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Xkcd: Airfoil - So what's the right explanation?

46 points| mhw | 15 years ago |xkcd.com

40 comments

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[+] wazoox|15 years ago|reply
Well, actually the Bernouilli effect has its part, and so has the Coanda effect; however most of these explanation concentrate on an artificial setup, without taking in to account the actual angle that the wing makes with the air stream. When you learn to fly, you're first told that the angle of attack is the most important parameter to get lift. See the wikipedia page : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack

The Bernouilli and Coanda effects, in most flight configurations are of relatively minor importance, except on some particular aircrafts.

[+] Isamu|15 years ago|reply
Consider a steep angle of attack on takeoff. The lower side of the airfoil is more exposed to the onrush of air, and clearly this pushes the airfoil upwards. But the significance of the Coanda effect is that the air also wraps around the top of the airfoil, adhering to the surface, so that it too exits downward. If it didn't adhere to the surface (which happens in a stall) then you would lose all the downward force of that half of the airflow.
[+] 9ec4c12949a4f3|15 years ago|reply
I failed a test in highschool because I said bernouilli didn't make the planes fly. I backed it up with research. Encarta had this video that even stated "bernouilli is just a side-effect of flight, it isn't responsible"
[+] keitmo|15 years ago|reply
As a private pilot and Cessna 182 owner I can say, with absolute authority, you're all wrong.

Planes don't fly because of the Bernouilli Effect, or the Coanda Effect, or angle attack, or any of these other technical explanations.

Planes fly because of money. As soon as you stop throwing money at them, they stop flying.

Ask any plane owner and I think they'll agree.

[+] quux|15 years ago|reply
Student pilot here, this man speaks the truth.
[+] hristov|15 years ago|reply
I have seen many examples of this incorrect explanation in textbooks and posters. It boggles the mind how it has survived for so long. I actually shockingly saw the same incorrect explanation in one episode of NOVA (yes it has gone downhill).

The biggest problem with this diagram is that the air leaving the wing is horizontal, which is (a) wrong and (b) really screws up a kid's understanding of Newton's laws. If the diagram correctly showed the air being forced down by the wing, then a kid could figure out that the wing creates a downward force on the air and the air creates an equal and opposite upward force on the wing.

[+] borism|15 years ago|reply
It seems to me it's you who got things wrong. Explanation about wing forcing air down is very VERY wrong.
[+] vitovito|15 years ago|reply
The Coanda effect. Here's Jef Raskin's essay explaining it: http://web.archive.org/web/20070928072421/http://jef.raskinc...
[+] hristov|15 years ago|reply
This cannot be the Coanada effect because the airflow leaving the wing is completely horizontal. If the Coanada effect was present the air travelling over the top surface of the wing would leave the wing at a downwards angle and that would cause lift.
[+] jgrahamc|15 years ago|reply
Just read the Wikipedia page on Lift: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_(force)
[+] brc|15 years ago|reply
From that page, I now know that the mistake shown in the xkcd comic is called the "Equal Transit-Time Fallacy". There is no requirement for an airflow, once separated, to speed over the top of the wing to match the airflow underneath. In fact the top-layer airflow moves faster than the bottom layer, and arrives at the trailing edge sooner.
[+] quux|15 years ago|reply
The Fly With Me podcast had a great episode where they tried to get to the bottom of how a wing really generates lift.

http://joepodcaster.libsyn.com/fly-with-me-episode-25

The host is an airline pilot and he brought in a science podcaster to help him interview a professor of aeronautical engineering. Things went pretty smoothly until the professor started talking about in ring integrals and circular flows of air around the entire wing forcing the interviewers to give up and say "Look, it's really complicated." They put the whole unedited explanation at the end of the podcast for anyone crazy enough to listen to it. :)

The bottom line was that there are 3 things going on at the same time, Bernouilli, Newtonian action/reaction, and the Conada effect (I think, this is where he started talking about ring integrals and blowing everyone's minds). The problem is that even the experts can't say which of those is the principle reason for lift, and which ones are actually side effects from the "real reason." Fortunately the math doesn't care and works anyway, so they can still design and model airfoils very well.

[+] wbeaty|15 years ago|reply
Hilarious! This is the usual problem with rigorous physics/engineering: we don't understand it ourselves, and rather than being honest about it, we quote math at you. It's like doctors in 1700 falling back to Latin in order to hide their embarrassing ignorance from the public. In reality, "If you can't explain it to your grandmother, then you don't understand it yourself." (A. Einstein.)

Similarly, if you asked me some eletronics questions about a piece of complicated circuitry that I didn't understand, I could baffle you with BS. It's simple, I just pull out the equations from the SPICE component models. (As if owning the printout of the software can tell us anything about the behavior of the simulated circuit!!)

So, whenever you see an expert pull this crap, give them the above Einstein quote.

[+] simonjoe|15 years ago|reply
Well, if you're willing to accept that a wing–as described–produces lift in it's 'natural' upward direction (see other replies for some links as this step is a bit complicated), then there's only one way a plane can fly upside down. That reason is that it can also create lift opposite that direction.

Wings are not static. Wings either use flaps or some mechanism that causes them to bend that alters how much lift they produce at a given speed, angle of attack, etc.. The thing is that the reference frame you choose is important.

If you have 0 lift, you're in free fall…a phenomenon that a lot of planes can do. If you can push whatever that distortion in wing shape (flaps or bending) a bit farther, then you can dive faster than freefall, that is producing lift in the downward direction.

Now, just turn the plane upside down and do the same thing.

The freakier thing is that helicopters can theoretically fly upside-down. Same thing: if they can drop faster than free fall, they can fly upside down. The catch is that it's a VERY unstable equilibrium that is a huge stress on basically all of the parts of the motor, steering mechanism, structure, etc..

Or, it's because your parents' are Santa Claus. That's really equivalent.

[+] ozchrisb|15 years ago|reply
There are microscopic pixies that hold onto the wing and beat their little wings really fast.
[+] alan-crowe|15 years ago|reply
Isn't is basically the same deal as with a rocket, except that instead of the reaction mass being in a tank, the airplane takes the air in front of it and bats in downwards with the wing?
[+] metageek|15 years ago|reply
I think that's angle of attack.
[+] 83457|15 years ago|reply
More than anything doesn't it come down to the forcing of air downward results in lift upwards?
[+] dedward|15 years ago|reply
I believe so yes - all the other details are just about stability and performance.
[+] meatsock|15 years ago|reply
a plane can fly just fine upside-down for the same reason you can steer downwards while right-side up.
[+] aufreak3|15 years ago|reply
.. while correct, the question is "what is that reason?"