Anyone interested in this topic should definitely check out Darryl Cooper's "MartyrMade" podcast, which had a Dan-Carlin-style series of episodes about early modern Zionism and the origins of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict: http://www.martyrmade.com/fear-loathing-in-the-new-jerusalem... It does a great job of being even-handed and emotionally connecting the listener with the motivations of the people in history.
The history of the Jews (and the Jewish diaspora in particular) is fascinating. Between the typical opposing endpoints of assimilation/integration and separation there is this curious in-between state that seems both chaotic and stable over time -- the state of being "in a place" but not always being "of that place." The aforementioned podcast describes well the urge to assimilate or to remain distinct, positions held by both those in the Jewish community and those outside of it. The modern revival of the Hebrew language into a living tongue, both as a method of crystallizing identity and distinctiveness, is one example. Also interesting to consider how even small differences in "rules" between societies (like allowing usury or not, and to whom) leads to complex social consequences over time -- sort of a cellular automata analogy. Historical patterns of Jewish expulsion from various societies also make for interesting microcosms to understand tribe-based interactions: when the Jewish people were invited or allowed into a region, who was behind that change in policy and why? When pogroms or expulsions happened afterward, what were the causes and which segments of the population were the catalyst and why? It's an endlessly dynamic system that resists our efforts to create a simple static narrative -- and I suppose if anything it helps reveal that all of history is like that.
On a side note ...and I know I'll be sacrificing some points for this comment... I can't seem to get what everyone likes about Dan Carlin. I really enjoy history, and appreciate color commentary, but I've found the couple that I've heard didn't hold my interest very long. I started the Khans and one on the Romans, after hearing the non-stop praise on JRE. I really wanted to like it, which is why I was shocked that it seemed slow and light on the history despite being hours-long.
This is just, like, my opinion, man. I'm not trying to talk bad about it, I've just been curious if anyone else was disappointed or knows a better episode I should check out. I'm fascinated by Genghis Khan though, so I'm not sure how another topic could be more intriguing.
I've always been idly curious as to what happened in Israel (as in the geographic area) between, say, 35 A.D. and 1948. It seems, though, as if everybody who might have some insight there also has an agenda that makes any concrete information they might have to share indecipherable.
Your idle curiosity has already yielded an important insight: the situation is complex. I think if everyone only knew one thing about the middle east, it should be that.
Romans, Byzantines, Arabs/Muslims, Crusaders, Ottomans,
British. (You're connected to the greatest repository of knowledge in human history, you can look some of this up on your own.)
I don't know if some would call it biased, but it made a strong impression on me as a young adult. I am not Jewish, but it is fascinating in and of itself.
Indeed, this fact this makes me proud to be a Jew. (A happy Passover to all whom it may concern).
As a young boy my father used to take me to the Pergamon museum in Berlin - one major exhibit is the Babylonian street of processions (it dates to the neo-Babylonian empire) He used to say - here you see our heritage, we were around the show when Berlin (and all the other great capitals of the world) were still a swamp.
I didn't got that from the article. As far I understood it, during all this time, multiple iddentities appeared, evolved, split and disappeared, even if all can be traced back to the original Israel Kingdom.
There is little in the way of ethnicity. Ashkenazi Jews are an ethnicity, Jews in general, aren't. They even spoke different languages before Hebrew became a thing in early XX century, and many of them still do.
Not strange at all, integration is an exception more than the norm. The various chinatowns, italian quarters, irish quarters etc should be a testament to that: communities always tried to stick together thorough time and space, now and in the past. There are comparatively few cases of succesful long term non violent integration.
I read Adam Kirch's review 'Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write'. Perhaps it is because no one can ever seem to agree on what 'Jewish' actually is, as evidenced by some of the discussion threads here...
Fair point. I guess in that sense it's like "big data" or "blockchain", both concepts that I'm sure exist but I'm not quite sure how to define.
Anecdote: I was once in a conversation with a fellow who was a rabbi and this topic came up. He said, "well...the way I think of it is, if you can think of ten characteristics that are 'Jewish', anyone who has any six of them can claim the title." I guess that's one way to be flexible.
There are much earlier archaeological artefacts including stone writing from much earlier than 457 B.C. This is the time after the destruction of the first temple by the Babylonians who dispersed the Jews around the area. Since then there were Jewish communities all over the middle east including in Egypt. I don't understand why the writer of the article is so baffled about this.
Just as an example, the Merneptah Stele is the first to mention the name Israel and is dated to 1203 BC. Ahab and Omri the Israeli biblical kings are mentioned in the Kurkh Monoliths and the Mesha Stele from 850 BC so to start to research Jews just from 457 BC looks a bit too late in the game.
From other things I've seen from Schama I think he starts the book there because he is fascinated with the episode, not because he thinks it's the first solid evidence of Jews.
He sees Elephantine as countering widely held beliefs about ancient Jewish life (that it was all in Israel, homogenous, etc), containing interesting analogues to the present day, and being an altogether interesting story.
It can be more difficult to spin a good yarn from the older material.
That's because "whiteness" is an invented category. There are no historical threads that bind together just the people you think of as "white" that don't include many others that you exclude based solely on a modern historical understanding of "white".
Write a history of the Irish diaspora, Sweden, the Balkans, or Russia and nobody is going to call you racist. Claim some sort of tribal group that incorporates all of Europe and the Middle East except excludes people of a skin color or specific religious history you don't like, and you'll find that you're racist. Magic.
Kind of tacky. The article is trying to address why the Jews as a persecuted group have survived throughout history. It's pretty impressive. I don't see "glorification" just history.
It's almost like you registered to talk trash about Jews. What are you adding to the conversation?
Jewishness is not just about race, religion, or ethnicity, it may encompass those things but it's more about shared identity and history, so getting into racism and then trying to bring up religious practices is just throwing darts at the wall.
> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
It appears to have gratified at least 159 people's intellectual curiosity (at the time of making this post).
[+] [-] DanAndersen|8 years ago|reply
The history of the Jews (and the Jewish diaspora in particular) is fascinating. Between the typical opposing endpoints of assimilation/integration and separation there is this curious in-between state that seems both chaotic and stable over time -- the state of being "in a place" but not always being "of that place." The aforementioned podcast describes well the urge to assimilate or to remain distinct, positions held by both those in the Jewish community and those outside of it. The modern revival of the Hebrew language into a living tongue, both as a method of crystallizing identity and distinctiveness, is one example. Also interesting to consider how even small differences in "rules" between societies (like allowing usury or not, and to whom) leads to complex social consequences over time -- sort of a cellular automata analogy. Historical patterns of Jewish expulsion from various societies also make for interesting microcosms to understand tribe-based interactions: when the Jewish people were invited or allowed into a region, who was behind that change in policy and why? When pogroms or expulsions happened afterward, what were the causes and which segments of the population were the catalyst and why? It's an endlessly dynamic system that resists our efforts to create a simple static narrative -- and I suppose if anything it helps reveal that all of history is like that.
[+] [-] Pigo|8 years ago|reply
This is just, like, my opinion, man. I'm not trying to talk bad about it, I've just been curious if anyone else was disappointed or knows a better episode I should check out. I'm fascinated by Genghis Khan though, so I'm not sure how another topic could be more intriguing.
[+] [-] linkmotif|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] commandlinefan|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agreen|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vondur|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fusiongyro|8 years ago|reply
https://www.amazon.com/Peace-End-All-Ottoman-Creation/dp/080...
Your idle curiosity has already yielded an important insight: the situation is complex. I think if everyone only knew one thing about the middle east, it should be that.
[+] [-] dbt00|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] guelo|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lostlogin|8 years ago|reply
And if you’re even vaguely interested, his books on Russia are fantastic too - The Romanovs and the two on Stalin in particular.
[+] [-] isolli|8 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Abraham_(novel)
I don't know if some would call it biased, but it made a strong impression on me as a young adult. I am not Jewish, but it is fascinating in and of itself.
[+] [-] nickik|8 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY
[+] [-] oyvey|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MichaelMoser123|8 years ago|reply
As a young boy my father used to take me to the Pergamon museum in Berlin - one major exhibit is the Babylonian street of processions (it dates to the neo-Babylonian empire) He used to say - here you see our heritage, we were around the show when Berlin (and all the other great capitals of the world) were still a swamp.
[+] [-] baud147258|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anovikov|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LoSboccacc|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] olivermarks|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwawayjewis2|8 years ago|reply
Anecdote: I was once in a conversation with a fellow who was a rabbi and this topic came up. He said, "well...the way I think of it is, if you can think of ten characteristics that are 'Jewish', anyone who has any six of them can claim the title." I guess that's one way to be flexible.
[+] [-] aaron-lebo|8 years ago|reply
https://www.amazon.com/In-the-Beginning/dp/B00J97O91Q/
[+] [-] dizzy3gg|8 years ago|reply
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0398rkj/the-story-of-...
I actually started watching last night after never really been taught (or remember being taught) much about them.
[+] [-] golemiprague|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jrumbut|8 years ago|reply
He sees Elephantine as countering widely held beliefs about ancient Jewish life (that it was all in Israel, homogenous, etc), containing interesting analogues to the present day, and being an altogether interesting story.
It can be more difficult to spin a good yarn from the older material.
[+] [-] wslh|8 years ago|reply
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Figurine_from_Egypt_of_se...
[+] [-] Parsifal18|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ekanes|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dang|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dbt00|8 years ago|reply
Write a history of the Irish diaspora, Sweden, the Balkans, or Russia and nobody is going to call you racist. Claim some sort of tribal group that incorporates all of Europe and the Middle East except excludes people of a skin color or specific religious history you don't like, and you'll find that you're racist. Magic.
[+] [-] aaron-lebo|8 years ago|reply
It's almost like you registered to talk trash about Jews. What are you adding to the conversation?
Jewishness is not just about race, religion, or ethnicity, it may encompass those things but it's more about shared identity and history, so getting into racism and then trying to bring up religious practices is just throwing darts at the wall.
[+] [-] LifeLiverTransp|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blah389405|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mfringel|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sophacles|8 years ago|reply
> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
It appears to have gratified at least 159 people's intellectual curiosity (at the time of making this post).
[+] [-] Zenst|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zpatel|8 years ago|reply