Why not just adjust the H-1B program so that the highest paid positions get priority? That way companies could still hire abroad for in-demand skills, but it would eliminate bringing people into the country to avoid paying the prevailing wages for IT workers. You could even make exceptions for academic or medical work as needed. It seems like a common sense adjustment to the program, but I don't see many people offering this up as a solution to this problem.
Exactly this was proposed last year in a bill with a democrat sponsor. But right now H1b is basically the only way to get hired as an immigrant. If you made it wage-prioritized there would be basically no way to get an h1b for entry level jobs, which would really suck for new graduates.
That would result in tech workers continuing to be underpaid, just slightly less so, and other professions being complete non-starters for immigrants. Working in tech, it's easy to get myopic about H1-B issues and only see how the program affects our workplaces. But it's important to realize there are professions other than tech that get paid a lot less than even the underpaid tech H1-B visa holders. And adjusting the program to fix problems in tech can easily break it for everyone else.
But I think there is a better way to fix the program and not have the kind of collateral damage that your plan would create. It's a method that's in use in many parts of the world and it works well...ratios. Let companies hire as many DHS-cleared immigrants as they want provided they also employ the requisite number of US citizens in similar roles.
That would be great, but companies would figure out ways around it. Company would pay 2X and ask employee to pay X to some random/affiliated company for training etc. They would even do this handoff in India to stay out of radar and tell you what many indians would take the deal.
The solution is "EXTREMELY" strict penalties including prison time for board of companies who indulge in it willingly.
> Why not just adjust the H-1B program so that the highest paid positions get priority?
Why not just eliminate the employer-sponsored H-1B and allow individuals who aren't personally barred from entry to pay for temporary residency and work permit on an annual basis, with prices that escalate with higher demand?
Salaries vary not just on individual skill and talent but also on the city of the job.
This will make all the H1 jobs go to Bay Area, may be some to NYC, LA & Boston too. But primarily Bay Area.
“Cloudwick has never brought resources from India,” Chhabra said. “All the resources are Master’s students that have educated in U.S. and then we hired and trained them.”
This is rather slippery way to paint the picture. And from the looks of it this is more of an abuse of the F-1/OPT visas program. These visas haven't got the coverage as much as H1B program:
Unlike H-1 the F-1/OPT visas don't have any wage requirements. It rather asks employers to attest that people on F-1 are paid according to someone with similar duties.
Workers were paid $800 a month during training, he said.
The whole training thing is another sword of damocles hanging on people getting H1/F1 visas. I have heard stories about Infosys suing people for money if they leave before serving 2 years on H1 with Infosys. The route Infosys take is that company has paid for training and needs to claw back that amount from these employees.
There's an entire industry built around F-1/OPT abuse, since it's the only way to have a decent shot at getting an H-1B. Cf. the Silicon Valley University and the like.
Other visas are also abused (J-1, L-1, even O-1). It wouldn't be that hard to have a saner immigration path for skilled workers, like Canada, Australia and many European countries.
These exploitation are far too common they are just very unreported due to fear of losing job and having to leave country in 24 hours notice.
Desi consulting shops are most to blame for. They learned tricks from big guys, it's easy to make big guys change their ways but not all these moms and pops shops.
> Cloudwick Technologies of Newark has been ordered to pay about $175,000 to 12 employees for back wages after violating H-1B rules, the U.S. Department of Labor said.
Is it $175000 in back wages per person, or total for all 12 people? The wording is a little sloppy here.
"A Northern California company that federal officials say violated salary requirements of the country’s foreign-worker visa program will pay a total of $173,044 to 12 workers, the U.S. Department of Labor said Tuesday." https://apnews.com/d4a22bf65d5f49f3b65bc4806e86e0bd
Given that's what one might have paid for only two of those workers for a year at their expected salaries, this seems woefully inadequate as a deterrent.
It's always companies that specialize in offshoring caught doing this. Why do these companies get H1B visas when there are companies willing to pay better that don't?
Turn H1B into an auction. Lotteries are a terrible way to allocate a scare resource.
They're also a way to reward exploitation. Why ? Because exploiters can just rapid-fire requests and therefore increase their odds massively, but companies that want specific high-performers cannot, because there aren't that many.
H1B auctions would drive wages down for American citizens.
Companies could hire immigrants for less than what the prevailing wage is of citizens working the same job in the same area - then lay off the citizens.
I know another variation involving a different company and engineers from another country. They incentivize young engineers to go and work for companies like Google on-site. Since it is an amazing experience to travel and work abroad they don't care about additional work benefits.
This is one thing I don't entirely understand in terms of political alignment. The one side that is supposed to be about the little guy seems to support this system of immigration which leads quite directly to depressed wages and exploitation of this sort. Even in cases where the 'guest workers' are not so ridiculously underpaid, companies still exploit the fact that these workers generally have to have this job or they may be forced to leave the nation losing any hopes of gaining permanent residency or citizenship. In other words when the company tells them to jump, their only question is going to be how high - compared to an increasingly 'mobile' domestic workforce.
Do you have a source for your claims about political alignment and skilled foreign-worker policy? My impression was that many Democrats want green cards for those who earn advanced STEM degrees in the US, while Republican policy has recently been more protectionist/nativist.
This is why socialist in the vast majority of the 20th century were vehemently anti-immigration, and the right was pro-immigration. Immigration destroys labor, and rewards capital. You'd think "leftists" would have a problem with that.
Or maybe it's just the pendulum swining back I guess. When democrats and republicans were young, new, parties, republicans were definitely left-wing and democrats were right-wing. Maybe it's just switching around again.
This is fairly typical of companies that use this employer-client or employer-vendor-client (EVC) business model. In this case, the employer is Cloudwick, and the clients are "Apple, Cisco, Comcast, American Express, Bank of America, Safeway, Verizon and Visa".
It is very common for employers in the EVC model to pay well below market wages, and often withhold, or ask employees to pay back some of the money under the table, making the actual wage much lower. The employees are pretty much powerless - if they refuse, they would get fired and be forced to leave the country.
These employers often add fake projects or fake experience to their employees' resumes when offering them to a vendor or client.
There is only one solution - a massive clampdown on third-party placements on H-1B employers, as is already done on L-1 and STEM OPT employers.
I've been told some of the H1Bs at the goog SJC offices mostly do make work work. Which, if true, raises the question, why do they even have them if they putt around most of the day trying to figure out what else they can do on projects in limbo.
I've seen consultants in Houston enticing Masters students or spouses of H1-B holders (holding some technology degree) with H1-B promises [Masters students on F1 visa are good targets, because they can work for 12 months if their Optional Practical Training (OPT) gets approved]. A company outsources projects to these consultants, and the consultants pay these people following any schedule they like. Someone I know was hired by one of these consultants, and then she managed to get a job offer with H1-B sponsoring. The consultancy created lot of problems when she tried to quit, and threatened all sorts of repercussions.
may be unrelated but this reinforces my observation that moat successful immigrant business owners get rich by abusing their fellow countrymen who arrived to the states later, dont have paperwork in order, lack language skills, etc.
TLDR: Overhaul H1b L1 visas. Replace work restrictions with 6yr temp Green Cards equivalent EAD (work authorization).
Here's how I think the offshoring model works with many of these companies:
1) US company wants to get rid of its aging workforce (benefits costs will be too high, due to rising insurnace costs)
2) US (IBM, Accenture, HP etc) and Indian (Infosys, TCS etc) outsourcing companies bid on a project, get trained as replacements, jobs get offshored.
3) Quality complaints and rising costs of offshoring/outsourcing makes the company end the contract, and start hiring younger employees.
4) Profit! Firing / Laying off older employees in the US companies is not easy. But taking this route, the employer gets to wash hands off from the rising costs issue.
This problem with tech workers paid low is because:
- Healthcare and Insurance is broken in the US (it works for those who are healthy and are in a company with younger workforce)
- H1b is basically a high tech indentured labor visa: If an employer is willing, the employee on H1b can be treated as such (no job mobility, no hikes, no option to even raise a voice against something going wrong). Fortunately, those on H1b visa as employees of actual companies (not outsourcing firms), they are treated much better, and it doesn't feel like indentured labor.
Solution?
Turn H1b, L1 and F1 OPT into time limited Green Card equivalents EADs:
- An international student graduating with a degree gets a 3 yr green card equivalent work authorization
- Once the student green card expires, give them a 6 yr green card (instead of an h1b). At the end of 6 yrs, if the employee has not been sponsored for an employment based permanent green card, he/she has to leave.
- No limits on the number of these green cards available.
- No H1b or L1 visa work restrictions. H1 and L1 dependents can work with a similar EAD.
How will this work?
- Giving true job mobility and freedom to switch jobs at any time, without giving the employer any hold in the immigration process, helps bump up the wages for the employees (US citizens or those on 3yr temp green card).
- Employee has no fear of job loss / retribution from employer.
- Employer has to pay at market or above market salaries. Or else employee will jump ship.
- This will automatically regulate the number of jobs that get outsourced to teams/companies that genuinely address the problem if inefficiencies, and immediately create a penalty for those companies that are body shops running on indentured labor.
- Having H1 and L1 dependents be able to work (with the new green card equivalent EAD), enables the primary visa holder to risk it and start a new venture.
About me: I came to the US on F1, worked on OPT, got H1. now sick of the US immigration system, I'm moving to Canada soon! :D
What are you talking about? East Bay is part of the SF Bay Area, which is consisted of cities such as Newark (the city in this article), Union City, Fremont, etc.
Here in the Bay Area we have East Bay, South Bay, Peninsula, etc
[+] [-] tiff_seattle|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] youzicha|7 years ago|reply
http://alexyar.tumblr.com/post/156649015342/anyway-heres-the...
[+] [-] curun1r|7 years ago|reply
But I think there is a better way to fix the program and not have the kind of collateral damage that your plan would create. It's a method that's in use in many parts of the world and it works well...ratios. Let companies hire as many DHS-cleared immigrants as they want provided they also employ the requisite number of US citizens in similar roles.
[+] [-] jarsj|7 years ago|reply
The solution is "EXTREMELY" strict penalties including prison time for board of companies who indulge in it willingly.
[+] [-] dragonwriter|7 years ago|reply
Why not just eliminate the employer-sponsored H-1B and allow individuals who aren't personally barred from entry to pay for temporary residency and work permit on an annual basis, with prices that escalate with higher demand?
[+] [-] setum|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BLanen|7 years ago|reply
How could a company in Ohio compete?
Would have to adjust to living expenses of the location. But, as far a I know, H1B visas aren't tied to a location.
[+] [-] malikNF|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thisisit|7 years ago|reply
This is rather slippery way to paint the picture. And from the looks of it this is more of an abuse of the F-1/OPT visas program. These visas haven't got the coverage as much as H1B program:
https://www.computerworld.com/article/2495580/it-careers/for...
Unlike H-1 the F-1/OPT visas don't have any wage requirements. It rather asks employers to attest that people on F-1 are paid according to someone with similar duties.
Workers were paid $800 a month during training, he said.
The whole training thing is another sword of damocles hanging on people getting H1/F1 visas. I have heard stories about Infosys suing people for money if they leave before serving 2 years on H1 with Infosys. The route Infosys take is that company has paid for training and needs to claw back that amount from these employees.
[+] [-] hocuspocus|7 years ago|reply
Other visas are also abused (J-1, L-1, even O-1). It wouldn't be that hard to have a saner immigration path for skilled workers, like Canada, Australia and many European countries.
[+] [-] hemantv|7 years ago|reply
Desi consulting shops are most to blame for. They learned tricks from big guys, it's easy to make big guys change their ways but not all these moms and pops shops.
[+] [-] commonsense123|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Bahamut|7 years ago|reply
Is it $175000 in back wages per person, or total for all 12 people? The wording is a little sloppy here.
[+] [-] btown|7 years ago|reply
Given that's what one might have paid for only two of those workers for a year at their expected salaries, this seems woefully inadequate as a deterrent.
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cheriot|7 years ago|reply
Turn H1B into an auction. Lotteries are a terrible way to allocate a scare resource.
[+] [-] candiodari|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bduerst|7 years ago|reply
Companies could hire immigrants for less than what the prevailing wage is of citizens working the same job in the same area - then lay off the citizens.
[+] [-] jen729w|7 years ago|reply
1. Bank outsources to vendor. Typically IBM. “It’ll be cheaper!”
2. IBM is, initially, cheaper - because all of their staff are in India of course.
3. But they can’t do the job from India because they need to be here talking to their colleagues at the bank.
4. So they get flown to Melbourne, but still on Indian wages, where the poor souls live ten to an apartment because they can’t afford anything else.
5. The bank has now saved money by “offshoring” despite the workers actually being here in Australia.
It’s a disgrace and I have no idea why it isn’t in the news.
[+] [-] wslh|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 49bc|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sanxiyn|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TangoTrotFox|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neuronexmachina|7 years ago|reply
https://www.computerworld.com/article/3096103/it-careers/the...
[+] [-] booblik|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] candiodari|7 years ago|reply
Or maybe it's just the pendulum swining back I guess. When democrats and republicans were young, new, parties, republicans were definitely left-wing and democrats were right-wing. Maybe it's just switching around again.
[+] [-] diebeforei485|7 years ago|reply
It is very common for employers in the EVC model to pay well below market wages, and often withhold, or ask employees to pay back some of the money under the table, making the actual wage much lower. The employees are pretty much powerless - if they refuse, they would get fired and be forced to leave the country.
These employers often add fake projects or fake experience to their employees' resumes when offering them to a vendor or client.
There is only one solution - a massive clampdown on third-party placements on H-1B employers, as is already done on L-1 and STEM OPT employers.
[+] [-] mc32|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sg0|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smsm42|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bduerst|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elvirs|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justboxing|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] calvinbhai|7 years ago|reply
Here's how I think the offshoring model works with many of these companies:
1) US company wants to get rid of its aging workforce (benefits costs will be too high, due to rising insurnace costs) 2) US (IBM, Accenture, HP etc) and Indian (Infosys, TCS etc) outsourcing companies bid on a project, get trained as replacements, jobs get offshored. 3) Quality complaints and rising costs of offshoring/outsourcing makes the company end the contract, and start hiring younger employees. 4) Profit! Firing / Laying off older employees in the US companies is not easy. But taking this route, the employer gets to wash hands off from the rising costs issue.
This problem with tech workers paid low is because: - Healthcare and Insurance is broken in the US (it works for those who are healthy and are in a company with younger workforce) - H1b is basically a high tech indentured labor visa: If an employer is willing, the employee on H1b can be treated as such (no job mobility, no hikes, no option to even raise a voice against something going wrong). Fortunately, those on H1b visa as employees of actual companies (not outsourcing firms), they are treated much better, and it doesn't feel like indentured labor.
Solution? Turn H1b, L1 and F1 OPT into time limited Green Card equivalents EADs: - An international student graduating with a degree gets a 3 yr green card equivalent work authorization - Once the student green card expires, give them a 6 yr green card (instead of an h1b). At the end of 6 yrs, if the employee has not been sponsored for an employment based permanent green card, he/she has to leave. - No limits on the number of these green cards available. - No H1b or L1 visa work restrictions. H1 and L1 dependents can work with a similar EAD.
How will this work? - Giving true job mobility and freedom to switch jobs at any time, without giving the employer any hold in the immigration process, helps bump up the wages for the employees (US citizens or those on 3yr temp green card). - Employee has no fear of job loss / retribution from employer. - Employer has to pay at market or above market salaries. Or else employee will jump ship. - This will automatically regulate the number of jobs that get outsourced to teams/companies that genuinely address the problem if inefficiencies, and immediately create a penalty for those companies that are body shops running on indentured labor. - Having H1 and L1 dependents be able to work (with the new green card equivalent EAD), enables the primary visa holder to risk it and start a new venture.
About me: I came to the US on F1, worked on OPT, got H1. now sick of the US immigration system, I'm moving to Canada soon! :D
[+] [-] greatamerican|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] sctb|7 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
[+] [-] commonsense123|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] TAForObvReasons|7 years ago|reply
The real fix, which is incredibly unpopular in certain circles, is a labor union
[+] [-] stale2002|7 years ago|reply
If you actually want to talk about wage suppression, lets focus on the low wage jobs first, shall we?
[+] [-] vkou|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thisisit|7 years ago|reply
Here's the content:
A dozen Indian workers at an East Bay technology firm were promised salaries of up to $8,300
Cloudwick Technologies of Newark has been ordered to pay about
Seriously, what is this East Bay area? Google turns up nothing.
Edit: Thank for pointing out my mistake. Looks like my understanding of US geography isn't that great.
[+] [-] Cookingboy|7 years ago|reply
Here in the Bay Area we have East Bay, South Bay, Peninsula, etc
[+] [-] paxys|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pkaye|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] diebeforei485|7 years ago|reply