He doesn't really mention that the reason chess players and musicians can take more with each glance at a position/page is that they see in chunks, not individual elements - that comes from learning the patterns, e.g. in chess "short-castled white king with pawn on h3", in music "C7 chord with melody on the 7th" etc. It's just like adding more layers to a neural network, each layer building things from the elements of the previous one. Or like us reading a page of writing - we don't have to look at each letter like a beginner reader, and barely at some individual words. I guess looking at a C for-loop is like that for someone who's seen 1000s. Apparently chess masters don't look at more positions and moves than a beginner; they just see so much more, and intuitively only look at the best moves in a position (mostly anyway).
Learning to improvise jazz seems different to Franklin's method, in that you don't listen to a jazz great's solo, put it aside and later try to reconstruct it; you have to play it exactly, writing it out if necessary, and play it over and over until it starts to become intuitive; until the muscles learn it. And that must be done with many different solos. And copying just one person just makes you a clone of them. I guess learning programming doesn't have that essential element of imitating the styles of individual great programmers, although maybe for some people it does.
Learning to improvise jazz seems different to Franklin's method, in that you don't listen to a jazz great's solo, put it aside and later try to reconstruct it; you have to play it exactly, writing it out if necessary, and play it over and over until it starts to become intuitive; until the muscles learn it.
I think that this Franklin method is basically how I learned. Jazz solos are not generally random; they are based on particular chords and/or scales/modes. The best improvisers tend to be good composers in general, and improvising is composing real-time. Get a good handle on what chord/mode to center you're composing around, and construct a jazz solo likewise.
Q. Who are the great programmers, with inimitable or at least unmistakable and unique styles? Is there such a thing, as happens with music improvisers, composers, artists, writers?
Another advantage musicians practiced in reading sheet music have (assuming they're also practiced in the general play of their instrument) is that music falls into various scales and modes. Learning and practicing the scales and modes in different ways and patterns allows musicians to have a wide set of skills that can be quickly applied to most music.
Another big difference is that the chess players and musicians he mentions are already experts. If you are learning a new language, you probably don't know the syntax, and maybe even don't have a clue about the programming paradigm.
It's been said about many things that they can't be taught, only learnt. (e.g. Botvinnik—founder of the "Russian school of chess"—said it about chess, I say it about jazz, Oakeshott's Rationality in Politics is about that)
Is that true of programming also?
Maybe that's what the article's saying—you have to learn for yourself. Well, there are typically a lot of Exercises in maths books because that's how you learn that stuff, by seeing for yourself, working things out, not from just being told it.
When I studied jazz piano at university, I was actually taught a very similar technique to the one described in the aritcle. You're right in that we would learn to memorize transcriptions of great players, but there was also a step where we might deconstruct there techniques and apply our own approach to them.
For example, I might see that John Coltrane used a certain scale or lick at a certain point in a song. I then might make a note in my music 'Use X scale here' as an exercise while improvising.
The effect is similar to what the author is describing - chunking broad ideas and implementing them ourselves as practice.
I think a good learning trick that's an intermediate point between the two approaches he discusses (copying the sample code vs. closing the book and write the code yourself) is to write a different program based on what you can see in the sample code. That's how I learn tech myself--I already have some other project in mind, so I rarely sit down to build 'sample' apps with any sincerity. I try sample code to the extent needed to run it without errors, then integrate patterns from it into some other code I was meaning to write in the first place.
To use the Benjamin Franklin analogy, it would be like Franklin having the articles he was seeking to understand open before him, but adding new paragraphs in between the original text, or re-purposing the article into a speech.
This is a very common pedagogical approach of course--hence the cliche phrase 'left as an exercise for the reader.' The subtlety is that this is usually a hypothetical exercise on top of an already hypothetical problem, whereas if I have my own project in mind, I am far more motivated to figure things out.
One of my go-to projects for learning a new language is implementing Conway's Game of Life (while trying my best to follow the idioms of the language).
I feel that project is easy enough to not get terribly frustrating, but not entirely trivial, forcing you to think a bit about how you are going to structure it.
What I like about languages with REPLs is that I can just copy-paste stuff and then muck about at various points of execution to get an idea of how things work, or prod at the different parts.
Most programming books do not let you pause to reflect. They just go on and on. Consider Fluent Python by Luis Ramalho. If you read through the book, you will not get much out of it. However, if after each chapter, you try to come up with a practical application of the concepts discussed, then you will have a better chance at building a mental model around the topics. The code presented is just a solution to a problem. You need to come up with more problems. Basically, don't be a passive learner. Be an active learner.
In the case of "Fluent Python", the author fairly explicitly calls out it is not for rote learning of the basic language:
> ..."if you read it too early in your Python journey, it may give you the impression that every Python script should leverage special methods and metaprogramming tricks."
If you enjoyed the Franklin quote in this article, check out his autobiography. It is a gold mine of "life hacks", demonstrated via accounts of Franklin's remarkable life. It seems to be one of the original American self-help books :)
"I grew convinc'd that Truth, Sincerity and Integrity in Dealings between Man and Man, were of the utmost Importance to the Felicity of Life." I live my life according this. I've regretted many mistakes along the way. I have never regretted telling the truth. I might withhold the truth. I might knowingly let people assume things, but that is their own fault. I will not lie. The problem after reading this in high school is that I became a lover of truth which I later learned is a philosopher.
I'm actually not entirely sure how I learned how to program (I'm self-taught); I doubt it was just "one magic thing", but I am a big believer in the "learning-by-doing" approach for this kind of stuff.
If I recall, I think the thing that made everything stick was me reading through one of those "Sams: Teach Yourself C in blah days", then downloading Code::Blocks and making a very simple OpenGL application involving bouncing boxes (which happened to coincide with the physics class I was taking). I remember using that book for reference for when my code wasn't compiling, but I found it difficult to derive "some example where I calculate a Fibonacci sequence" to "making cool stuff like a game" without just ditching the book and trying it.
tl;dr, I somewhat agree with this article. You have to figure this stuff out for yourself to really "understand" it and become a good programmer. It's a language, after all. You don't just learn French by reading one intro-to-french book.
I’m much the same and I always feel odd trying to answer that question. I learned programming by immersing myself in the subject and trying and reading and talking about as much as I could. There was never a magic bullet, besides the fact that the returns on persistence began to compound.
While I agree that there are a lot of bad books out there, I don't agree that programming books suck in general. I very much prefer a well structured book over one of those chaotic tutorials that leave me with more questions than answers. Especially for languages where the "why" matters a lot more than the "how".
> It’s a lot like the way you may have already been doing it, just with more learning.
Maybe that's the reason why I disagree. Indeed, they way I read a book is by putting its content into practice.
Until a few weeks ago I had never bought a programming book, instead electing to learn on the job. I've noticed that since I'm not a novice programmer anymore, by far the most efficient way to learn is to use the method in the article. I've been working through K&R C and have been doing exactly what the article says--read the code, understand how it works, then write it. When it breaks, go back and learn why. After a few exercises, you'll find yourself adding your own flair and style, which is essential for your growth as a programmer. Plus, it's a much more fulfilling feeling of accomplishment when you can create something from scratch, rather than copy-pasting.
Books present information in various ways. Some books have questions that you can answer yourself to teach yourself how to do things. It looks like this author would be a fan of Learn C the Hard way by Zed Shaw. But, if you are buying a book to learn how to do something coming in with some kind of goal is more instructive than reading a book and regurgitating the answers. The author has a good idea on how to make the tutorials in a book into questions but at the end of the day you will teach yourself only what it is in the book.
My technique: I read the book till I get stuck and start back at page one till I get stuck again. I'm a little stubborn I guess.
Different Program Books Make Different Goals. My favorite are that there is a higher point to be made. My favorite books of this type have been made by Matthias Felleisen.
Little Schemer helped me to understand the though process more than learning a specific language.
How to Design Programs was super dense but it took me through the process of actually designing programs in a logical manner.
My favorite domain specific book has been: Hands-On Programming with R. It also was more about here is a logical problem and this is a way to solve it. http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920028574.do
The books he is talking about were not originally about instruction in a language. They were great reference books in the days before Stack Overflow, or even before the web had so much info on it. Now, if you want to argue that they are outdated, I may buy that... but saying that the entire series is unhelpful just because it doesn't match their/a better learning style.... seems like a big misunderstanding.
I think this article is interesting but it's really only skirting around the edges of the topic of "learning programming" or patterns or a new language or whatever. A good programming book is written from a an understanding of what programming is: Puzzle solving.
A lot of people think programming is a creative work--and it is to some extent--but if you've ever looked at a block of code and thought to yourself, "this could be written better"--you should realize that, "coding better" is really an exploratory action. You won't know if it's better until you actually run it or someone else reads it and agrees that it is easier to read, makes more sense, etc.
Writing software is fundamentally an act of discovery. If anything has proven this it's the recent Spectre and Meltdown vulnerabilities. Yes, we're 99% sure how our code will perform while in operation but we can never be absolutely 100% certain. Because the CPU, the memory, the chipsets, and other hardware are really just exceptionally reliable laboratory equipment and our experiments (software) have been shown to work precisely as expected almost all the time.
A good programming book will provide plenty of code examples but when it comes time for the reader to practice what they've learned a truly great book will provide the reader with puzzles to solve.
I've been trying to help one of my friends learn basic coding skills, and the method we used was similar. First, there would be a problem we wanted to solve, I would walk through with him to the solution, and write the code as we speak. By the time we were done, I'd let him study the code for a bit, delete everything, and wanted him to rewrite it.
James Koppel (author of the blog) helped me saw the whole thing from another perspective, and I also loved that he has a high Signal-to-Noise ratio.
I've been reading the Norton Edition of Franklin's autobiography and some of the excerpts in the back of the book are pretty amazing. A lot of them pretty vicious European responses to Franklin's approaches, especially his list of virtues. For instance D.H. Lawrence:
Hehe thanks, that was fun. Well, Lawrence ranted similarly about everyone, with enough truth to make you think for a moment he might be totally right. He got his schtick from his wife Frieda, who'd gotten it from a love affair with the Austrian psychologist Otto Gross, a "champion of an early form of anti-psychiatry and sexual liberation", "proto-feminist and neo-pagan" etc.
> Traditionally, there are two ways to study a page like this:
> 1. Type out every line of code
> 2. Copy+paste the code from their website, maybe play around and make small changes
Um... wut? How about:
3. Read the code. Think.
If you're reading programming books as practice, and think you're supposed to copy the code examples to learn, you're doing it wrong. If you need eval() to figure out what's going on, you need to spend more time practicing the basics, then step up to the book.
Yeah, I've never typed any of the code examples of programming books.. I just read it to understand the concepts. Often I can go really fast when most of it is familiar, but when something catch my attention I work hard to decipher and understand it. if I can't, I'll re-read the chapter or search online.
As a side note, it would be great to have more programming books written like this. I.e. We assume you already know language X so here are the differences and why; focusing mainly on specific code examples and gotchas of the new language.
By semi-pseudocode, I mean that I'm okay with not having the program in its full completeness with the less important part being abstracted away, but for the concepts that are being explained to be detailed, thorough and well documented.
As a fun exercise, one could take a big programming book and trim it down to a 1/10th (or more). There are so many useless sections. Most great devs are good at skipping through the bullshit.. why not just remove that part entirely!
Reason is probably monetary or politic. I.e. can sell to a larger audience by being more beginner friendly and/or need to have a certain amount of page and follow a template to be published.
While this is definitely what I do, for some reason, I always believe I'm not doing things "they way you're supposed to", so I almost never argue when articles don't mention doing things the way I'm doing them.
This guy is nuts. Basically every article I look at I wind up reading multiple times and get new information each time. If I had the attention span to keep reading them I would probably keep learning too...
I admit that even simple articles often have nuance that many would benefit from better exposure. Yet, a limited attention span would seem to be eclipsed simply by have better options in the vast sea of material not yet seen.
This is a pretty common learning technique, one that's been validated in cognitive psychology and cognitive neuroscience research, and one that in grad school (in a different field) I would teach to undergrads that were struggling in the classes I TA'ed. I only wished I had learned it as an undergrad.
For more conceptual learnings, I would instead write questions that capture the main ideas of some subsection or whatnot, then at the end of the chapter, close the book, answer the questions, and summarize the questions. Then go back and check the answers. It takes longer, but active recall helps memory encoding.
This is a great technique to learning. I taught myself how to code after college and found doing my own version of this helpful. The only slight difference in the technique I used was I found it easier to learn when I had something I wanted to build in mind. This helped both in both direction, what to learn, as well as forcing me replicate code for my own use, like the Ben Franklin technique. Hope others find it useful too.
> I found it easier to learn when I had something I wanted to build in mind
I don't understand how you can learn this stuff in any other way. I think it's a little bit like learning a musical instrument. One can read lots of stuff about guitars and music theory and how to play the guitar, but none of that matters until you pick up an actual guitar.
Perhaps, instead of reading Programming books, people should master the core tenets of programming first such as OO from such books as "clean code", "Code complete".
That will make it easier for readers to understand and retain information from programming books?
This is basically how I'd been telling people to learn from programming tutorial videos for years:
Do the exercise with the video. Do it again, only referencing the video when necessary. If you used the video a lot, do it a third time.
If it doesn't stick after a third time, it probably isn't going to without more tutorials, so go ahead and continue on. I'm betting most people get enough out of the second time, though, especially after doing this a few times and getting the hang of it.
And it's more or less what I've always done, though maybe not exactly following those steps.
This sounds like an excellent idea. However, what about choice of material? We pick a musical piece to learn because we enjoy the tune and how it sounds. How should a beginner choose which code to memorise?
Of course, the same method can be applied to reading other people's code. Actually, that's analogous to what Franklin did. He tried to capture the essence of a finished work of which he approved.
Using a phrase-book in such a manner wouldn't be beneficial. And programming language books are much like phrase-books: guides to syntax.
Other kinds of programming books, in the category "Do X with Y programming language" are best avoided. They tend to look like phone-books. It is best to decouple X from Y.
I don't find the complete code examples to be that bad. Yes, if you just copy and paste and maybe tinker a bit you will miss a lot. If you type them in blindly like a secretary typing a dictation you will miss a lot.
But if you type them in, and study each line as you go, not proceeding until you understand what that line is doing and why it's there, a working example can be very helpful.
" This is also why a smart code-completion tool can guess a long sequence of code from the first couple lines. With a better mental representation, understanding code is simply less work. "
=> Is the author protesting against the use of auto-completion/Intellisense feature of most of the modern IDEs ?
IMHO it's very good, and decreases the typing time ONLY if you understand the code, and you know what it's doing. Too often I have seen programmers with a strange approach: "I don't need to know, I don't need to think because I have my IDE".
thanks for this! I had trouble going through some programming courses, and going in parallel with the teacher. But I never made the connection - to just watch it first and try to reproduce it on my own after. Simple and brilliant advice!
It's not clear what you mean "just deliberate practice".
He was imitating a style he liked, trying to acquire to ability to write like that. Using the method in programming seems different, in that it's not the particular writer's unique style you're trying to acquire, but other things.
On one hand, I am glad to say I have been practicing the given advice for many years. On the other, I am intimidated at the notion that others learn anything useful without doing so.
Different learning styles are appropriate for different learners, stages of learning, and lesson types. What's important is that you found a learning style that works for you and that you can build on.
yesenadam|8 years ago
Learning to improvise jazz seems different to Franklin's method, in that you don't listen to a jazz great's solo, put it aside and later try to reconstruct it; you have to play it exactly, writing it out if necessary, and play it over and over until it starts to become intuitive; until the muscles learn it. And that must be done with many different solos. And copying just one person just makes you a clone of them. I guess learning programming doesn't have that essential element of imitating the styles of individual great programmers, although maybe for some people it does.
tjr|8 years ago
I think that this Franklin method is basically how I learned. Jazz solos are not generally random; they are based on particular chords and/or scales/modes. The best improvisers tend to be good composers in general, and improvising is composing real-time. Get a good handle on what chord/mode to center you're composing around, and construct a jazz solo likewise.
firethief|8 years ago
Compression : finding patterns :: forest : trees.
yesenadam|8 years ago
artimaeis|8 years ago
edko|8 years ago
yesenadam|8 years ago
It's been said about many things that they can't be taught, only learnt. (e.g. Botvinnik—founder of the "Russian school of chess"—said it about chess, I say it about jazz, Oakeshott's Rationality in Politics is about that)
Is that true of programming also?
Maybe that's what the article's saying—you have to learn for yourself. Well, there are typically a lot of Exercises in maths books because that's how you learn that stuff, by seeing for yourself, working things out, not from just being told it.
dad_chowder|8 years ago
For example, I might see that John Coltrane used a certain scale or lick at a certain point in a song. I then might make a note in my music 'Use X scale here' as an exercise while improvising.
The effect is similar to what the author is describing - chunking broad ideas and implementing them ourselves as practice.
firasd|8 years ago
To use the Benjamin Franklin analogy, it would be like Franklin having the articles he was seeking to understand open before him, but adding new paragraphs in between the original text, or re-purposing the article into a speech.
This is a very common pedagogical approach of course--hence the cliche phrase 'left as an exercise for the reader.' The subtlety is that this is usually a hypothetical exercise on top of an already hypothetical problem, whereas if I have my own project in mind, I am far more motivated to figure things out.
tombert|8 years ago
I feel that project is easy enough to not get terribly frustrating, but not entirely trivial, forcing you to think a bit about how you are going to structure it.
mercer|8 years ago
__strisk|8 years ago
tw1010|8 years ago
Tehchops|8 years ago
> ..."if you read it too early in your Python journey, it may give you the impression that every Python script should leverage special methods and metaprogramming tricks."
dslama|8 years ago
zappo2938|8 years ago
bluehat|8 years ago
programmer_dude|8 years ago
tombert|8 years ago
If I recall, I think the thing that made everything stick was me reading through one of those "Sams: Teach Yourself C in blah days", then downloading Code::Blocks and making a very simple OpenGL application involving bouncing boxes (which happened to coincide with the physics class I was taking). I remember using that book for reference for when my code wasn't compiling, but I found it difficult to derive "some example where I calculate a Fibonacci sequence" to "making cool stuff like a game" without just ditching the book and trying it.
tl;dr, I somewhat agree with this article. You have to figure this stuff out for yourself to really "understand" it and become a good programmer. It's a language, after all. You don't just learn French by reading one intro-to-french book.
travmatt|8 years ago
JDevlieghere|8 years ago
While I agree that there are a lot of bad books out there, I don't agree that programming books suck in general. I very much prefer a well structured book over one of those chaotic tutorials that leave me with more questions than answers. Especially for languages where the "why" matters a lot more than the "how".
> It’s a lot like the way you may have already been doing it, just with more learning.
Maybe that's the reason why I disagree. Indeed, they way I read a book is by putting its content into practice.
jihadjihad|8 years ago
zitterbewegung|8 years ago
bluehat|8 years ago
baldfat|8 years ago
Different Program Books Make Different Goals. My favorite are that there is a higher point to be made. My favorite books of this type have been made by Matthias Felleisen.
Little Schemer helped me to understand the though process more than learning a specific language.
How to Design Programs was super dense but it took me through the process of actually designing programs in a logical manner.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/
My favorite domain specific book has been: Hands-On Programming with R. It also was more about here is a logical problem and this is a way to solve it. http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920028574.do
codingdave|8 years ago
riskable|8 years ago
A lot of people think programming is a creative work--and it is to some extent--but if you've ever looked at a block of code and thought to yourself, "this could be written better"--you should realize that, "coding better" is really an exploratory action. You won't know if it's better until you actually run it or someone else reads it and agrees that it is easier to read, makes more sense, etc.
Writing software is fundamentally an act of discovery. If anything has proven this it's the recent Spectre and Meltdown vulnerabilities. Yes, we're 99% sure how our code will perform while in operation but we can never be absolutely 100% certain. Because the CPU, the memory, the chipsets, and other hardware are really just exceptionally reliable laboratory equipment and our experiments (software) have been shown to work precisely as expected almost all the time.
A good programming book will provide plenty of code examples but when it comes time for the reader to practice what they've learned a truly great book will provide the reader with puzzles to solve.
demircancelebi|8 years ago
James Koppel (author of the blog) helped me saw the whole thing from another perspective, and I also loved that he has a high Signal-to-Noise ratio.
vaskebjorn|8 years ago
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/lawrence/dhlch02.htm
yesenadam|8 years ago
closeneough|8 years ago
It was a real eye opener for me.
wainstead|8 years ago
https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn
It's taught by Barbara Oakley, and the content of her book "A Mind For Numbers" is complementary to "Make It Stick."
thesmallestcat|8 years ago
> 1. Type out every line of code
> 2. Copy+paste the code from their website, maybe play around and make small changes
Um... wut? How about:
3. Read the code. Think.
If you're reading programming books as practice, and think you're supposed to copy the code examples to learn, you're doing it wrong. If you need eval() to figure out what's going on, you need to spend more time practicing the basics, then step up to the book.
d0m|8 years ago
As a side note, it would be great to have more programming books written like this. I.e. We assume you already know language X so here are the differences and why; focusing mainly on specific code examples and gotchas of the new language.
I would prefer semi-pseudocode:
By semi-pseudocode, I mean that I'm okay with not having the program in its full completeness with the less important part being abstracted away, but for the concepts that are being explained to be detailed, thorough and well documented.As a fun exercise, one could take a big programming book and trim it down to a 1/10th (or more). There are so many useless sections. Most great devs are good at skipping through the bullshit.. why not just remove that part entirely!
Reason is probably monetary or politic. I.e. can sell to a larger audience by being more beginner friendly and/or need to have a certain amount of page and follow a template to be published.
rootlocus|8 years ago
While this is definitely what I do, for some reason, I always believe I'm not doing things "they way you're supposed to", so I almost never argue when articles don't mention doing things the way I'm doing them.
Zhyl|8 years ago
A summary of how it does it and why it is so good can be found in this 10 minute demo from creator Jonathan Blow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDSrYiheVow
bluehat|8 years ago
old_haus|8 years ago
achileas|8 years ago
For more conceptual learnings, I would instead write questions that capture the main ideas of some subsection or whatnot, then at the end of the chapter, close the book, answer the questions, and summarize the questions. Then go back and check the answers. It takes longer, but active recall helps memory encoding.
acmeyer9|8 years ago
criddell|8 years ago
I don't understand how you can learn this stuff in any other way. I think it's a little bit like learning a musical instrument. One can read lots of stuff about guitars and music theory and how to play the guitar, but none of that matters until you pick up an actual guitar.
alphaIuGN59|8 years ago
That will make it easier for readers to understand and retain information from programming books?
wccrawford|8 years ago
Do the exercise with the video. Do it again, only referencing the video when necessary. If you used the video a lot, do it a third time.
If it doesn't stick after a third time, it probably isn't going to without more tutorials, so go ahead and continue on. I'm betting most people get enough out of the second time, though, especially after doing this a few times and getting the hang of it.
And it's more or less what I've always done, though maybe not exactly following those steps.
swah|8 years ago
truculation|8 years ago
mzzter|8 years ago
A curation of good codebases by someone who studies a lot of them.
westurner|8 years ago
> Then close the book.
> Then try to type it up.
According to a passage in "The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin" (1791) regarding re-typing from "The Spectator"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Autobiography_of_Benjamin_...
EBook: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/148
mgeorgoulo|8 years ago
Using a phrase-book in such a manner wouldn't be beneficial. And programming language books are much like phrase-books: guides to syntax.
Other kinds of programming books, in the category "Do X with Y programming language" are best avoided. They tend to look like phone-books. It is best to decouple X from Y.
tommorris|8 years ago
ams6110|8 years ago
But if you type them in, and study each line as you go, not proceeding until you understand what that line is doing and why it's there, a working example can be very helpful.
sus_007|8 years ago
=> Is the author protesting against the use of auto-completion/Intellisense feature of most of the modern IDEs ?
pleasecalllater|8 years ago
dqpb|8 years ago
kaycebasques|8 years ago
el_cid|8 years ago
unknown|8 years ago
[deleted]
HiroshiSan|8 years ago
yesenadam|8 years ago
He was imitating a style he liked, trying to acquire to ability to write like that. Using the method in programming seems different, in that it's not the particular writer's unique style you're trying to acquire, but other things.
RickJWagner|8 years ago
This makes sorting through the political noise on HN worth it.
gt_|8 years ago
On one hand, I am glad to say I have been practicing the given advice for many years. On the other, I am intimidated at the notion that others learn anything useful without doing so.
mch82|8 years ago
unknown|8 years ago
[deleted]
je28jeje2|8 years ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_method
kaputsmack|8 years ago
[deleted]
j05huaNathaniel|8 years ago
[deleted]
naveen-varshney|8 years ago
unknown|8 years ago
[deleted]