This is a Canada wide problem. Rather, Id even say its a !valley problem. Canadian businesses keep making this weird assumption that theres some kind of market capture but it’s really only true for people who have to stay in the city or country for some reason. The addressable hirable market is the people who chose / have to stay and havent realized being employed by a US business is as easy as switching github organizations and slack teams.
These conversations, which appear every time a post appears on HN that talks about what a great place Toronto is (along with many other places in Canada), make me sad.
The wages in toronto have skyrocketed in the last couple years.
I'm looking for functional programming people if you're interested I can pay at least $120k/year and offer considerable equity to work on realtime systems. We're profitable and not funded. We have a couple seats to fill and I'm having a hard time because people in Scala circles are expecting $150k/year in Toronto. Many of my peers are making $150k no problem in the city as full time employees at your average tech company.
If you have elixir or scala experience, like FP, like realtime problems...
I see these posts a lot lately. I've worked in Chicago, Madison, Palo Alto, Mountain View, Des Moines, Hopewell New Jersey and Toronto.
A few points: A "senior" dev in Toronto would be someone with 8-10 years of experience. They can easily make 120+. I've hired many of them. Very few organizations in the GTA consider someone with 2-4 years a "senior", and those people will be lucky to make 90k. That make the COL in the GTA difficult.
If you truly are an amazing developer and you can't get a high salary in the GTA, get in touch.
Also, it would be interesting to see the ages of people who post. When I was in my 20's I'm sure I would have stayed in the Bay area if salaries were as good as they are now. But there really wasn't a _huge_ disparity in wages in the late 90's/Early 2000's between SV and elsewhere. I likely would have left the Bay area in my 30's though. And moving to Canada is one of the best decisions I feel I have ever made, especially considering the last 2 years.
EDIT: As a side note, I think outside of SV, ALL tech salaries (and all other industries)are too low and have been stagnant for the most part for a decade.
As a Canadian tech guy who travels to Silicon Valley and Seattle fairly frequently the impression that most US techies have is that Toronto is an awesome place to live, but it is not (yet) a magnet for top talent.
There are many amazing startups at any given moment in Toronto... but many of the folks involved have their sights set on FANG.
May be Canada can't attract top talent from USA but the best half of the team that worked with me in Brazil the last couple years are now in Canada, Ireland or Germany.
I am not familiar with Toronto personally but it would have one huge benefit over silicon valley...you don't have to live in silicon valley.
Edit: I'd prefer Siberia over sv, there is a reason talented people are getting the hell out of there and many major companies are building huge offices elsewhere.
Is this truly significant, or is it spin to sell a city? Not to be harsh, but I've read the accounts of Canadian expats on the comparatively low wages back home. Not SF low, but low even compared to other cities in the U.S.
Toronto has the best spin department in the world. I never stop seeing listicles with Toronto in the top 3, reading about how great it is a place to live and work, and how it's become a leader in innovation/tech/art/music/film/finance.
In Canada, salaries for tech seem to normally max out around 100k for developers (with exceptions for working for big US/multinational companies like Amazon, MSFT, etc.). Even 80k is pretty common for senior developers... In Canadian dollars. So around 80k USD is max a Canadian developer can expect to make other than a few unusual cases thrown in there which might go as high as 130k CAD so around 100k USD is a stellar Canadian development salary. If you compare this to how H1B workers are paid in the US, it's around those sorts of rates. I don't see it improving any time soon because the revenue that this work generates is not 10x multiples like you see in the US. Canada does not have the VC culture to support a tech culture that produces 100s of millions to billions in returns. If US companies come looking for remote workers they are looking to pay Canadian rates and save money that way.
I've been living and working in Toronto since 2003, and can attest that it truly is a fantastic city to live in.
Most of the senior developers I know in Toronto work as independent contractors for large enterprises because they can get paid significantly more than the base salaries mentioned here. Contractor rates rival Silicon Valley salaries.
The downside of independent contracting is that you forgo sick pay, holiday pay, and employee-sponsored perks like extended health care. However, Ontario has an excellent public health system that covers all residents so the need for additional health benefits is questionable.
Hi, I'm a contractor in Québec City work as a Business analyst. Can you tell me what is the hourly rate in Toronto ? And how do you find your clients ? It's my first year of working as a contractor. Thanks.
I'm from Toronto. Congrats to Toronto for its accomplishments.
It should be realized that their is a great standard of living available outside of major tech centers all across the country(s). The opportunity is different, but the jobs do exist. I'd argue that their is far more opportunity outside of tech centers than within. A tech center addresses the issue of distribution. More specifically, of concentration. Having a small cluster of a 100 or so tech businesses conveniently located pales in comparison to the 10's of thousands scatter across the corporate landscape.
Its myopic to measure 'success' with such a short term metric. My measure of success is different at a wholesale level from my 20's to my 40's. Toronto is fantastic for those less than 30. Tons to see and do, easy access to everything. Flash forward 20 years with a family and kids and it's not so attractive anymore. What were once benefits are now become detriments.
That being said, today is my last day at work in my less than 150K population town. I start a new job in 2 weeks, +$$, +benefits etc. Same scenario, smaller location. My compensation is is within striking distance of the wages in Toronto's tech center. But without the heavy cost of accommodations (all else being marginally cheaper) but more importantly, I'm 5 minutes from a entire world of green space and the crushing humanity that is found in all major centers, Toronto included.
As a Canadian-U.S. dual citizen who has spent my whole life in Canada, and most of it in Toronto, I honestly can't justify settling down in Ontario. The taxes are high and complicated, the services are subpar (and I don't use most of them), and Canada largely lacks the civil rights stability enjoyed in the U.S. under the Constitution (as currently amended and interpreted), particularly regarding freedom of speech and the bounds of unlawful search.
If I had more work in Waterloo, Paris, Guelph, etc.. I'd definitely move further west (I'm on the western tip of Missisauga now). But, 90% of my clients are in the city so I have to go in to Toronto 4-5 times a month. Not really worth moving further west yet.
Toronto’s tech talent is keen... but relatively green. Since few companies have had to deal with scaling networks, users and data to the same magnitude as is common with Valley companies, it’s almost impossible to find senior engineers worthy of the title. Plenty of options for junior and intermediate, though.
Yeah. I'm struggling to find really solid engineers in the city. I need really experienced people and I can't find anyone. Even the most sr consultants and contractors have a lot of gaps and don't understand the real edge cases that appear in systems.
I was lucky enough to learn from a team as we went through a google acquisition and watch and learn as the technology was scaled in both the context of a startup, and later inside Google. I was the whitebelt in the back of the room but that experience of working in that team was the most valuable experience I could have ever hoped for and I still regularly mail the people that I absorbed from to let them know how grateful I am to have taken me along on that journey. It's not a common experience but that completely humbled me and fixed my dunning-kruger arrogant ass.
Why live in Toronto for a 90k CAD salary when I can live close to Waterloo and get an 80k CAD salary? Perhaps I'm very lucky, but it goes a lot farther.
A lot of startups, but a significant amount seem very "gimmicky". (Probably less than SV, but it seems there are less companies that "started up" then grew to a significant size). That or you can work for the Megacorps, usually in the suburbs in their lifeless campuses.
Not to mention the salaries.
Also Canada tech companies in general seems to use less open source than USA or Europe.
I'm from Toronto but did 3 year stint in SF and then a 4 year stint in NYC. I moved back to Toronto last year to purchase and settle into my home base. Love it here.
These comments are hilarious and so typical of Toronto - there is a reason it's called the "screwface capital" of the world and I think it really rings true.
[+] [-] kirbypineapple|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thinkingkong|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adriand|7 years ago|reply
There is so much more to life than money.
[+] [-] ninjakeyboard|7 years ago|reply
If you have elixir or scala experience, like FP, like realtime problems...
[+] [-] ibopm|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wintorez|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kevintb|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] apercu|7 years ago|reply
A few points: A "senior" dev in Toronto would be someone with 8-10 years of experience. They can easily make 120+. I've hired many of them. Very few organizations in the GTA consider someone with 2-4 years a "senior", and those people will be lucky to make 90k. That make the COL in the GTA difficult.
If you truly are an amazing developer and you can't get a high salary in the GTA, get in touch.
Also, it would be interesting to see the ages of people who post. When I was in my 20's I'm sure I would have stayed in the Bay area if salaries were as good as they are now. But there really wasn't a _huge_ disparity in wages in the late 90's/Early 2000's between SV and elsewhere. I likely would have left the Bay area in my 30's though. And moving to Canada is one of the best decisions I feel I have ever made, especially considering the last 2 years.
EDIT: As a side note, I think outside of SV, ALL tech salaries (and all other industries)are too low and have been stagnant for the most part for a decade.
[+] [-] canada_dry|7 years ago|reply
There are many amazing startups at any given moment in Toronto... but many of the folks involved have their sights set on FANG.
[+] [-] digianarchist|7 years ago|reply
I just jumped jobs in Toronto and I found it very hard to find a job that pays $120k+ CAD, a developer with 6+ years of experience.
[+] [-] scardine|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paulie_a|7 years ago|reply
Edit: I'd prefer Siberia over sv, there is a reason talented people are getting the hell out of there and many major companies are building huge offices elsewhere.
[+] [-] Apocryphon|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] acchow|7 years ago|reply
The endless fluff pieces are a bit tiresome.
[+] [-] devoply|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] pards|7 years ago|reply
Most of the senior developers I know in Toronto work as independent contractors for large enterprises because they can get paid significantly more than the base salaries mentioned here. Contractor rates rival Silicon Valley salaries.
The downside of independent contracting is that you forgo sick pay, holiday pay, and employee-sponsored perks like extended health care. However, Ontario has an excellent public health system that covers all residents so the need for additional health benefits is questionable.
[+] [-] qcpydev|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bungie4|7 years ago|reply
It should be realized that their is a great standard of living available outside of major tech centers all across the country(s). The opportunity is different, but the jobs do exist. I'd argue that their is far more opportunity outside of tech centers than within. A tech center addresses the issue of distribution. More specifically, of concentration. Having a small cluster of a 100 or so tech businesses conveniently located pales in comparison to the 10's of thousands scatter across the corporate landscape.
Its myopic to measure 'success' with such a short term metric. My measure of success is different at a wholesale level from my 20's to my 40's. Toronto is fantastic for those less than 30. Tons to see and do, easy access to everything. Flash forward 20 years with a family and kids and it's not so attractive anymore. What were once benefits are now become detriments.
That being said, today is my last day at work in my less than 150K population town. I start a new job in 2 weeks, +$$, +benefits etc. Same scenario, smaller location. My compensation is is within striking distance of the wages in Toronto's tech center. But without the heavy cost of accommodations (all else being marginally cheaper) but more importantly, I'm 5 minutes from a entire world of green space and the crushing humanity that is found in all major centers, Toronto included.
Enjoy your success T.O. :D
[+] [-] microcolonel|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] apercu|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adamgravitis|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ninjakeyboard|7 years ago|reply
I was lucky enough to learn from a team as we went through a google acquisition and watch and learn as the technology was scaled in both the context of a startup, and later inside Google. I was the whitebelt in the back of the room but that experience of working in that team was the most valuable experience I could have ever hoped for and I still regularly mail the people that I absorbed from to let them know how grateful I am to have taken me along on that journey. It's not a common experience but that completely humbled me and fixed my dunning-kruger arrogant ass.
[+] [-] FLUX-YOU|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lucidone|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dear|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] raverbashing|7 years ago|reply
A lot of startups, but a significant amount seem very "gimmicky". (Probably less than SV, but it seems there are less companies that "started up" then grew to a significant size). That or you can work for the Megacorps, usually in the suburbs in their lifeless campuses.
Not to mention the salaries.
Also Canada tech companies in general seems to use less open source than USA or Europe.
[+] [-] cam3ham|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] helpme420|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cam3ham|7 years ago|reply
These comments are hilarious and so typical of Toronto - there is a reason it's called the "screwface capital" of the world and I think it really rings true.
[+] [-] se30b|7 years ago|reply