I've been watching him for quite a while. One the most interesting videos is where he gets his rebuilt Tesla (Delores) to supercharge. On the face of it, that does not sound like a big deal. However, it is much more interesting than that. It basically exposes the fact that supercharging is managed by client-side security.
Tesla has all kinds of restrictions on what vehicles are allowed to supercharge, and whether or not you'll be charged a fee. For example, my friend's S is a 2015 with supercharging that transfers with the vehicle, so that if he sells it to you, you can still supercharge. My 2017 X has free supercharging that is restricted to the first owner, so if I sell you my car, you'll end up paying for supercharging. And if either one of our cars is wrecked, and Tesla finds out about it, they will not allow the cars to supercharge at all until they are "recertified" by Tesla, at a cost of thousands of dollars.
If you buy a salvage Tesla, I'd suggest that (unless you've rooted it, and know how to re-enable supercharging) that you just pull the sim card, and don't let it connect to your wifi. That will (hopefully) preserve your ability to supercharge at the price of making the giant touchscreen basically useless.
I've watched his videos, and they are awesome.. but I am also somewhat surprised he hasn't electrocuted himself yet. All that said, his point is 100% on base. right now Tesla has gotten around without addressing right-to-repair issues. The model 3 is supposed to be a mainstream car. One of the reasons I have not pulled the trigger yet on my deposit, is because I am not convinced that anyone other then Tesla can repair it.
I watch this guy on YouTube, Louis Rossman, who fixes MacBooks. This reminds me exactly of his experiences. Macs are increasingly more difficult to repair and Apple generally wants to own the repair experience so they can funnel you towards a new purchase.
Cars these days can run half a million miles in their lifetime if you treat them right and replace the pieces that break. Could you imagine a future where cars followed the Apple model?
This seems to me like more of an industry-wide thing than just a Tesla thing. I'm not happy about it, either, but I wouldn't recommend most car owners take their Leaf, Volt or even Prius to anyone but the manufacturer for major service at this point.
There are probably quite a few more cars I would add to that list without hesitation, and it's only going to grow.
Wow first time heard someone capable of repair a Tesla. I always was assuming Tesla cars are designed to be hostile to repair outside their own factory (partially due to inherent complexity, and market strategy as well).
Also huge respect to his belief that things people bought should always be repairable by the owner (with some reasonable learned skills).
Doesn't a Tesla have fewer parts than a conventional vehicle? If so, I'd imagine that they're simpler to fix as long as the person knows what they're doing / is willing to learn.
I see this belief (that things people bought should always be repairable by the owner) by many but I always feel it’s extremely self-centered. IMO it’s reckless to think this way about repairing complex systems that can affect others.
Repairing something that you own that only affects you is different from repairing something like a car that could affect others. As a completely fictional example: incorrectly repairing a complex brake system could pose a danger to other drivers and lead to an -otherwise avoidable- accident.
EDIT: some responses are focusing too closely on the example of brakes- perhaps it’s not the best way to illustrate my point. Say, instead, your engine broke or your self driving car’s software was malfunctioning. Should you still have the right to repair?
Tesla seems to be <!--towing--> toeing a line between:
A) manufacturing vehicles for sale as an exclusively-electric auto maker...
and
B) manufacturing the necessary hardware, but then just collecting an equiptment-fee. This equipment is required, but enables use of their smart-car-as-a-service driving subscription (Terms and Conditions subjuct to change without notice).
I wonder if some Tesla cars will end up like old set-top boxes for some paid Satellite TV service (DirecTV): utterly useless, illegal to circumvent due to Tesla IP violations required, but still yours to keep!
Last time Automakers tried crap like Telsa is trying we got the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act
I would have hope we would get a revision that protects consumers but we are more likely to see a repeal of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act from both Democrats and Republicans than any support for lowering of Intellectual privilege protections. (Democrats are in the pocket of Hollywood who lives and dies on copyright laws)
> Tesla's stance on rebuilding vehicles is that only they should be able to do it
I had no idea they had this kind of stance -- is there any more nuance to it?
If there isn't I cannot conscience supporting Tesla in any way again -- there's no way I'm going to help a company that disregards/works against right-to-repair get a monopoly. Just the same reason I avoid buying iDevices.
Tesla doesn't do body work, it's all done by 3rd parties.
But if you don't buy iDevices for that reason, you probably don't want a Tesla. Me, the one time I broke a screen, I used a 3rd party repair service, no problems.
There's a quote from Tesla spokesperson at the end of the video:
> Tesla continued that its customers are free to do what they want with their cars, including doing their own work to repair salvaged vehicles. They added that there are significant safety concerns when salvaged Teslas are repaired by unqualified mechanics, as these vehicles could pose a danger to both the mechanic and other drivers on the road.
Basically, already every single time a Tesla gets a car accident, the news loves to jump all over it. Now if you had people doing a half-ass job and making a defective repair, then the bad press would fall on Tesla.
I've watched a bunch of his videos a while back and he said he had a day job in the tech industry. But basically he's said he wanted a tesla without paying $$$ so he bought some salvage vehicles and did it as a hobby.
But with his channel starting to take off he might have transitioned to a youtube career. At this point he's probably funding a lot of it via youtube income.
One reads that Elon Musk has an interest in colonizing Mars. If Mars ever has a government, they'd better have some Right to Repair laws! Those would me more like, you'd-better-not-be-jerking-your-customers-around-and-let-them-repair-vital-equipment-or-people-might-freakin-die laws!
I have been watching his channel when it was called Car Gurus and he had to change it. What is so awesome is how he is pushing the needle for the right to repair argument. As a TSLA stock holder I want him to continue to push that POV. It will only be a matter of time.
It just occurred to me that there may be another thing I don't see yet mentioned in this thread that gets in the way of repairing Teslas - from what I've read, they make constant changes in their cars during model years, so how do you know which exact parts you have in your car? I bet it's underdocumented.
I have been trying to fix various things in an old car from the 80s, and one of the more annoying aspects is trying to get a replacement part and finding there is a rare variant that I need but has the same part number as the common one. There are also a lot of parts that don't have diagrams or part numbers at all, because they weren't anticipated to be serviced normally.
^This. 3 years ago I had to scrap a low milage 2009 VV GTI because the ABS computer was shot. Of course that module also communicates with all the other electronics on the car and is not readily accessible.
Go online to the forums and read about the nightmare of trying to do this yourself without VW diagnostics to get the new module to work with all the existing components. Even my local shop, who uses a VV tech on the side would not warranty a $3,000 fix. The dealership wanted over $4,500 to fix it. In the end I traded it in where I bought it (I worked there many moons ago and the owner leaned on a wholesaler to buy the car at a very reasonable price).
Just to clarify my point; this was a GTI- a loved car with all kinds of known fixes, fixers and available parts.
finding there is a rare variant that I need but has the same part number as the common one.
That's usually because the replacement is a drop-in compatible replacement; otherwise the part number would also have changed. Note that sometimes this also means a few other parts need to be replaced with new versions too, and if so that would be something mentioned in a service change bulletin (unfortunately rarely available, in contrast to service manuals.)
Uncle Rich! I found Rich's YouTube channel[1] about a year ago when I got my Model X and it's been funny and educational. It definitely sheds a lot of light on how new Tesla is at making cars, but also how much further ahead some of their manufacturing choices are then other auto brands. It's definitely got strong language and he takes lots of shots at Tesla and Tesla Fanboys, but if you've got time to watch the story of someone taking apart a car, then it's amazing.
That was fun to watch, I really admire the guy for his dedication to learning all the various bits of the car. He should publish a manual and sell it to support his web channel, I'd buy a copy!
I've watched Rich Rebuilds for a while, and it's one of about 5 YouTube channels I've bothered to subscribe to. I like Rich and the content in the videos (for the most part, aside from the rants which aren't my favourites).
I watched this yesterday and was pleasantly surprised at the angle of the video - I expected it to be a little more snarky about what he's done, but it presented a much better angle in terms of the right to repair that Tesla clearly fights against.
I'm often told that I'm an Elon Musk fanboy by friends and family - I love what SpaceX is doing, and I want Tesla to succeed (because I'm convinced that the sooner we get ICE-powered vehicles off the roads, the better), but I have spent much of the last 30 years fixing my own vehicles; I built my first motorbike from a written-off bike, and I've owned hundreds of cars. I built my own rally cars and competed in one of them at WRC level. I love fixing things, and as soon as I found out (via Rich Rebuilds, or CarGuru as it was then) about Tesla's policy, my opinion on them changed completely; I still want them to succeed, but I can't imagine ever owning one because of their stance (even though it probably wouldn't affect me, even if I ever did own one, which is unlikely to say the least).
There are a number of people on here taking what appears to me to be a straw man on the 'right to repair' angle - talking about 'repairing the software yourself'. I don't think this is what most people are talking about (and it's certainly not what Rich is talking about). It's about Tesla's restrictive policy over spare parts and repairing vehicles - not down to software level, but to the level that Rich is working at - like-for-like replacement of entire components. If a vehicle is on Tesla's list, then they will not sell you parts. And you can't get pattern parts in the way you can for most ICE vehicles - I'd imagine this is because the supply chain/pool is much smaller (Tesla is a small, niche manufacturer in reality) and they have clauses in place to stop the sale of these parts via other channels. And this is just wrong. There is no more danger in the straight like-for-like replacement of a motor unit or inverter than there is in any other competent repair.
My experience of dealer repair work has been limited, but when it has taken place, it has been poor. The mechanics in question have been of the 'follow a fixed set of instructions in the order given' type, not seeming to know their trade well and get straight to the point. I was quoted over £2000 in labour costs possible to diagnose a problem with a Ford Focus I owned (car was about 5 years old at the time) - 'because we have to do the diagnosis step by step, even if it's obvious it's not that'. Had I taken it there, it would have been the full price as it was one of the last things on the list (small end failure, which was common on that particular engine). Service in the UK is incredibly bad for the most part, and I've seen friends have terrible (and expensive) experiences at franchised, approved garages, with multi-thousand costs being generated to replace parts without any improvement (A friend's BMW X5 is springing to mind).
There is no significant risk to anyone if this kind of repair is carried out by competent personnel. And there are plenty of competent personnel about who would be able to do everything normally needed to repair a Tesla. The service documentation alone would allow that to happen (factory service manuals are generally a goldmine of information, but also written in such simple terms that nearly anyone could follow them), and the supply of the right parts to anyone who wants them - at a price without a prohibitive mark-up - should be a right. I'm saddened that Tesla is instead following a path trying to lock people in to their ecosystem of service - and even more so when they refuse to carry out mandated safety upgrades (such as the airbag mentioned in the piece).
Oh, for anyone who thinks that Rich is really safe.... just do a bit of research into 'safety wood'!
I wonder if things would be different if there wasn't such a big media spotlight on Tesla. Having more repair shops would be a help to them, they are barely coping.
Is this Rich Rebuilds? I discovered his videos recently. I found them really interesting and hilarious. I get the impression he does take appropriate safety precautions.
[+] [-] drewg123|7 years ago|reply
Tesla has all kinds of restrictions on what vehicles are allowed to supercharge, and whether or not you'll be charged a fee. For example, my friend's S is a 2015 with supercharging that transfers with the vehicle, so that if he sells it to you, you can still supercharge. My 2017 X has free supercharging that is restricted to the first owner, so if I sell you my car, you'll end up paying for supercharging. And if either one of our cars is wrecked, and Tesla finds out about it, they will not allow the cars to supercharge at all until they are "recertified" by Tesla, at a cost of thousands of dollars.
If you buy a salvage Tesla, I'd suggest that (unless you've rooted it, and know how to re-enable supercharging) that you just pull the sim card, and don't let it connect to your wifi. That will (hopefully) preserve your ability to supercharge at the price of making the giant touchscreen basically useless.
[+] [-] InTheArena|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Waterluvian|7 years ago|reply
Cars these days can run half a million miles in their lifetime if you treat them right and replace the pieces that break. Could you imagine a future where cars followed the Apple model?
[+] [-] slfnflctd|7 years ago|reply
There are probably quite a few more cars I would add to that list without hesitation, and it's only going to grow.
[+] [-] justicezyx|7 years ago|reply
Also huge respect to his belief that things people bought should always be repairable by the owner (with some reasonable learned skills).
[+] [-] userbinator|7 years ago|reply
They are. That (fortunately) doesn't stop people from still trying, and succeeding. Look up Louis Rossmann and Apple products for a analogous example.
[+] [-] horsecaptin|7 years ago|reply
Really cool video, btw. The message is spot on!
[+] [-] dyarosla|7 years ago|reply
Repairing something that you own that only affects you is different from repairing something like a car that could affect others. As a completely fictional example: incorrectly repairing a complex brake system could pose a danger to other drivers and lead to an -otherwise avoidable- accident.
EDIT: some responses are focusing too closely on the example of brakes- perhaps it’s not the best way to illustrate my point. Say, instead, your engine broke or your self driving car’s software was malfunctioning. Should you still have the right to repair?
[+] [-] drewmol|7 years ago|reply
I wonder if some Tesla cars will end up like old set-top boxes for some paid Satellite TV service (DirecTV): utterly useless, illegal to circumvent due to Tesla IP violations required, but still yours to keep!
[+] [-] syshum|7 years ago|reply
Last time Automakers tried crap like Telsa is trying we got the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act
I would have hope we would get a revision that protects consumers but we are more likely to see a repeal of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act from both Democrats and Republicans than any support for lowering of Intellectual privilege protections. (Democrats are in the pocket of Hollywood who lives and dies on copyright laws)
[+] [-] jacquesm|7 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_the_line
[+] [-] hardwaresofton|7 years ago|reply
I had no idea they had this kind of stance -- is there any more nuance to it?
If there isn't I cannot conscience supporting Tesla in any way again -- there's no way I'm going to help a company that disregards/works against right-to-repair get a monopoly. Just the same reason I avoid buying iDevices.
[+] [-] delhanty|7 years ago|reply
See my comment from March 2017:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13929078
[+] [-] greglindahl|7 years ago|reply
But if you don't buy iDevices for that reason, you probably don't want a Tesla. Me, the one time I broke a screen, I used a 3rd party repair service, no problems.
[+] [-] ehsankia|7 years ago|reply
> Tesla continued that its customers are free to do what they want with their cars, including doing their own work to repair salvaged vehicles. They added that there are significant safety concerns when salvaged Teslas are repaired by unqualified mechanics, as these vehicles could pose a danger to both the mechanic and other drivers on the road.
Basically, already every single time a Tesla gets a car accident, the news loves to jump all over it. Now if you had people doing a half-ass job and making a defective repair, then the bad press would fall on Tesla.
[+] [-] e40|7 years ago|reply
https://www.patreon.com/RichRebuilds/overview
[+] [-] soared|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mahart|7 years ago|reply
But with his channel starting to take off he might have transitioned to a youtube career. At this point he's probably funding a lot of it via youtube income.
[+] [-] stcredzero|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] avelis|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] perl4ever|7 years ago|reply
I have been trying to fix various things in an old car from the 80s, and one of the more annoying aspects is trying to get a replacement part and finding there is a rare variant that I need but has the same part number as the common one. There are also a lot of parts that don't have diagrams or part numbers at all, because they weren't anticipated to be serviced normally.
[+] [-] RaceWon|7 years ago|reply
Go online to the forums and read about the nightmare of trying to do this yourself without VW diagnostics to get the new module to work with all the existing components. Even my local shop, who uses a VV tech on the side would not warranty a $3,000 fix. The dealership wanted over $4,500 to fix it. In the end I traded it in where I bought it (I worked there many moons ago and the owner leaned on a wholesaler to buy the car at a very reasonable price).
Just to clarify my point; this was a GTI- a loved car with all kinds of known fixes, fixers and available parts.
[+] [-] userbinator|7 years ago|reply
That's usually because the replacement is a drop-in compatible replacement; otherwise the part number would also have changed. Note that sometimes this also means a few other parts need to be replaced with new versions too, and if so that would be something mentioned in a service change bulletin (unfortunately rarely available, in contrast to service manuals.)
[+] [-] chaboud|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joeblau|7 years ago|reply
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA
[+] [-] ChuckMcM|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] djaychela|7 years ago|reply
I watched this yesterday and was pleasantly surprised at the angle of the video - I expected it to be a little more snarky about what he's done, but it presented a much better angle in terms of the right to repair that Tesla clearly fights against.
I'm often told that I'm an Elon Musk fanboy by friends and family - I love what SpaceX is doing, and I want Tesla to succeed (because I'm convinced that the sooner we get ICE-powered vehicles off the roads, the better), but I have spent much of the last 30 years fixing my own vehicles; I built my first motorbike from a written-off bike, and I've owned hundreds of cars. I built my own rally cars and competed in one of them at WRC level. I love fixing things, and as soon as I found out (via Rich Rebuilds, or CarGuru as it was then) about Tesla's policy, my opinion on them changed completely; I still want them to succeed, but I can't imagine ever owning one because of their stance (even though it probably wouldn't affect me, even if I ever did own one, which is unlikely to say the least).
There are a number of people on here taking what appears to me to be a straw man on the 'right to repair' angle - talking about 'repairing the software yourself'. I don't think this is what most people are talking about (and it's certainly not what Rich is talking about). It's about Tesla's restrictive policy over spare parts and repairing vehicles - not down to software level, but to the level that Rich is working at - like-for-like replacement of entire components. If a vehicle is on Tesla's list, then they will not sell you parts. And you can't get pattern parts in the way you can for most ICE vehicles - I'd imagine this is because the supply chain/pool is much smaller (Tesla is a small, niche manufacturer in reality) and they have clauses in place to stop the sale of these parts via other channels. And this is just wrong. There is no more danger in the straight like-for-like replacement of a motor unit or inverter than there is in any other competent repair.
My experience of dealer repair work has been limited, but when it has taken place, it has been poor. The mechanics in question have been of the 'follow a fixed set of instructions in the order given' type, not seeming to know their trade well and get straight to the point. I was quoted over £2000 in labour costs possible to diagnose a problem with a Ford Focus I owned (car was about 5 years old at the time) - 'because we have to do the diagnosis step by step, even if it's obvious it's not that'. Had I taken it there, it would have been the full price as it was one of the last things on the list (small end failure, which was common on that particular engine). Service in the UK is incredibly bad for the most part, and I've seen friends have terrible (and expensive) experiences at franchised, approved garages, with multi-thousand costs being generated to replace parts without any improvement (A friend's BMW X5 is springing to mind).
There is no significant risk to anyone if this kind of repair is carried out by competent personnel. And there are plenty of competent personnel about who would be able to do everything normally needed to repair a Tesla. The service documentation alone would allow that to happen (factory service manuals are generally a goldmine of information, but also written in such simple terms that nearly anyone could follow them), and the supply of the right parts to anyone who wants them - at a price without a prohibitive mark-up - should be a right. I'm saddened that Tesla is instead following a path trying to lock people in to their ecosystem of service - and even more so when they refuse to carry out mandated safety upgrades (such as the airbag mentioned in the piece).
Oh, for anyone who thinks that Rich is really safe.... just do a bit of research into 'safety wood'!
[+] [-] severine|7 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13183972
[+] [-] jaimex2|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beamatronic|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] backtoyoujim|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dazhbog|7 years ago|reply