I love to travel, meet other people, experience different cultures, and widen my horizons. For those reasons alone, I'd definitely advocate at least doing a lot of traveling to lots of different countries, and (if possible) trying to live in those countries you like best.
That said, I've found that living in other countries does have its down sides. The one that's bothered me most is being treated like a second-class citizen. In the countries I've been to, I've often felt like an outsider, or a cash machine, or a target. If you don't speak the language, you're usually treated even worse.
Those experiences have really given me a much stronger sense of empathy for how immigrants and other foreigners are treated in my own country, but has also made living in my own country feel a lot safer and more desirable.
I haven't given up on travel, and still like to do so to expand my horizons and experience places that are really different, but I really think twice about just jumping up and permanently moving somewhere else. Most expats can't take it long-term, and wind up moving back after a while. It's a rare breed who can move to a radically different country and remain -- unless, of course, they feel they have no other choice.
Some countries are worse in this respect than others. I've lived in lots of different places, I've never really felt much of an outsider because (1) I try hard to learn as much of the local language that I can, (2) I try to connect to the locals rather than to my fellow country men and (3) I try really hard to be nice to people and help where I can. Having some skills will make this much quicker. Even so, there are definitely many levels of inclusion and you'll likely never be seen as a local but that's pretty much expected since after all you're not.
In order of feeling accepted:
- Canada
- United States
- Poland
- Romania
Those are the countries where I've spent more than just a few months cumulatively, though I never actually had a permanent residence in the United States (I did have an American "Inc" and spent lots of time there). Even to this day I have more friends abroad than in the country I was born in (and where I live).
And moving back here was a mixed bag, for one the Canadian paperwork took forever (we really felt that Canadian government was taking advantage of us and stringing us along), for another there was serious concern about the quality of the education in the place where we lived.
As long as you think of yourself as an 'expat' rather than as an 'immigrant' you're on the wrong track.
Interestingly, I see a lot of parallels between the feelings you have described and how people who are opposed to immigration describe their position. Basically, they want the place they call home to remain the way it is, because it’s comfortable and they’re worried that mass immigration will change that (or has already changed that).
People tend to be irrational about things and this is a good illustration. As broken and expensive as US healthcare is, you’re making 3x the money here, and out of pocket maximums do kick in eventually. And the US is not the top country by far, even among developed ones, in number of mass murder victims per 100000 population. You’re vastly more likely to drown in your backyard pool than be a victim of a mass shooting in the US. Majority of firearm deaths are suicides. Majority of homicides are concentrated in crime / gang activity hubs like Detroit, Chicago, and a few others. Firearm homicide has been trending downward for decades, even if you take the crime hubs into account. IOW if you don’t live in one of the well known “bad” places, your chance of dying from a firearm wound is very low indeed.
Out of pocket maximums kick in eventually, unless you accidentally go to an out-of network provider, unless you lose your job and therefore your insurance, unless your insurance decides that a drug you need isn't covered, etc., etc., etc.
> As broken and expensive as US healthcare is, you’re making 3x the money here
It's not a matter of the expected values, it's a matter of their distribution. The fact that you're making 3x as much doesn't change the fact that if you're unlucky for whatever reason you'll be in debt for the rest of your life.
We moved from France back to the US (Miami, specifically) in the last year. Going back to France has come up a lot in our household. Salaries are definitely higher here but once I deduct the major expenses (healthcare, childcare, healthy foods) it comes out to be only 10% bump salary wise.
In our travels the one thing we have found is that medical tourism is becoming a better known option to Americans. I've met doctors and surgeons who keep a small office in Miami for consultation but the operations are done in Colombia, Brazil or Mexico.
It's funny that Florida has such a pristine reputation internationally. I'm from the Southern US, and my view of Florida is that it's where 80% of the crazies in the US live.
Anytime I see a batsh*t crazy headline? Florida. Check the articles you see from now on and you'll notice a pattern.
So to all the internationals: if you like the US but not its extremes, definitely don't move to Florida.
Florida has embraced open records laws, while other US jurisdictions have not - certainly not to the same extent.
A significant portion of your observation can likely be attributed to reporting bias: it's easy/cheap for a journalist to browse the website of their local Florida police department. In another jurisdiction, that same story might involve: hiring an investigative journalist, spending 3 months, and fighting to have a FOIA request honoured.
Your ideas about Florida are a common misconception in America. The reason you see all the wacky "Florida Man" news is not due to Floridians being crazier than the rest of America. It is because of their local government disclosure laws:
I moved from London to Lisbon and then to Brazil. I get the same kinda "wtf" reaction from Brazilians. The bottom line is, with all that's wrong in Brazil and given my circumstances and my remote well paid job, I'm a lot happier living here than anywhere else in the world. I truly love this place.
I don't think one needs to try to make a place work for them. Sure you can try and adapt. But ultimately most people reading this have the option to live elsewhere. Don't be afraid to take the chance.
Well paid US job? Could you please provide ball park estimate and what exactly do you do. Also how do you deal with currency exchange and are yoy a native brazzilian speaker? I've been contemplating moving to south america as well.
I'm thinking of moving from Brazil to Portugal. Is there anything special you didn't like in Lisbon? Was is too similar to London and you were looking for something different? Thanks
Three of my friends moved in the other direction (all of them Americans by birth), one with his family in tow.
Having options is good, and it is fairly easy for American entrepreneurs to move to Europe (Germany works if you have enough backing and a good plan) or back again if they decide that's what is best for them.
Healthcare is definitely a factor and so is the climate but when you're young and working hard neither of those will likely move the needle much (but healthcare is a bit of a lottery in the longer term).
The paranoia angle wouldn't factor in for most people, though I can see how if you are prone to that that it will affect you.
If you're an entrepreneur and you wish to address the largest single market on the planet (one language, one currency) with your start-up the USA is probably the place to be if you can get in in an easy way. If not then the EU is likely your best bet but it will be substantially harder to address the EU market than the American one. You might even get a neat balance if you lived in Europe but treated your start-up like an American entity from day one.
I sadly have to agree with you. Regardless of how much we (Europeans) unify the law, the language barrier will still be there for a long time :(
Having said that, in many cases language is not that big of an issue - for example, if you're doing software as a service, or mobile apps, doing them in english, gives you access to the global market from the day one.
An interesting case is Fintech/Crypto - over there it makes a big difference where you begin, US and EU legal/financial systems being so different. In US, you have the advantage of the language uniformity, but in EU, arguably, the law is much more uniform between the countries - if you get a financial license to run in one of the countries, it allows you to operate in all of them. Also, the laws are uniform, although their execution isn't.
Where US really shines is anything physical (e.g. consumer electronics), and anything local (AirBnB, Meetup.com, and so on) - with these, people expect the service to be in their local language, but I feel it's less and less every year.
One of my college classmates moved about 15 years ago from working for NASA to Europe to work for ESA, I think the decision process is different for African Americans, one has to think about how one or one's child is more likely to be killed by a policeman than a terrorist in the United States (when the President cites terrorism as some existential threat to be addressed by national immigration policies versus no action on police), no matter what your status is, it was not that different for James Baldwin or Richard Wright than it is today.
I moved away from Las Vegas for many of the same reasons as OP:
The Heat:
While LV heat is much dryer than Florida's, I hope to never live where it gets so hot ever again. I would push myself to fight the heat and be outside in spite of it, but there's only so much fight.
The Pollution:
Only a few, select zip codes have decent air quality in LV. Where I worked, on the strip, mixed disgusting air quality with the highest heat in the valley.
Everywhere you go the sun will beat down on you, the air will offer no comfort, and there will be no shade.
The Violence:
I lived in a fine apartment in a fine area (with mansions and golf courses nearby). The cops nonetheless shot and killed the occupant in the apartment immediately above me one night - while I was in my apartment downstairs. He deserved it, too, but that doesn't change my perception of the violence in LV. A woman was hit and killed by a car just outside of the complex one weekend. I worked on the strip the night of the Oct 1 shooting massacre, too. But that's just the tip of the violence problem in LV. People treat one another with so much contempt and hostility in everyday life there. They will actually come up to you, tell you they do not like you, and that they will do everything they can to destroy you. And they will do it often. You will probably have never met this person before their threat, and have done nothing to earn their hate.
Healthcare:
I had mixed experiences with doctors there. I had doctors tell me they did not believe I had the symptoms I described - because I'm a guy. But I also finally got a chronic condition under control with a doctor there, too. Of course, that doctor will still, to this day, suggest we stop treatment at the slightest misstatement from me. Financially though, I once had a doctor send my bill to collections before ever actually billing me. Within days of treatment his collections agency contacted me - as though I were a problem patient. Then, years back, a gastroenterologist was found sharing medical supplies between patients. I forget the numbers, but he gave many people HIV/hepatitis/etc that way.
Options:
It took a long time after the great recession for LV to recover. I'm sure it will not fare well during the next recession.
I know we’re not anywhere near this being a pressing concern, but Pax Americana is coming to an end and I think there’s something to be said for America’s physical location on the globe and relationship with it’s two neighbors. There have been lots of conflagrations in Europe in the time since the American civil war 150 years ago, but there have been essentially none in America. Meanwhile, the raw ingredients of the terrors of the 20th century still exist in Europe.
I move from Australia to Iceland. Icelanders always go "what the hell man? why would you do that?" when they find out.
It's complicated. Broadly speaking, it's an even split between:
1. Icelands software industry being considerably more vibrant than Australias, which is really sad for Aus.
2. Australias government increasingly intervening directly in it's citizens lives whether they like it or not. The Icelandic government is pretty hands off, þetta reddast etc.
3. Icelanders have no idea what the word "heat" really means. They've never under-clocked their computers to keep them stable during summer. I'll take Icelandic winter over Australia summer any day of the week.
It's been hard, but I wouldn't take back my decision, no way. Any one of those reasons is good enough for me.
We're living in the first age in human history where you can really just pick up all your shit and straight up move to the opposite side of the planet, no dramas. I paid ~$8,000AUD to some dudes, they rocked up at my place with a truck full of boxes and paper and wrapped up literally the entire house and drove off. Three months later some other dudes showed up at my new place in Reykjavik and unboxed everything for me. 8k isn't nothing, but it's not unreachable either, and I also paid for the full service move. Easiest move I ever did, but you could probably do it for half the price if you packed yourself.
Out of the whole planet, what're the odds that you were born in the place that suits you best? It's definitely worth shopping around.
I can't offer any direct comparison with Iceland, but the software scene in Australia has been improving rapidly the last couple of years - particularly with US visa laws making it worse for immigrants wanting to move there.
To offer some data for Sydney, Google has of course been around a while, Google Maps is based out of Australia. Atlassian is hiring as much as ever. Amazon has been growing at a rapid clip here in Sydney (I wish I could disclose numbers publicly!) and we have offices in Melbourne and Brisbane, and Microsoft is in the process of opening a dev centre in Sydney right now as well. Still a long ways to go but it's much better than even a few years ago.
With all of the options he had he decided to move to ex-soviet republic... Let's see how long you'll manage to stay there before ludicrous levels of corruption at all levels of society start making expensive healthcare in the US seem insignificant in comparison. I say this as Ukrainian/Armenian who was born and lived in the USSR and seen my father, who's a brilliant engineer, stagnate in the professional culture that pushed him aside because of his ethnicity or because he became a threat to some old bastard who's been warming his seat for 40 years instead of retiring.
The Ukraine, Armenia, and USSR != Estonia. Estonia is regularly ranked as one of the least corrupt countries in the world, on par with Japan: https://www.transparency.org/country/EST , among the many other superlatives you can find listed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia . (If he's going to worry about something, I would suggest that since he worries about such rare events as movie theater shootings, he ought to worry a lot more about Russia invading Estonia...)
See, this is a weird ill-informed argument to make.. Estonia is ranked by most observers as having levels or corruption roughly equivalent to other developed western democracies.
Estonia has quickly grown to be a very technological advanced country. I had several interviews within a week when I started applying, and I don't regret my decision.
Who knows, it may change in a few years, but even if it does, I can always get up and move again.
This is great, but... Sunlight. I couldn't live in Estonia for a long time. I need sunlight. Plenty of sunlight. I live in San Francisco, where the weather is great. I am originally from Italy, where the weather is quite good especially in the center/south.
I would love to live in Estonia, if not for the weather, and the loooong winters.
What's it like in Tallin? I'm thinking of going to study there after I'm finished with my first degree? I like what they're doing to encourage startups etc. Can you speak Estonian?
I’ve thought this for a long time, but the insanity of the US healthcare system makes is such that it erases the wage differences between here and countries with national healthcare systems for a huge percentage of the population long term.
You’re essentially gambling that you won’t be struck by a finance destroying health crisis for a long enough time that you’ll come out ahead overall. But when you think about the fact that 35-40% of people develop cancer in their lifetimes, or the “financial death by a thousand procedures” described in the post, that seems unlikely, at least for a good portion of people.
[+] [-] pmoriarty|8 years ago|reply
That said, I've found that living in other countries does have its down sides. The one that's bothered me most is being treated like a second-class citizen. In the countries I've been to, I've often felt like an outsider, or a cash machine, or a target. If you don't speak the language, you're usually treated even worse.
Those experiences have really given me a much stronger sense of empathy for how immigrants and other foreigners are treated in my own country, but has also made living in my own country feel a lot safer and more desirable.
I haven't given up on travel, and still like to do so to expand my horizons and experience places that are really different, but I really think twice about just jumping up and permanently moving somewhere else. Most expats can't take it long-term, and wind up moving back after a while. It's a rare breed who can move to a radically different country and remain -- unless, of course, they feel they have no other choice.
[+] [-] jacquesm|8 years ago|reply
In order of feeling accepted:
- Canada
- United States
- Poland
- Romania
Those are the countries where I've spent more than just a few months cumulatively, though I never actually had a permanent residence in the United States (I did have an American "Inc" and spent lots of time there). Even to this day I have more friends abroad than in the country I was born in (and where I live).
And moving back here was a mixed bag, for one the Canadian paperwork took forever (we really felt that Canadian government was taking advantage of us and stringing us along), for another there was serious concern about the quality of the education in the place where we lived.
As long as you think of yourself as an 'expat' rather than as an 'immigrant' you're on the wrong track.
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] toasterlovin|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway84742|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pranjalv123|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fwdpropaganda|8 years ago|reply
It's not a matter of the expected values, it's a matter of their distribution. The fact that you're making 3x as much doesn't change the fact that if you're unlucky for whatever reason you'll be in debt for the rest of your life.
[+] [-] lemming|8 years ago|reply
Snopes describes the report you're probably talking about as "extremely misleading": https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/united-states-lower-death-...
[+] [-] ilovecars2|8 years ago|reply
On a side note, the NHS crisis worries me a lot, but I’m thinking it must be better than no public health care at all, right?
[+] [-] yardie|8 years ago|reply
In our travels the one thing we have found is that medical tourism is becoming a better known option to Americans. I've met doctors and surgeons who keep a small office in Miami for consultation but the operations are done in Colombia, Brazil or Mexico.
[+] [-] ianai|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ukulele|8 years ago|reply
Anytime I see a batsh*t crazy headline? Florida. Check the articles you see from now on and you'll notice a pattern.
So to all the internationals: if you like the US but not its extremes, definitely don't move to Florida.
[+] [-] DanielDent|8 years ago|reply
A significant portion of your observation can likely be attributed to reporting bias: it's easy/cheap for a journalist to browse the website of their local Florida police department. In another jurisdiction, that same story might involve: hiring an investigative journalist, spending 3 months, and fighting to have a FOIA request honoured.
[+] [-] macroexpanse|8 years ago|reply
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/how-floridas-proud-open-go...
[+] [-] VikingCoder|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yorby|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] wyclif|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mavdi|8 years ago|reply
I don't think one needs to try to make a place work for them. Sure you can try and adapt. But ultimately most people reading this have the option to live elsewhere. Don't be afraid to take the chance.
[+] [-] jotm|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dapreja|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] slig|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|8 years ago|reply
Having options is good, and it is fairly easy for American entrepreneurs to move to Europe (Germany works if you have enough backing and a good plan) or back again if they decide that's what is best for them.
Healthcare is definitely a factor and so is the climate but when you're young and working hard neither of those will likely move the needle much (but healthcare is a bit of a lottery in the longer term).
The paranoia angle wouldn't factor in for most people, though I can see how if you are prone to that that it will affect you.
If you're an entrepreneur and you wish to address the largest single market on the planet (one language, one currency) with your start-up the USA is probably the place to be if you can get in in an easy way. If not then the EU is likely your best bet but it will be substantially harder to address the EU market than the American one. You might even get a neat balance if you lived in Europe but treated your start-up like an American entity from day one.
[+] [-] kolinko|8 years ago|reply
Having said that, in many cases language is not that big of an issue - for example, if you're doing software as a service, or mobile apps, doing them in english, gives you access to the global market from the day one.
An interesting case is Fintech/Crypto - over there it makes a big difference where you begin, US and EU legal/financial systems being so different. In US, you have the advantage of the language uniformity, but in EU, arguably, the law is much more uniform between the countries - if you get a financial license to run in one of the countries, it allows you to operate in all of them. Also, the laws are uniform, although their execution isn't.
Where US really shines is anything physical (e.g. consumer electronics), and anything local (AirBnB, Meetup.com, and so on) - with these, people expect the service to be in their local language, but I feel it's less and less every year.
[+] [-] stevenwoo|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ianai|8 years ago|reply
The Heat: While LV heat is much dryer than Florida's, I hope to never live where it gets so hot ever again. I would push myself to fight the heat and be outside in spite of it, but there's only so much fight.
The Pollution: Only a few, select zip codes have decent air quality in LV. Where I worked, on the strip, mixed disgusting air quality with the highest heat in the valley.
Everywhere you go the sun will beat down on you, the air will offer no comfort, and there will be no shade.
The Violence: I lived in a fine apartment in a fine area (with mansions and golf courses nearby). The cops nonetheless shot and killed the occupant in the apartment immediately above me one night - while I was in my apartment downstairs. He deserved it, too, but that doesn't change my perception of the violence in LV. A woman was hit and killed by a car just outside of the complex one weekend. I worked on the strip the night of the Oct 1 shooting massacre, too. But that's just the tip of the violence problem in LV. People treat one another with so much contempt and hostility in everyday life there. They will actually come up to you, tell you they do not like you, and that they will do everything they can to destroy you. And they will do it often. You will probably have never met this person before their threat, and have done nothing to earn their hate.
Healthcare: I had mixed experiences with doctors there. I had doctors tell me they did not believe I had the symptoms I described - because I'm a guy. But I also finally got a chronic condition under control with a doctor there, too. Of course, that doctor will still, to this day, suggest we stop treatment at the slightest misstatement from me. Financially though, I once had a doctor send my bill to collections before ever actually billing me. Within days of treatment his collections agency contacted me - as though I were a problem patient. Then, years back, a gastroenterologist was found sharing medical supplies between patients. I forget the numbers, but he gave many people HIV/hepatitis/etc that way.
Options: It took a long time after the great recession for LV to recover. I'm sure it will not fare well during the next recession.
[+] [-] toasterlovin|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anothergoogler|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Sir_Substance|8 years ago|reply
It's complicated. Broadly speaking, it's an even split between:
1. Icelands software industry being considerably more vibrant than Australias, which is really sad for Aus.
2. Australias government increasingly intervening directly in it's citizens lives whether they like it or not. The Icelandic government is pretty hands off, þetta reddast etc.
3. Icelanders have no idea what the word "heat" really means. They've never under-clocked their computers to keep them stable during summer. I'll take Icelandic winter over Australia summer any day of the week.
It's been hard, but I wouldn't take back my decision, no way. Any one of those reasons is good enough for me.
We're living in the first age in human history where you can really just pick up all your shit and straight up move to the opposite side of the planet, no dramas. I paid ~$8,000AUD to some dudes, they rocked up at my place with a truck full of boxes and paper and wrapped up literally the entire house and drove off. Three months later some other dudes showed up at my new place in Reykjavik and unboxed everything for me. 8k isn't nothing, but it's not unreachable either, and I also paid for the full service move. Easiest move I ever did, but you could probably do it for half the price if you packed yourself.
Out of the whole planet, what're the odds that you were born in the place that suits you best? It's definitely worth shopping around.
[+] [-] alva|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] njwi332|8 years ago|reply
To offer some data for Sydney, Google has of course been around a while, Google Maps is based out of Australia. Atlassian is hiring as much as ever. Amazon has been growing at a rapid clip here in Sydney (I wish I could disclose numbers publicly!) and we have offices in Melbourne and Brisbane, and Microsoft is in the process of opening a dev centre in Sydney right now as well. Still a long ways to go but it's much better than even a few years ago.
[+] [-] bitL|8 years ago|reply
What exactly do you mean? And is it Australian government or individual state ones?
[+] [-] sashavingardt2|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sashavingardt2|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ojbyrne|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saudioger|8 years ago|reply
When I had to enter my kid into a lottery system and cross my fingers he'd end up in a good school, I certainly considered it.
Canada's not too far away.
[+] [-] ctvo|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] avenoir|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gwern|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matthewmacleod|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samjc|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jotm|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SirLJ|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] simonebrunozzi|8 years ago|reply
I would love to live in Estonia, if not for the weather, and the loooong winters.
Hard to solve this puzzle, I guess.
[+] [-] amaccuish|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] knuththetruth|8 years ago|reply
You’re essentially gambling that you won’t be struck by a finance destroying health crisis for a long enough time that you’ll come out ahead overall. But when you think about the fact that 35-40% of people develop cancer in their lifetimes, or the “financial death by a thousand procedures” described in the post, that seems unlikely, at least for a good portion of people.
[+] [-] holydude|8 years ago|reply