The chart is really misleading. It's labeled: "Here are the average 2015 prices for a vaginal birth, not including costs for care before and after giving birth" but for the UK it lists the price of the royal baby's fancy birth. A normal birth in the UK is free!
My daughter was born by C-section in the UK. Mum and baby stayed in the hospital for a few days to recover from the C-section. This would have been completely free but they would have had to share a room with 3 other mums and newborns. That's not so nice so we opted to pay for a private room.
The cost for a private room in a hospital in the UK was the equivalent of $100 per night! In a HOSPITAL! Coming from the US that blew my mind.
My daughter was born premature. Mum was in hospital for a week prior and post birth (in her own room). I was given a room for the week next to the hospital. Then when daughter was born she was in hospital for four months of intensive care - in conversation with a doctor he remarked that the cost to the NHS for this would have been about £125k. Coming close to release time we were given a room in the ward so we could be with our baby 24 hours.
Cost to us for the whole thing - £0.
We were even given a pass so we could get free parking throughout.
The one downside to the whole thing, when it came to crunch time there was no space in the nearest neonatal ward, so we had to be rushed in an ambulance the the nearest one that did have space. About 200 miles away, so we weren't able to go home for a couple of months until baby was stable enough to be transferred closer. It was tough, but I will be forever grateful to the NHS for the amazing effort that everyone involved happily contributed.
Here in Scotland when my son was born, he needed to stay in hospital for 10 days for what turned out to be benign myclonic jerks in his sleep.
The midwives gave my wife her own room and even set up a camp-bed for me. They gave me tea and toast in the morning joking that they weren't sure they should do, but there was enough to spare.
We didn't need to pay anything and both being on paid parental leave took any financial pressure off so we were able to concentrate on the baby.
Cost out of pocket and actual costs aren’t the same thing.
The overall health care is likely cheaper but you do pay for it your entire adult life.
So while they charged you $100 during birth (btw that’s extremely cheap a private room in a central London hospital without insurance copay is a few £100’s a night) you pay for that room from your first paycheck to the last.
How is the chart misleading when it is the supporting evidence in an article titled “Kate Middleton’s ‘luxury’ birth cost less than the average U.S. birth”?
Same story with both of my children. C-section both times so my partner stayed in hospital for a few days. With the first one we opted to pay for a single room for a couple of nights, but didn't bother the second time. Total cost for both births was less than £200, and that was just for the single room.
The idea that people have to pay huge amounts of money for a basic human need like safe childbirth is very troubling.
Considering how hugely complex and difficult a child birth is, and considering that there are professional doctors and trained nurses available for free, the complaint about the cost of a private room because what is given for free was 'not so nice', is, to my mind, seriously taking things for granted.
Yes, the chart is misleading, giving birth in Spain is free as well, you may just pay the cost of the parking and whatever you take from the vending machine while you're waiting. I believe the chart refers to private hospital births where you get to have a room for yourself, etc.
The point I rarely see discussed in these ongoing debates about the best way to pay for healthcare is the benefit of knowing what you have to pay.
As I understand it in the US even with health insurance there is likely to be an additional payment required by the patient for treatment, and the cost of that payment is generally unknown upfront.
With the NHS is the UK I can be pretty confident that no matter what medication my doctor prescribes that when I collect it from the pharmacy it will cost me exactly £8.60
I can also be confident that when I go for an appointment to see my GP that it will cost me nothing. This doesn't mean that is is free, as my National Insurance contributions are substantial, but that I know that I don't bear any financial risk from going to see a doctor.
I can't imagine what it would be like to have to worry about whether going to see a doctor about this mole that's changed a bit might land me with an unknown bill. Or to worry that my daughters peanut allergy could see me paying hundreds of dollars when her adrenaline pens expires.
> This doesn't mean that is is free, as my National Insurance contributions are substantial, but that I know that I don't bear any financial risk from going to see a doctor.
In fact, it's more important than that. Because you pay NI upfront, it relieves the feeling of burden that you might otherwise feel towards the NHS, which actually makes you more willing to go to the doctor. This means you're more likely to catch minor things before they become major problems (further reducing NHS costs).
Yes! I completely agree. Actually in my experience it's even worse - not only do you not know how much the bill will be, you never know when you've received the last bill! First you get a bill from the hospital, but a week later you get a separate bill from the anesthesiologist, then some days later another for the ultrasound technician, then some days later another for the ambulance, etc...
This was for the hospital car parking for 3 days to visit my wife while she recovered in maternity ward in a private room.
Everything else was free, from the first scan, through to delivery, and the standard of care was good.
Didn't need specialists, but if we did that would have been free too.
We have private health insurance as well (NZ$300/month to cover the family), but in public health care is good enough, private is for when you want to get treated faster for less critical things.
And that car park is a disaster. I’m guessing you refer to Auckland Hospital. If you are, wait until midnight and the gates open and it becomes free. You can tell when it’s going to be free soon as half the cars have people sitting in them.
Also worth pointing out that in the UK, we were offered three choices of births. Home, water or hospital. We started off in the birthing pools until mum decided she wanted the epidural after all. I thought all three of options were quite luxurious and service by the midwives was second to none!
If I think about our decision making process for a car-seat (oh god, let's go for the best - just in case), I am glad that no-one has put a monetary value on giving birth.
I'd never thought of it like that, but we did exactly the same thing with the child seat. I daren't imagine what would happen to the state of neonatal care if it were privatised here.
Here's the price list for the private hospital they used.
Note things like "If your baby requires transitional or specialist care, this is free if they are entitled to NHS care and is chargeable if they are not." -- British (and EU etc) patients can pay for the luxury private room and so on, but if they unfortunately need significant extra care, public healthcare will cover that.
In "normal" cases, roughly, 500 USD or less if you have insurance.
But it's really awfully complicated -- often the baby gets a separate bill too to muddle the waters. The ACA ("Obamacare") set a cap on in-network yearly out of pocket payments on family plans which, if memory serves, was around 11k in 2017. A complicated birth can hit this! Consider the costs of NICU, for example. (Oh and if an NICU nurse reads this: thank you, thank you, thank you for the life of my niece.)
The article suggests the end payment is around $3,000 after insurance, which is still more than the ~US$2,000 + 500/night you’d pay for a non-resident birth where I live. I’d be free if you were a resident, unless you want a premium room with a bed for your partner to stay in when it would be ~US$300/night.
This is completely anecdotal of course but... my insurance covered all but $700 of the birth. The total cost was over $15k.
What it did not pay full for was ultrasounds. Which aren't technical part of the birth. They only paid full for the first one and we needed 5, which was about $300 each out of pocket for me.
But I hear my experience is not typical. Usually out of pocket costs (even with insurance) are much higher in the US.
Our out-of-pocket has been $175 including delivery and postpartum care. We’ve needed to stay 48 hours in recovery for medical reasons at no additional cost (cesarean recovery allows 96 hours). The article conflates per-night and per-visit costs.
Usa here, with decent health insurance at the time.
C-section birth, plus 4 day stay at the hospital (Max included allowed by insurance). Total billed by the hospital was something crazy around 11-16k? I forget actual number. It was a decent stay/food but nothing crazy over the top about it.
After all said and done we paid $1100 for our hospital stay. I was happy it was this "cheap".
P.s. oh yes, also hospital car parking -I think I was there total for 5 days so $12x5=$60.
Sales tax in the UK is 20%. A gallon of gas is >$7. Salaries are miniscule compared to the US. SF/NYC real estate is a bargain compared to London. And the NHS, well hmm...
In Russia giving birth is free, as is whatever-long stay is hospital (in shared room). Of course, you can have private room, where father, mother and child can stay for as little as 100$ a night.
Actually, state pays mother about 7000$ for second child in addition to all normal allowances and benefits.
In this case it's a UK private hospital not funded by the NHS so the comparison is valid. The article compares one of the most expensive private hospital of the UK to the cost of an average US hospital. Also the US spends more in public taxes for healthcare than the UK so I don't see your point.
A midwife delivered my kid in the bedroom for two orders of magnitude less money.
Not to mention, thousands of years of doing it without even a midwife was somehow good enough to keep the species alive long enough for hospitals to be invented so people could think having a baby requires one.
EDIT: Sorry to distract you with that last bit. A midwife, you're paying for a license and a sterile pair of scissors. It works fine. The idea that you need a huge medical apparatus and to pay $10 grand for it, to do something humans evolved to do, is pretty FUDdish.
You utter prat. My sister is an NHS midwife and went through three years of highly technical university education for it. It's a skilled job and she's saved lives when things have gone wrong. Should we all go back to living in mud huts instead of professionally-built houses, too?
To be fair there was a far higher mortality rate up until relatively recently. (I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of sterile conditions did give the surviving kids immune system a good kick start though).
It works fine as long as there are not complications. Births are incredibly dangerous for the mother and the infant compared to almost anything else we do.
Research isn't great but it seems to show that home births are more risky than hospital births; that midwife led care is safer but only if there are both obstetricians available and strong multidisciplinary working.
[+] [-] foreigner|8 years ago|reply
My daughter was born by C-section in the UK. Mum and baby stayed in the hospital for a few days to recover from the C-section. This would have been completely free but they would have had to share a room with 3 other mums and newborns. That's not so nice so we opted to pay for a private room.
The cost for a private room in a hospital in the UK was the equivalent of $100 per night! In a HOSPITAL! Coming from the US that blew my mind.
[+] [-] weavie|8 years ago|reply
Cost to us for the whole thing - £0.
We were even given a pass so we could get free parking throughout.
The one downside to the whole thing, when it came to crunch time there was no space in the nearest neonatal ward, so we had to be rushed in an ambulance the the nearest one that did have space. About 200 miles away, so we weren't able to go home for a couple of months until baby was stable enough to be transferred closer. It was tough, but I will be forever grateful to the NHS for the amazing effort that everyone involved happily contributed.
[+] [-] hlidotbe|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tomclive|8 years ago|reply
The midwives gave my wife her own room and even set up a camp-bed for me. They gave me tea and toast in the morning joking that they weren't sure they should do, but there was enough to spare.
We didn't need to pay anything and both being on paid parental leave took any financial pressure off so we were able to concentrate on the baby.
[+] [-] dogma1138|8 years ago|reply
The overall health care is likely cheaper but you do pay for it your entire adult life.
So while they charged you $100 during birth (btw that’s extremely cheap a private room in a central London hospital without insurance copay is a few £100’s a night) you pay for that room from your first paycheck to the last.
[+] [-] kgwgk|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andyjohnson0|8 years ago|reply
The idea that people have to pay huge amounts of money for a basic human need like safe childbirth is very troubling.
[+] [-] thunderbong|8 years ago|reply
Considering how hugely complex and difficult a child birth is, and considering that there are professional doctors and trained nurses available for free, the complaint about the cost of a private room because what is given for free was 'not so nice', is, to my mind, seriously taking things for granted.
[+] [-] JorgeGT|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jinushaun|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ThatHNGuy|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] onetimemanytime|8 years ago|reply
UK doctors don't work for free, and neither do nurses. Not to mention equipment and buildings. You're taxed for it.
[+] [-] mmikeff|8 years ago|reply
With the NHS is the UK I can be pretty confident that no matter what medication my doctor prescribes that when I collect it from the pharmacy it will cost me exactly £8.60
I can also be confident that when I go for an appointment to see my GP that it will cost me nothing. This doesn't mean that is is free, as my National Insurance contributions are substantial, but that I know that I don't bear any financial risk from going to see a doctor.
I can't imagine what it would be like to have to worry about whether going to see a doctor about this mole that's changed a bit might land me with an unknown bill. Or to worry that my daughters peanut allergy could see me paying hundreds of dollars when her adrenaline pens expires.
[+] [-] johnday|8 years ago|reply
In fact, it's more important than that. Because you pay NI upfront, it relieves the feeling of burden that you might otherwise feel towards the NHS, which actually makes you more willing to go to the doctor. This means you're more likely to catch minor things before they become major problems (further reducing NHS costs).
[+] [-] foreigner|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] indemnity|8 years ago|reply
This was for the hospital car parking for 3 days to visit my wife while she recovered in maternity ward in a private room.
Everything else was free, from the first scan, through to delivery, and the standard of care was good.
Didn't need specialists, but if we did that would have been free too.
We have private health insurance as well (NZ$300/month to cover the family), but in public health care is good enough, private is for when you want to get treated faster for less critical things.
[+] [-] lostlogin|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nealdt|8 years ago|reply
If I think about our decision making process for a car-seat (oh god, let's go for the best - just in case), I am glad that no-one has put a monetary value on giving birth.
[+] [-] oliwarner|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Symbiote|8 years ago|reply
Note things like "If your baby requires transitional or specialist care, this is free if they are entitled to NHS care and is chargeable if they are not." -- British (and EU etc) patients can pay for the luxury private room and so on, but if they unfortunately need significant extra care, public healthcare will cover that.
https://2ic5hf2u26uo1u64w43h7rt0-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...
[+] [-] kjgkjhfkjf|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chx|8 years ago|reply
But it's really awfully complicated -- often the baby gets a separate bill too to muddle the waters. The ACA ("Obamacare") set a cap on in-network yearly out of pocket payments on family plans which, if memory serves, was around 11k in 2017. A complicated birth can hit this! Consider the costs of NICU, for example. (Oh and if an NICU nurse reads this: thank you, thank you, thank you for the life of my niece.)
As to what the insurers pays, I do not know.
[+] [-] sitharus|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway2016a|8 years ago|reply
What it did not pay full for was ultrasounds. Which aren't technical part of the birth. They only paid full for the first one and we needed 5, which was about $300 each out of pocket for me.
But I hear my experience is not typical. Usually out of pocket costs (even with insurance) are much higher in the US.
[+] [-] votepaunchy|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] readhn|8 years ago|reply
C-section birth, plus 4 day stay at the hospital (Max included allowed by insurance). Total billed by the hospital was something crazy around 11-16k? I forget actual number. It was a decent stay/food but nothing crazy over the top about it.
After all said and done we paid $1100 for our hospital stay. I was happy it was this "cheap".
P.s. oh yes, also hospital car parking -I think I was there total for 5 days so $12x5=$60.
[+] [-] nkkollaw|8 years ago|reply
We are really lucky.
[+] [-] HenryBemis|8 years ago|reply
[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jan/16/why-does-it-...
[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16189976
[+] [-] kjgkjhfkjf|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Max_Mustermann|8 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...
[+] [-] unknown|8 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] hamilyon2|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jlebrech|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Xuper|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] realusername|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kmonsen|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] axefrog|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rdiddly|8 years ago|reply
Not to mention, thousands of years of doing it without even a midwife was somehow good enough to keep the species alive long enough for hospitals to be invented so people could think having a baby requires one.
EDIT: Sorry to distract you with that last bit. A midwife, you're paying for a license and a sterile pair of scissors. It works fine. The idea that you need a huge medical apparatus and to pay $10 grand for it, to do something humans evolved to do, is pretty FUDdish.
[+] [-] eurleif|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] apta|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alicewales|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] collyw|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kmonsen|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DanBC|8 years ago|reply
Research isn't great but it seems to show that home births are more risky than hospital births; that midwife led care is safer but only if there are both obstetricians available and strong multidisciplinary working.
[+] [-] partycoder|8 years ago|reply