Oh boy, this happened to me despite using the enterprise edition. The system forced an upgrade, despite me doing everything to stop it, and every time the upgrade crashed and I had to roll back to the previous version. Every day.
I spent a month like this, on an always-on system, trying to shut down the upgrade downloader from the task bar whenever I can after failing to stop it from settings, group policy, horsing around in powershell etc. Before that, I had also tried to make the upgrade work by doing it manually, updating drivers, unplugging all the peripherals etc. but it kept getting stuck halfway through. So I couldn't upgrade, and I couldn't not upgrade.
Well last week there was an update to the update so I hoped at least the upgrade would work now and I would be done with this charade. Nope, it crashed again while upgrading, except this time there was no way to roll back and use my system. I am torn between cutting windows out completely and going back to windows 7.
I'm mostly a Linux user but I use Windows at work. There is also an additional Windows computer in my house. Although I can't say I dislike Windows there is a singular issue with it that really grinds my gears. The OS assumes way too much about what I want to do. I get it that the defaults are there for the inexperienced or casual users but there really needs to be a way to tell the OS "Hands off! I know what I'm doing". I really don't want arbitrary actions to be made before I consent to them.
Yes. I've had this issue on almost every version of windows so far. As usual with Windows the only way to fix these issues is by reinstalling the operating system. After decades Microsoft still doesn't have a working update solution.
Compare this with most linux distributions. The updates can run in the background, the update process is often significantly faster and finishes in a few minutes and finally I don't need to reboot unless the kernel is updated.
As an HN reader, I believe I am qualified to comment on the strategic direction of a major multi-billion-dollar software company. By pushing to make Windows as idiot-proof as possible, Microsoft is zagging when it should zig. They've basically lost the mass market. The e-mail checking machine in the kitchen has been replaced by a tablet, and it doesn't run Windows. Their only hope is to position Windows as the OS for people who want to get serious work done, playing on their historical strength as the platform for office computers. To that end, they have to stop taking the people who use Windows all day long at work for granted, because it's never been easier to find an alternative, and if they lose the enterprise, Windows is over.
And it's stuff like this I'm thinking of when I say "taking for granted." Telemetry. User-hostile update policies. Minecraft in the start menu. Pushing a Microsoft account for desktop login. These things are not office-user friendly, they do not say, "we take your need to do work on this computer seriously."
There are still huge numbers of casual and home users who are much better off with automatic updates and the reflex to disable them due to being a minor annoyance has to go.
Yes, those qualifications being: 1) Have a browser. 2) Be able to type your words.
> By pushing to make Windows as idiot-proof as possible... They've basically lost the mass market. The e-mail checking machine in the kitchen has been replaced by a tablet...
I've never known anyone to have an "e-mail" checking machine in their kitchen. I do know lots of folks who work at home though and they all use Windows.
> Their only hope is to position Windows as the OS for people who want to get serious work done...
OK, done and done.
> ...because it's never been easier to find an alternative...
Go ahead, find one. I'll wait. Please tell me what OS is going to replace Windows??
> Telemetry. User-hostile update policies. Minecraft in the start menu. Pushing a Microsoft account for desktop login. These things are not office-user friendly...
Telemetry, updates and games have been part of Windows since forever. None of this is new. Search for: Office 2000 Customer Experience Improvement. You'll find people asking how to turn it off.
> By pushing to make Windows as idiot-proof as possible, Microsoft is zagging when it should zig. [...] Their only hope is to position Windows as the OS for people who want to get serious work done
Arguably that's what they are doing by making Windows as idiot-proof as possible. For all their accidental botnets, the home users forgetting or not knowing to keep their machines updated are one problem, sure, but let's not forget that the real villains in not keeping Windows machines up to date are all in Enterprise IT. There are so many people actively working to keep machines out of date in the name of keeping their jobs "easy" or "stability", and that should be a staggering statistic.
I've got a feeling the number of Fortune 5,000 companies that have contributed to botnets is incredibly underreported, and I've got a feeling the number of Fortune 500 companies that have only avoided that fate by raw luck and bubble gum is a lot bigger than people think.
> Telemetry
Enterprise loves Telemetry. They want your machine to spy on all your activities. They want to complain that you spend too much time on HN and accidentally glance at articles related to "Gaming" during work time because they have a cool HN discussion thread.
Admittedly, some are overtly mad at Microsoft for getting access to that data themselves and trying to use some telemetry to improve their products, but how many of those complaining are covertly excited that they get access to the same data in tools like System Center?
> User-hostile update policies.
Per above, Enterprises have shown they need to be forced to update too.
> Pushing a Microsoft account for desktop login.
Enterprises love accounts. It helps keep things accountable. (Terrible pun intended.) Your Microsoft account gets to connect to your Office 365 work account. They can send you reminders to your personal Microsoft Account via the Microsoft Graph to your home computer to get back to work, if you let them. With BYOD workplaces, your home computer can double as your workplace computer and you can be so productive with all your accounts communicating together in "harmony", personal and work.
For the users used to using an AD domain account every day at work, a personal Microsoft Account can make their home devices feel like a "real boy" with the nice things like profile roaming that their Enterprise AD accounts get (assuming the Enterprise doesn't turn off nice things with Group Policies and mismanagement, of course).
> These things are not office-user friendly
Except for Minecraft, these things are extremely office-user friendly. These are things Enterprises love. These are reasons why most Enterprises couldn't quit Windows if they tried.
(Even forced updates; as much as some companies are griping right now, soon it will be the new normal and corporate ITs will adjust. They'll continue to complain, having a nice scapegoat to blame in Microsoft for update failures, but they'll also likely enjoy the perks of the new regime eventually as they realize that tech debt of not updating was its own misery and less "easy" than they thought it was.)
- Ignores options blocking automatic updates
- Installs update assistant on your machine without permission
- Starts downloading updates without giving you the option to stop other than killing the process (which just restarts again in a few minutes)
- Re-installs update assistant if you try to delete/uninstall or break it
- Re-starts update service within minutes even if you keep disabling it
- Re-boots your machine without your permission
Those were a lot of "accidents". Some of this behavior was on par with most viruses I've come across...
Seems MS were really desperate to get this update out.
Will be upgrading to windows 7/8.1 as soon as I get the time(until I am hopefully able to jump ship to linux).
This worries me as I have a Win 10 computer in a house that runs off a mifi Hotspot. If windows blows through my monthly bandwidth with and unwanted undate, I'm gonna be very annoyed.
Everytime they overcome the carefully crafted group policys and firewall settings- i ask myself- what is the difference to a rather run down linux distro here.
The drivers do not work, i have no control over my system, the options they offer you- are like a toddlers toys- nice buttons to push, which the 'adults' can safely ignore on every update.
The only thing still keeping me in windows is the ecosystem of software, they have held hostage. But there is a exit sign glowing brighter every thursday:
https://www.vmware.com/?PID=3607085&PubCID=2786910
The only secure way to run windows at this point is to get an old CD or ISO and run it in a VM or air-gapped machine. Unfortunately a lot of software these days ignores the possibility of being disconnected from the internet - some folks won't even provide a real installer, just a downloader for the installer.
There is an overwhelming amount of "but the users NEED to update" in the Windows 10 community. Sorry but now users are running random scripts they find on the internet. This is worse than just "hacking the registry" or adding some group policy to disable auto-updates.
I need security and no random shutdowns. I switched to linux about a year ago. Lots of complaints, yes, but no auto-updates.
For every person running a script there are thousands now updating their computers who would've simply clicked 'no' on previous versions.
Win10 is inherently more secure because of these forced updates. Think about WannaCry... it only worked _because_ people (and organisations) don't update.
Now I understand that some people apparently need a system that will never update, but I agree with the policy of simply forcing the updates for 99% of the people.
"A strategy devised by Myhrvold the salesman was just as significant. He laid it out in a memo to Gates in 1992: "Regular upgrades are important for both revenue and loyalty...A feeling of progress and improvement is necessary to keep users loyal...and an important way to produce revenue. Upgrades are the closest thing we have to an annual fee or subscription."
Windows 10 updates in the past fortnight have consumed 9+ Gb of my data after failing again and again due to my choppy wifi connection (there's no other option available as I live in a university hostel). Having limited data per month, this has made me buy up extra data just to get through this month. Being a student, internet is indispensable and Microsoft doing this is really bad on their part.
I find it crazy that resumable downloads aren't the table stakes for an automated upgrade system.
Really, they also should be using erasure codes over UDP with TCP-friendly flow control in order to make more efficient use of noisy or high-latency channels.
Was a suggestion to null route all Microsoft domains, which is likely a decent option for an individual or small company. Cant see it going down well at large scale.
I don't believe this is accidental. It's a strategy to get updates out that help Microsoft, and then handle the PR afterwards. Most likely this won't get much attention and Microsoft gets away with it.
My understanding was you couldn’t block the updates on windows 10. Looks like in creators update, they offered ability to block updates/and this has been ignored. As far as forcing updates, it’s kind of a double edged sword... noble to protect the masses, but honestly it’s been a terrible experience. We had a small ‘pilot’ team give it a try for a length of time. It seemed almost every time the updates install, we’re dealing with failed network drivers, no displays, blue screens and the odd boot failure. Not very good for a professional services staff under tight client deadlines. We’re not upgrading to Windows 10 at this time.
Aside from those running windows-exclusive software, I'm more and more boggled at the fact that some people still choose windows over other OSes. I couldn't imagine living with this sort of crap. To each their own, I guess
It's a really nice development ecosystem I'm told.
Our developers write exclusively Windows software (games company) and even though it costs us multiple millions of dollars in software licenses to run dedicated servers, the "cost of porting" is high enough to prevent people from doing it.
I have to use a bash script to increase/decrease brightness. The keyboard keys do nothing. My audio comes out both the headphones and speakers when the headphones are plugged in. Sometimes I have to use a bash script to make it play out the headphones. It'll still play out the speakers.
It is possible that their implementation of settings simply sucks, not checking the off-switch everywhere it should. This is one reason I don’t trust Facebook’s huge list of “settings” either, for instance. In complex systems there are just too many ways that a switch can be ignored, even if you do trust the intentions of the developer.
A better solution for this (and Facebook) is to physically block at the client. And rather than providing “settings”, Microsoft should proactively encourage this too: the official FAQ for disabling updates should essentially be specifying the domains and IPs to block in routers for example.
I always think that the "10 tough questions we got asked" [1] weren't really tough, and that it's still the same old Microsoft just presenting itself in a slightly different way.
I think nobody who was there in the previous era of Microsoft has any trouble seeing that they haven't changed. It's just because of a new generation without experience that they are getting away with rebranding themselves. People who go for Microsoft today will be locked in to their tech stack as always after a while.
I am so fucking done with Windows. Windows 10 has a lot of cool things I like and that are useful to me, but the only other time I felt such a complete lack of control over my systems was during a 3 month Apple Mac experiment (ended with an apple mac being flung from a 3rd story window).
Research for the coming months: getting Linux running on my Surface Pro.
Because while Microsoft is one huge entity, it isn’t run the same in every department. While one department might be hugely user friendly, another won’t.
Well, the good news is they haven't managed to get through to my (severely eviscerated) Win10 Enterprise system yet - the only Win10 system I run. Still, I guess it's time to finally block the relevant domains in the router to be safe.
After the next hardware upgrade, I'll finally be able to relegate Windows to a VFIO VM without network access. Looking forward to it more and more.
A few years ago you would have Apple fans bragging about how Apple is so much better, but now it's just as bad.
You have Linux left, but then again I accidentally removed the wrong package the other day and I made my system completely non-functional, to the point that I had to reinstall from scratch.
A platform company ought to know better: at this point in history, peoples’ entire lives (or companies’ entire data sets) are intertwined with computers. You are not just talking about a software update anymore, you are directly inserting yourself into people’s lives/businesses. That means you should not just do whatever the hell you want.
Microsoft doesn’t deserve 44th or 45th chances to get it right with decades of experience and billions of dollars. Does a law need to change here?
[+] [-] yolobey|8 years ago|reply
I spent a month like this, on an always-on system, trying to shut down the upgrade downloader from the task bar whenever I can after failing to stop it from settings, group policy, horsing around in powershell etc. Before that, I had also tried to make the upgrade work by doing it manually, updating drivers, unplugging all the peripherals etc. but it kept getting stuck halfway through. So I couldn't upgrade, and I couldn't not upgrade.
Well last week there was an update to the update so I hoped at least the upgrade would work now and I would be done with this charade. Nope, it crashed again while upgrading, except this time there was no way to roll back and use my system. I am torn between cutting windows out completely and going back to windows 7.
[+] [-] spystath|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] imtringued|8 years ago|reply
Compare this with most linux distributions. The updates can run in the background, the update process is often significantly faster and finishes in a few minutes and finally I don't need to reboot unless the kernel is updated.
[+] [-] executesorder66|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lancefisher|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] volkl48|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sevensor|8 years ago|reply
And it's stuff like this I'm thinking of when I say "taking for granted." Telemetry. User-hostile update policies. Minecraft in the start menu. Pushing a Microsoft account for desktop login. These things are not office-user friendly, they do not say, "we take your need to do work on this computer seriously."
[+] [-] thirdsun|8 years ago|reply
There are still huge numbers of casual and home users who are much better off with automatic updates and the reflex to disable them due to being a minor annoyance has to go.
[+] [-] hungerstrike|8 years ago|reply
Yes, those qualifications being: 1) Have a browser. 2) Be able to type your words.
> By pushing to make Windows as idiot-proof as possible... They've basically lost the mass market. The e-mail checking machine in the kitchen has been replaced by a tablet...
I've never known anyone to have an "e-mail" checking machine in their kitchen. I do know lots of folks who work at home though and they all use Windows.
> Their only hope is to position Windows as the OS for people who want to get serious work done...
OK, done and done.
> ...because it's never been easier to find an alternative...
Go ahead, find one. I'll wait. Please tell me what OS is going to replace Windows??
> Telemetry. User-hostile update policies. Minecraft in the start menu. Pushing a Microsoft account for desktop login. These things are not office-user friendly...
Telemetry, updates and games have been part of Windows since forever. None of this is new. Search for: Office 2000 Customer Experience Improvement. You'll find people asking how to turn it off.
[+] [-] WorldMaker|8 years ago|reply
Arguably that's what they are doing by making Windows as idiot-proof as possible. For all their accidental botnets, the home users forgetting or not knowing to keep their machines updated are one problem, sure, but let's not forget that the real villains in not keeping Windows machines up to date are all in Enterprise IT. There are so many people actively working to keep machines out of date in the name of keeping their jobs "easy" or "stability", and that should be a staggering statistic.
I've got a feeling the number of Fortune 5,000 companies that have contributed to botnets is incredibly underreported, and I've got a feeling the number of Fortune 500 companies that have only avoided that fate by raw luck and bubble gum is a lot bigger than people think.
> Telemetry
Enterprise loves Telemetry. They want your machine to spy on all your activities. They want to complain that you spend too much time on HN and accidentally glance at articles related to "Gaming" during work time because they have a cool HN discussion thread.
Admittedly, some are overtly mad at Microsoft for getting access to that data themselves and trying to use some telemetry to improve their products, but how many of those complaining are covertly excited that they get access to the same data in tools like System Center?
> User-hostile update policies.
Per above, Enterprises have shown they need to be forced to update too.
> Pushing a Microsoft account for desktop login.
Enterprises love accounts. It helps keep things accountable. (Terrible pun intended.) Your Microsoft account gets to connect to your Office 365 work account. They can send you reminders to your personal Microsoft Account via the Microsoft Graph to your home computer to get back to work, if you let them. With BYOD workplaces, your home computer can double as your workplace computer and you can be so productive with all your accounts communicating together in "harmony", personal and work.
For the users used to using an AD domain account every day at work, a personal Microsoft Account can make their home devices feel like a "real boy" with the nice things like profile roaming that their Enterprise AD accounts get (assuming the Enterprise doesn't turn off nice things with Group Policies and mismanagement, of course).
> These things are not office-user friendly
Except for Minecraft, these things are extremely office-user friendly. These are things Enterprises love. These are reasons why most Enterprises couldn't quit Windows if they tried.
(Even forced updates; as much as some companies are griping right now, soon it will be the new normal and corporate ITs will adjust. They'll continue to complain, having a nice scapegoat to blame in Microsoft for update failures, but they'll also likely enjoy the perks of the new regime eventually as they realize that tech debt of not updating was its own misery and less "easy" than they thought it was.)
[+] [-] zeedee|8 years ago|reply
Those were a lot of "accidents". Some of this behavior was on par with most viruses I've come across... Seems MS were really desperate to get this update out.
Will be upgrading to windows 7/8.1 as soon as I get the time(until I am hopefully able to jump ship to linux).
[+] [-] chopin|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dplgk|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LifeLiverTransp|8 years ago|reply
The drivers do not work, i have no control over my system, the options they offer you- are like a toddlers toys- nice buttons to push, which the 'adults' can safely ignore on every update.
The only thing still keeping me in windows is the ecosystem of software, they have held hostage. But there is a exit sign glowing brighter every thursday: https://www.vmware.com/?PID=3607085&PubCID=2786910
[+] [-] John_KZ|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smittywerben|8 years ago|reply
I need security and no random shutdowns. I switched to linux about a year ago. Lots of complaints, yes, but no auto-updates.
Example scripts (haven't used any):
https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1
https://github.com/W4RH4WK/Debloat-Windows-10/blob/master/sc...
https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater
https://github.com/bmrf/tron
[+] [-] apexalpha|8 years ago|reply
Win10 is inherently more secure because of these forced updates. Think about WannaCry... it only worked _because_ people (and organisations) don't update.
Now I understand that some people apparently need a system that will never update, but I agree with the policy of simply forcing the updates for 99% of the people.
[+] [-] aplorbust|8 years ago|reply
source: Profile of Nathan Myrvhold https://www.1843magazine.com/content/features/myth-buster
[+] [-] dvfjsdhgfv|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sidyapa|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] KMag|8 years ago|reply
Really, they also should be using erasure codes over UDP with TCP-friendly flow control in order to make more efficient use of noisy or high-latency channels.
[+] [-] poizan42|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ShorsHammer|8 years ago|reply
Was a suggestion to null route all Microsoft domains, which is likely a decent option for an individual or small company. Cant see it going down well at large scale.
https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/843esj/for_the_th...
[+] [-] some_account|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kazinator|8 years ago|reply
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/993765
"I've tried to disable updates through the settings, and without fail a day or so later it's updated to the latest version again. Any thoughts?"
[+] [-] senectus1|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lowlevel|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Crontab|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nunodonato|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dijit|8 years ago|reply
Our developers write exclusively Windows software (games company) and even though it costs us multiple millions of dollars in software licenses to run dedicated servers, the "cost of porting" is high enough to prevent people from doing it.
[+] [-] Can_Not|8 years ago|reply
It's still a better experience than Windows 10.
[+] [-] ramijames|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] makecheck|8 years ago|reply
A better solution for this (and Facebook) is to physically block at the client. And rather than providing “settings”, Microsoft should proactively encourage this too: the official FAQ for disabling updates should essentially be specifying the domains and IPs to block in routers for example.
[+] [-] dvfjsdhgfv|8 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.gatesnotes.com/2018-Annual-Letter
[+] [-] some_account|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mdekkers|8 years ago|reply
Research for the coming months: getting Linux running on my Surface Pro.
[+] [-] boobsbr|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] executesorder66|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] colejohnson66|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] keldaris|8 years ago|reply
After the next hardware upgrade, I'll finally be able to relegate Windows to a VFIO VM without network access. Looking forward to it more and more.
[+] [-] nkkollaw|8 years ago|reply
You have Linux left, but then again I accidentally removed the wrong package the other day and I made my system completely non-functional, to the point that I had to reinstall from scratch.
[+] [-] makecheck|8 years ago|reply
Microsoft doesn’t deserve 44th or 45th chances to get it right with decades of experience and billions of dollars. Does a law need to change here?
[+] [-] justmyopinion1|8 years ago|reply
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