I had a huge argument with my philosophy professor about this. Our class was discussing the distinguishing characteristics between humans and animals. Someone brought up humans commit suicide while animals don't. The professor claimed that was false and brought up lemmings as evidence. I chimed in that lemming suicides were most likely myth and even if it was real, we shouldn't accept the idea of lemming suicides until we have definitive proof. He claimed lemming suicides were established fact and that if I or anyone rejected the idea in our papers on the topic, we'd be penalized for positing a factually incorrect statement. A bit of back and forth later, he said he was the ultimate authority on the topic and ended the discussion.
Naturally, in my paper, I wrote that lemming suicides were likely myth ( with sources ) and naturally I got penalized.
I still remember it years later and whenever the topic of lemming suicides come up, I make it my business to correct people. Years from now, on my death bed, my last words will be "lemming suicide is a myth".
And your discussion sounds with your professor sounds really stupid - he literally claimed to be the ultimate authority on lemmings? An academic with a chair said that? Sounds so unlikely I'm not sure I believe you.
As someone who briefly concentrated in Philosophy, your professor sounds awfully idiotic. Not even for having a wrong perspective whatsoever, but to be teaching a class about reasoning and simultaneously claim the role of god, where all reasoning must lead back to his conclusions.
The fact that a philosopher claims to be an academic reference regarding hard science is sad.
It is already difficult for philosophy to avoid being grouped with dance, music and volleyball - academically speaking, and then someone makes it even more difficult by being silly.
Disclamer: as a physicist I classify philosophy together with the subjects mentioned earlier and I play volleyball a lot.
My takeaway from oppressive teachers is different. I learned that if you cannot win the fight or war against them, then don't start a fight or war. Oppressive teachers remind me that there is a survival element, for students, to the academic life and that the grading scheme is most likely biased with at least some subjectivity.
Oppressive teachers show me a wonderful thing: how complex the real world is as opposed to ideals. I also dislike them with a passion.
Somewhere out there, that professor finally read evidence that there is no lemming suicides and now regrets everyday for penalizing you. At least that is how it is playing out in my head.
I was lucky enough to have an elephant ride through the jungle in Thailand, can confirm that they are almost silent, only noise is the brush being pushed to one side on a path just wide enough for a person to walk. Amazing animals.
Disney popularized the myth, but I think it was around before them. I think they wanted to get video of those famous/interesting lemming suicides but the lemmings wouldn't do it, so they coerced them into it.
Talk about unnecessary cruelty, lemmings are quite cute creatures, can't imagine what was going thru their heads ("the Disney filmmakers") when they threw all those lemmings off a cliff to their deaths for a film.
Cruelty was par for the course when it came to nature documentaries unfortunately. Most nature documentaries of the past were staged. One of the most infamous one was where they would trap and drug jaguars and them dump them on the riverbank and wait for caimans to kill it.
Notice how the jaguar can't move from that spot even with a bunch of large caiman right in front of it? It's almost like one of the jaguar's paws were pinned down to keep it in one spot. Wonder why? Could it be cameras were heavy and clunky contraptions back then that you could realistically focus on one area at a time? Can't capture jaguar footage if the jaguar is allowed to move out of frame. Or it was drugged so much that it had no idea what was going on.
Disney is a money-many endeavor that sometimes cuts corners and spreads untruths. I'm not against making money, just against those who would lie and defraud others to make more of it.
Businessinsider.com has a page that shows four that Disney apologized about or said were untrue. [1]
In the same way, Dan Rather, Brian Williams, and others were believed to be great reporters, even though they created their own sensationalized fake news to get ratings.
One of the items from Rather was called "Fake but Accurate" by Rather. "The New York Times' headline report on this interview, including the phrase "Fake but Accurate," created an immediate backlash from critics of CBS's broadcast. The conservative-leaning Weekly Standard proceeded to predict the end of CBS's news division." [2]
One of Williams stories about being in a flaming plane that was shot down was debunked by the soldiers who were in the plane with him, the plane that was unhit and unlit. Williams later apologized, saying he didn't "know what screwed up in my mind that caused me to conflate one aircraft with another." [3]
Re: Brian Williams - many leading memory scientists say that Brain Williams didn't sensationalize his story, but rather created a false memory over time. There's a lot of evidence of this, and 10+ years is a long time in terms of memory and you will start combining multiple people's stories in your own recollection.
Terriers stay small because they're given whiskey as pups and the way to catch a bird is to throw salt on its tail are two other childhood facts that I find hard to completely give up.
upon reading the whole article, it is mostly true.
"mass dispersal" occurs when the population grows too much and the food runs out, sometimes it can be very directional, and sometimes they will pile up on the shore until they gets too packed and they try to swim across frigid waters.
the Disney mass suicide documentary says this can be observed every 7 - 10 years, and then they over dramatized how it looks
edit: removed blue planet reference, peace!
edit2: alright folks, what is inaccurate or disagreeable about what I wrote? I'm downvoted so far that I can't even post a rebuttal anymore and have zero feedback about how I read the Alaska Government's article incorrectly
Suicide is deliberate. Any unfortunate death due to overcrowding attributed to suicide is simply false. There is no evidence of intentional death or racing towards a cliff, merely that when faced with no other apparent route of escape, they have a great chance of dying when trying to cross a body of frigid water. That's entirely different from the portrayal by Disney and the associated myth.
Just a few days ago on hn I discovered the stanford prison expweiment was largely faked, and now this. I guess this is good reason to be suspicious of pop science factoids that often get thrown around in discussions.
Oh wow, this brings me back. I did a report in 6th grade about this, and had to try really hard to convince all my friend the lemmings game lied to them. I remember typing it on an electric typewriter.
So do we know whether Disney actually killed lemmings for a film?
There's some people claiming that 'most survived' and others accepting that they were killed.
While I'm not much of an animal rights activist, killing animals relatively ethically in medical research seems like a far cry from tossing lemmings off of cliffs.
And myth explanations spawn more myths. I had read (forgot the source) that it was a myth and that the lemmings were really jumping off cliffs to swim to an island people weren't generally aware of.
Although swimming to an island is closer to the truth of swimming across a river than suicide is.
This is triply interesting for me because I had never heard of this myth and, reading the comments, I appear the be the only one out of the loop on the myth itself or the game. I wonder how many other pop-sci myths I'm unaware of.
Congratulations on being one of today’s lucky ten thousand then!
I found this podcast here in the comments for more such things, called “99% Invisible” apparently elephants walk surprisingly silently instead of the thunderous stomping in the cinema.
I am a Disney fan but never knew about this. Disappointed. I would think modern Disney probably is much better than that nowadays. I think nothing like this would happen today thanks to CGI.
If you are OK with eating meat, you should be OK with killing animals for a movie, in my opinion. When you eat a steak, you could eat potatoes or something instead, but you choose to eat an animal because you like how it tastes. I don't see that as any different from killing animals for a movie, in both cases you are unnecessarily killing an animal for your enjoyment.
Which among many other things, mentions the Lemming Suicide myth:
> Lemmings do not engage in mass suicidal dives off cliffs when migrating. This misconception was popularized by the Disney film White Wilderness, which shot many of the migration scenes (also staged by using multiple shots of different groups of lemmings) on a large, snow-covered turntable in a studio. Photographers later pushed the lemmings off a cliff.[234] The misconception itself is much older, dating back to at least the late 19th century.
Lemmings are fearless creatures that will scream to any animal, including humans, that cross their path.
I have seen a Lemmings confronting a crow. The crow sends the lemmings flying on three different occasions until it took the lemming dead body and left flying. The lemmings never tried to run or hide, it just was screaming at the crow until its very last moments.
So I can see that "mass suicide" is a myth. But it has some true on it looking at the lemmings' behaviour.
paidleaf|7 years ago
Naturally, in my paper, I wrote that lemming suicides were likely myth ( with sources ) and naturally I got penalized.
I still remember it years later and whenever the topic of lemming suicides come up, I make it my business to correct people. Years from now, on my death bed, my last words will be "lemming suicide is a myth".
chrisseaton|7 years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autothysis
And your discussion sounds with your professor sounds really stupid - he literally claimed to be the ultimate authority on lemmings? An academic with a chair said that? Sounds so unlikely I'm not sure I believe you.
jordigh|7 years ago
https://jordi.platinum.edu.pl/piccies/enlighten-them.jpg
alehul|7 years ago
BrandoElFollito|7 years ago
It is already difficult for philosophy to avoid being grouped with dance, music and volleyball - academically speaking, and then someone makes it even more difficult by being silly.
Disclamer: as a physicist I classify philosophy together with the subjects mentioned earlier and I play volleyball a lot.
mettamage|7 years ago
Oppressive teachers show me a wonderful thing: how complex the real world is as opposed to ideals. I also dislike them with a passion.
mlrtime|7 years ago
unknown|7 years ago
[deleted]
dekhn|7 years ago
plink|7 years ago
darepublic|7 years ago
lintroller|7 years ago
I found this entire episode fascinating, especially the part about Elephant footsteps being nearly silent in the real world.
mywacaday|7 years ago
sgillen|7 years ago
DonaldFisk|7 years ago
Lemming suicide is also mentioned on page 66 of the first edition of Confessions of an English Opium Eater by Thomas de Quincey: https://archive.org/stream/confessionsofeng00dequ_1#page/66/...
This was published in 1832 and revised in 1856.
paulie_a|7 years ago
forkLding|7 years ago
dmix|7 years ago
The most important attribute for animal rights causes it seems. If Facebook campaigns are any measure...
rusk|7 years ago
"Imma make lots of money from this"
paidleaf|7 years ago
https://youtu.be/huGJmQU4Piw?t=159
Notice how the jaguar can't move from that spot even with a bunch of large caiman right in front of it? It's almost like one of the jaguar's paws were pinned down to keep it in one spot. Wonder why? Could it be cameras were heavy and clunky contraptions back then that you could realistically focus on one area at a time? Can't capture jaguar footage if the jaguar is allowed to move out of frame. Or it was drugged so much that it had no idea what was going on.
afterburner|7 years ago
Aunche|7 years ago
IncRnd|7 years ago
Businessinsider.com has a page that shows four that Disney apologized about or said were untrue. [1]
In the same way, Dan Rather, Brian Williams, and others were believed to be great reporters, even though they created their own sensationalized fake news to get ratings.
One of the items from Rather was called "Fake but Accurate" by Rather. "The New York Times' headline report on this interview, including the phrase "Fake but Accurate," created an immediate backlash from critics of CBS's broadcast. The conservative-leaning Weekly Standard proceeded to predict the end of CBS's news division." [2]
One of Williams stories about being in a flaming plane that was shot down was debunked by the soldiers who were in the plane with him, the plane that was unhit and unlit. Williams later apologized, saying he didn't "know what screwed up in my mind that caused me to conflate one aircraft with another." [3]
[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/discovery-channels-fake-docum...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy
[3] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/nbcs-brian-williams-apol...
laken|7 years ago
https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/09/was-brian-williams...
weeksie|7 years ago
rmetzler|7 years ago
dmix|7 years ago
barking|7 years ago
jacquesm|7 years ago
deltateam|7 years ago
"mass dispersal" occurs when the population grows too much and the food runs out, sometimes it can be very directional, and sometimes they will pile up on the shore until they gets too packed and they try to swim across frigid waters.
the Disney mass suicide documentary says this can be observed every 7 - 10 years, and then they over dramatized how it looks
edit: removed blue planet reference, peace!
edit2: alright folks, what is inaccurate or disagreeable about what I wrote? I'm downvoted so far that I can't even post a rebuttal anymore and have zero feedback about how I read the Alaska Government's article incorrectly
jakevn|7 years ago
gowld|7 years ago
soperj|7 years ago
camelCaseOfBeer|7 years ago
[deleted]
AnIdiotOnTheNet|7 years ago
vivekd|7 years ago
ModernMech|7 years ago
ChuckMcM|7 years ago
Yet another black mark against Disney's attempts to make "nature more interesting" only to be just making up just so stories.
ebbv|7 years ago
ibdf|7 years ago
mlindner|7 years ago
danschumann|7 years ago
cup-of-tea|7 years ago
alehul|7 years ago
There's some people claiming that 'most survived' and others accepting that they were killed.
While I'm not much of an animal rights activist, killing animals relatively ethically in medical research seems like a far cry from tossing lemmings off of cliffs.
antientropic|7 years ago
mchahn|7 years ago
Although swimming to an island is closer to the truth of swimming across a river than suicide is.
Nadya|7 years ago
Klover|7 years ago
I found this podcast here in the comments for more such things, called “99% Invisible” apparently elephants walk surprisingly silently instead of the thunderous stomping in the cinema.
matt-attack|7 years ago
jcelerier|7 years ago
so... never played the Lemmings video game ?
Keverw|7 years ago
I am a Disney fan but never knew about this. Disappointed. I would think modern Disney probably is much better than that nowadays. I think nothing like this would happen today thanks to CGI.
GhostVII|7 years ago
sopooneo|7 years ago
unknown|7 years ago
[deleted]
TulliusCicero|7 years ago
IshKebab|7 years ago
CodesInChaos|7 years ago
Which among many other things, mentions the Lemming Suicide myth:
> Lemmings do not engage in mass suicidal dives off cliffs when migrating. This misconception was popularized by the Disney film White Wilderness, which shot many of the migration scenes (also staged by using multiple shots of different groups of lemmings) on a large, snow-covered turntable in a studio. Photographers later pushed the lemmings off a cliff.[234] The misconception itself is much older, dating back to at least the late 19th century.
ljf|7 years ago
_pmf_|7 years ago
ainiriand|7 years ago
aaron695|7 years ago
[deleted]
zmix|7 years ago
kartan|7 years ago
Lemmings are fearless creatures that will scream to any animal, including humans, that cross their path.
I have seen a Lemmings confronting a crow. The crow sends the lemmings flying on three different occasions until it took the lemming dead body and left flying. The lemmings never tried to run or hide, it just was screaming at the crow until its very last moments.
So I can see that "mass suicide" is a myth. But it has some true on it looking at the lemmings' behaviour.