I'm sure some people react this way, but to me what he describes sounds more like a trait of being over-emotional and a bit immature in dealing with the stress, than being specifically introvert. I don't see how being extrovert would change the situations described, except maybe that person would get into a verbal fight-back to defend it's hurt ego? And that would surely make the situation even worse. From my point of view (and I consider myself very introvert) the only correct answer to someone telling you that you fucked up something is to get over you ego, take the blame (if it's yours) and try to fix the problem asap.
>About an hour later I come up with the snappy
comeback
> But I never figure it out “in the moment”
Nobody ever does. My attempt at solving this is to eliminate as much of the "surprise!" moments as I can by delaying things. It doesn't work always, but I have found saying no to things initially helps a lot. Somebody comes to bug you, someone just wants to talk NOW, ask them for some time. More often than not, we know what the other person would say. Think about it clearly and then talk with them.
As this doesn't always works,one more technique is "let silence speak". Instead of rambling about and saying things you would regret later, just stay silent and ask for more time to think and talk later.
Yeah, seriously, this isn't some introvert/extrovert thing. Most people are really bad at confrontation. I confronted an extrovert who owed me a couple hundred bucks once, and he was most definitely, definitely "stun-locked." It takes a pretty aggressive personality to think on their feet when faced with a personal attack.
Cliff Click (https://twitter.com/cliff_click), the author of the presentation is probably one of the smartest and fastest talking people around. He wrote the original Hotspot JVM and have done tons of interesting work.
I think salary notifications in general are a sign of the company compensating in a fundamentally unfair way. Unless you are being hired to negotiate, paying you based on your negotiation skills seems unfair. It's harder -- a lot harder -- but I'd encourage the CEOs reading this to create a compensation scheme that is "fair by design" and pays correctly without the need to negotiate. Here's what we do, though I imagine there are likely even better ways available: https://blog.expensify.com/2016/06/17/expensifys-comp-review...
A very important part I think is "the fool was not me". It's important to not to hear others and to take your time to analyze your thoughts (it's not an introvert thing of course).
First you may want to experience your feelings (you feel hurt, vulnerable, angry), but then try to understand what made you angry. Maybe you have an inner need for contribution and the other person states that instead of contributing, you made something terribly stupid (from his point of view) so you feel hurt.
And then, think about the abusive manager in this case. what may he feel, what may be his needs? Isn't is possible that he felt ashamed because he needed stability, but that need was undermined during his presentation?
Most of these are in the presentation in a form or another, but in fact this is a mediating thechnique by Marshall Rosenberg, called NVC. Anyway, take your time. Don't be ashamed to look into your heart. This is easier said than done, but it's possible to get better in it.
I disagree. Introversion at it's core is about sensitivity to over stimulation.
This sensitivity to over stimulation is not something that you can control, it's baked into the biology, into the neural connectivity of the brain.
This means that something that is not very stimulating to you, can be practically overwhelming to me.
It's not insecurity, it's not emotional issues. It's biology.
And turning it into something that sensitive people should be able to overcome - turning it into a personal failing is not helpful.
Lol. Does this thing happen in real life and are there adults taking this crap constantly in their work environment?
You don't need "comeback" words, you really just need to report this bullying behavior immediately to who's in charge(if that's not your boss) or simply quit for fucks sake.
I have struggled to work with similar issues in the past (especially the initial part of the presentation) and appreciate the author addressing this. More often than not I go back to the strategy of separating the opinions from the person.
The separation of opinions from the person changes the dynamics in my head. I still find it hard to work with people who don't do that separation. Discussions with them can be tricky. If I am fortunate, I come out of the discussion learning a lot with wider spectrum of things to consider. However in some occasions I am just drained intellectually and emotionally with opinions such as: I have done this before and just trust me.
I feel soft emotional skills are as much important as core intellectual competency of a person. More study/awareness on this front is always welcome!
The person in question forgets that some people build their whole careers on how to manage people and situations like that. You'll always be taken advantage of by people like these until you finally learn that coming up with a comeback is not really a creative problem, but rather a problem of military-like training in communications.
In the rare scenario someone would come up to me this way, I would have already been prepared by knowing what exact wrong things they themselves did in the past (not because I am a horrible person, but because people did and would take advantage of me this way in the past). I would directly retaliate and then make sure the person in question learns this lesson for the rest of our relationship. Rinse and repeat.
More importantly, the fact that the person in question can approach you this way and in such a manner is already a good indicator of either you working with someone who is an incredible idiot or there're some organisational issues.
Took me a while to find your comment which I fully agree with.
Most managers are unwilling to deal with situations like that. They immediately reduce the importance of it and try to (gently or not so gently) coerce both sides to just get back to work.
It's kind of sad but also rather interesting to learn to deal with such bullies quickly and efficiently.
(1) "Remember those 20 minutes of outage on production because you couldn't be bothered to check for a nil, smartass? How about you get the fuck out of here and let me finish this?"
(2) "If you never screwed up at work in your life then by all means, please fire me. Right here and now. No? Then get the fuck away, my contract doesn't include listening to people with anger issues. I can hand you a therapist bill later if you really wanna talk. I take $150 an hour. Bye."
...are the rough formats I almost always use, depending on if I caught the attacker making a mistake in the past or not. Bullies aren't ethical. They don't care if they hurt you. Most of them actually want to hurt you. And as much as we want to believe in organizational systems, my experience has been that 99% of managers simply don't care.
We must learn to defend ourselves. And yes that includes being aggressive yourself. As a guy who was severely physically bullied as a teenager I can tell you that bullies don't listen and respond to logic. They are hyenas: if they sense you are weak they will push their attack even further. Only when you show teeth and bite back hard will they back off.
If you have a team of whatever sport, and the goalkeeper fails to catch the ball, you don't blame the goalkeeper. It's a team effort.
If the goalkeeper is busy catching balls is because the defense didn't work, because the forwards' attack wasn't working, or because the coach strategy was ineffective... etc. You get the idea.
Then, just like goals, bugs will always happen.
Unless you refused to do your job, or went against protocols/procedures, you should not be treated this way.
What you do is try to understand what happened and try to make it better next time.
Of course it's bullying. It's also a thing that happens in reality.
Imagine that it's a paying client. You can't go run to HR. You can't just say "take your money and leave". It's not ideal, but yeah, you're going to have to deal with this level of conflict and confrontation sometime in your life. (Heaven forbid you go through divorce negotiations, like the author; "your crap is crap" is probably the nicest thing you'd hear all day.)
You also assume that the attacker's words are rooted in fact. One strategy that 'warriors' intentionally use against others is to undermine them and make them feel threatened. It works remarkably well against tech people because we put so much importance on our skills.
It's uncool, but it happens. Better that you be prepared.
Don't analyze too much, just let it pour off. Ask if there's anything to be learned, if no, then don't bother.
In fight or flight it helps to control your breath to get back brain control. Good advice about walking away, leave the battle before you get more injuries. It might be awkward to walk out of a meeting, but at least the other party will recognizing they did something wrong.
For the red people, it can help improving your relationship, spend more time with them! It's no surprise that the green people are the ones you've spent most time with.
Good advice to be prepared, never get walked into a room!
IMO it's not self-awareness that most people lack but lack of willingness to self-control fueled by the notion that 'being natural' is a good thing.
Given that the will is there, the best way to influence your behavior is mental modeling because how you see things will affect not only your mind but your body and imagination is a way to see what you want to see.
Whether the model is correct or not doesn't matter. Half-believing it is sufficient. That's how superstition works. Beware that models, not unlike drugs, not only can but often do have side-effects.
The following is stated with total compassion not criticism.
This reminds me of the fine grained steps that non-technical people will write down when handling computer tasks. Every click and every menu mentioned. Even down to describing what the icons look like. Then each step will be followed with exacting caution. The interaction never becomes comfortable or natural. Instead it stutters along from one step to the next. Like counting off steps when dancing.
Whereas a skilled user will intuitively understand the UI cues. Even in an unfamiliar situation, where they don't know what menu or setting they need, they will move around trying things just to see what happens. The difference between skilled and unskilled is not planning, or knowing an ever larger number of correct steps. It's about a knowledge of the basics and a feeling of safety in taking risks.
When I read this post I see someone not comfortable enough in their own skin. Perhaps flagging people and making battle plans will help get him started, but imho the goal should be to gain a level of comfort that you can act without careful planning. That will allow you to avoid being 'stun locked'.
The path to being skilled might need a hefty dose of 'careful battle plans', especially for people who lack a certain intuitive ability to figure this out by trying.
I can't speak for everyone, but looking at my progress in this area, it wasn't enough to just take risks and understanding the basics. They were crucial elements, I do agree with you on that, but trying to not be methodical did not help. I needed both, and still do. I have lists for even very simple interactions that really should be 'natural' by now. It took me more than a decade to realize and accept that this is the only thing that works for me.
It's a bit like a tone-deaf person learning a musical instrument. Through immense effort and 'fine-grained, mechanical learning' they might actually get pretty good, but they're still tone-deaf, and might never become as 'fluent' as others. If you're that type of person, the approach you describe can be frustrating and relatively ineffective.
That said, I do think your advice applies very much to most people, and to some degree to all people :). I suppose finding a skilled teacher than can help you figure out what works for you is crucial in this regard.
I totally agree with you. I've seen this in people before and honestly would like to understand more.
I have a friend who is very analytical but gets flustered by many social situations and conflicts. When I ask him what's going on he explains he doesn't understand how to act or what's going on. I've no idea how to help. I've developed instincts, through experience, rather than calculated responses. My instincts can be off and need adjustment over time but it's a totally different way of reacting. Much less taxing on me emotionally than what he goes through. I don't need to think I just need to practise. But this doesn't seem to work for some people and I have no idea why?
I remember in my late teens and early twenties experiencing this but I just grew out of it. How do you help someone develop interpersonal skills and instincts?
> Instead it stutters along from one step to the next. Like counting off steps when dancing.
My dance instructor, a master dancer, said that for dancing the key is you need a MAP:
1. Memorize
2. Automate
3. Personalize
Memorize the steps and commit them to memory. Then automate them so you can do them without thinking. Then personalize and add your own flourishes.
It’s a matter of mastery and practice. This is true both for dancing and for dealing with emotionally charged situations, and for pretty much anything that you haven’t yet mastered.
The path to intuitive understanding goes through written/memorized steps when you are starting from nothing. The intuition is effectively accumulation of enough knowledge and confidence.
On the other hand I have found it immensely useful to form a habit of refusing to respond to accusations, demands and threats immediately. Instead I (try to) listen, maybe even ask some questions, retreat and then respond. This did not develop intuitively like mastery of computer UIs – it required retrospecting on certain situations many times over and promising myself on how I will act in similar situation in future.
I can understand where this is coming from tbf, I used to be the same. I was lucky though, with life and experience and such, the social interaction side became more natural and fluent, and getting interrupted by whatever reason doesn't produce the same response anymore.
Mind you, what I do that requires focus isn't the most exciting or difficult thing anymore either, so that might also be a factor.
Third, I work in much less dickish environment. Nobody will come up at you and start yelling, that's just unprofessional. With that in mind, I don't know what I'd do if that were to happen. Depends on the situation / reason / person / etc.
I don't think this is true. Your brain is probably quite different to mine and to your neighbors. Brains are different to each other.
My brain is easily overwhelmed, it's highly sensitive. This means I cannot respond fluidly in stressful situations.
Having a highly sensitive nervous system means that you can pick up on subtle detail easily. But it also means that too much stimulation really effects your ability to process.
This sensitivity is a deep trait, it's down in the biology. You can't think your way out of it, you can't overcome it. It's a deep deep part of a person and someone without sensitivity can have a hard time understanding what it is like - and this is where your answer comes from.
You do not understand what it is like to live with high sensitivity. It is both a blessing and a curse.
I am highly sensitive. This means I am highly emotional, highly creative, very intuitive - I read people easily. But it also means I can't endure busy environments: crowds, large meetings, rock concerts, sporting events. Not without consequences: confusion, tiredness, stress, etc.
We are different creatures, you and I. But that does not make us better or worse, just different, that's all. We should learn to respect each other for our shortcomings and our strengths.
If this is happening to you, check the laws and guidelines about bullying at work in your country / jurisdiction.
If the laws don't help, or you aren't up for that kind of fight, perhaps look for another job and think about how you suss out if this will happen in the next job. Perhaps get a job via a friend who can vouch.
[+] [-] ivanhoe|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kmbriedis|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gravity_123|7 years ago|reply
> But I never figure it out “in the moment”
Nobody ever does. My attempt at solving this is to eliminate as much of the "surprise!" moments as I can by delaying things. It doesn't work always, but I have found saying no to things initially helps a lot. Somebody comes to bug you, someone just wants to talk NOW, ask them for some time. More often than not, we know what the other person would say. Think about it clearly and then talk with them.
As this doesn't always works,one more technique is "let silence speak". Instead of rambling about and saying things you would regret later, just stay silent and ask for more time to think and talk later.
[+] [-] zasz|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] guitarbill|7 years ago|reply
It's also weird that people are deeply uncomfortable with silence, even introverts. Silence is golden.
[+] [-] kasperni|7 years ago|reply
Cliff Click (https://twitter.com/cliff_click), the author of the presentation is probably one of the smartest and fastest talking people around. He wrote the original Hotspot JVM and have done tons of interesting work.
[+] [-] obl|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] quinthar|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xab9|7 years ago|reply
First you may want to experience your feelings (you feel hurt, vulnerable, angry), but then try to understand what made you angry. Maybe you have an inner need for contribution and the other person states that instead of contributing, you made something terribly stupid (from his point of view) so you feel hurt.
And then, think about the abusive manager in this case. what may he feel, what may be his needs? Isn't is possible that he felt ashamed because he needed stability, but that need was undermined during his presentation?
Most of these are in the presentation in a form or another, but in fact this is a mediating thechnique by Marshall Rosenberg, called NVC. Anyway, take your time. Don't be ashamed to look into your heart. This is easier said than done, but it's possible to get better in it.
[+] [-] stapled_socks|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ghgfhgfhn|7 years ago|reply
This means that something that is not very stimulating to you, can be practically overwhelming to me.
It's not insecurity, it's not emotional issues. It's biology.
And turning it into something that sensitive people should be able to overcome - turning it into a personal failing is not helpful.
https://www.psychologies.co.uk/self/revenge-of-the-introvert...
[+] [-] going_to_800|7 years ago|reply
You don't need "comeback" words, you really just need to report this bullying behavior immediately to who's in charge(if that's not your boss) or simply quit for fucks sake.
[+] [-] collyw|7 years ago|reply
Can people not take the occasional bit of criticism any more?
[+] [-] more-coffee|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] charisma123|7 years ago|reply
The separation of opinions from the person changes the dynamics in my head. I still find it hard to work with people who don't do that separation. Discussions with them can be tricky. If I am fortunate, I come out of the discussion learning a lot with wider spectrum of things to consider. However in some occasions I am just drained intellectually and emotionally with opinions such as: I have done this before and just trust me.
I feel soft emotional skills are as much important as core intellectual competency of a person. More study/awareness on this front is always welcome!
[Edit 1: Typos]
[+] [-] heavenlyblue|7 years ago|reply
In the rare scenario someone would come up to me this way, I would have already been prepared by knowing what exact wrong things they themselves did in the past (not because I am a horrible person, but because people did and would take advantage of me this way in the past). I would directly retaliate and then make sure the person in question learns this lesson for the rest of our relationship. Rinse and repeat.
More importantly, the fact that the person in question can approach you this way and in such a manner is already a good indicator of either you working with someone who is an incredible idiot or there're some organisational issues.
[+] [-] pdimitar|7 years ago|reply
Most managers are unwilling to deal with situations like that. They immediately reduce the importance of it and try to (gently or not so gently) coerce both sides to just get back to work.
It's kind of sad but also rather interesting to learn to deal with such bullies quickly and efficiently.
(1) "Remember those 20 minutes of outage on production because you couldn't be bothered to check for a nil, smartass? How about you get the fuck out of here and let me finish this?"
(2) "If you never screwed up at work in your life then by all means, please fire me. Right here and now. No? Then get the fuck away, my contract doesn't include listening to people with anger issues. I can hand you a therapist bill later if you really wanna talk. I take $150 an hour. Bye."
...are the rough formats I almost always use, depending on if I caught the attacker making a mistake in the past or not. Bullies aren't ethical. They don't care if they hurt you. Most of them actually want to hurt you. And as much as we want to believe in organizational systems, my experience has been that 99% of managers simply don't care.
We must learn to defend ourselves. And yes that includes being aggressive yourself. As a guy who was severely physically bullied as a teenager I can tell you that bullies don't listen and respond to logic. They are hyenas: if they sense you are weak they will push their attack even further. Only when you show teeth and bite back hard will they back off.
[+] [-] partycoder|7 years ago|reply
If you have a team of whatever sport, and the goalkeeper fails to catch the ball, you don't blame the goalkeeper. It's a team effort.
If the goalkeeper is busy catching balls is because the defense didn't work, because the forwards' attack wasn't working, or because the coach strategy was ineffective... etc. You get the idea.
Then, just like goals, bugs will always happen.
Unless you refused to do your job, or went against protocols/procedures, you should not be treated this way.
What you do is try to understand what happened and try to make it better next time.
[+] [-] ianhowson|7 years ago|reply
Imagine that it's a paying client. You can't go run to HR. You can't just say "take your money and leave". It's not ideal, but yeah, you're going to have to deal with this level of conflict and confrontation sometime in your life. (Heaven forbid you go through divorce negotiations, like the author; "your crap is crap" is probably the nicest thing you'd hear all day.)
You also assume that the attacker's words are rooted in fact. One strategy that 'warriors' intentionally use against others is to undermine them and make them feel threatened. It works remarkably well against tech people because we put so much importance on our skills.
It's uncool, but it happens. Better that you be prepared.
[+] [-] ghazak|7 years ago|reply
Seems like some good advice though.
[+] [-] petecooper|7 years ago|reply
I'm getting a 404 on the current OP URL, but this works:
http://cliffc.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/2018_AWarO...
[+] [-] wpietri|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] z3t4|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WCityMike|7 years ago|reply
http://www.cliffc.org/blog/2017/07/30/introverts-emotional-p...
[+] [-] donpark|7 years ago|reply
Given that the will is there, the best way to influence your behavior is mental modeling because how you see things will affect not only your mind but your body and imagination is a way to see what you want to see.
Whether the model is correct or not doesn't matter. Half-believing it is sufficient. That's how superstition works. Beware that models, not unlike drugs, not only can but often do have side-effects.
[+] [-] johngalt|7 years ago|reply
This reminds me of the fine grained steps that non-technical people will write down when handling computer tasks. Every click and every menu mentioned. Even down to describing what the icons look like. Then each step will be followed with exacting caution. The interaction never becomes comfortable or natural. Instead it stutters along from one step to the next. Like counting off steps when dancing.
Whereas a skilled user will intuitively understand the UI cues. Even in an unfamiliar situation, where they don't know what menu or setting they need, they will move around trying things just to see what happens. The difference between skilled and unskilled is not planning, or knowing an ever larger number of correct steps. It's about a knowledge of the basics and a feeling of safety in taking risks.
When I read this post I see someone not comfortable enough in their own skin. Perhaps flagging people and making battle plans will help get him started, but imho the goal should be to gain a level of comfort that you can act without careful planning. That will allow you to avoid being 'stun locked'.
[+] [-] mercer|7 years ago|reply
I can't speak for everyone, but looking at my progress in this area, it wasn't enough to just take risks and understanding the basics. They were crucial elements, I do agree with you on that, but trying to not be methodical did not help. I needed both, and still do. I have lists for even very simple interactions that really should be 'natural' by now. It took me more than a decade to realize and accept that this is the only thing that works for me.
It's a bit like a tone-deaf person learning a musical instrument. Through immense effort and 'fine-grained, mechanical learning' they might actually get pretty good, but they're still tone-deaf, and might never become as 'fluent' as others. If you're that type of person, the approach you describe can be frustrating and relatively ineffective.
That said, I do think your advice applies very much to most people, and to some degree to all people :). I suppose finding a skilled teacher than can help you figure out what works for you is crucial in this regard.
[+] [-] xupybd|7 years ago|reply
I have a friend who is very analytical but gets flustered by many social situations and conflicts. When I ask him what's going on he explains he doesn't understand how to act or what's going on. I've no idea how to help. I've developed instincts, through experience, rather than calculated responses. My instincts can be off and need adjustment over time but it's a totally different way of reacting. Much less taxing on me emotionally than what he goes through. I don't need to think I just need to practise. But this doesn't seem to work for some people and I have no idea why?
I remember in my late teens and early twenties experiencing this but I just grew out of it. How do you help someone develop interpersonal skills and instincts?
[+] [-] unoti|7 years ago|reply
My dance instructor, a master dancer, said that for dancing the key is you need a MAP: 1. Memorize 2. Automate 3. Personalize
Memorize the steps and commit them to memory. Then automate them so you can do them without thinking. Then personalize and add your own flourishes.
It’s a matter of mastery and practice. This is true both for dancing and for dealing with emotionally charged situations, and for pretty much anything that you haven’t yet mastered.
[+] [-] watwut|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wojtekkru|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Cthulhu_|7 years ago|reply
Mind you, what I do that requires focus isn't the most exciting or difficult thing anymore either, so that might also be a factor.
Third, I work in much less dickish environment. Nobody will come up at you and start yelling, that's just unprofessional. With that in mind, I don't know what I'd do if that were to happen. Depends on the situation / reason / person / etc.
[+] [-] ghgfhgfhn|7 years ago|reply
My brain is easily overwhelmed, it's highly sensitive. This means I cannot respond fluidly in stressful situations.
Having a highly sensitive nervous system means that you can pick up on subtle detail easily. But it also means that too much stimulation really effects your ability to process.
This sensitivity is a deep trait, it's down in the biology. You can't think your way out of it, you can't overcome it. It's a deep deep part of a person and someone without sensitivity can have a hard time understanding what it is like - and this is where your answer comes from.
You do not understand what it is like to live with high sensitivity. It is both a blessing and a curse.
I am highly sensitive. This means I am highly emotional, highly creative, very intuitive - I read people easily. But it also means I can't endure busy environments: crowds, large meetings, rock concerts, sporting events. Not without consequences: confusion, tiredness, stress, etc.
We are different creatures, you and I. But that does not make us better or worse, just different, that's all. We should learn to respect each other for our shortcomings and our strengths.
https://www.psychologies.co.uk/self/revenge-of-the-introvert...
[+] [-] quickthrower2|7 years ago|reply
If the laws don't help, or you aren't up for that kind of fight, perhaps look for another job and think about how you suss out if this will happen in the next job. Perhaps get a job via a friend who can vouch.
[+] [-] xchip|7 years ago|reply
The standard should be assertiveness.
[+] [-] baxtr|7 years ago|reply