“California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record.
Hundreds of thousands of prisoners are also employed in jobs outside and inside the prisons, most commonly doing work to maintain the prisons. According to the Prison Policy Initiative, the average prison worker makes around 85 cents an hour. In 2017, inmates in Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Texas were not paid for most of their work. Proponents of these low-paying jobs have argued that inmates benefit from the work experience and that prisons, which are already often cash-strapped, cannot afford to pay more; opponents have argued that prisoners do need real wages to be able to buy basic necessities other than food in the prisons.”
Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not.
One thing we can do right now is start to use the correct language. Involuntary labor is not employment and we shouldn't call it such. There is even a market where you can buy their products.
> "opponents have argued that prisoners do need real wages to be able to buy basic necessities other than food in the prisons"
This seems like a problem even if prisoner wages are raised. If we incarcerate people, we should provide them with toothbrushes even if they can't/won't risk their lives fighting fires for a pittance.
However, as someone whose Dad is in prison, a lot of these guys really do want to get out there and do something useful and want this experience.
Many times the people complaining are privileged elites who are inferring what these populations want, but I would caution them to not make assumptions and do their research. It is not unambiguously bad to do this.
We can talk about the long-term reforms of prison, but there are short-term concerns too that might be helpful to them.
It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison.
This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence?
That said, I think the Prision system is fucked, has horrible incentives, private companies abuse bought prison labor, etc. etc.
But I actually felt like this program was pretty good - though they ought to let them become fire fighters!
While we're talking about slavery, it might be important to mention that the constitution specifically allows slavery in this context:
> "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
- 13th amendment
Amazes me that occupational licensing laws will prevent these inmates after being released from working as firefighter (because CA won't let former criminals work for the government), while somehow CA is fine having them work as slaves for the government while incarcerated.
Not to mention, who can compete with a jail offering labor for 1$ an hour? It's unfair to both the prisoners and anyone else in the manual labor business
Not to be pedantic, but this is slavery, allowed by our own constitution. Of course this argument is used to justify it although under the law, no justification is needed. What we need to do is to get rid of slavery altogether in America in 2018 and beyond. It's ridiculous that we call out other countries for human rights abuses while we have slavery all throughout our prisons, especially in the south (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Texas).
Prisoners are also unable to become smokejumpers or hot shots because they not only have a criminal record, but don't get the same training such as the EMT requirement, yet they're put in harm's way. Democracy Now covered this topic extensively.
American voters are chock full of paternalistic bullshit. They consistently vote for retribution, and the absolute cheapest way to house prisoners, and give them cheap public defenders. Voters consistently consider white collar crime as relatively benign with sentences below the sentencing guidelines; whereas non-violent drug crimes (let alone violent crimes) consistently at the highest range of sentencing guidelines.
It is a society that deeply believes in retribution for "lower class" crimes and slap on the wrist for "high class" crimes. I don't like it, but I absolutely see it.
I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison.
It’s inhumane garbage, and I’m amazed at how much people protest things like Netflix price increases when we have way worse problems that warrant our time and money.
I think they should pay rent and should be paid proper wages, to accelerate reintroduction to society. Don’t do any work? Get the worst cell, with rent written off. Work as a firefighter? Get $30/hour which you can use to get better living conditions and better food in prison.
>Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison.
But that's precisely the thing, isn't it? For-profit prisons, a multi-billion dollar business, are precisely incenctivised to bring and keep and many prisoners inside as possible. It's an economic incentive that works precisely against the social goals we as a society would like to achieve (for the great gain of a select few). Absolutely disgusting.
I mean, I think you might understand why people protest Netflix price increases because it affects them. When things affect people personally, they care. That's why prisoners themselves are striking here, to bring attention to their struggle as well as advocate for themselves.
I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners.
Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely.
But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?
A few prisons do pay min wage, like some Arizona prisons that allow outside contractors but generally inmates can't access the funds until they are released (to prevent extortion from other inmates) which means walking out with a lot of savings after a 5 yr bid. They're doing cold calls selling SAP Hana dbms and Oracle stuff https://youtu.be/y4kkYnobf_U and former inmates move up to management. https://www.televerde.com/who-we-are/
> I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”.
A visceral demonstration of decent rewards from legitimate work might reduce recidivism, which seems like a social good but is reducing the labor supply for prison industry and reducing the demand for (and leverage of) correctional officers and other prison employees. Lots of people have lots of money on the line, and the prison labor population is felons, who both can't vote and lack sympathy from those who can. So, the weight of the political pressure is virtually all on one side.
>they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release
Given the welfare system and what I've seen of crime stats, my impression is that crimes that could be described as "stealing to survive" are nearly non-existent. Even mentally ill homeless people rarely "steal to survive". The soup kitchen, subsidized apartment and welfare cheque are a lot easier.
And anyway, how many times do you need to shoplift bread from the market before you get sent to prison? Is such a thing even possible?
People commit prison-worthy crimes because they need a lot of money fast for drugs, or out of anger or for revenge or over gang disputes and personal disputes. "Stealing to survive" doesn't really exist in developed countries, so your argument makes no sense.
I'd be really interested in any crime stats to support the idea that a substantial number of prisoner are there for crimes that were necessary for survival. Do we even send people to prison for crimes like this?
I don’t disagree but just wanted to say something:
The whole point of money was to make it possible for 2+ good actors to do legal (and different) work/goods/services for each other while profiting.
Most people who end up in prison were “bad actors” by definition. The system was not benefiting from them. And thus I can’t help thinking that they don’t really deserve any of the system’s monetary medium of exchange.
For reference, here is the linked list of demands by the national organizers [1]:
> 1. Immediate improvements to the conditions of prisons and prison policies that recognize the humanity of imprisoned men and women.
> 2. An immediate end to prison slavery. All persons imprisoned in any place of detention under United States jurisdiction must be paid the prevailing wage in their state or territory for their labor.
> 3. The Prison Litigation Reform Act must be rescinded, allowing imprisoned humans a proper channel to address grievances and violations of their rights.
> 4. The Truth in Sentencing Act and the Sentencing Reform Act must be rescinded so that imprisoned humans have a possibility of rehabilitation and parole. No human shall be sentenced to Death by Incarceration or serve any sentence without the possibility of parole.
> 5. An immediate end to the racial overcharging, over-sentencing, and parole denials of Black and brown humans. Black humans shall no longer be denied parole because the victim of the crime was white, which is a particular problem in southern states.
> 6. An immediate end to racist gang enhancement laws targeting Black and brown humans.
> 7. No imprisoned human shall be denied access to rehabilitation programs at their place of detention because of their label as a violent offender.
> 8. State prisons must be funded specifically to offer more rehabilitation services.
> 9. Pell grants must be reinstated in all US states and territories.
> 10. The voting rights of all confined citizens serving prison sentences, pretrial detainees, and so-called “ex-felons” must be counted. Representation is demanded. All voices count!
As someone from Australia who doesn't understand the prison thing in the US. Is it essentially modern slavery? They choose non-white demographics, send them to prison for minor offences, and use the for cheap/free labour. Is this right?
My brother just went to jail and I’m just learning how crazy some things are there. They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up).
No one can properly function after repeated nights of less than 4 hours of sleep. I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits.
I went to the Design2Part show in Santa Clara a few months ago. The California Department of Corrections had a booth there, offering slave labor as a service.
It's technically not illegal under the 13th amendment.
> Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Not saying I agree with that part of the 13th amendment, I abhor it personally.
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
- 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution
Whenever anyone says slavery no longer exists in America, I point them to this. The foundational document of our system of government expressly allows slavery.
We house 25% of the world's prisoners in part because it's how we are still legally producing slaves.
Can any lawyer comment? A reading of the 13th amendment seems to justify involuntary servitude as a punishment for a crime, does this mean prison labor that isn't included in a sentence a violation of the 13th amendment? Just reading of this seems to allow one to make an legal argument along those lines, so I imagine there must have been some case that lead to a clarification of the 13th in the intervening century or so.
Paying prisoners absurdly low wages teaches them that honest labor doesn't pay. Isn't this exactly the opposite of what we want them to learn?
I readily that my emotional side wants to prison to be as punitive as possible. But my rational side just wants to live in a society with less crime. And teaching prisoners that honest labor pays is an important lesson in getting them to behave themselves when they get out.
On the one hand, you don't really want there to be much of an economy in prison. The more money inmates make the more they have to bribe corrections workers and create an unsafe environment.
On the other hand, we can't keep wages so low in these institutions that basic hygiene items require a hours on hours of work. How do you expect someone to go from incarcerated to living in the world with no money? I swear we just love to create problems in this country and then wonder out loud how those problems came to be.
Find a way to sell a service the prisoners can learn to do through apprenticing with experienced prisoners (b2b sales, data analysis, ect), find a way to get companies to contract your inmates, find a way to proof it from bad inmates making politicians look embarassed by limiting the scope of the service to something they can't use for crime, find a way to get prisoners to agree by paying them the state min wage,find a way to get prison workers and public to agree by making it as non disruptive to set up as possible, hire former inmates who worked for you to manage the on site operations, counter 'this is slavery' criticism by hiring prisoners themselves to be your company PR. Prisoners can pay off their conviction fines and at the same time save money for release to land soft. Pitch this to YC and get funding to conduct some kind of data gathering to guage what politicians and public would be comfortable with (types of offenses permitted to work, industries that are least adversarial to this model so willing to work with your prisoners, ect).
I'm very impressed that we don't actually bill prisoners for rent, food, etc and if they can't pay, loan them money through a high interest loan that they can never pay off. Maybe they could do this and reduce interest on the loan if you work in prison. Whatever story works to keep people blind to the fact that the state abuses the shit out of its people.
A common argument against offering minimum wage work or advanced technical training to prisoners is that this reduces the disincentive of prison time. From a purely logical standpoint I can see how that makes some amount of sense, but in reality I don't think anybody committing petty or significant crimes would be swayed one way or the other over the opportunity for $7/hour in prison. The lack of freedom - to see family, friends, live an actual life - that's the disincentive. Not to mention the employment and housing prospects of a convicted felon, which are terrible.
As much as I wish for incremental reform of prison conditions for prisoners, it's important never to forget the fundamentally unethical premise of prisons and state punishment, which derives from religious fantasies about good and evil.
Human beings behave according to the combination of their neurology and their conditions. We should do what we can to prevent dangerous behavior and do our best to treat the people who do dangerous things.
Deciding that some people, mostly people who come from historically oppressed groups and from poverty, are bad and deserve to suffer has a toxic effect on the core of our society.
I worked with a guy who was on a state fire crew (not California). The pay was super low, but he didn't care. Being outdoors in the smoke was way better than being in a cell and the time off for being good was worth quite a bit to him. He was totally happy with the arrangement and it sounded like many others were too. The state had lots of similar programs, roofing government buildings, etc.
I thought I'd share how he felt because it wasn't all all what I expected to hear. I expected he'd rip on it and all I heard was good.
I think the inhabitants of the white collar prisons should be put to work fighting the fires and get paid nothing in return. Most of them are serving hard time for fraud anyway.
Has everyone forgotten that these people are all convicted of a crime and serving their sentences?
For all the issues that exist (gouging for common services, violence, the judicial process, etc.) complaining about the terms of their punishment is absurd.
To be sure there should be rehabilitation, and a component of that is incentives. There should be no expectation, though, that those incentives should correlate to what they may receive in the free market.
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One thing they are demanding is to get rid of the ability to sentence someone to life without parole. For some reason, I don't think the public is going to get behind that one.
[+] [-] TaylorAlexander|7 years ago|reply
“California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record.
Hundreds of thousands of prisoners are also employed in jobs outside and inside the prisons, most commonly doing work to maintain the prisons. According to the Prison Policy Initiative, the average prison worker makes around 85 cents an hour. In 2017, inmates in Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Texas were not paid for most of their work. Proponents of these low-paying jobs have argued that inmates benefit from the work experience and that prisons, which are already often cash-strapped, cannot afford to pay more; opponents have argued that prisoners do need real wages to be able to buy basic necessities other than food in the prisons.”
Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not.
[+] [-] AndyMcConachie|7 years ago|reply
One thing we can do right now is start to use the correct language. Involuntary labor is not employment and we shouldn't call it such. There is even a market where you can buy their products.
https://unicor.gov/index.aspx
You can even outsource work to prison slaves. https://vimeo.com/125010485
There are even private companies that have prison slaves work for them and keep the profits. http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/
Just like slavery did in the American south pre-1865, prison slave labor depresses wages in any industry it operates in.
[+] [-] nosseo|7 years ago|reply
This seems like a problem even if prisoner wages are raised. If we incarcerate people, we should provide them with toothbrushes even if they can't/won't risk their lives fighting fires for a pittance.
[+] [-] nickpinkston|7 years ago|reply
Many times the people complaining are privileged elites who are inferring what these populations want, but I would caution them to not make assumptions and do their research. It is not unambiguously bad to do this.
We can talk about the long-term reforms of prison, but there are short-term concerns too that might be helpful to them.
[+] [-] ada1981|7 years ago|reply
This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence?
That said, I think the Prision system is fucked, has horrible incentives, private companies abuse bought prison labor, etc. etc.
But I actually felt like this program was pretty good - though they ought to let them become fire fighters!
[+] [-] aggronn|7 years ago|reply
> "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." - 13th amendment
[+] [-] em3rgent0rdr|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] celim307|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mnm1|7 years ago|reply
Not to be pedantic, but this is slavery, allowed by our own constitution. Of course this argument is used to justify it although under the law, no justification is needed. What we need to do is to get rid of slavery altogether in America in 2018 and beyond. It's ridiculous that we call out other countries for human rights abuses while we have slavery all throughout our prisons, especially in the south (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Texas).
[+] [-] modells|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cmurf|7 years ago|reply
It is a society that deeply believes in retribution for "lower class" crimes and slap on the wrist for "high class" crimes. I don't like it, but I absolutely see it.
[+] [-] makecheck|7 years ago|reply
It’s inhumane garbage, and I’m amazed at how much people protest things like Netflix price increases when we have way worse problems that warrant our time and money.
[+] [-] fipple|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrepd|7 years ago|reply
But that's precisely the thing, isn't it? For-profit prisons, a multi-billion dollar business, are precisely incenctivised to bring and keep and many prisoners inside as possible. It's an economic incentive that works precisely against the social goals we as a society would like to achieve (for the great gain of a select few). Absolutely disgusting.
[+] [-] noobermin|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zaroth|7 years ago|reply
Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely.
But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?
[+] [-] hackermailman|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dragonwriter|7 years ago|reply
A visceral demonstration of decent rewards from legitimate work might reduce recidivism, which seems like a social good but is reducing the labor supply for prison industry and reducing the demand for (and leverage of) correctional officers and other prison employees. Lots of people have lots of money on the line, and the prison labor population is felons, who both can't vote and lack sympathy from those who can. So, the weight of the political pressure is virtually all on one side.
[+] [-] jlawson|7 years ago|reply
Given the welfare system and what I've seen of crime stats, my impression is that crimes that could be described as "stealing to survive" are nearly non-existent. Even mentally ill homeless people rarely "steal to survive". The soup kitchen, subsidized apartment and welfare cheque are a lot easier.
And anyway, how many times do you need to shoplift bread from the market before you get sent to prison? Is such a thing even possible?
People commit prison-worthy crimes because they need a lot of money fast for drugs, or out of anger or for revenge or over gang disputes and personal disputes. "Stealing to survive" doesn't really exist in developed countries, so your argument makes no sense.
I'd be really interested in any crime stats to support the idea that a substantial number of prisoner are there for crimes that were necessary for survival. Do we even send people to prison for crimes like this?
[+] [-] ryandrake|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emodendroket|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nemo44x|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drb91|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmarreck|7 years ago|reply
The whole point of money was to make it possible for 2+ good actors to do legal (and different) work/goods/services for each other while profiting.
Most people who end up in prison were “bad actors” by definition. The system was not benefiting from them. And thus I can’t help thinking that they don’t really deserve any of the system’s monetary medium of exchange.
[+] [-] andrewla|7 years ago|reply
> 1. Immediate improvements to the conditions of prisons and prison policies that recognize the humanity of imprisoned men and women.
> 2. An immediate end to prison slavery. All persons imprisoned in any place of detention under United States jurisdiction must be paid the prevailing wage in their state or territory for their labor.
> 3. The Prison Litigation Reform Act must be rescinded, allowing imprisoned humans a proper channel to address grievances and violations of their rights.
> 4. The Truth in Sentencing Act and the Sentencing Reform Act must be rescinded so that imprisoned humans have a possibility of rehabilitation and parole. No human shall be sentenced to Death by Incarceration or serve any sentence without the possibility of parole.
> 5. An immediate end to the racial overcharging, over-sentencing, and parole denials of Black and brown humans. Black humans shall no longer be denied parole because the victim of the crime was white, which is a particular problem in southern states.
> 6. An immediate end to racist gang enhancement laws targeting Black and brown humans.
> 7. No imprisoned human shall be denied access to rehabilitation programs at their place of detention because of their label as a violent offender.
> 8. State prisons must be funded specifically to offer more rehabilitation services.
> 9. Pell grants must be reinstated in all US states and territories.
> 10. The voting rights of all confined citizens serving prison sentences, pretrial detainees, and so-called “ex-felons” must be counted. Representation is demanded. All voices count!
[1] https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5cr546jlscgkhj/Prison%20Strike.pd...
[+] [-] fraudsyndrome|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway0x7647|7 years ago|reply
No one can properly function after repeated nights of less than 4 hours of sleep. I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits.
[+] [-] reaperducer|7 years ago|reply
It's one of several measures to keep the inmates docile. See also: feeding them low-quality food, and only enough for survival.
A hungry, sleep-deprived prisoner isn't going to revolt, and after release may think twice about going back.
[+] [-] omegaworks|7 years ago|reply
Bingo. Private prisons have no incentive to reduce recidivism.
[+] [-] Animats|7 years ago|reply
I went to the Design2Part show in Santa Clara a few months ago. The California Department of Corrections had a booth there, offering slave labor as a service.
[+] [-] prolikewh0a|7 years ago|reply
> Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Not saying I agree with that part of the 13th amendment, I abhor it personally.
[+] [-] DubiousPusher|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kevmo|7 years ago|reply
- 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution
Whenever anyone says slavery no longer exists in America, I point them to this. The foundational document of our system of government expressly allows slavery.
We house 25% of the world's prisoners in part because it's how we are still legally producing slaves.
[+] [-] noobermin|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tryitnow|7 years ago|reply
I readily that my emotional side wants to prison to be as punitive as possible. But my rational side just wants to live in a society with less crime. And teaching prisoners that honest labor pays is an important lesson in getting them to behave themselves when they get out.
[+] [-] Barrin92|7 years ago|reply
I don't think anybody who is involved in what can only be described as a prison industry at this point is interested in teaching them anything.
[+] [-] chuckgreenman|7 years ago|reply
On the other hand, we can't keep wages so low in these institutions that basic hygiene items require a hours on hours of work. How do you expect someone to go from incarcerated to living in the world with no money? I swear we just love to create problems in this country and then wonder out loud how those problems came to be.
[+] [-] jancsika|7 years ago|reply
This probably ought to include something like the following: "...including an immediate ban on solitary confinement as a disciplinary measure."
Otherwise we will have a multi-decade "conversation" about whether "time in the hole" actually constitutes torture.
Remember, this is the country that brought you "enhanced interrogation techniques" and marijuana as a schedule I controlled substance.
[+] [-] hackermailman|7 years ago|reply
Find a way to sell a service the prisoners can learn to do through apprenticing with experienced prisoners (b2b sales, data analysis, ect), find a way to get companies to contract your inmates, find a way to proof it from bad inmates making politicians look embarassed by limiting the scope of the service to something they can't use for crime, find a way to get prisoners to agree by paying them the state min wage,find a way to get prison workers and public to agree by making it as non disruptive to set up as possible, hire former inmates who worked for you to manage the on site operations, counter 'this is slavery' criticism by hiring prisoners themselves to be your company PR. Prisoners can pay off their conviction fines and at the same time save money for release to land soft. Pitch this to YC and get funding to conduct some kind of data gathering to guage what politicians and public would be comfortable with (types of offenses permitted to work, industries that are least adversarial to this model so willing to work with your prisoners, ect).
[+] [-] BucketSort|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kevmo|7 years ago|reply
https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/news/economy/prison-fees-in...
[+] [-] jakeinspace|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ForrestN|7 years ago|reply
Human beings behave according to the combination of their neurology and their conditions. We should do what we can to prevent dangerous behavior and do our best to treat the people who do dangerous things.
Deciding that some people, mostly people who come from historically oppressed groups and from poverty, are bad and deserve to suffer has a toxic effect on the core of our society.
[+] [-] twothamendment|7 years ago|reply
I thought I'd share how he felt because it wasn't all all what I expected to hear. I expected he'd rip on it and all I heard was good.
[+] [-] a-fried-egg|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Friedduck|7 years ago|reply
For all the issues that exist (gouging for common services, violence, the judicial process, etc.) complaining about the terms of their punishment is absurd.
To be sure there should be rehabilitation, and a component of that is incentives. There should be no expectation, though, that those incentives should correlate to what they may receive in the free market.
[+] [-] shevek_|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] conner_bw|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] secult|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oh_sigh|7 years ago|reply