> Now Steve wants to warn the public about the dangers of LiPo batteries if left on charge for a substantial amount of time.
I've also occasionally heard recommendations from people to not leave devices charging because it may potentially wear out the battery prematurely. This may be a myth. But I always wonder -- why would the charging circuit not moderate the charging and mitigate such risks? Why should I as a user be responsible for providing just the right amount of charging?
I think it's Li-Ion batteries in laptops, not LiPo.
LiPos have a tendency to degas/explode unexpectedly even when the charger is good.
Multicopter/drones use LiPo batteries and there are multiple horror stories of pilots having their house destroyed. We have now learned to store them in special fireproof bags/containers even when not charging, never charge them unattended, always have a fire extinguisher near the charging station, etc.
BTW I see a phantom hanging on the wall... Maybe he tried to charge the laptop battery with the LiPo charger?
By the time it happens, it is generally too late to shut off the charging circuit -- it helps and it happens but the battery destruction is already underway. The question next is whether it will catch fire or simply 'swell up'. At this point it's mostly up to luck, the available fire-prevention mechanisms are stronger battery enclosures, which would be heavy, bulky and expensive -- exactly the things most consumers do not want and would vote against with their money, reducing the profits of the company innovating in this direction.
Another way to prevent fires would be attempting to detect dendrite growth by the changes in observable battery state (capacity, amperage, etc). This is hard, expensive and will likely give a lot of false alarms requiring warranty replacement, once again hitting the would-be innovator in their pockets.
>>> ... charging because it may potentially wear out the battery ...
It is true that overcharging a battery will do damage, potentially fire-type damage. The issue is that every "device" contains a charge controller to manage this. A laptop should not / will not overcharge its battery. By leaving it plugged in you are relying upon the charge controller to do its job. But remember that we trust such voltage regulators 24/7 in our cars, on our planes, and with nearly every consumer electronic plugged into a wall outlet.
The user may want the battery charged asap but the intelligent charger might decide that now isn't the time for that and really annoy you. If the battery requires complicated charging and discharging schedule, like old ones that had to be discharged before charging, or periodically, then this has to be controlled by the user because you won't want to wake up one morning and find your charger has intelligently flattened the battery for you, or failed to charge it because it's time to let it drain all the way down.
The other part being the recommendations not to always fully charge Lithium batteries. How come you can't configure the device or charger to do this? its 2018 already.
Many charging circuits in larger systems like vehicles do allow setting a limit below the theoretical maximum charge to preserve the battery's health.
Options to do this exist in laptops, but mostly just on enterprisey, higher-end models, are not set by default and not very well known.
There are two parts involved here: 1) prevent the battery from exploding? This it should do. 2) Prolong battery life? This requires not charging to 100%. I think it's fairly clear why most users don't want their things to stop charging at 75%.
> because it may potentially wear out the battery prematurely. This may be a myth.
I thought it was a myth too, so when I got my first cell phone, I left it plugged whenever I was home, even when I had used it so little that it was still showing full charge. After a time, however, its battery started to get "fat".
I bought a new battery, and since then only plugged the charger when the phone was no longer showing full charge. That battery still works, and is still as "thin" as it was when bought.
How often does this happen? This is the first time I've ever heard of it, and apparently it's uncommon enough to make the news and subsequently the HN front page.
Not battery fires in general, like I've heard/seen enough Youtube videos about quadcopter LiPos, and the Samsung Note 7 or whatever it was, but laptop batteries specifically. There's enough space to build safety in, and they don't fly around at high speeds like quadcopters.
The owner of course gives the advice of always unplugging laptops when you're not there and stuff, but I'd say the same if it was my office which burned down (hindsight bias). It's beneficial for battery makers to be slim on safety margins because then you can squeeze more juice into it, but as far as I know there's still lots of safety features on modern Li-ion/LiPo batteries, and this seems like either a one-in-a-billion or a (factory) defect.
Most thicker laptops run on 18650 cells, which are mechanically quite resilient. They almost always use unprotected cells with a Uchiya cutoff and a dedicated BMS with some fusing and thermal, voltage and current monitors.
No external mechanisms can help with issues originating within a cell (mechanical damage etc.), which methinks is a more common cause of catastrophic failures.
I don't know if having it off the charger will necessarily prevent issues. I had an old ~2010 Macbook Pro battery pack that stopped taking a charge, but which I decided to keep around because I thought I might see if it was possible to replace the cells. Kind of forgot about it, so it sat on a desktop for maybe a year, and then I tossed it in a closet maybe a year ago. While cleaning in there recently, I found this:
It was in a closed ziploc bag, which showed no evidence of high heat, but kind of disturbing in that I assumed after a year of sitting it would have fully discharged.
This is not unexpected for LiPo batteries. The anode in LiPo battery packs degrades overtime and outgasses oxygen which is why the packs puff up. This by itself won't cause an explosion but if you puncture the pack and expose it to water or flame you might get some fireworks.
After seeing some of the old UPS batteries bulging to the point we had to cut them out of their enclosures, cracking the battery cases, etc., I've generally just classed all batteries as things to get out of the house/business as fast as possible after they're out of service.
Deep discharge is actually probably what caused that. In lithium ion batteries, if cell voltage drops too low it can cause chemical changes in the electrolyte which can cause an internal short.
Apple's battery fault detection is pretty good actually. Did the battery said "service battery" or "replace battery" while it was operational? If the battery status showed something similar, the battery is already damaged before storage.
I have an 2008 MacBook pro, and one of my older batteries have shown the warning. After a year or so that battery has also swollen, albeit in a milder manner than yours.
The battery should have an automatic detection system for that. Some thin copper wires wound around the battery that break when the battery expands should do the trick. It could even work as a circuit-breaker for the battery itself, although sparks should be prevented.
A friend was the chief fire marshall for a very large (1.8 million inhabitants) European city. At night he would go through all the rooms and unplug each and every charger.
He's seen so many fires and has gone to the root cause of them that he sees chargers and batteries as incendiary devices, not consumer electronics.
I'll send this video to him, not that he needs more examples but it is quite striking how fast this goes from 'laptop charging on a desk' to 'office on fire' and what little if any warning there was that this was about to happen.
> " He only decided to leave it on charge when he unplugged it and it turned off immediately."
Sounds like the first warning sign that something was going wrong; if it wasn't dead prior, I would have been wary of keeping it on charge...20/20 I guess
Indeed. The battery was bad and wouldn't hold charge, but the charging circuitry probably would still try and charge the battery and it eventually, catastrophically failed. Owner is lucky they were not sitting there at the time.
If your battery doesn't hold a charge anymore, don't keep it plugged in. There should probably be a PSA for battery handling at this point.
This isn’t really a surprise. Most modern battery tech has a hell of a lot of energy in it which is what we desire to support long run times. It only takes a manufacturing error or some physical damage to let all that out pretty sharpish. This is usually a violent incendiary process on LiPo cells.
I doubt the battery in question was overcharged or this was because it was left on charge, but because it was faulty or damaged.
Looks like my general policy of never charging batteries on something flammable is going to have to be modified to not charging batteries near something flammable.
Like, what the heck, there were long jets of burning stuff spurting out of the battery. It was like it was designed to light the place on fire on a failure.
Hm. I’m keen to get an uninterruptible power supply (UPS) so that I can self-host more services from home, but I’m extremely worried about the fire-risk.
I’m afraid I know little about battery construction to know whether this is a valid concern, or what specifications/designs to look for. Do any of the battery experts of this thread have any advice?
I'm not a battery expert, but I have quite a bit of practical experience repairing UPSs. Battery failures are a very common problem, but battery fires are not. The most common failure mode for a lead acid battery is it just stops working. Sometimes some acid leaks out. Compared to lithium based batteries, they are very safe.
If you do buy a UPS, get one with a good warranty from a reputable supplier. In my (biased) experience, it's quite common for the internal electronics to fail. The repairs are usually pretty straight forward, but it's easier under warranty :)
I came into work about two weeks ago and my HP laptop felt and smelled like it was on fire(it wasn’t). It wouldn’t turn on though, completely fried. I wonder if something similar would have happened if I hadn’t showed up at that time.
I have a Toshiba laptop that has the uptime of an average server. It was part of their Qosmio line, the gaming laptops of their day, and weighed about ten pounds making it difficult to lug, so the thing has pretty much been on and plugged in nonstop since 2010 or so. It reboots maybe once every two months to complete Windows 7 updates.
Never had a problem with it. Not sure if batteries are just getting worse or if it's a result of the trend of trying to make things thinner-and-lighter such that there's not room for the battery to expand as it's likely to do over time without exploding.
IT tech here. I recently had a Dell laptop I unboxed, plugged in CAT5 and power then turned on. Walked away for 5 mins. Came back into my office and smoke was billowing out from the center of the keyboard! I yanked out the power adapter and kicked the fucker into a plastic box and RAN it to the bathroom where I threw it into a sink and waited. It didn't full on combust but the keyboard was melted and so was the bottom. Dell didn't want to hear ANY of it. They immediately wanted it sent to them. Manager made me just send it back without complaining further. They replaced the keys and mobo and SENT THE FUCKER back to use. Still singed an all. I should note that we open 10 or 15 new Latitudes a month. THis was the only firebomb we've had.
[+] [-] simmons|8 years ago|reply
I've also occasionally heard recommendations from people to not leave devices charging because it may potentially wear out the battery prematurely. This may be a myth. But I always wonder -- why would the charging circuit not moderate the charging and mitigate such risks? Why should I as a user be responsible for providing just the right amount of charging?
[+] [-] jobigoud|8 years ago|reply
I think it's Li-Ion batteries in laptops, not LiPo.
LiPos have a tendency to degas/explode unexpectedly even when the charger is good.
Multicopter/drones use LiPo batteries and there are multiple horror stories of pilots having their house destroyed. We have now learned to store them in special fireproof bags/containers even when not charging, never charge them unattended, always have a fire extinguisher near the charging station, etc.
BTW I see a phantom hanging on the wall... Maybe he tried to charge the laptop battery with the LiPo charger?
[+] [-] wanderer2323|8 years ago|reply
By the time it happens, it is generally too late to shut off the charging circuit -- it helps and it happens but the battery destruction is already underway. The question next is whether it will catch fire or simply 'swell up'. At this point it's mostly up to luck, the available fire-prevention mechanisms are stronger battery enclosures, which would be heavy, bulky and expensive -- exactly the things most consumers do not want and would vote against with their money, reducing the profits of the company innovating in this direction.
Another way to prevent fires would be attempting to detect dendrite growth by the changes in observable battery state (capacity, amperage, etc). This is hard, expensive and will likely give a lot of false alarms requiring warranty replacement, once again hitting the would-be innovator in their pockets.
[+] [-] craftyguy|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmlnr|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sandworm101|8 years ago|reply
It is true that overcharging a battery will do damage, potentially fire-type damage. The issue is that every "device" contains a charge controller to manage this. A laptop should not / will not overcharge its battery. By leaving it plugged in you are relying upon the charge controller to do its job. But remember that we trust such voltage regulators 24/7 in our cars, on our planes, and with nearly every consumer electronic plugged into a wall outlet.
[+] [-] lopmotr|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rb808|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] solarkraft|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kqr|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] petee|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cesarb|8 years ago|reply
I thought it was a myth too, so when I got my first cell phone, I left it plugged whenever I was home, even when I had used it so little that it was still showing full charge. After a time, however, its battery started to get "fat".
I bought a new battery, and since then only plugged the charger when the phone was no longer showing full charge. That battery still works, and is still as "thin" as it was when bought.
[+] [-] lucb1e|8 years ago|reply
Not battery fires in general, like I've heard/seen enough Youtube videos about quadcopter LiPos, and the Samsung Note 7 or whatever it was, but laptop batteries specifically. There's enough space to build safety in, and they don't fly around at high speeds like quadcopters.
The owner of course gives the advice of always unplugging laptops when you're not there and stuff, but I'd say the same if it was my office which burned down (hindsight bias). It's beneficial for battery makers to be slim on safety margins because then you can squeeze more juice into it, but as far as I know there's still lots of safety features on modern Li-ion/LiPo batteries, and this seems like either a one-in-a-billion or a (factory) defect.
[+] [-] blattimwind|8 years ago|reply
No external mechanisms can help with issues originating within a cell (mechanical damage etc.), which methinks is a more common cause of catastrophic failures.
[+] [-] yborg|8 years ago|reply
https://my.mixtape.moe/kceuko.jpg https://my.mixtape.moe/zbvjdu.jpg
It was in a closed ziploc bag, which showed no evidence of high heat, but kind of disturbing in that I assumed after a year of sitting it would have fully discharged.
[+] [-] cptskippy|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ocdtrekkie|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kec|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bayindirh|8 years ago|reply
I have an 2008 MacBook pro, and one of my older batteries have shown the warning. After a year or so that battery has also swollen, albeit in a milder manner than yours.
[+] [-] amelius|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|8 years ago|reply
He's seen so many fires and has gone to the root cause of them that he sees chargers and batteries as incendiary devices, not consumer electronics.
I'll send this video to him, not that he needs more examples but it is quite striking how fast this goes from 'laptop charging on a desk' to 'office on fire' and what little if any warning there was that this was about to happen.
[+] [-] RangerScience|8 years ago|reply
(Like, if you pick _one_ takeaway from this and change _one_ thing about your life, maybe that one?)
[+] [-] petee|8 years ago|reply
Sounds like the first warning sign that something was going wrong; if it wasn't dead prior, I would have been wary of keeping it on charge...20/20 I guess
[+] [-] JustSomeNobody|8 years ago|reply
If your battery doesn't hold a charge anymore, don't keep it plugged in. There should probably be a PSA for battery handling at this point.
[+] [-] wanderer2323|8 years ago|reply
Lithium dendrite growth, the (mostly not understood) cause of the battery catching fire.
[+] [-] setquk|8 years ago|reply
I doubt the battery in question was overcharged or this was because it was left on charge, but because it was faulty or damaged.
This one is a relatively small one: https://youtu.be/bqcX1AjdxSw
[+] [-] upofadown|8 years ago|reply
Like, what the heck, there were long jets of burning stuff spurting out of the battery. It was like it was designed to light the place on fire on a failure.
[+] [-] larrik|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ceautery|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dmix|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] confounded|8 years ago|reply
I’m afraid I know little about battery construction to know whether this is a valid concern, or what specifications/designs to look for. Do any of the battery experts of this thread have any advice?
[+] [-] pwg|8 years ago|reply
Not the same battery chemistry, so much reduced (if nearly zero) fire risk from a UPS.
[+] [-] m4x|8 years ago|reply
If you do buy a UPS, get one with a good warranty from a reputable supplier. In my (biased) experience, it's quite common for the internal electronics to fail. The repairs are usually pretty straight forward, but it's easier under warranty :)
[+] [-] oxymoran|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AdmiralAsshat|8 years ago|reply
Never had a problem with it. Not sure if batteries are just getting worse or if it's a result of the trend of trying to make things thinner-and-lighter such that there's not room for the battery to expand as it's likely to do over time without exploding.
[+] [-] amelius|8 years ago|reply
Search for "battery explosion fire containment bag"
[+] [-] solarkraft|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lucb1e|8 years ago|reply
Do you know of any laptop brand with products <$1k which never had an overheating problem?
[+] [-] dghughes|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmagin|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] urda|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] notafxn|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmlnr|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pound|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gl00pp|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] newnewpdro|8 years ago|reply