall.
We didn't have any problems before when people could do casual seasonal work for a fair days pay. When the source of cheap labour dries up we'll likely go back to not having problems. Just a few fat farmers will be slightly miffed about it.
Crops are not capable of suffering. Another publication that spreads the idea that inanimate things can suffer, while the true suffering is experienced by workers.
It is just the hn title that is terrible. The article has the following title "California Crops Rot as Immigration Crackdown Creates Farmworker Shortage".
Somehow the hn title manages to put the blame with the Mexicans.
[+] [-] rgbrenner|8 years ago|reply
They need to raise their wages, pay what it really costs for labor.
And as a bonus, the increased costs will provide an incentive for future automation.
[+] [-] knz|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] monksy|8 years ago|reply
That being said, due to the currency leveraging, many central American economies, cultures, and peoples have suffered from the illegal immigration as well.
[+] [-] mc32|8 years ago|reply
In addition, higher prices might make us less wasteful. What is it, 30% of food ends up in the rubbish bin?
[+] [-] bluedino|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] entee|8 years ago|reply
It's also hard to recruit workers to a gig that's temporary and seasonal. That can maybe be made up for in wages though.
I'm also curious about where the labor is required. Corn/wheat is mostly a machine based harvest, I assume there are few migrant workers there but I don't know. Is there analysis on where migrants end up on the value chain of farm products?
Also, while there's some talk of undocumented immigrants, I think there's also a legal seasonal-labor system in the US. Trump famously uses it to staff Mar-a-lago. How many migrant farm workers are under that system?
[+] [-] innagadadavida|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tptacek|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emtel|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adynatos|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] debt|8 years ago|reply
The migrant workers were that automation. Farmers got the same labor for less cost that return many multiples the value to customers.
[+] [-] OliverJones|8 years ago|reply
It's an inconvenient truth of the scaled up agriculture that produces food for us city folk.
Many European countries have formal guest-worker programs. A big consequence of the EU is easier guest-worker access and better working conditions.
The reason the USA immigration hassle never gets solved by congresscritters is this: it's convenient economically to have an underclass of workers with few rights and no recourse for mistreatment. Congresscritters have to say they're TRYING to solve the problem or they appear to be amoral. But they can't actually solve the problem without antagonizing the 1% who pay their re-election campaign bills. So the issue is a perennial theme of chin music. Both major US parties do this.
[+] [-] philipodonnell|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trs80|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hprotagonist|8 years ago|reply
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/despite-economy-americans-dont-...
Most americans are unwilling to work on farms, even at the heights of the recent recession.
[+] [-] kbenson|8 years ago|reply
Possibly, but it may also depend on how much the current political climate could have been foreseen. The reality is that it's been the status quo for decades, and there's been clemency for illegal immigrants that grants citizenship in the past.
Ultimately while it ended up being a bad decision, it might have been one that was considered an extremely safe one until everything changed. Sort of like buying a car with the assumption you'll still have a job next year. If you needed a car then it might have been good decision until all of a sudden it really wasn't.
[+] [-] r00fus|8 years ago|reply
This is an area for regulation (no one raised an eye when they got cheap labor) and economic incentives (NAFTA f'd over Central American economies, commodities market manipulation causes prices to skyrocket in developing markets - both causing mass migrations).
[+] [-] louprado|8 years ago|reply
The US administration seems to believe that our economic growth was cash constrained, hence the massive corporate tax cut. But for many industries growth is labor constrained.
[1] Colloquial phrase for Central American human traffickers.
[+] [-] philipodonnell|8 years ago|reply
I'm not going to point fingers at anyone, but corporate cash levels were already hitting records before the tax cuts passed and money was already available at record-low interest rates. Anyone who thought our companies were cash-constrained was intentionally not paying attention.
[+] [-] bob_theslob646|8 years ago|reply
>Alabama’s Failed Anti-Immigration Law The state's experiment in "self-deportation" reveals what might happen if the US sent 11 million undocumented workers home.
[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8gk7nx/what-alabamas-fail...]
[+] [-] trs80|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HumanDrivenDev|8 years ago|reply
Come on. Vice documentaries are entertainment at best. I've enjoyed a couple of them myself but I would never use them to prop up my political arguments.
[+] [-] chrisbennet|8 years ago|reply
”For a typical household, a 40 percent increase in farm labor costs translates into a 3.6 percent increase in retail prices. If farm wages rose 40 percent, and this wage increase were passed on to consumers, average spending on fresh fruits and vegetables would rise about $15 a year, the cost of two movie tickets. However, for a typical seasonal farm worker, a 40 percent wage increase could raise earnings from $10,000 for 1,000 hours of work to $14,000 — lifting the wage above the federal poverty line.”
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/08/17/could-farms...
[+] [-] patrickg_zill|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] OliverJones|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kps|8 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy
[+] [-] philk10|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stefs|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sremani|8 years ago|reply
Hey I am not going to feel bad, that McDonald does not have a Dollar Menu any more. May be the market forces are the right medicine for the "obesity" problems America is facing.
[+] [-] ikeyany|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] enervate|8 years ago|reply
Heres a link: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/05/27/136718112...
[+] [-] tptacek|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rjbwork|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lalos|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] craftyguy|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hugh4life|8 years ago|reply
(I come from a family of farmers... going up my family tree there are been nothing but farmers)
[+] [-] coldtea|8 years ago|reply
Since the job doesn't require any specialization (which could take years to master and thus might cause a shortage), it should be easy to fill such positions from the large unemployment pool if employers started paying more to compensate for the missing Mexicans.
But it's only a shortage of people willing to do the work at shitty prices.
[+] [-] ccozan|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] quantumofmalice|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DanBC|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dazc|8 years ago|reply
I'm not so sure there is any great shortage of willing workers at the moment but it may be a problem in the future once free-movement comes to an end?
As has been mentioned about the US above, there is this myth, propagated by the media, that natives aren't interested, are too lazy and so on...
Truth is that farmers have gotten away with exploiting cheap labour and they don't want it to end. You try getting a job today, as a UK native, picking vegetables and you'll likely face a brick wall.
We didn't have any problems before when people could do casual seasonal work for a fair days pay. When the source of cheap labour dries up we'll likely go back to not having problems. Just a few fat farmers will be slightly miffed about it.
[+] [-] millermp12|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] coolso|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] coliveira|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tsomctl|8 years ago|reply
(https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suffer)
[+] [-] rejschaap|8 years ago|reply
Somehow the hn title manages to put the blame with the Mexicans.
[+] [-] dmritard96|8 years ago|reply