I'm a 30 year old virgin, graduated with tech-related masters degree, and still a virgin.
I don't resent women, I love women and some of my best friends are women, but I can't see myself ever having a physical experience due to my physical shortcomings.
I'm well under-averagely endowed, a member of an undesirable race, and quite frankly think the age for acting as a goof for me has passed. I don't know how/when to ask women out, and I'm afraid if it'll be interpreted as sexual harassment. I'm no good looking chap for it to be considered flirting, might as well endure loneliness than social suicide.
I cry myself to sleep some nights, but at least I get to live a life where I can feed myself and distract myself by helping others through work/volunteering.
Cherish your loved ones, and don't take them for granted. The pain of never having those experiences is something I'll never wish for others.
Go to therapy. You may well be below average in looks, and have to settle for a partner with below average looks, but everyone has shortcomings and I'm not convinced you couldn't find a life partner that would make you happy if you tried. It sounds like whatever your physical deficits may be, you are also insecure, fearful of rejection, and not working on improving your social skills. Don't quit before you've even tried.
> I'm well under-averagely endowed, a member of an undesirable race, and quite frankly think the age for acting as a goof for me has passed. I don't know how/when to ask women out, and I'm afraid if it'll be interpreted as sexual harassment. I'm no good looking chap for it to be considered flirting, might as well endure loneliness than social suicide.
You are sabotaging yourself here.
You won't find a girlfriend as long as you believe this story to be true. Girls don't care that much about the looks of guys, but they do care that they are clean, well dressed, etc. They also care about confidence and successful men. But even then it doesn't matter that much.
We have an expression "On every pot there is a lid that fits". I've met girls that were attracted to older men, to asian guys, etc. You don't have to be attractive to the average girl, you just have to find that one person that fits with you.
First, I sympathize with your pain. Don't let your lack of sex be something that reduces your value because it doesn't. For example, a masters degree is an achievement! That means you have a square mind on your shoulders and are willing to work hard. Those are admirable qualities.
I'll also say try not to listen to closely to the stereotypes. I see two in there, one that flirting will be considered harassment if you aren't good looking and the second is that women (or people in general) can't be sexually attracted to someone who isn't "good looking." The reality is many people are a lot more open minded than that. Tinder helps, and if you're more open minded as well about whom you're willing to be with, you might find someone fun and be surprised that you were never as unlovable as you thought you were.
Start failing. If you want a different outcome change your behavior and take some chances.
You will probably fail a lot because it's difficult, compatibility is rare, and we do a terrible job preparing men with appropriate dating behaviors. It can be very difficult but also rewarding.
Most people seek mates of higher value+loyalty to ensure their survival. The prevalence of this behavior is a testament to its evolutionary success.
Do you sincerely believe that you're a low value mate, or are you seeking to avoid discomfort?
This is getting more and more common. A couple of reasons for this:
- the world is dividing into “social haves” and “social have-nots”. It’s not a surprise that as wealth and inequality have taken off dramatically, we’d see social and sexual repercussions.
- ppl really underestimate the role community has played in American history in “hooking up” people and playing matchmaking. I know going to bars looks awesome in the movies and is indeed a cool thing for meeting men/women, but it’s inherently not scalable for a society and really only possible for the subset who can conquer social anxiety
- due to financial constraints, people are living in “extended adolescence” longer and longer. Also is a consequence of ppl getting more and more education. Hard to date as actively when you live with your parents
Really want to emphasize that the loneliness of “loveless men” is one of the very underestimated sad things of the late 20th and early 21st century. Despite hollywood tropes, men, who have smaller social networks than women, typically benefit
more from relationships and suffer more after their dissolution.
Timothy McVeigh, of the Oklahoma City bombing, the Columbine killers, as well as many of the September 11th hijackers, were all virgins. Many authors and postmodern theorists have made this connection.
This is not an isolated issue. It links together with the lack of economic growth of the last 40 years, the rise of autocracy throughout the world, and the failure of capitalism and secularism to dictate any kind of end goal, purpose, or mission statement other than a kind of bland “do what you want, be you”.
Angela Nagle very effectively even links this to the growth of populism and even the alt-right in her book, Kill All Normies.
It's upsetting this is getting flagged and people are flagging comments left and right. Sure, some people are saying objectionable things, but shutting down discussion of real issues that affect people is how people become alienated and distraught and suffer alone.
The less fucks you give, the easier it is to get laid, in my experience. Act interested, don't do anything actively offputting, and act when the opportunity arises. It gets wildly easier as you get older, for some reason.
I felt women had the right to go about everyday life and enjoy a night out without having anyone approach them.
You hear those cliches of teenage fumbling - well, I wasn't a teenager, so I found I knew what to do. I also found it was exciting and pleasurable. Some people say the first time isn't good, but it was good.
I was lucky when she fell for me, she gave me complete and unconditional love and that's rare. And I'm lucky to have had it.
Based on the ending remarks, I am inferring this is intended as sympathetic and supportive for people who self identify as incels. But I will point out that there is very, very likely a cause and effect relationship between some very positive outcomes he describes and his description of fundamental respect for women driving his reluctance to try to pick anyone up, at least in part.
I think he is romanticizing the things he did not have that he imagines others do have. The reality is that most people don't feel like every relationship they had was a positive and life enhancing experience.
Some things he avoided:
Fathering a child in his teens and becoming permanently trapped in poverty because of it.
Acquiring an STD, which can include AIDS.
Having a violent encounter with another man over female infidelity or other traumatizing relationship drama.
During my divorce, my perspective on experience changed. One man I knew during that time was kind of a pick up artist. He had a lot of sexual experience, but he told me he had never been in love before.
I had gotten married at age 19 to another 19 year old. I had no previous experience with younger men. It was very hard for me to accept that anyone younger would be interested. The concept seemed incredibly alien.
I had experience, but this was completely new territory for me. The pick up artist I knew also had experience, but being in love was completely new territory for him.
I talked with men who were older than me. They, too, were still having new experiences. The fact that they were experienced did not mean they weren't also stumbling their way forward with new experiences.
I am sorry this man has these negative feelings, but I cannot simply accept his very negative framing and conclusions unquestioningly. I don't think he has ever really tried to find what was positive about the path he took. The negativity is simply a foregone conclusion in his mind.
I'm not convinced this is really the best message for trying to somehow reach out to people who identify as incels and somehow be encouraging, especially given the subtext here that the assumption is that if you don't resolve this or get help with it or something, you, too, might do something terrible like what happened in Toronto. The author does not indicate he did anything terrible like that due to his own lack of experience and negative feelings about it. Whether he did or not, obviously, it isn't true that simply being celibate and unhappy about it will turn you into a terrorist.
Perhaps we could come up with something to say about this that is more constructive than unquestioningly accepting that unwanted celibacy is the real and true cause of a terrorist act and, thus, others who are similarly celibate are similarly terrorists in the making.
So I get what you're saying and I actually really like your points that highlight the negative experiences one can have if they are sexually active. Moreover, he is romanticizing relationships. However, I don't think he necessarily is trying to illicit pity, he might be plainly explaining his feelings at the time. It's similar to how people talk about their alcoholism or depression, they might not be explaining their vice/issues in order to make people feel sorry for them or to wade in self-pity, they are just being frank. I tried to read it charitably, perhaps to a fault, I don't know.
Doing the hard work of personal development, including getting dating coaching, is where it’s at, for people whom are serious to make necessary changes to be their best self.
I have:
- the world’s worst anxiety (constant hyper vigilance, tension, shakes and near panic attack 24/7) rn induced by antidep medication and I can’t drink
- pseudoParkinsonian essential tremor so my hands are shaking like an 80yo... I can’t write and can barely type
- myoclonus - random, brief, involuntary movements of major muscle groups
- mild Asperger’s so I’m the life of the party (lol)
- ADD-I so everyone thinks I’m weird but roll with it bc there’s no other choice
- stutter in the most awkward way possible (silent block - gasping for air instead of starting to speak)
- broke af
Even with all that and more BS, I still number close, full close and get pulled by females. If I can hookup same night with hot girl(s), anyone can. No excuses allowed. It’s a matter of commitment to seek feedback and invest the effort to improve one’s outlook and habits... lack the knowledge or the practice, and someone won’t know what types of red flags to look for or how to keep someone else interested.
Did you use dating coaching? Any particular program or coach that led to a breakthrough? What venues are you finding these successes and at what age did you make the transition?
The author hated himself, and that stumped him when searching for a partner.
Learn to love yourself, and the women (or men) will come. People are attracted to confident people. No one wants to date someone with so much self-loathing in their life.
That crosses into personal attack and is not ok here, even if in this case the person isn't present. That's because it does something nasty to the community when people post like this, and we owe ourselves a higher standard. So could you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not do this again?
The novelty wears off for sure, but having a medium-term lover is fun and different than the BS of a relationship. Fun is fun, especially for people whom have massive confidence, social intelligence and game.
[+] [-] lonelyengineer|7 years ago|reply
I'm a 30 year old virgin, graduated with tech-related masters degree, and still a virgin.
I don't resent women, I love women and some of my best friends are women, but I can't see myself ever having a physical experience due to my physical shortcomings.
I'm well under-averagely endowed, a member of an undesirable race, and quite frankly think the age for acting as a goof for me has passed. I don't know how/when to ask women out, and I'm afraid if it'll be interpreted as sexual harassment. I'm no good looking chap for it to be considered flirting, might as well endure loneliness than social suicide.
I cry myself to sleep some nights, but at least I get to live a life where I can feed myself and distract myself by helping others through work/volunteering.
Cherish your loved ones, and don't take them for granted. The pain of never having those experiences is something I'll never wish for others.
[+] [-] berberous|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] koonsolo|7 years ago|reply
You are sabotaging yourself here.
You won't find a girlfriend as long as you believe this story to be true. Girls don't care that much about the looks of guys, but they do care that they are clean, well dressed, etc. They also care about confidence and successful men. But even then it doesn't matter that much.
We have an expression "On every pot there is a lid that fits". I've met girls that were attracted to older men, to asian guys, etc. You don't have to be attractive to the average girl, you just have to find that one person that fits with you.
[+] [-] noobermin|7 years ago|reply
I'll also say try not to listen to closely to the stereotypes. I see two in there, one that flirting will be considered harassment if you aren't good looking and the second is that women (or people in general) can't be sexually attracted to someone who isn't "good looking." The reality is many people are a lot more open minded than that. Tinder helps, and if you're more open minded as well about whom you're willing to be with, you might find someone fun and be surprised that you were never as unlovable as you thought you were.
[+] [-] abandonliberty|7 years ago|reply
You will probably fail a lot because it's difficult, compatibility is rare, and we do a terrible job preparing men with appropriate dating behaviors. It can be very difficult but also rewarding.
Most people seek mates of higher value+loyalty to ensure their survival. The prevalence of this behavior is a testament to its evolutionary success.
Do you sincerely believe that you're a low value mate, or are you seeking to avoid discomfort?
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] throwaway1702|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xiphias|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] malmsteen|7 years ago|reply
Also just go see a hooker already
Edit : and read himom comments down there
[+] [-] gregw2|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trav4225|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Bucephalus355|7 years ago|reply
- the world is dividing into “social haves” and “social have-nots”. It’s not a surprise that as wealth and inequality have taken off dramatically, we’d see social and sexual repercussions.
- ppl really underestimate the role community has played in American history in “hooking up” people and playing matchmaking. I know going to bars looks awesome in the movies and is indeed a cool thing for meeting men/women, but it’s inherently not scalable for a society and really only possible for the subset who can conquer social anxiety
- due to financial constraints, people are living in “extended adolescence” longer and longer. Also is a consequence of ppl getting more and more education. Hard to date as actively when you live with your parents
[+] [-] avemg|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Bucephalus355|7 years ago|reply
Timothy McVeigh, of the Oklahoma City bombing, the Columbine killers, as well as many of the September 11th hijackers, were all virgins. Many authors and postmodern theorists have made this connection.
This is not an isolated issue. It links together with the lack of economic growth of the last 40 years, the rise of autocracy throughout the world, and the failure of capitalism and secularism to dictate any kind of end goal, purpose, or mission statement other than a kind of bland “do what you want, be you”.
Angela Nagle very effectively even links this to the growth of populism and even the alt-right in her book, Kill All Normies.
https://www.amazon.com/Kill-All-Normies-Culture-Alt-Right/dp...
[+] [-] quantumofmalice|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] noobermin|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] megaman22|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DoreenMichele|7 years ago|reply
You hear those cliches of teenage fumbling - well, I wasn't a teenager, so I found I knew what to do. I also found it was exciting and pleasurable. Some people say the first time isn't good, but it was good.
I was lucky when she fell for me, she gave me complete and unconditional love and that's rare. And I'm lucky to have had it.
Based on the ending remarks, I am inferring this is intended as sympathetic and supportive for people who self identify as incels. But I will point out that there is very, very likely a cause and effect relationship between some very positive outcomes he describes and his description of fundamental respect for women driving his reluctance to try to pick anyone up, at least in part.
I think he is romanticizing the things he did not have that he imagines others do have. The reality is that most people don't feel like every relationship they had was a positive and life enhancing experience.
Some things he avoided:
Fathering a child in his teens and becoming permanently trapped in poverty because of it.
Acquiring an STD, which can include AIDS.
Having a violent encounter with another man over female infidelity or other traumatizing relationship drama.
During my divorce, my perspective on experience changed. One man I knew during that time was kind of a pick up artist. He had a lot of sexual experience, but he told me he had never been in love before.
I had gotten married at age 19 to another 19 year old. I had no previous experience with younger men. It was very hard for me to accept that anyone younger would be interested. The concept seemed incredibly alien.
I had experience, but this was completely new territory for me. The pick up artist I knew also had experience, but being in love was completely new territory for him.
I talked with men who were older than me. They, too, were still having new experiences. The fact that they were experienced did not mean they weren't also stumbling their way forward with new experiences.
I am sorry this man has these negative feelings, but I cannot simply accept his very negative framing and conclusions unquestioningly. I don't think he has ever really tried to find what was positive about the path he took. The negativity is simply a foregone conclusion in his mind.
I'm not convinced this is really the best message for trying to somehow reach out to people who identify as incels and somehow be encouraging, especially given the subtext here that the assumption is that if you don't resolve this or get help with it or something, you, too, might do something terrible like what happened in Toronto. The author does not indicate he did anything terrible like that due to his own lack of experience and negative feelings about it. Whether he did or not, obviously, it isn't true that simply being celibate and unhappy about it will turn you into a terrorist.
Perhaps we could come up with something to say about this that is more constructive than unquestioningly accepting that unwanted celibacy is the real and true cause of a terrorist act and, thus, others who are similarly celibate are similarly terrorists in the making.
[+] [-] noobermin|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] himom|7 years ago|reply
I have:
- the world’s worst anxiety (constant hyper vigilance, tension, shakes and near panic attack 24/7) rn induced by antidep medication and I can’t drink
- pseudoParkinsonian essential tremor so my hands are shaking like an 80yo... I can’t write and can barely type
- myoclonus - random, brief, involuntary movements of major muscle groups
- mild Asperger’s so I’m the life of the party (lol)
- ADD-I so everyone thinks I’m weird but roll with it bc there’s no other choice
- stutter in the most awkward way possible (silent block - gasping for air instead of starting to speak)
- broke af
Even with all that and more BS, I still number close, full close and get pulled by females. If I can hookup same night with hot girl(s), anyone can. No excuses allowed. It’s a matter of commitment to seek feedback and invest the effort to improve one’s outlook and habits... lack the knowledge or the practice, and someone won’t know what types of red flags to look for or how to keep someone else interested.
[+] [-] guskel|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abecedarius|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Madmallard|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] catacombs|7 years ago|reply
The author hated himself, and that stumped him when searching for a partner.
Learn to love yourself, and the women (or men) will come. People are attracted to confident people. No one wants to date someone with so much self-loathing in their life.
Life is more than just sex.
[+] [-] JKCalhoun|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dang|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j7ake|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] himom|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] csomar|7 years ago|reply
The dating market is easier there. You'll get a boost in confidence, as well as experience in handling the other gender.
[+] [-] empath75|7 years ago|reply