> While some consumers may appreciate the novelty or added convenience, the conveniences come at the cost of entry-level jobs.
Added convenience? In the past, someone else would translate my spoken word into the inputs that the computer screen required. Now, I don't have to speak, but I do have to figure out how to use this interface. Any bets how long it takes me order my food? If Wawa is any indicator, at least 3 times as long.
(Insert secondary rant about the "convenience" of DIY grocery checkout. I cannot stand those things!)
> (Insert secondary rant about the "convenience" of DIY grocery checkout. I cannot stand those things!)
I LOVE those things. Yes, lots of people have problems with them, but at the store I frequent (WinCo), most people have an entire cartful (filled to the brim) of stuff. I live nearby and go multiple times a week. Usually I have less than a basket of stuff. It almost always gets me out 3-5 minutes faster than a line.
One of my local grocery stores just got rid of a bunch of their checkouts in favor of self-service. It's OK if I'm just picking up a couple of barcoded items. But it's a huge PITA for things like produce to the point where I've largely switched to another chain.
most of the time the (mininum wage) employees are not very good at it either. you end up repeating yourself, confirming everything, and still wait on them to push the buttons..
I have way fewer issues with self-serve checkout that require me to line up at the customer service desk.
My main gripe is that efficient pipelining is prevented by machines that weigh every individual item that is scanned before admitting the next one. This is insane; weighing the previous item can easily overlap with scanning the next one; as long as they are put down in the order they were scanned.
At least here in Israel, the added conveneince for me comes in the form of the McDonalds app.
It has my favorites on it, and I can order them with only a few clicks, customized to what I like, and do it all before I even arrive at the restaurant. I can literally spend 1 minute on my iPhone without even having to get near the restaurant, and arrive there to have my food ready.
It’s sold as a convenience, but the reality is they’re having the customer do the job, but without pay. If I wanted to be a cashier I wouldn’t have gone to school. Of course this gets some traction with people who’s major goal in life is to minimize human-human contact, but for the rest of us this is a pain in the ass. On the other hand, this will still be the least objectionable part of the McDonald’s experience, with the food being second worst, and the supersonic diarrhea being worst.
This discussion has already devolved into a war of slogans and soapboxing. It's barely been an hour.
I can't really blame HN. The article focuses on minimum wage and largely blames it for automation, and the author is under the impression that it's still possible to go from working the register to CEO.
This is not a good article. It lacks any insight or perspective.
Even his attempt to relate his own experiences was pretty poor. He was a grill man, which had some modicum of skill that a fast food patron would pay for.
Unlike a decade ago, most people have grown accustomed to data entry on a machine. Progressing to a self-serve order kiosk, or even order on a phone and send it to the restaurant before you step in is inevitable.
Some of the McDonalds do offer table service. If this CEO is bleeding-heart about young labourers that he employs could simply retrain them for that task and/or convert them to kitchen staff to better handle the foot + drive through traffic.
But at the end, this is merely a fluff piece about how minimum wages are bad.
That looks like it's more about serving the food automatically rather than ordering it. With the kiosk, the food is still served the same way, but the ordering involves less people.
I can see the automat process being less desirable because there's an unknown, and obviously longer time between when the food is prepared vs when it is served. With the kiosks the food is still served pretty much immediately after it's prepared.
> A study by University of Virginia and Middle Tennessee State University economists found that teenagers who held part-time jobs in school had annual earnings that were 20 percent higher than their counterparts without experience six to nine years after graduation.
> These entry level jobs such as flipping burgers or taking customers orders teach teens valuable jobs skills such as customer service and applying basic math skills. Skills that could ultimately lead to the career stepping stones for a working teenager to become an engineer or accountant.
I think these are good points, but I think that we should be careful that we're not giving young people advice that's obsolete. Times change!
Here's a thought exercise: Imagine the time when the first jobs for hourly pay came into existence. What advice was the older generation giving to the youth of that time? (I can imagine my elders telling me that it'd be important to learn to take care of animials, or harvest wheat, etc.)
>Here's a thought exercise: Imagine the time when the first jobs for hourly pay came into existence. What advice was the older generation giving to the youth of that time? (I can imagine my elders telling me that it'd be important to learn to take care of animials, or harvest wheat, etc.)
Wages were known to be paid in ancient Egypt, so that advice would have been useful for the next few millennia.
My first job (in high-school) was doing QA and eventually coding for a 4 person software first. I don't know how common this actually is, but I don't see why internships/apprenticeships can't be a more common thing for even teenagers (instead of just those in university).
I suspect that it's a lot less about any specific skills and more about earning money, showing up for work even when you don't want to, etc. I suspect that if those same teenagers worked on a farm part-time (or perhaps even played organized sports) instead, they'd also do better than their counterparts who didn't.
I like the kiosks at least in Manhattan. No line, I don't have to deal with a moody cashier, and the menu is more complete. It's like using the Starbucks App.
The only item I semi-regularly enjoy from McD's is a McDouble Like a 'Mac. Unfortunately when I tried a kiosk, I couldn't order it. If they go 100% kiosks and not offer this delicious mod, I will no longer be their customer.
In Germany we already have many such Kiosks, but you can still go to a regular person and buy your stuff, without using this computer.
I had the impression many people don't use the Kiosk, don't know why.
My take is, you're standing right before a big screen and everyone behind you can see what you're doing, which feels kinda awkward.
Maybe they should have used an app for this.
Only you can see what you buy, you can take as long as you like, pay online, get your number and with it your food without the need to stand in line or something.
FYI this is an opinion piece written by a former McDonalds CEO. As for my opinion, I welcome the kiosks as there will be less communication barriers and greater order accuracy. Innovation will always lead to a reduction in human labor costs, but we should not artificially keep human labor where it's not needed.
I can't read forbes anymore since it only displays a blank page to me. Personally I have been using kiosks at Mc Donald's for years. Compared to self checkout at grocery stores, they are usually a good experience. My only problem is that some of the promotions don't work with them.
I used to work right near a McDonalds in Los Angeles that has had two of these in addition to cashiers for a few years.
Here is what I've noticed:
- All other things being equal and given the option, it seems that most people went to the human cashier. I can't ever remember seeing a person using one of these if there was no line at a person.
- During peak traffic times (lunch hour, as this McDonalds was near a bunch of business parks) they often needed an employee manning the kiosks to answer questions and help customers who got stuck. In this case, it was one employee for two terminals, but it could probably have been a 1:4 or 1:6 ratio no problem.
- Kind of unsurprisingly, people you would assume were not good with technology (older patrons) seemed to struggle more and take longer to order and get stuck more.
- There was a little bit of a learning curve to be able to confidently use on quickly, but even once I had gotten the hang of it, going to a cashier was always faster. Having a friendly, categorized, nested UI is just slower than what the cashiers have. Also, the terminal touch screen wasn't super responsive.
This all leads me to believe that this really isn't that big of an issue at this point. I expect to see a hybrid style approach like we do we self-checkout at grocery stores, where you have the option to do it yourself, but it's not the only option.
No matter how simple they make these to use, it's still a new "thing" to learn. Frequent McDonalds customers may opt for the terminal, but infrequent customers aren't going to want to take the time to learn how to use these, especially when they are in a rush or have other pressing issues (imagine a one parent 3 screaming children type scenario).
The nested UI kills it for me. It's so goddamn slow and irritating, especially if the submenu doesn't have what you're looking for. The pictures of everything are huge. It's not a menu, it's a web site.
I literally have an easier and faster time ordering food from Japanese fast-food places, with the entire menu being listed in Japanese and me knowing only enough kanji to distinguish pork from fish.
In Europe it's totally the opposite. Especially around Holland, I never see people standing in line at McDonald's. Everyone goes straight to the kiosk.
I rarely, if ever, go to McDonald's at home. However, I realized that the kiosks in foreign countries allow you to order in english. They are quite convenient if you want food quickly but don't want to deal with a language barrier. I am looking forward to seeing more kiosks at fast food places in the future.
I have two problems with this approach to cost control. Neither is concerning the potential loss of jobs (or at least the lack of need for additional hires).
First, I don't think it will be more convenient. Sure, it is much more convenient for McDonald's to do this. But probably not for the user. Is it really easier to press a bunch of buttons on a system you don't use that often? Or is it easier to just verbalize what you want to a human being and have them enter it appropriately because they are more familiar with the system and can do it faster? I think it's a no-brainer that just saying what you want is far better for most consumers. If you order the same thing whenever you go and memorize how to quickly enter it, then it could be simpler. But that's probably the only case. That's what I do at Wawa - I always get the same sub so it's not time consuming for me to order. If I got different stuff, it would take me longer to order than just telling someone.
The other issue I have is that this whole concept of adding devices supposedly improves the bottom line of the company but they will surely charge customers the same prices. It also provides the customers with less service, not more. I remember when Applebees was testing out the same thing - trying to push everyone to order on those table devices that they have which have the games for kids on them. I outright (but politely) refused and requested a normal server/service. They happily obliged. But the reason is because it's more of a pain for me to put in the order and then it's an annoyance to call someone by pressing the button to notify them like they are flight crew on a plane.
Things get more complicated if you have coupons, or special requests. My wife is currently pregnant and these kiosks were at the McD I went to recently. She had asked for the McD big breakfast but since she can't have the sausage due to her pregnancy she wanted it totally separated so I could have it. Now I have to, presumably, type in notes for my special request?
Another thing I just thought of is the issue with errors in ordering. When McD (or anyone else) currently makes a mistake, it's on them. But now there's a chance that I will enter it wrong by incorrectly using their system. I'll never make a mistake ordering verbally. There's a decent chance I mess up when doing it via kiosk.
"I started working at McDonald’s making the minimum wage of 85 cents an hour. I worked hard and earned a promotion to restaurant manager within just one year, then went on to hold almost every position available throughout the company, eventually rising to CEO of McDonalds USA."
I've been using the McDonald's iPhone app, which shares the same objective as the new kiosks. Besides several glitches here and there, I definitely think that's the future. However, I wonder if it is a humanity milestone to liberate us from cashier jobs.
Tried this a few years ago, it was interesting. Foreign country, not very good at the language. Sure, let's try the kiosk. What I didn't think of that they would mumble the number of my order when I was supposed to pick it up.
Tried this recently again, it failed horribly.
Enter local McDonalds, see huge queue at normal counter and short queue where you grad your stuff.
Notice new kiosk, choose stuff, it works flawlessly and quick.
Try to pay with card, machine doesn't accept my card. Now I have to use the long queue to pay. Awesome. Of course the card worked there.
That's my main problem with these "automated" things - it's fine for the regular use case, but you better not run into any trouble (which is not your own fault).
This move is extremely bad in terms of execution. At least the one I see in France.. gosh, I don't even want to go to McDonalds. It's ridiculous both in technical and cultural terms.
The old cashier / queue was part of the spirit. Rush hour sucked but after seeing the new 'decoupled' scheme, I regret waiting 10minutes for my hamburger.
The kiosks are damning, huge and not very efficient, often breaking the space in the worst possible way.
The kitchen which was a tense flow of cooking is now a boring sight of randomness. The other employees are looking at each others waiting for someone to answer their ticket number.
Almost comical. Bonus point, there's opportunity to snatch some receipts and get free lunch from time to time.
I agree. The kitchen seems far more chaotic now that the employees are all answering to a computer. And when something goes wrong, there's nobody with the training or authority to fix it.
And because the customer has to stand around for ten minutes waiting for the food, you have nothing better to do than watch the kitchen mayhem. Half the staff running around. The other half waiting for something to happen so they can start running.
At least, that's how it looks in America. In Germany, it seemed to achieve the goal of a well-ordered, speedy kitchen.
There were several generations, and it seems like each country has a different version. I have seen at least three (US, NL and DE).
I think the latest generation in US and DE are quite nice. But only at places with a lot of tourism people actually seem to use them. Most people just go to the cashier.
The McD's up the street has a couple of these but they don't accept cash which makes it necessary to for me to use the cashier since I'm a 99.99% cash-only person.
The main benefit AFAICT is they only use the fancy table tents so they bring your order out to you, using the cashier is hit-n-miss on those things and seems to totally depend on how the cashier's day is going.
One thing I have noticed lately is there's a whole lot more kids doing the entry-level jobs at McDonalds these days, for a while it was almost exclusively older folks and the youngins were just out of luck trying to get a foothold in the job market.
I have a friend who works for a McDonalds competitor (a Little Caesar's) in a small town in North Dakota, where McDonalds is already the big spender at 15 bucks an hour, not because they desire to replace entry level jobs, but because hiring people who are competent and reliable is a literal day to day struggle.
This seems like the inevitable result of both the pressure to hire decent workers and a desire to keep costs down.
Once customers become fluent in the interface, I can't imagine businesses not adopting it en masse.
What's to lose, if you're struggling to keep meatspace workers?
[+] [-] neogodless|7 years ago|reply
Added convenience? In the past, someone else would translate my spoken word into the inputs that the computer screen required. Now, I don't have to speak, but I do have to figure out how to use this interface. Any bets how long it takes me order my food? If Wawa is any indicator, at least 3 times as long.
(Insert secondary rant about the "convenience" of DIY grocery checkout. I cannot stand those things!)
[+] [-] soared|7 years ago|reply
I appreciate the convenience, I’d rather have the freedom to poke around and explore the menu at my own pace. And avoid talking to a person.
[+] [-] loco5niner|7 years ago|reply
I LOVE those things. Yes, lots of people have problems with them, but at the store I frequent (WinCo), most people have an entire cartful (filled to the brim) of stuff. I live nearby and go multiple times a week. Usually I have less than a basket of stuff. It almost always gets me out 3-5 minutes faster than a line.
[+] [-] ghaff|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] modzu|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kazinator|7 years ago|reply
My main gripe is that efficient pipelining is prevented by machines that weigh every individual item that is scanned before admitting the next one. This is insane; weighing the previous item can easily overlap with scanning the next one; as long as they are put down in the order they were scanned.
[+] [-] mrbonner|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pg_bot|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] edanm|7 years ago|reply
It has my favorites on it, and I can order them with only a few clicks, customized to what I like, and do it all before I even arrive at the restaurant. I can literally spend 1 minute on my iPhone without even having to get near the restaurant, and arrive there to have my food ready.
[+] [-] krapp|7 years ago|reply
I prefer them, but I'm well aware that the convenience is more for the store not having to pay someone to do what they've trained me to do for free.
[+] [-] flycaliguy|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Semirhage|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rainbowmverse|7 years ago|reply
I can't really blame HN. The article focuses on minimum wage and largely blames it for automation, and the author is under the impression that it's still possible to go from working the register to CEO.
This is not a good article. It lacks any insight or perspective.
[+] [-] calyth2018|7 years ago|reply
Some of the McDonalds do offer table service. If this CEO is bleeding-heart about young labourers that he employs could simply retrain them for that task and/or convert them to kitchen staff to better handle the foot + drive through traffic.
But at the end, this is merely a fluff piece about how minimum wages are bad.
[+] [-] mattmurdog|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asdsa5325|7 years ago|reply
Unlikely? Of course, but definitely possible.
[+] [-] paulgb|7 years ago|reply
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat
[+] [-] gmiller123456|7 years ago|reply
I can see the automat process being less desirable because there's an unknown, and obviously longer time between when the food is prepared vs when it is served. With the kiosks the food is still served pretty much immediately after it's prepared.
[+] [-] jt2190|7 years ago|reply
> These entry level jobs such as flipping burgers or taking customers orders teach teens valuable jobs skills such as customer service and applying basic math skills. Skills that could ultimately lead to the career stepping stones for a working teenager to become an engineer or accountant.
I think these are good points, but I think that we should be careful that we're not giving young people advice that's obsolete. Times change!
Here's a thought exercise: Imagine the time when the first jobs for hourly pay came into existence. What advice was the older generation giving to the youth of that time? (I can imagine my elders telling me that it'd be important to learn to take care of animials, or harvest wheat, etc.)
[+] [-] qbrass|7 years ago|reply
Wages were known to be paid in ancient Egypt, so that advice would have been useful for the next few millennia.
[+] [-] therealdrag0|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ghaff|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jdlyga|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] n17r4m|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] k__|7 years ago|reply
In Germany we already have many such Kiosks, but you can still go to a regular person and buy your stuff, without using this computer.
I had the impression many people don't use the Kiosk, don't know why.
My take is, you're standing right before a big screen and everyone behind you can see what you're doing, which feels kinda awkward.
Maybe they should have used an app for this.
Only you can see what you buy, you can take as long as you like, pay online, get your number and with it your food without the need to stand in line or something.
[+] [-] Simulacra|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yoz-y|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Yuioup|7 years ago|reply
Edge opens the page just fine. My eyes are bleeding.
[+] [-] superfrank|7 years ago|reply
Here is what I've noticed:
- All other things being equal and given the option, it seems that most people went to the human cashier. I can't ever remember seeing a person using one of these if there was no line at a person.
- During peak traffic times (lunch hour, as this McDonalds was near a bunch of business parks) they often needed an employee manning the kiosks to answer questions and help customers who got stuck. In this case, it was one employee for two terminals, but it could probably have been a 1:4 or 1:6 ratio no problem.
- Kind of unsurprisingly, people you would assume were not good with technology (older patrons) seemed to struggle more and take longer to order and get stuck more.
- There was a little bit of a learning curve to be able to confidently use on quickly, but even once I had gotten the hang of it, going to a cashier was always faster. Having a friendly, categorized, nested UI is just slower than what the cashiers have. Also, the terminal touch screen wasn't super responsive.
This all leads me to believe that this really isn't that big of an issue at this point. I expect to see a hybrid style approach like we do we self-checkout at grocery stores, where you have the option to do it yourself, but it's not the only option.
No matter how simple they make these to use, it's still a new "thing" to learn. Frequent McDonalds customers may opt for the terminal, but infrequent customers aren't going to want to take the time to learn how to use these, especially when they are in a rush or have other pressing issues (imagine a one parent 3 screaming children type scenario).
[+] [-] jstarfish|7 years ago|reply
I literally have an easier and faster time ordering food from Japanese fast-food places, with the entire menu being listed in Japanese and me knowing only enough kanji to distinguish pork from fish.
[+] [-] reustle|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryanmercer|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mattmurdog|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bfuller|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bovermyer|7 years ago|reply
As for automation reducing the amount of available jobs... well, yeah, that's going to happen. Humanity will adapt. It's what our species does best.
[+] [-] wbraun|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] turc1656|7 years ago|reply
First, I don't think it will be more convenient. Sure, it is much more convenient for McDonald's to do this. But probably not for the user. Is it really easier to press a bunch of buttons on a system you don't use that often? Or is it easier to just verbalize what you want to a human being and have them enter it appropriately because they are more familiar with the system and can do it faster? I think it's a no-brainer that just saying what you want is far better for most consumers. If you order the same thing whenever you go and memorize how to quickly enter it, then it could be simpler. But that's probably the only case. That's what I do at Wawa - I always get the same sub so it's not time consuming for me to order. If I got different stuff, it would take me longer to order than just telling someone.
The other issue I have is that this whole concept of adding devices supposedly improves the bottom line of the company but they will surely charge customers the same prices. It also provides the customers with less service, not more. I remember when Applebees was testing out the same thing - trying to push everyone to order on those table devices that they have which have the games for kids on them. I outright (but politely) refused and requested a normal server/service. They happily obliged. But the reason is because it's more of a pain for me to put in the order and then it's an annoyance to call someone by pressing the button to notify them like they are flight crew on a plane.
Things get more complicated if you have coupons, or special requests. My wife is currently pregnant and these kiosks were at the McD I went to recently. She had asked for the McD big breakfast but since she can't have the sausage due to her pregnancy she wanted it totally separated so I could have it. Now I have to, presumably, type in notes for my special request?
Another thing I just thought of is the issue with errors in ordering. When McD (or anyone else) currently makes a mistake, it's on them. But now there's a chance that I will enter it wrong by incorrectly using their system. I'll never make a mistake ordering verbally. There's a decent chance I mess up when doing it via kiosk.
[+] [-] neo4sure|7 years ago|reply
Howmany people didnt make it up that far?
[+] [-] mikehines|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wink|7 years ago|reply
Tried this recently again, it failed horribly.
Enter local McDonalds, see huge queue at normal counter and short queue where you grad your stuff.
Notice new kiosk, choose stuff, it works flawlessly and quick.
Try to pay with card, machine doesn't accept my card. Now I have to use the long queue to pay. Awesome. Of course the card worked there.
That's my main problem with these "automated" things - it's fine for the regular use case, but you better not run into any trouble (which is not your own fault).
[+] [-] agumonkey|7 years ago|reply
The old cashier / queue was part of the spirit. Rush hour sucked but after seeing the new 'decoupled' scheme, I regret waiting 10minutes for my hamburger.
The kiosks are damning, huge and not very efficient, often breaking the space in the worst possible way.
The kitchen which was a tense flow of cooking is now a boring sight of randomness. The other employees are looking at each others waiting for someone to answer their ticket number.
Almost comical. Bonus point, there's opportunity to snatch some receipts and get free lunch from time to time.
[+] [-] reaperducer|7 years ago|reply
And because the customer has to stand around for ten minutes waiting for the food, you have nothing better to do than watch the kitchen mayhem. Half the staff running around. The other half waiting for something to happen so they can start running.
At least, that's how it looks in America. In Germany, it seemed to achieve the goal of a well-ordered, speedy kitchen.
[+] [-] tjansen|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] UncleEntity|7 years ago|reply
The main benefit AFAICT is they only use the fancy table tents so they bring your order out to you, using the cashier is hit-n-miss on those things and seems to totally depend on how the cashier's day is going.
One thing I have noticed lately is there's a whole lot more kids doing the entry-level jobs at McDonalds these days, for a while it was almost exclusively older folks and the youngins were just out of luck trying to get a foothold in the job market.
[+] [-] natecavanaugh|7 years ago|reply
This seems like the inevitable result of both the pressure to hire decent workers and a desire to keep costs down.
Once customers become fluent in the interface, I can't imagine businesses not adopting it en masse. What's to lose, if you're struggling to keep meatspace workers?