Finally - A positive perspective on small town living.
When I read the stories of big city lifestyles I'm amazed so many people opt-in to it. Traffic, noise, concrete everywhere. Yuck - but to each their own.
I'll take my country life as a remote worker going on 8 years. Trees, forest, wildlife, fresh air, backyards. 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks.
Everyone knows each other. Very tight knit community.
Don't even get me started on cost of living differences. I'll never leave.
Remote work really levels the playing field and unlocks a lot of potential for rural and small towns. All happening at a time when the staple of resource extraction is declining but global connectivity is increasing. There may be a bright future for small towns yet.
Not trying to start a "town vs city" argument - to each their own, as you said - but I think people who don't live in big cities misunderstand what life is like there. In NYC you hear tourists say "I could never live here". The thing is, as someone who lives in New York, I also could never live here, if _here_ is Times Square or some other tourist hotspot. Cities are just collections of neighborhoods. In your neighborhood you recognize your neighbors and feel the same community spirit you would in any town. The difference is that you can get on a subway or bus and see people or have experiences that would require a trip to the airport somewhere else. But the real thing I love about city life are the opportunities you have every day to come into contact with people who are different than you. Going for a jog in the winter through a Hasidic neighborhood, an elderly man in a wheelchair is stuck in the snow, so I help him get to temple. A woman with a cane who has clearly had a very different life than me needs a seat on the subway, we make eye contact and I get up for her, she says thank you and I say no trouble. These small unavoidable collisions every day really do have an impact on how you see the world.
> 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks.
Almost every small town in Ontario is car-centric. The big ugly parking lots push the shops further from the street. There is no bike lanes to speak of. The coffee shops don't feel lively, they feel depressed, and the coffee is usually Tim Hortons or worse.
What I want is a hipster small town, built around bikes and walkability. Close enough to a lake to be fun, but not so close to make it all about "water life". I want a city where artists and computer scientists can both afford to be there. High property taxes, but with a per-person dividend / basic income so the effective property taxes are progressive.
There are ups and downs to any of these, and various people like them (or hate them) for very diverse reasons.
My mother is from one of these small towns and she hates almost every single thing you enumerated:
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- "Everyone knows each other" is a nightmare when you're a teenager. News that you did something stupid or peculiar can sometimes get home before you do, sometimes amplified. And if you don't want to be that close to everyone, you can end up being treated as a freak.
- Trees, forest, wildlife, backyards -- also the occasional possibly rabid fox, bugs everywhere, sweeping the leaves...
- Five minutes walk or one minute drive to shop for groceries. If they're out of ketchup, tough luck 'cause the nearest one is thirty minutes away and you have to cross the railroad tracks, too.
To those of us who live in the city, these things don't look bad at all. I'd certainly endure my share of bugs and give up the night life (at least for a while...) for some damn fresh air and being able to see more than five trees at a time. But the allure of large cities for people who grew up in small towns isn't worth understating, either.
(Edit: to be clear -- I'm definitely not advocating for large cities. I was born and grew up in one so I definitely understand where you're coming from :-D)
I’m writing this comment from a small village close to the Carpathians, where my brother lives and where my family on my father’s side has lived for generations (half of the land on which the village’s church was built was “donated” by my family), I for my self live in a city with a population of 2 million people. As such, I just wanted to comment on the “everybody knows everybody else in a small town/village” and the implicit assumption that that would only cause “positive” feelings. It doesn’t.
Back to my brother: he has been through a nasty divorce (divorces also happen in small towns/villages) and as such half of the village (the one who “listened” to his ex-parents-in-law) now think that he (my brother) is the scum of the earth. That isn’t good at all for my brother’s psyche. Also, my brother happens to be better at what he does (driving a lorry all over Europe for a living and in his free time raising a couple of cows and making some pretty good palinka-like drink) compared to some other villagers, and because of that those villagers sort of envy him, so much so that some of them have directly approached my brother’s new life companion and have told her about how in fact my brother is a not that big of a deal because he hasn’t accomplished this and that and that other thing. And I could go on and on with examples like these, all of which haven’t directly affected me while living in the big city: “My neighbor thinks bad of me? F.ck him, I don’t care what he thinks!”. The quiet and calmness is pretty nice in the village though, of that there’s no doubt.
People have been talking about remote work “leveling the playing field” for a while, but the statistics show the opposite. More people have been moving into cities since remote work has become possible than the opposite. It’s possible this may be because as our work lives become more lonely due to it being remote, cities offer the availability of people that they lack in their day jobs.
Also, the reason cities are expensive is entirely due to the number of people wanting to live there. Setting aside housing demand/supply, cities are more efficient and cheaper than small towns by far. It would be interesting to see how livable small and rural towns would be if it wasn’t for the variety of subsidies the US government offers these areas (subsidized postal services, roads, etc. that are largely paid by people living in cities in the US, where the majority of the economic benefits of the US are generated).
> 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks.
Yes, this sounds amazing. In fact you've just described exactly what (most) in the big city enjoy about it.
You also described a vanishingly small amount of American small towns. Most are much more akin to suburbs, which to me is the absolutely worst form of living yet invented.
I completely understand those who want to live in small towns/rural area around nature. I completely understand those who want to live in a big city with big city conveniences. I simply do not understand those who want to live in between.
I grew up in São Paulo. Then I moved to Dublin, Ireland (which is, compared to São Paulo, tiny, but, with over a million people living here, shouldn't be called a small town).
I now live in a quiet and walkable city. Have a huge shared backyard where kids in the neighborhood play. We all know each other, we have Whatsapp groups for the neighborhood (wives created one, husbands, half-jokingly, created another to keep a balance of power). I almost never have to use a car. We have only one.
I never considered moving to a smaller city, but, really, I can see the appeal of not living between tall buildings, with sirens, beeps, engines and the constant hum of large city.
I'm now in San Francisco (for the week) and the constant noise is already getting on my nerves again (happens every time I come here - I'll be cranky for 3 days or so - and, mind you, I've been living in Dublin for only two years and grew up in São Paulo).
Some of us don't feel comfortable if everyone knows each other. I don't know my neighbors and I like it that way. I have more options for stores,etc... More services are available in big cities too. More banking options,more car repair places,more grocery shops and placss of entertainment. There are nice parks if I want trees,or I could just drive out of the city on the weekend. I'm just saying, everyone has their own priorities.
> Everyone knows each other. Very tight knit community.
That's my main problem with it. Grew up in a small city and this was exactly the case. In a big city I can pick the people I want to deal with, in a small town this is inpossible without creating tensions.
I live in a small town, work remotely for the most part, and love it. In my town, the number of people who work remotely is steadily increasing. The remote workers tend to have higher incomes which brings in more resources to the town, but also creates some divisions.
For example, there’s a “yuppie” coffee shop and a “hippie” coffee shop. They’re both great, but there’s a noticeable cultural divide and some animosity on both ends. People who have been here their whole lives are starting to get priced out of the area, and they’re understandably leery of non locals. We’ve already had long time businesses shut down because they couldn’t afford rising rents. There’s a vocal group who are very much against new developments that would taint the old charm and probably raise prices.
Our town is actually pretty progressive though, and is already investing in low cost housing, but I doubt that’ll be enough. I see a bright future ahead for our small town, but managing the growth without losing our sense of history and community is going to be difficult.
“I'll take my country life as a remote worker going on 8 years. Trees, forest, wildlife, fresh air, backyards. 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks.”
My neighborhood in Chicago has all of these things and I can walk to the train for work every day.
> I'll take my country life as a remote worker going on 8 years. Trees, forest, wildlife, fresh air, backyards. 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks.
If you don't mind a bit of privacy invasion, what city/town do you live in? One of the biggest reasons I live in a big city is that I like being able to take a 5 minute walk to get to anything I need. Stereotypical suburbs/rural areas are primarily built for cars, not pedestrians/cyclists.
I got both. Living in one of the big cities in Germany, but on the outta rim of it. 10min walk and I'm in the forrest, 10min subway and I'm in the city center.
I'm glad you've found something that works for you (really!) but you're cherry-picking. The key problem is this:
> 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks.
This might be true for you but that's probably because your income is much higher than the median where you live such that you can afford just off Main St is whatever qualifies as central where you live.
By definition not everyone can do that. And I say by definition because:
- Average walking speed is about 5 feet per second
- 5 minutes to just one of the destinations you mention puts you at at radius of 1500 feet
- The average supermarket size is, say, 40,000 square feet [1]
- Let's assume an entry on each side and a square footprint of 200x200. That doesn't include parking
- It seems ~150 parking spaces per acre is a good estimate [2], putting the space for each at roughly 300 square feet
- I can't find any stats or the average number of parking spaces for a supermarket so let's go with 100 for 30,000 square feet bringing out supermarket footprint to 70,000
- Assuming these things are circular (best case) and you can walk in straight lines (best case) the radius of the store is 112 feet. The parking lot eats another 38 feet of that
- So the circle for being within 5 minutes is 112 feet + 1500 feet - 70,000 square feet, which we'll call ~8 million square feet.
- Average lot sizes are harder to figure out. There's data like this [3] but that includes cities. Even in big cities like Atlanta or Kansas City you can see lot sizes over an acre.
- There is also things you need to roads, (more) parking spaces and so on so probably a better way to approach this is houses per acre [4]. Based on medians of 24 acres and 60 housing units, that puts the average house footprint (including ancillary services) at ~18,000 square feet. I actually think that's rather generous too as the figures were for a subdivision. Small towns (with the possible exception of older towns such as what you have in New England) will probably have higher average house footprints.
- That means within our circle we have ~440 houses.
- According to the 2010 census, the average was 2.58 people per household [5]
- So ~1100 people get to walk to the supermarket in 5 minutes.
- So with 10,000 people, only 1 in 9 has this lifestyle.
- That's just one your points of interest (the market). Add in restaurants, parks and the other things you mentioned and it gets a lot worse very quickly.
My point here is that you are in a privileged position and your characterization of "small town life" is unrepresentative. Most people will have to drive everywhere.
Now granted traffic probably won't be as bad as say LA or Chicago. My point is that being able to walk everywhere in a small town (in the USA at least) is highly unusual, not remotely representative and highly privileged (locally speaking).
These kinda of comments seem to be growing in frequency on HN.
Why? Who cares what decisions people make? I've lived on acreage in the woods, small towns, suburbs, mid sized cities and urban environments and guess what? The only thing I've learned is that each has pros and cons and that every time I've said I would "never" live in one of those situations again I was surprised when I chose to do that very thing.
Why limit your lifestyle options with arbitrary mental boxes? Maybe I'm just getting tired of reading strangers opinions on the internet, it seems like a waste of mental energy...but as you say- "To each their own"
This idea works really well for remote developers.
I live in the tiny, 1,000 person, village of Arbonne-la-Foret, smack dab in the middle of nowhere, France. That is, unless you're a rock climber, in which case it's exactly in the center of the largest concentration of fantastic bouldering on the planet. American companies are happy to pay me the same to work from here as from that little Ohio town in the article, or from the Bay Area.
I think the strategy to follow if you're in tech these days is to:
1. figure out the thing you like to do most in life,
2. find the best place in the world to do that thing,
3. move there and,
4. contract remotely for a company based in the San Francisco Bay Area.
There is good internet everywhere. I'm finding less and less reason why anybody who could would ever want to work in an office.
Sorry to nitpick but that "smack dab in the middle of nowhere" is 40 miles from Paris :) Anyway, it is very surprising that freelancing and remote work are taking off so slowly. At the company where I do remote freelance work I think less than 10% are freelancers and less than half of those are remote, even if the opportunity exists for almost everyone, even employees could switch to a freelance contract.
With respect to smack dab in the middle of nowhere, I think this is a matter of relative scale. For reference, I grew up six miles outside of Conrad Montana, which isn't all that "close" to anything. However, my cousins thought nothing of hopping in the car to drive to the middle of Utah to check out a dog that someone was giving away. Or take a little further east to the town of Jordan, Montana where there is no railroad and the biggest events are the high school football games. My friend works at the University in Missoula, and complains that in driving back east, after an 8 hour drive he is still in Montana.
And Montana isn't even the biggest state. There are counties in Texas that are too small to have courthouses, so they share them with neighbors. That are not really walking distance. Check out the book "Miles from Nowhere". It tells of two census takers who ran out of gas and were lost for days in a county in populous Oregon.
My definition of remote is likely different from yours. I would define it as no internet access other than satellite, no roads connecting the rest of the country, no waterway access. I would be hard pressed to find somewhere in Europe that is smack dab in the middle of nowhere.
My wife and I have been debating a move to France. Are you French, or did you move there from elsewhere? If you moved, how was that process? Any tips on expatriating?
We like where we live currently (small town USA), and the thing that really keeps us here is family.
The thought of working in an office is a big NOPE for me. I can’t EVER see myself going in to work somewhere. This ends all sorts of roads for me but I just have it so damn good to ever change it.
The strategy seems easy to execute but the first two points are quite tricky.
I've been trying to figure out what I'd like to do and where for the past 12 months. I've been jumping from one continent to another, living in villages under 50 people and in multimillion metropolises - all this while working remotely for clients in Europe. They didn't care where am I as long as I replied to emails in a timely manner. In South America I had to wake up at 4am and in Asia I would go to sleep at that time, but that's the only inconvenience I had.
Amazing part of the world. I lived there for a year as a child (Bois-le-Roi) when my Dad was teaching in Insead and visited every summer (to a small village called Recloses) until I graduated high school. Fontainebleau is not exactly the middle of nowhere though. Only around an hour by train to Paris.
We used to go bouldering in Buthiers, which I'm sure you've visited. It was also the location for the world mountain bike trials championships in the 90's.
One of my favourite places in the area is the sand quarry near Bourron-Marlotte (48.342808, 2.676220). Highly recommend a day trip there.
Small towns get worse the further you are from the default. For example, dating here is terrible. All the men are assholes or very deep in the closet.
The women are super religious. Think bible quotes as Tinder profiles. And I don't mean "their bios have a lot about religion in them." I mean that's their whole profile. A bible quote.
And I doubt many gender non-comforming people in my age range are out about it. There is no way I'm taking my queer ass to one of the three dive bars to do it the traditional way.
That's not even getting into the lack of entertainment options. This town is at least close enough to Atlanta and Athens for good internet options and reasonable support for LGBT+ people in government. They had updated marriage licenses ready before the SCOTUS ruling.
If you're a straight, white, cis dude who doesn't mind traveling to the nearest city for anything fun to do, knock yourself out. At least get a hotel paid monthly and spend some real quality time in a prospective small town first. Even if you are super default, I don't see how you could enjoy it if you're remotely intellectually curious.
Six years ago our remotely working family was choosing between Canada and Chile (these countries have freelancer-friendly immigration[1]). After looking at the costs of life and real estate in Canada, Chile won and we moved to a small southern city[2]. It is walkable, green, full of various stores and services but still small enough to occasionally run into your friends in the downtown. I feel more at home here than in St. Petersburg where I've spent most of my life.
We live very comfortably here for less than $2k/mo for two people and expect to build a house for less than $150k (including half a hectare of land that we have bought already). I think it's quite easy to retire early in these conditions even on a moderate remote income ($50-60k). Also, Chilean personal income taxes are the lowest in the OECD[3].
Cool! Chile looks like an interesting country - you can pick a climate that suits your fancy... but in practice, how does that work out? Are there differences (besides the weather) between north and south? Did you speak Spanish when you went? Have you written about your experiences?
That's what I did, some years ago, as a consultant. Once I had enough steady clients, I moved to a small town, where living expenses were much lower.
However, I did pick a college town, not very far from interstates, Amtrak and a regional airport. So meeting clients hasn't been a huge hassle. And there are interesting communities, including a maker space.
And damn, the vibe is amazing. As much as I come off online as a privacy extremist, I love the intimacy. Neighbors care about each other. There's no need to lock your doors. Neighbors ask about strange vehicles and people. They know you at the post office. I've received mail addressed to just name, city, state and postal code.
But of course, I never talk about Mirimir etc there ;)
That's what I did, some years ago, as a consultant. Once I had enough steady clients, I moved to a small town, where living expenses were much lower.
I'm living in NYC and looking into something similar. The rent is absurd and the vast majority of the work I do is conducted electronically. I read this article and was like, "Very close to my reaction." I don't want to move to a really small town, but somewhere like Nashville or Columbus, OH is appealing.
A huge upside for small town living is livability for people with disabilities. It's a major reason, for example, that people like to retire to smaller towns. It's also why it is expensive to rear more than a couple small kids in a major urban area, assuming you can consider babies and toddlers (temporarily) less-than-able human beings.
It varies from big city to big city, but older areas of cities are usually grandfathered out of ADA regulations that require wider doors, accessibility ramps, elevators, etc. Parking at all in most cities is atrocious, let alone handicap parking with extra room to unload a wheelchair. Wide aisles are a waste of space in dense urban areas but needed if you need to get a wheelchair to the only open table in the back of the room. Shoving your way on to a crowded train car is distasteful when young and healthy but a deal breaker for many. See also availability of handicap bathroom stalls. The list goes on.
I was recently at a museum in a small city and was struck with how many visitors had significant disabilities of various kinds. For all the diversity we come to expect from large cities, this kind of diversity is probably lacking.
I've always been under the impression that small towns aren't accessible from an aging and disabled perspective. Even the smallest tasks require a car and there's little to no public transportation. Whereas in cities, you might only have to go to the corner to grab necessities or get medication from your pharmacy.
I've worked with Meals on Wheels in suburban areas. Often, if the elderly didn't live in a senior community/nursing home or didn't have family nearby, they barely left home because they physically, or legally, couldn't drive. That means they don't see doctors when they need to, and lacked food, medication and basic necessities. Taxis exist, but they're relatively expensive if you're retired and living off of Social Security.
I lived in Irvine CA, my studio rent was 1650 one of the cheaper ones in the complex. Wife and I made combined 110k a year and all we had enough for was to pay living expenses when figure in everything else. Then I lost my job and had to pick up freelancing as nobody else was hiring - I didn’t have enough experience in the field I wanted to work in. Moved to Vancouver WA and was able to afford more while getting better freelance gigs. Now I live in rural Japan where a 3 br house costs $500 to rent. I still freelance and have grown my career significantly- with ability to pull over 100k if I wanted to, except now I work less since I want to spend more time with family. Even the money I’m making now, while far far less than many people here, goes a long way. Meanwhile this has enabled me to spend 50% of my time to work on side projects. I am hoping some of them pan out for recurring income so I can drop wage slavery forever. Big cities are fun and all when you are younger. Spend all your money on rent - no problem at that age. Then you get to a point when it all sounds too absurd and you want a lawn, a place to watch your kids play somewhere to slow the hell down from life in the fast lane.
I can see the same thing happening over here in the UK. Me and my partner left London to move to a smaller city Scotland, we now pay 60% of the rent for a place that's twice as big. I still freelance for clients in London and can funnel the extra money into side projects and savings. We actually have a realistic chance of buying a house in the next couple of years too!
One thing I wonder, having seen a few articles recently about people leaving big cities[1], is whether this is a new trend or simply the same thing that happens every generation as people grow older and their priorities change?
I've always thought that people misunderstood the power of remote working. The power is that it lets you live where you want to live while also letting you do the work that you want to regardless of where either is. We love country life. We live in a village of less than 400 people on 100 acres of land yet I work internationally in marketing and my wife is an engineer with a major aerospace company.
Some of my best friends also have jobs that allow them to live in the city they want to live (Tampa area) while working for companies in locations that they have no desire to live in (SF Bay area).
I've always felt that remote working was all about making the connection between the desired career and desired lifestyle where in the past if you wanted to work for major firm X you had to live THERE.
Anybody ever though about downshifting to 3rd world countries in line of this?
I myself work for a SZ based company, moved there from Canada. During production run times I'm in Shenzhen, and the rest of the time I'm stationed in a random "developing country" trying to "play a big man," fraternise with local business and political establishments, trying to win bets.
We have few Americans in the company, all of them are from "flyover" states. They all say China is a way better bet in moving up the ladder for them than Silicon Valley.
I moved to CA not for work, but family. There was nothing to do in my home state in the south, and I lived in the capital.
In CA I have endless opportunities, events, family activities, and access to a huge variety of landscapes. Having both the ocean and mountains within easy reach is a big advantage. Food is also so much better out here. And then the people -- it's nice to live around people who think and feel the same way.
I sometimes think through moving back, or somewhere else with low cost of living, but I'm not willing to give everything up.
Truckee looks pretty great for this sort of thing. It's only 35 minutes drive from Reno too. So getting out and getting fancier food or whatever is very much doable for an evening.
It's interesting that more people don't move to places like this. Perhaps the difficulty of obtaining well paid work is the hard part.
Simple fact is I think many many people would look for better places to live if they could afford the lifestyle they wanted there. That’s why so many of my friends have moved from the Bay Area to Seattle and then to Colorado and sometimes to Portland now.
Main downside of moving to a small town if you’re LGBT or queer is that you’re always going to be the odd one out - at the very least you won’t have much of a dating pool.
An unwelcome side effect is that incoming city dwellers can push up prices for people already in these small towns who don’t have the option to relocate.
My partner and I are making this move soon - we should go from a two bedroom terraced house to a good four bedroom with a nice garden, along with quieter roads, less crime, pollution and all the rest of it. In the absence of a decent regional policy I'd say we are doing our bit as two educated professionals to spread the wealth!
I hate having to be part of this system and resisted as long as I could, but if you don't own property in the UK you are virtually a non-person in some senses.
It is perfectly reasonable. But you still have to have sales or other good contact on the ground in big city. Because if in walking distance you have 100 customers you can maintain connection with people working there. If you will move to small town where you don't have customers and you have to rely on your contacts over the internet then you might get burned when your contacts switch jobs or whatever happens.
There’s a perk for the small towns, too: they get “tech money” without having to court a “tech industry”. This brings money into the community that would otherwise be left outside it.
I see remote workers as an equalizer / booster for communities that have a small economy with little outside interaction with the larger economy. I’m thinking of small rural towns, groups of 2,000 ppl or fewer that are geographically isolated.
This is something that I'm currently debating and have been thinking about a lot lately. NYC is so expensive and makes it insanely hard to save anything. Moving to say Woodstock, NY would be half the price, 2 hours away on a bus, and its beautiful.
I also think that people from small towns can give you a different perceptive on ideas and life that you can't get anywhere else.
A friens of mine was once working with a developer who charged SF market rates but lived somewhere in Idaho. Part of me wishes for that, how much he must be cash flowing.
Also i find it ironic that despite all our advances in technology most tech companies insist on people working in office.
[+] [-] tylerjwilk00|7 years ago|reply
When I read the stories of big city lifestyles I'm amazed so many people opt-in to it. Traffic, noise, concrete everywhere. Yuck - but to each their own.
I'll take my country life as a remote worker going on 8 years. Trees, forest, wildlife, fresh air, backyards. 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks.
Everyone knows each other. Very tight knit community. Don't even get me started on cost of living differences. I'll never leave.
Remote work really levels the playing field and unlocks a lot of potential for rural and small towns. All happening at a time when the staple of resource extraction is declining but global connectivity is increasing. There may be a bright future for small towns yet.
[+] [-] jacobmoe|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 3pt14159|7 years ago|reply
> 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks.
Almost every small town in Ontario is car-centric. The big ugly parking lots push the shops further from the street. There is no bike lanes to speak of. The coffee shops don't feel lively, they feel depressed, and the coffee is usually Tim Hortons or worse.
What I want is a hipster small town, built around bikes and walkability. Close enough to a lake to be fun, but not so close to make it all about "water life". I want a city where artists and computer scientists can both afford to be there. High property taxes, but with a per-person dividend / basic income so the effective property taxes are progressive.
[+] [-] alxlaz|7 years ago|reply
My mother is from one of these small towns and she hates almost every single thing you enumerated:
- - "Everyone knows each other" is a nightmare when you're a teenager. News that you did something stupid or peculiar can sometimes get home before you do, sometimes amplified. And if you don't want to be that close to everyone, you can end up being treated as a freak.
- Trees, forest, wildlife, backyards -- also the occasional possibly rabid fox, bugs everywhere, sweeping the leaves...
- Five minutes walk or one minute drive to shop for groceries. If they're out of ketchup, tough luck 'cause the nearest one is thirty minutes away and you have to cross the railroad tracks, too.
To those of us who live in the city, these things don't look bad at all. I'd certainly endure my share of bugs and give up the night life (at least for a while...) for some damn fresh air and being able to see more than five trees at a time. But the allure of large cities for people who grew up in small towns isn't worth understating, either.
(Edit: to be clear -- I'm definitely not advocating for large cities. I was born and grew up in one so I definitely understand where you're coming from :-D)
[+] [-] paganel|7 years ago|reply
Back to my brother: he has been through a nasty divorce (divorces also happen in small towns/villages) and as such half of the village (the one who “listened” to his ex-parents-in-law) now think that he (my brother) is the scum of the earth. That isn’t good at all for my brother’s psyche. Also, my brother happens to be better at what he does (driving a lorry all over Europe for a living and in his free time raising a couple of cows and making some pretty good palinka-like drink) compared to some other villagers, and because of that those villagers sort of envy him, so much so that some of them have directly approached my brother’s new life companion and have told her about how in fact my brother is a not that big of a deal because he hasn’t accomplished this and that and that other thing. And I could go on and on with examples like these, all of which haven’t directly affected me while living in the big city: “My neighbor thinks bad of me? F.ck him, I don’t care what he thinks!”. The quiet and calmness is pretty nice in the village though, of that there’s no doubt.
[+] [-] addicted|7 years ago|reply
Also, the reason cities are expensive is entirely due to the number of people wanting to live there. Setting aside housing demand/supply, cities are more efficient and cheaper than small towns by far. It would be interesting to see how livable small and rural towns would be if it wasn’t for the variety of subsidies the US government offers these areas (subsidized postal services, roads, etc. that are largely paid by people living in cities in the US, where the majority of the economic benefits of the US are generated).
[+] [-] phil21|7 years ago|reply
Yes, this sounds amazing. In fact you've just described exactly what (most) in the big city enjoy about it.
You also described a vanishingly small amount of American small towns. Most are much more akin to suburbs, which to me is the absolutely worst form of living yet invented.
I completely understand those who want to live in small towns/rural area around nature. I completely understand those who want to live in a big city with big city conveniences. I simply do not understand those who want to live in between.
[+] [-] rbanffy|7 years ago|reply
I now live in a quiet and walkable city. Have a huge shared backyard where kids in the neighborhood play. We all know each other, we have Whatsapp groups for the neighborhood (wives created one, husbands, half-jokingly, created another to keep a balance of power). I almost never have to use a car. We have only one.
I never considered moving to a smaller city, but, really, I can see the appeal of not living between tall buildings, with sirens, beeps, engines and the constant hum of large city.
I'm now in San Francisco (for the week) and the constant noise is already getting on my nerves again (happens every time I come here - I'll be cranky for 3 days or so - and, mind you, I've been living in Dublin for only two years and grew up in São Paulo).
[+] [-] badrabbit|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ahoy|7 years ago|reply
I've never lived in, or even seen, a small town in america where this was possible.
[+] [-] 1337biz|7 years ago|reply
That's my main problem with it. Grew up in a small city and this was exactly the case. In a big city I can pick the people I want to deal with, in a small town this is inpossible without creating tensions.
[+] [-] programmarchy|7 years ago|reply
For example, there’s a “yuppie” coffee shop and a “hippie” coffee shop. They’re both great, but there’s a noticeable cultural divide and some animosity on both ends. People who have been here their whole lives are starting to get priced out of the area, and they’re understandably leery of non locals. We’ve already had long time businesses shut down because they couldn’t afford rising rents. There’s a vocal group who are very much against new developments that would taint the old charm and probably raise prices.
Our town is actually pretty progressive though, and is already investing in low cost housing, but I doubt that’ll be enough. I see a bright future ahead for our small town, but managing the growth without losing our sense of history and community is going to be difficult.
[+] [-] moorhosj|7 years ago|reply
My neighborhood in Chicago has all of these things and I can walk to the train for work every day.
[+] [-] the_gastropod|7 years ago|reply
If you don't mind a bit of privacy invasion, what city/town do you live in? One of the biggest reasons I live in a big city is that I like being able to take a 5 minute walk to get to anything I need. Stereotypical suburbs/rural areas are primarily built for cars, not pedestrians/cyclists.
[+] [-] mixmastamyk|7 years ago|reply
> Trees, forest, wildlife, fresh air, backyards. 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to…
Guessing that the number of places in the middle of a forest with a five minute walk to spectacular shopping are quite rare.
[+] [-] k__|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sneak|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cletus|7 years ago|reply
> 5 minutes walk or 1 minute drive to a shop for groceries, hardware, lumber, restaurants, kid parks.
This might be true for you but that's probably because your income is much higher than the median where you live such that you can afford just off Main St is whatever qualifies as central where you live.
By definition not everyone can do that. And I say by definition because:
- Average walking speed is about 5 feet per second
- 5 minutes to just one of the destinations you mention puts you at at radius of 1500 feet
- The average supermarket size is, say, 40,000 square feet [1]
- Let's assume an entry on each side and a square footprint of 200x200. That doesn't include parking
- It seems ~150 parking spaces per acre is a good estimate [2], putting the space for each at roughly 300 square feet
- I can't find any stats or the average number of parking spaces for a supermarket so let's go with 100 for 30,000 square feet bringing out supermarket footprint to 70,000
- Assuming these things are circular (best case) and you can walk in straight lines (best case) the radius of the store is 112 feet. The parking lot eats another 38 feet of that
- So the circle for being within 5 minutes is 112 feet + 1500 feet - 70,000 square feet, which we'll call ~8 million square feet.
- Average lot sizes are harder to figure out. There's data like this [3] but that includes cities. Even in big cities like Atlanta or Kansas City you can see lot sizes over an acre.
- There is also things you need to roads, (more) parking spaces and so on so probably a better way to approach this is houses per acre [4]. Based on medians of 24 acres and 60 housing units, that puts the average house footprint (including ancillary services) at ~18,000 square feet. I actually think that's rather generous too as the figures were for a subdivision. Small towns (with the possible exception of older towns such as what you have in New England) will probably have higher average house footprints.
- That means within our circle we have ~440 houses.
- According to the 2010 census, the average was 2.58 people per household [5]
- So ~1100 people get to walk to the supermarket in 5 minutes.
- So with 10,000 people, only 1 in 9 has this lifestyle.
- That's just one your points of interest (the market). Add in restaurants, parks and the other things you mentioned and it gets a lot worse very quickly.
My point here is that you are in a privileged position and your characterization of "small town life" is unrepresentative. Most people will have to drive everywhere.
Now granted traffic probably won't be as bad as say LA or Chicago. My point is that being able to walk everywhere in a small town (in the USA at least) is highly unusual, not remotely representative and highly privileged (locally speaking).
[1]: http://time.com/money/136330/why-your-grocery-store-may-soon...
[2]: https://ag.tennessee.edu/cpa/Information%20Sheets/CPA%20222....
[3]: http://eyeonhousing.org/2016/07/lots-in-2015-are-smallest-on...
[4]: https://www.nahb.org/en/research/housing-economics/special-s...
[5]: https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-14.pdf
[+] [-] tjr225|7 years ago|reply
Why? Who cares what decisions people make? I've lived on acreage in the woods, small towns, suburbs, mid sized cities and urban environments and guess what? The only thing I've learned is that each has pros and cons and that every time I've said I would "never" live in one of those situations again I was surprised when I chose to do that very thing.
Why limit your lifestyle options with arbitrary mental boxes? Maybe I'm just getting tired of reading strangers opinions on the internet, it seems like a waste of mental energy...but as you say- "To each their own"
[+] [-] kel92ndjd|7 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] bytematic|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jasonkester|7 years ago|reply
I live in the tiny, 1,000 person, village of Arbonne-la-Foret, smack dab in the middle of nowhere, France. That is, unless you're a rock climber, in which case it's exactly in the center of the largest concentration of fantastic bouldering on the planet. American companies are happy to pay me the same to work from here as from that little Ohio town in the article, or from the Bay Area.
I think the strategy to follow if you're in tech these days is to:
There is good internet everywhere. I'm finding less and less reason why anybody who could would ever want to work in an office.[+] [-] patkai|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wglb|7 years ago|reply
And Montana isn't even the biggest state. There are counties in Texas that are too small to have courthouses, so they share them with neighbors. That are not really walking distance. Check out the book "Miles from Nowhere". It tells of two census takers who ran out of gas and were lost for days in a county in populous Oregon.
My definition of remote is likely different from yours. I would define it as no internet access other than satellite, no roads connecting the rest of the country, no waterway access. I would be hard pressed to find somewhere in Europe that is smack dab in the middle of nowhere.
[+] [-] christophilus|7 years ago|reply
We like where we live currently (small town USA), and the thing that really keeps us here is family.
[+] [-] mrhappyunhappy|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eruci|7 years ago|reply
Still, as someone who has (as is still doing) the remote thing (Vlore Albania, Sackville NB Canada -pop <2000) I completely agree :)
[+] [-] lu_|7 years ago|reply
I've been trying to figure out what I'd like to do and where for the past 12 months. I've been jumping from one continent to another, living in villages under 50 people and in multimillion metropolises - all this while working remotely for clients in Europe. They didn't care where am I as long as I replied to emails in a timely manner. In South America I had to wake up at 4am and in Asia I would go to sleep at that time, but that's the only inconvenience I had.
p.s. No, good internet isn't everywhere :)
[+] [-] rorykoehler|7 years ago|reply
We used to go bouldering in Buthiers, which I'm sure you've visited. It was also the location for the world mountain bike trials championships in the 90's.
One of my favourite places in the area is the sand quarry near Bourron-Marlotte (48.342808, 2.676220). Highly recommend a day trip there.
[+] [-] rainbowmverse|7 years ago|reply
The women are super religious. Think bible quotes as Tinder profiles. And I don't mean "their bios have a lot about religion in them." I mean that's their whole profile. A bible quote.
And I doubt many gender non-comforming people in my age range are out about it. There is no way I'm taking my queer ass to one of the three dive bars to do it the traditional way.
That's not even getting into the lack of entertainment options. This town is at least close enough to Atlanta and Athens for good internet options and reasonable support for LGBT+ people in government. They had updated marriage licenses ready before the SCOTUS ruling.
If you're a straight, white, cis dude who doesn't mind traveling to the nearest city for anything fun to do, knock yourself out. At least get a hotel paid monthly and spend some real quality time in a prospective small town first. Even if you are super default, I don't see how you could enjoy it if you're remotely intellectually curious.
I'm getting out of here ASAP.
[+] [-] ivm|7 years ago|reply
We live very comfortably here for less than $2k/mo for two people and expect to build a house for less than $150k (including half a hectare of land that we have bought already). I think it's quite easy to retire early in these conditions even on a moderate remote income ($50-60k). Also, Chilean personal income taxes are the lowest in the OECD[3].
[1]: https://qotoqot.com/blog/best-countries/
[2]: https://valdiviaguide.com/
[3]: http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-chile.pdf
[+] [-] davidw|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mirimir|7 years ago|reply
However, I did pick a college town, not very far from interstates, Amtrak and a regional airport. So meeting clients hasn't been a huge hassle. And there are interesting communities, including a maker space.
And damn, the vibe is amazing. As much as I come off online as a privacy extremist, I love the intimacy. Neighbors care about each other. There's no need to lock your doors. Neighbors ask about strange vehicles and people. They know you at the post office. I've received mail addressed to just name, city, state and postal code.
But of course, I never talk about Mirimir etc there ;)
[+] [-] jseliger|7 years ago|reply
I'm living in NYC and looking into something similar. The rent is absurd and the vast majority of the work I do is conducted electronically. I read this article and was like, "Very close to my reaction." I don't want to move to a really small town, but somewhere like Nashville or Columbus, OH is appealing.
[+] [-] humanrebar|7 years ago|reply
It varies from big city to big city, but older areas of cities are usually grandfathered out of ADA regulations that require wider doors, accessibility ramps, elevators, etc. Parking at all in most cities is atrocious, let alone handicap parking with extra room to unload a wheelchair. Wide aisles are a waste of space in dense urban areas but needed if you need to get a wheelchair to the only open table in the back of the room. Shoving your way on to a crowded train car is distasteful when young and healthy but a deal breaker for many. See also availability of handicap bathroom stalls. The list goes on.
I was recently at a museum in a small city and was struck with how many visitors had significant disabilities of various kinds. For all the diversity we come to expect from large cities, this kind of diversity is probably lacking.
[+] [-] darpa_escapee|7 years ago|reply
I've worked with Meals on Wheels in suburban areas. Often, if the elderly didn't live in a senior community/nursing home or didn't have family nearby, they barely left home because they physically, or legally, couldn't drive. That means they don't see doctors when they need to, and lacked food, medication and basic necessities. Taxis exist, but they're relatively expensive if you're retired and living off of Social Security.
[+] [-] mrhappyunhappy|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adam-a|7 years ago|reply
One thing I wonder, having seen a few articles recently about people leaving big cities[1], is whether this is a new trend or simply the same thing that happens every generation as people grow older and their priorities change?
[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jun/28/london-propert...
[+] [-] SteveGerencser|7 years ago|reply
Some of my best friends also have jobs that allow them to live in the city they want to live (Tampa area) while working for companies in locations that they have no desire to live in (SF Bay area).
I've always felt that remote working was all about making the connection between the desired career and desired lifestyle where in the past if you wanted to work for major firm X you had to live THERE.
[+] [-] baybal2|7 years ago|reply
I myself work for a SZ based company, moved there from Canada. During production run times I'm in Shenzhen, and the rest of the time I'm stationed in a random "developing country" trying to "play a big man," fraternise with local business and political establishments, trying to win bets.
We have few Americans in the company, all of them are from "flyover" states. They all say China is a way better bet in moving up the ladder for them than Silicon Valley.
[+] [-] legohead|7 years ago|reply
In CA I have endless opportunities, events, family activities, and access to a huge variety of landscapes. Having both the ocean and mountains within easy reach is a big advantage. Food is also so much better out here. And then the people -- it's nice to live around people who think and feel the same way.
I sometimes think through moving back, or somewhere else with low cost of living, but I'm not willing to give everything up.
[+] [-] sien|7 years ago|reply
It's interesting that more people don't move to places like this. Perhaps the difficulty of obtaining well paid work is the hard part.
[+] [-] taurath|7 years ago|reply
Main downside of moving to a small town if you’re LGBT or queer is that you’re always going to be the odd one out - at the very least you won’t have much of a dating pool.
[+] [-] wayanon|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] growlist|7 years ago|reply
I hate having to be part of this system and resisted as long as I could, but if you don't own property in the UK you are virtually a non-person in some senses.
[+] [-] ozim|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rpvnwnkl|7 years ago|reply
I see remote workers as an equalizer / booster for communities that have a small economy with little outside interaction with the larger economy. I’m thinking of small rural towns, groups of 2,000 ppl or fewer that are geographically isolated.
[+] [-] austincheney|7 years ago|reply
It has a feel of utter isolation but the town is big enough that it isn't quite like living in Antarctica.
[+] [-] jimkri|7 years ago|reply
I also think that people from small towns can give you a different perceptive on ideas and life that you can't get anywhere else.
[+] [-] xivzgrev|7 years ago|reply
Also i find it ironic that despite all our advances in technology most tech companies insist on people working in office.