You’re Not From Here
You are a foreigner. You were a foreigner before you arrived, you are a foreigner while
you are in Japan, and when Japanese go abroad they will still refer to you as a
foreigner, ironies be damned. This cannot be understated and will be a recurring theme
in the stories to come. Never forget, you’re a foreigner. They won’t ever forget.
Well, I experience exactly the same situation and I'm a Greek living and working in the UK, so it's not something that's particular to the Japanese. It seems a sizeable chunk of most people you'll meet when you live abroad will be constitutionally unable to let go of the fact that you didn't grow up within the same national borders as each other.
I'm a mixed-race (African-American and Korean) American citizen and I found Wainzinger's (author of OP) discussion about Japanese people being careful or indifferent to the use of the term "gaijin" reminiscent of the way some of my colleagues sometimes speak about minorities or about me when I'm around.
The signals are subtle and people seem intent to not cause offense when broaching topics concerning race and class.
But it's also a reminder that I am not perceived quite the same. At best, it can be an acknowledgement and affirmation of my experience and feelings. At worst, well, in the spirit of Wainzinger's wonderful article, I'll not talk about what sometimes happens at worst. :)
I am an American born and raised in Puerto Rico living in Georgia. I am treated as an immigrant every day. You will be treated differently everywhere if you are even a bit different. Such is humanity.
> It seems a sizeable chunk of most people you'll meet when you live abroad will be constitutionally unable to let go of the fact that you didn't grow up within the same national borders as each other.
So what’s the problem with that? I’m an European, currently living in Singapore. I am a foreigner (Angmoh). People know that. I know that. Cultures clash here and there but there is no problem with it.
It's not about national borders, it's about culture. Culture is something you learn young, and it's very hard to acclimate to a new culture. You can move to a new country and be successful, have friends, etc..., but it's unlikely you'll ever truly understand that culture. Just like they can't move to Greece for a few years and understand your culture.
It's merely a statement of fact. I know this well, I speak French, have some French relatives, have a French name, travel to France all the time, and while I can get on, can have a great time and have made friends in France, I'm not French (I'm Canadian) and never will be. People there still treat me great, I know a lot about their culture, but I don't know their culture, just like they don't know Canadian culture.
Japan is a very rigid, closed and unique culture. Their country is extremely developed (could even say over-developed), and I have no doubt that growing up there, living from birth to death in that society marks you in a way that living there for 10 years won't.
There's a reason Canadians emphasize diversity over assimilation, because complete assimilation is impossible. You can't simply ignore one's upbringing and life experience and pretend we all had the same experiences.
I will add my anecdote. I am an American living in Thailand (many of them on HN from what I can tell). I have lived here for more than 10 years, speak Thai, have a family, etc. But I am definitely a foreigner and always will be. In fact, it is institutionalized by the Thai government that foreigners will be treated as such. For example, I pay 10 times the Thai price to enter a national park. And many, many private businesses take their cue from that policy and charge higher prices for anyone who does not look Thai. A constant reminder that you are a foreigner and always will be.
Do you have some examples? I'm in the UK and work for a small company that hires a lot of people from all over, and I'd like to think I'm not unintentionally doing the same thing.
It's really hard to overstate just how bloated emails are in Japanese. They seem to follow a very strict script. Once you learn the key words, it's easy to write and understand, but it's so much fluff for so little meaning. I've gotten dozens of lines from single emails just asking me about confirming a skype interview date, while any normal English message would literally be no more than, "Sure, let's talk at X:XX PM. Contact us beforehand if you have any troubles."
There are also small details that you will learn the first time doing it wrong.
For example, when contacting with someone outside of the company, you would NEVER refer to anyone in the same company as you with -san honorific (Mr./Ms.) via email even in maximum formality mode, e.g. "I'll forward this to Tanaka-san, head of sales" may be considered rude. Instead, you will have to skip -san, as in "I'll forward this to Tanaka, head of sales."
These small details are so subtle and there's a lot of them. Many people don't really mind if you use it wrong, but some do, so you have to always be cautious with.
I consulted for a Vietnamese tech company some years ago and was surprised to see that most internal emails among top management (most of whom had attended university overseas) were in English, rather than Vietnamese.
The reason? Written Vietnamese is too formal, and they prefer English for getting to the point quickly.
I read his sample bloated email and found it interesting that they are writing it in the exact same way a (US) business would write a customer service email.
Companies do this via E-Mail? Where I work you send someone a Google Calendar invite and they click "yes" or "no", and they can see if you have a free spot in your schedule beforehand, so it rarely goes wrong.
I think you should try working at a smaller company. I've also been an engineer in Japan for a while and found startups a lot easier to deal with than mid-sized or larger companies. For example, you almost never have to send e-mails because everything is over Slack and surprisingly casual. Working with other teams is easy because there are only a small amount of engineers and everyone knows each other. Google Docs instead of Excel so you don't have to worry about SHIFT-JIS. Go somewhere without middle management where you work directly under the CTO or at most one other guy and you'll see less meetings. Of course, you'll still see some of the classic Japanese bureaucracy, but nothing compared to the bigger places.
My main gripe with Japanese companies is that they simply don't pay as well as American ones do.
> My main gripe with Japanese companies is that they simply don't pay as well as American ones do.
Fair, but Tokyo can be much, much cheaper than SF or NYC (in my personal experience, rent alone is up to a 2-3x difference. Same with dining out - a 1500¥ dinner easily runs you $30-40 with tip in SF).
I don't know why this is always made a topic, but I never felt offended by "gaijin" or the Chinese counterpart "laowai". No big deal.
However I also don't think that "they don't think it's offensive" has any relevance. Some people think the N-word is not offensive. It still is. Some men don't think calling a female colleague "babe" is offensive. It still is.
I lived in China for more than 8 years. I found laowai amusing when I was in the transient long term vacation mindset when I first arrived. But after being there long enough to become fluent, marry a local, and deal with difficult situations unique to foreigners, I did find a bit of offense in the term. Not strong enough to say anything. But the subtext I heard in the term from some people was to intentionally keep this uncultured foreigner at arms length, and make sure he knows he will never fully integrate.
The word is a pun, and also means "always outside". This secondary meaning is not lost on Chinese people.
I spent a year abroad studying in Japan with a group of 10 westerners. At the beginning of the year some people were apprehensive when they learned about the word 'gaijin'. By the end of the year every member of the group used 'gaijin' in their regular conversation.
This was far outside of Tokyo and seeing a 'gaijin' was a genuinely rare occurrence. More than anything the word seems to fit a real communicative need. "I had an interaction with someone that was different from the norm because they did not look Japanese" is quite a mouthful and invoking the word 'gaijin' starts to happen quite naturally.
My biggest problem with the word is that it is used sloppily. It conflates race, culture, language and nationality and assumes a kind of all or nothing approach to them. My black student who was born and raised in Japan fulfilled 3 out of those 4 categories but would be considered gaijin everywhere he went.
I think the speaker's intent and beliefs about the meanings of the words they're using is relevant. Context is everything in language.
I think the issue that sort of overlaps what you are talking about is sometimes when people assert things "aren't offensive", what they really mean is that they think they should be free to use derogatory language without others being upset.
When Japanese friends refer to me as gaijin, I never feel offended. When some teen punk at a metro station in Tokyo shoved me and yelled "GAIJIN" in my ear, somehow it upset me. Go figure.
Sorry to ask for your time, but if it is possible for you to let me know, I would love to read about a Japanese engineer living in the US. Are you aware of any related articles or response articles on this topic? I understand that it may be an inconvenience to tell me about these articles, but your cooperation is greatly appreciated in this matter.
I don't think you'll get a reply to this because this article wasn't posted to Hacker News by its original author, and I don't think the original author is participating in this comment thread at all. You might want to find a different way of contacting the author.
I think people put too much meaning in Japanese set phrases, imagining them to have their literal meaning when that is not what they actually mean. The author provides this transcript:
Me: This is clearly broken!
Tanaka: Yes, you’re right.
M: Shouldn’t we do something about this?
T: Nothing can be done.
M: This is easily patchable!
T: I’m sorry.
M: Who’s responsible for this code?
T: Team X.
M: Somebody on our team should talk to them.
T: Yes, you’re right.
M: Well, can I talk to them?
T: Ah, it’s not impossible.
M: Does that mean I can?
T: Who knows.
M: …
I've had this conversation in English with American coworkers more times than I can remember:
A: This is clearly broken!
B: Yeah....
A: Shouldn't we do something about this?
B: It's not a priority.
A: This is easily patchable!
B: I have to work on Project X now, they've been bugging me about it for months and their manager is getting mad at _me_ now.
A: Who's responsible for this code?
B: Team X.
A: Somebody on our team should talk to them.
B: I already have 8 meetings this week, I don't have time.
A: Can I talk to them?
B: They never answer my email.
A: I'll email them.
B: Good luck!
It all boils down to the same issue: the person you're conversing with doesn't consider the matter as urgent as you. The words used are different but the message is the same: "meh". This isn't a Japanese thing or an American thing... it's a people thing. And honestly, a lot of times, they're right.
- Meeting, a lot of meeting, on average 2 hours a day.
- Scrum is also meeting heavy, for a 5 days Sprint, the first 3 days is to write the document, splitting tasks into smaller subtasks (so that anyone can code for it), the rest 2 days are for actual coding.
- It's very hard to track responsibility due to 'group think' - HoRenSo.
- Disputes aren't resolved completely but just shoved under the rug. The one who tries to pursue it will be alienated. They have a proverb: "The nails that stick out shall be hammered".
- A lot of engineers don't have formal computer education. But they make up for that by putting a lot of effort in learning how to code, so they can catch up with their peer in one or two years. For example, one programmer was working as a system admin for 2 years, and before that she studied marketing in university.
- Community events are mostly for middle aged people, not students or young one.
Overall I think it's interesting to work in a Japanese company, there are a lot to learn from them.
>The thinking goes, if everyone is involved in the decision-making process, then when something inevitably goes wrong, there’s no individual person to blame! Problem solved.
This is _exactly_ how life in the US Govt. IT sectors go.
A co-worker gave me a great phrase for this: Fix the blame. I've run into a bunch of companies that spend far more time fixing the blame, then actually fixing the problem. Good luck with that business model.
Bit off-topic but I don't think the "Cultural Differences" dismissals are unique to Japan; One of my friends from the US will often try to explain disagreements away with "must be different over there" and other similar statements. It's endlessly infuriating.
Apart from the specific Japanese language specifics, I didn't read anything that I wouldn't expect in more than half of the American companies that I encounter outside of SV. There may be differences in how prevalent these things are, but I can't really use this account to draw conclusions about that.
I've noticed their thing about paper before. Oddly, it was in videos of Japanese offices during earthquakes, where my concern was that people were going to get hurt by all the falling binders and documents that were coming off the bookcases.
Funny thing, although the PDCA process is always popularly related to the Toyota Production System, apparently it was created by Deming, "father of modern quality control", who divulgated it through Japan.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDCA
Got a design meeting? Print high-quality printouts of the mockup for every person in the room. Then mark them up with pens, make the changes digitally, and reprint everything and repeat.
I work in a design studio in Silicon Valley. We do this, and it is extremely common in any design studio. Essentially, there is simply no digital device that matches the ease of annotation, the resolution, and the size compared to printing on a 11x17 piece of paper. You can put them up on the wall for everybody to see, and have a 10 meter wall covered in comps if that's what you need... impossible to do with any digital tool.
You wouldn't be seen as a "perpetual foreigner" (gaijin) like that, and American culture is much more lenient on foreigners carrying along their old customs compared to in Japan. Overall I'd expect an easier time, particularly in that it's always achievable to be seen as American (more in some areas than others, especially SV, not to say the US doesn't have any problems with discrimination), but in Japan a foreigner or even foreign-looking native is never truly accepted as Japanese, as pointed out here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16612178
A little late, but I think one of the most important distinctions between "otherness" in a place like Tokyo versus a place like the US is the fact that you can "become" an American in at least one sense if not completely, but you can basically never be Japanese in almost any sense.
It's always felt that America is the kind of place that once you've put in your 6 years (I think it's 6 now) on the way to citizenship (or however you get your citizenship), and are sworn in/become a citizen, the next person that implies you're un-american you're free to punch in the face (most of the time not not literally). People may imply it, but the way the country is built/the culture is structured is at least supposed to imply that once you choose to join "Team America" so-to-speak, you're a team-member and that's that. America struggles with the divisions and history between the cultures/races within it, but I think that's natural, sometimes healthy, and to some degree inevitable -- there's no way you're going to have lots of cultures mix without conflict/racism. So if you start with the preconception that friction is a 100% certainty, the question is whether you can see it, and whether the culture is one where you can freely discuss it or not.
Japan on the other hand, is like 95%+ Japanese last I checked -- there just isn't enough mixing at any sort of scale to widen the idea of what a Japanese person is, and much of the segregation is intentional (which is fine by me). Even Japanese people who go abroad for a long time as children and return are treated differently, and have to be careful when re-entering society, there just isn't any hope of melting into the society in any reasonable sense for someone who is in actuality 100% gaijin (and looks nothing like a japanese person).
While I haven't lived in the UK, I imagine it's the same, they seem to have a melting pot culture very similar to the US in this sense, in some ways they seem even better mixed than the US -- I feel like I see less overt racism there.
I don't think this phenomenon is limited to Japan of course, just happens to be on topic right now -- I imagine being a white person in Nigeria or some other prosperous African country would be a somewhat similar situation as far as otherness goes.
Once you reach certain good level of Japanese mastery, suddenly those phrases and behaviors you considered very polite and which deeply impressed you, turn out to be jokes, fun Japanese had with you. Or talk to Japanese escapees to Europe that work for non-Japanese companies and hence can have some life for an explanation.
[+] [-] YeGoblynQueenne|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mistersquid|8 years ago|reply
The signals are subtle and people seem intent to not cause offense when broaching topics concerning race and class.
But it's also a reminder that I am not perceived quite the same. At best, it can be an acknowledgement and affirmation of my experience and feelings. At worst, well, in the spirit of Wainzinger's wonderful article, I'll not talk about what sometimes happens at worst. :)
[+] [-] pryelluw|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Jdam|8 years ago|reply
So what’s the problem with that? I’m an European, currently living in Singapore. I am a foreigner (Angmoh). People know that. I know that. Cultures clash here and there but there is no problem with it.
[+] [-] Mikeb85|8 years ago|reply
It's merely a statement of fact. I know this well, I speak French, have some French relatives, have a French name, travel to France all the time, and while I can get on, can have a great time and have made friends in France, I'm not French (I'm Canadian) and never will be. People there still treat me great, I know a lot about their culture, but I don't know their culture, just like they don't know Canadian culture.
Japan is a very rigid, closed and unique culture. Their country is extremely developed (could even say over-developed), and I have no doubt that growing up there, living from birth to death in that society marks you in a way that living there for 10 years won't.
There's a reason Canadians emphasize diversity over assimilation, because complete assimilation is impossible. You can't simply ignore one's upbringing and life experience and pretend we all had the same experiences.
[+] [-] geomark|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jaclaz|8 years ago|reply
JFYI, a "classic":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_be_an_Alien
[+] [-] Accacin|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fiblye|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sirn|8 years ago|reply
For example, when contacting with someone outside of the company, you would NEVER refer to anyone in the same company as you with -san honorific (Mr./Ms.) via email even in maximum formality mode, e.g. "I'll forward this to Tanaka-san, head of sales" may be considered rude. Instead, you will have to skip -san, as in "I'll forward this to Tanaka, head of sales."
These small details are so subtle and there's a lot of them. Many people don't really mind if you use it wrong, but some do, so you have to always be cautious with.
[+] [-] ilamont|8 years ago|reply
The reason? Written Vietnamese is too formal, and they prefer English for getting to the point quickly.
[+] [-] oliverlundquist|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chrischen|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] avar|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grose|8 years ago|reply
My main gripe with Japanese companies is that they simply don't pay as well as American ones do.
[+] [-] GuiA|8 years ago|reply
Fair, but Tokyo can be much, much cheaper than SF or NYC (in my personal experience, rent alone is up to a 2-3x difference. Same with dining out - a 1500¥ dinner easily runs you $30-40 with tip in SF).
[+] [-] erikb|8 years ago|reply
However I also don't think that "they don't think it's offensive" has any relevance. Some people think the N-word is not offensive. It still is. Some men don't think calling a female colleague "babe" is offensive. It still is.
[+] [-] colordrops|8 years ago|reply
The word is a pun, and also means "always outside". This secondary meaning is not lost on Chinese people.
[+] [-] matthewrudy|8 years ago|reply
The Cantonese "gweilo" (lit. "monster/ghost person") and Taiwanese "adoga" (lit. "big nose") are more clearly offensive in literal meaning.
Both are extremely casual, and in most cases no ill will is intended.
But for each I've encountered situations where it wasn't so pleasant.
Notably once in a remote guangdong town, some people stopped on a motorbike, pointed at me and said "Gweilo" before riding off laughing.
Equally at a good friends wedding, his mum kept referring to me as "adoga" in the 3rd person.
"Adoga comes from England" rather than using my name, which she'd known for the past 3 or so years.
In China, I can't think of a specific situation where I was offended by the use of "laowai".
[+] [-] laurieg|8 years ago|reply
This was far outside of Tokyo and seeing a 'gaijin' was a genuinely rare occurrence. More than anything the word seems to fit a real communicative need. "I had an interaction with someone that was different from the norm because they did not look Japanese" is quite a mouthful and invoking the word 'gaijin' starts to happen quite naturally.
My biggest problem with the word is that it is used sloppily. It conflates race, culture, language and nationality and assumes a kind of all or nothing approach to them. My black student who was born and raised in Japan fulfilled 3 out of those 4 categories but would be considered gaijin everywhere he went.
[+] [-] bootlooped|8 years ago|reply
I think the issue that sort of overlaps what you are talking about is sometimes when people assert things "aren't offensive", what they really mean is that they think they should be free to use derogatory language without others being upset.
[+] [-] GuiA|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] MacroChip|8 years ago|reply
Sorry to ask for your time, but if it is possible for you to let me know, I would love to read about a Japanese engineer living in the US. Are you aware of any related articles or response articles on this topic? I understand that it may be an inconvenience to tell me about these articles, but your cooperation is greatly appreciated in this matter.
Apologies and thanks,
Thien, Chip
[+] [-] schoen|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jrockway|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] coconut_crab|8 years ago|reply
- Meeting, a lot of meeting, on average 2 hours a day.
- Scrum is also meeting heavy, for a 5 days Sprint, the first 3 days is to write the document, splitting tasks into smaller subtasks (so that anyone can code for it), the rest 2 days are for actual coding.
- It's very hard to track responsibility due to 'group think' - HoRenSo.
- Disputes aren't resolved completely but just shoved under the rug. The one who tries to pursue it will be alienated. They have a proverb: "The nails that stick out shall be hammered".
- A lot of engineers don't have formal computer education. But they make up for that by putting a lot of effort in learning how to code, so they can catch up with their peer in one or two years. For example, one programmer was working as a system admin for 2 years, and before that she studied marketing in university.
- Community events are mostly for middle aged people, not students or young one.
Overall I think it's interesting to work in a Japanese company, there are a lot to learn from them.
EDIT: Format
[+] [-] bamboozled|8 years ago|reply
The majority of “engineers” I’ve worked with (including the best) don’t have computer science degrees.
[+] [-] erric|8 years ago|reply
This is _exactly_ how life in the US Govt. IT sectors go.
[+] [-] mitchell_h|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arctice|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] subway|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] singlow|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chiph|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tecleandor|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gramie|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] erikb|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GuiA|8 years ago|reply
I work in a design studio in Silicon Valley. We do this, and it is extremely common in any design studio. Essentially, there is simply no digital device that matches the ease of annotation, the resolution, and the size compared to printing on a 11x17 piece of paper. You can put them up on the wall for everybody to see, and have a 10 meter wall covered in comps if that's what you need... impossible to do with any digital tool.
[+] [-] dreit1|8 years ago|reply
Let’s discuss this every week, and then not take any actual action
[+] [-] candybar|8 years ago|reply
Edit: even some of the other stuff seems to be more about tech vs non-tech, as opposed to Japan vs US.
[+] [-] obblekk|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] twic|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jimmaswell|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hardwaresofton|8 years ago|reply
It's always felt that America is the kind of place that once you've put in your 6 years (I think it's 6 now) on the way to citizenship (or however you get your citizenship), and are sworn in/become a citizen, the next person that implies you're un-american you're free to punch in the face (most of the time not not literally). People may imply it, but the way the country is built/the culture is structured is at least supposed to imply that once you choose to join "Team America" so-to-speak, you're a team-member and that's that. America struggles with the divisions and history between the cultures/races within it, but I think that's natural, sometimes healthy, and to some degree inevitable -- there's no way you're going to have lots of cultures mix without conflict/racism. So if you start with the preconception that friction is a 100% certainty, the question is whether you can see it, and whether the culture is one where you can freely discuss it or not.
Japan on the other hand, is like 95%+ Japanese last I checked -- there just isn't enough mixing at any sort of scale to widen the idea of what a Japanese person is, and much of the segregation is intentional (which is fine by me). Even Japanese people who go abroad for a long time as children and return are treated differently, and have to be careful when re-entering society, there just isn't any hope of melting into the society in any reasonable sense for someone who is in actuality 100% gaijin (and looks nothing like a japanese person).
While I haven't lived in the UK, I imagine it's the same, they seem to have a melting pot culture very similar to the US in this sense, in some ways they seem even better mixed than the US -- I feel like I see less overt racism there.
I don't think this phenomenon is limited to Japan of course, just happens to be on topic right now -- I imagine being a white person in Nigeria or some other prosperous African country would be a somewhat similar situation as far as otherness goes.
[+] [-] toephu2|8 years ago|reply
What are 'gargles'?
[+] [-] checkroth|8 years ago|reply
I've also gotten "How many colors does a rainbow have in your country?" which is just beyond me
[+] [-] bitL|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maxxxxx|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]