There is a book by one of the people who worked on the "novichok" agents which describes in detail the story behind and the chemicals themselves, including the exact formulas and some synthesis details.
1. President Trumps response (and I am not a hardcore anti-Trumper) has been very weak. Many here are extremely disappointed.
2. The leader of the opposition is not supporting the government position and is propagating doubt far harder than is appropriate. There should always be some doubt in these situations but to immediately suggest this is a plot to frame Russia is something else. Rumours of mutiny are spreading and the majority of the Labour party directly and indirectly criticised his position during session.
Highly concerning situation. I truly hope Trump comes out with much stronger language in support of what we consider a top ally.
He did today by congratulating Putin for his election victory. Thanking a dictator for sham elections is quite strong. But then Trump is always congratulating dictators while criticizing allies.
Why is it that ex-Russian oligarchs/kgb/persona-non-grata who end up being killed are mostly in exile in the UK? While I know there is a big community, you're as far as possible while still being in Europe, why not just move to the US or the Caribbean or something?
There are other suitable parts of the world to be exiled to and maybe the US would be a safer spot for you to enjoy your wealth while being relatively more 'safe'. Granted, if the FSB(really the KGB) want you killed it doesn't matter where but UK seems like an easier opponent to push away than the troubles that might rise from US gov.
Another Russian exile, Nikolai Glushkov, died this morning in London.
It could just be a massive coincidence, however there do seem to be a lot of coincidences to write off if we are to assume that the trail of dead Russians does not lead to Russia.
So they do another hit after another high profile hit? Why?
I see far more motive to disrupt Russian elections and the Russian world cup than I see motive for taking out two Russian exiles who have been out of the country for over a decade.
Russian gangsters and other ne'er-do-wells of the 90s still carry old grievances and will continue murdering each other until they are all gone. Since Britain provided the richest of them with a playground, it is not shocking that they are continuing with their modus operandi on a smaller scale there.
As for Skripal, he allegedly blew the cover of 300 Russian agents. That is a lot of people with a personal motive. Perhaps an investigation is in order before Britain and Russia tear their relationship apart over this.
An investigation is underway and has found the Russian government culpable. Maybe the Russian government should have thought twice before poisoning a British citizen on its own soil and tearing apart their relationship with Britain?
If you were a decision maker in Russia, why use a chemical so rare that anywhere in the world it appears would directly implicate you, and also kills a subject quickly? Revenge at a level like this-- killing a high ranking KGB informant under UK protection -- would be slow and painful. It would be done using methods that weren't branded Made In Russia into the hides of the victims.
Your response is worse than tinfoil hat territory: ignorance of the history of Russia, Soviet Union, FSB and KGB, and Cold War; and a preference for beliefs over the available facts, as a result of cognitive dissonance.
RT the very same week said this is what happens to people who are traitors to Russia, count on it. Have you watched any of the recent interviews with Putin about this? He laughs when asked, and says he doesn't care while also saying the people involved weren't government people. This is a very clear message, yes we did it and so what? What are you going to do? Huh? What are you going to do? Exactly. Nothing.
Russia is risking the necessity of a disproportionate response, an unfair response, just like any playground bully. It's not enough to just punch them back. You have to wail on them, break the nose, make them bleed, and most importantly? Embarrass them. Only then do they stop.
So you can simultaneously deny it (as you can't politically take responsibility for it), and leave people in little doubt that it was actually you. The only motive I can see to kill an old ex-spy (who by now could have leaked any information) is to send a message to your current spies, that defecting will mean you and your family get killed.
The most obvious reason I can think of to kill defectors with a signature poison (like nerve agents or Polonium-210) is to send a message to anyone thinking of defecting.
I wonder if Russia has renewed interest in doing this, because of their recent antics, and politically dangerous knowledge their agents may now have.
Russia could have killed this man years ago when he was in their custody, they instead used him for a spy swap and even then took years before deciding to kill him. There are one of two things going on, Russia is trying to be a nusiance in the same way by flying jets near Britain's airspace. It can't go to full scale war because both are nuclear powers, but wants to show people not to mess with it. The way MI5 works is completely different, something will happen in Russia and no one will know it's them that retaliated. I'm surprised people haven't capitalised on grilling Corbyn on if he thinks nuclear disarmament is still a good idea.
Russia will blame everyone and use the usual whataboutism arguments, we already had Russian ambassador on CNN yesterday trying to float conspiracy theory that US done it because Russia destroyed all their chemical weapons and US has not (i kid you not)
Sanctions will be announced by western countries, but not implemented (whatever dirt they have on Trump must be good)
Everyone will forget and move on
Few years later proof will be found, but by that stage no one will care, case in hand Russian antiaircraft technology "falling" into rebel hands and shooting down a passenger plane a few years ago.
Trump may be refusing to enact new sanctions (despite passing with bipartisan support) for some “unknown” reason, but the EU doesn’t need his support to
implement any new sanctions.
And what would be the legal basis for sending them off?
If Putin did what is alleged, we kind of know he's capable of this being that he can tell the rest of the govt what to do and has in effect extrajudicial powers.
The UK, it's expected, runs its government differently.
It’s a quick, symbolic first move, likely to be followed by more severe financial consequences. I think the largest here is going to be that it lights a political fire under some asses to hasten disengagement from Russia. The UK is already consuming less Russian gas, and in general between this, meddling in elections, Crimea, and Syria, it might be thst Europe in general seeks to financially disentangle from Russia.
Isolating Russia killed it once, and the Russia of today is a shadow of its former self.
British intelligence have labeled the poison as “military grade” and “of a type developed in Russia.”
I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the alleged attack was carried out by Russia.
Novichok agents were developed in the 1970s, have been the topic of many publications, and the simple and widely-known chemical structures of any number of them could be made by chemists from any country or group willing to take the risk to make them.
If Britain is intent on dragging NATO into this, as it seems like it might be, there had better be far more compelling evidence of Russia's involvement than the weak drivel published to date.
Russia has motive, means, and opportunity. It's not an insane conclusion to draw, and it's entirely possible the decision to blame them is based on non-public information like travel records, surveillance data, etc.
I'll be frank, this whole situation seems really fishy... I don't think Russia had anything to do with this. Not with the elections and world cup within months. It makes zero sense whatsoever. But I also don't feel sorry for them because their past shady and thuggish behavior makes it easy for them to be framed for such acts.
What is it that makes this fishy to you? Why do you think Russia is not responsible? Who else would've done this? Did someone just magically have a rare nerve agent made in Russia, brought it to UK and sprayed it on an ex-Russian spy? Gosh, what a freak accident! Or if someone did it on purpose then what is his intention? Why would someone go out of his way to frame Russia? What is the goal? Purpose? Or maybe... just maybe... it is just Russia being Russia and doing shady Soviet style operations.
On the face of it this looks like a USS Liberty style false flag. It would make sense if, once again, Israel is facing enemies on its doorstep and is looking draw others into the conflict to come to their defence.
The novichok agents are not that hard to make and many labs around the world have the capability and the research licences to make it. The factors tying them to Russia would be trace chemicals, similar to how you can trace gold. It'll be easy to lie about the origin so long as no-one else has access to the chemicals to test them.
Theresa May is a very weak position politically. The industrial size gang rape cover ups that came out recently didn't help. The ongoing Brexit negotiation failures are not helping. It's only a matter of time before she's replaced. Picking a fight with Russia makes her look stronger. If you want another laugh, consider that the UK thinks it has a 'special relationship' with the US which will allow them to get a favourable trading deal afterwards.
Until I see more evidence, e.g. play by play surveillance, I will remain unconvinced.
[+] [-] gtrubetskoy|8 years ago|reply
https://www.amazon.com/State-Secrets-Insiders-Chronicle-Chem...
[+] [-] dharma1|8 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9OOLBN0j7c
Makes me wonder what kind of people have devoted their lives to developing nerve toxins like this. Horrible.
[+] [-] alva|8 years ago|reply
1. President Trumps response (and I am not a hardcore anti-Trumper) has been very weak. Many here are extremely disappointed.
2. The leader of the opposition is not supporting the government position and is propagating doubt far harder than is appropriate. There should always be some doubt in these situations but to immediately suggest this is a plot to frame Russia is something else. Rumours of mutiny are spreading and the majority of the Labour party directly and indirectly criticised his position during session.
Highly concerning situation. I truly hope Trump comes out with much stronger language in support of what we consider a top ally.
[+] [-] cmurf|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Yaggo|8 years ago|reply
I don't see fundamental difference from U.S. government killing its citizens without trial in drone strikes.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/us-justificati...
[+] [-] whb07|8 years ago|reply
There are other suitable parts of the world to be exiled to and maybe the US would be a safer spot for you to enjoy your wealth while being relatively more 'safe'. Granted, if the FSB(really the KGB) want you killed it doesn't matter where but UK seems like an easier opponent to push away than the troubles that might rise from US gov.
[+] [-] orf|8 years ago|reply
I'd posit that the UK is a lot safer (less guns, murder etc). I wouldn't rate the Caribbean equivalent of MI5 to protect you.
[+] [-] OrganicMSG|8 years ago|reply
It could just be a massive coincidence, however there do seem to be a lot of coincidences to write off if we are to assume that the trail of dead Russians does not lead to Russia.
[+] [-] swarnie_|8 years ago|reply
Berezovsky committed suicide in 2013 (Berkshire). Take that however you please.
[+] [-] hugh4life|8 years ago|reply
I see far more motive to disrupt Russian elections and the Russian world cup than I see motive for taking out two Russian exiles who have been out of the country for over a decade.
[+] [-] kirillseva|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aleyan|8 years ago|reply
As for Skripal, he allegedly blew the cover of 300 Russian agents. That is a lot of people with a personal motive. Perhaps an investigation is in order before Britain and Russia tear their relationship apart over this.
[+] [-] salmonfamine|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] davidw|8 years ago|reply
How many of them have access to nasty chemical weapons? Gangster types manage to settle scores all the time with guns, knives or whatever.
[+] [-] Dowwie|8 years ago|reply
This entire story smells of conspiracy.
[+] [-] cmurf|8 years ago|reply
RT the very same week said this is what happens to people who are traitors to Russia, count on it. Have you watched any of the recent interviews with Putin about this? He laughs when asked, and says he doesn't care while also saying the people involved weren't government people. This is a very clear message, yes we did it and so what? What are you going to do? Huh? What are you going to do? Exactly. Nothing.
And that has in fact been UK policy for over a dozen suspected hits. https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/from-russia-with-blood-1...
Russia is risking the necessity of a disproportionate response, an unfair response, just like any playground bully. It's not enough to just punch them back. You have to wail on them, break the nose, make them bleed, and most importantly? Embarrass them. Only then do they stop.
[+] [-] gnode|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emmelaich|8 years ago|reply
Being implicated yet not having any definitive evidence against you is the point of the exercise.
[+] [-] molszanski|8 years ago|reply
a) Why would Russia do that?
b) Why would they do that in a way that would finger point the blame on them?
[+] [-] gnode|8 years ago|reply
I wonder if Russia has renewed interest in doing this, because of their recent antics, and politically dangerous knowledge their agents may now have.
[+] [-] amriksohata|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fenk85|8 years ago|reply
Russia will blame everyone and use the usual whataboutism arguments, we already had Russian ambassador on CNN yesterday trying to float conspiracy theory that US done it because Russia destroyed all their chemical weapons and US has not (i kid you not)
Sanctions will be announced by western countries, but not implemented (whatever dirt they have on Trump must be good)
Everyone will forget and move on
Few years later proof will be found, but by that stage no one will care, case in hand Russian antiaircraft technology "falling" into rebel hands and shooting down a passenger plane a few years ago.
[+] [-] scottmf|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lowry|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nwah1|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] igivanov|8 years ago|reply
An the UK has no guts to do it because it collects rich crooks from all over the world to spend their money in London and prop up the UK economy.
[+] [-] liberte82|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mc32|8 years ago|reply
If Putin did what is alleged, we kind of know he's capable of this being that he can tell the rest of the govt what to do and has in effect extrajudicial powers.
The UK, it's expected, runs its government differently.
[+] [-] Erlangolem|8 years ago|reply
Isolating Russia killed it once, and the Russia of today is a shadow of its former self.
[+] [-] WHoWHo|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Panjam|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] apo|8 years ago|reply
I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the alleged attack was carried out by Russia.
Novichok agents were developed in the 1970s, have been the topic of many publications, and the simple and widely-known chemical structures of any number of them could be made by chemists from any country or group willing to take the risk to make them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent
If Britain is intent on dragging NATO into this, as it seems like it might be, there had better be far more compelling evidence of Russia's involvement than the weak drivel published to date.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/13/nerve-agent-...
Remember yellowcake?
[+] [-] refurb|8 years ago|reply
Motive can provide a strong lead.
[+] [-] ceejayoz|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WHoWHo|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] hugh4life|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ictoan|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fenk85|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jingleheimer|8 years ago|reply
The novichok agents are not that hard to make and many labs around the world have the capability and the research licences to make it. The factors tying them to Russia would be trace chemicals, similar to how you can trace gold. It'll be easy to lie about the origin so long as no-one else has access to the chemicals to test them.
Theresa May is a very weak position politically. The industrial size gang rape cover ups that came out recently didn't help. The ongoing Brexit negotiation failures are not helping. It's only a matter of time before she's replaced. Picking a fight with Russia makes her look stronger. If you want another laugh, consider that the UK thinks it has a 'special relationship' with the US which will allow them to get a favourable trading deal afterwards.
Until I see more evidence, e.g. play by play surveillance, I will remain unconvinced.