> "As India sets the new rules of the game, it is seeking inspiration from China. Although India does not want to go as far as China, which has cut off its internet from the global one, officials admire Beijing’s tight control over citizens’ data and how it has nurtured homegrown internet giants like Alibaba and Baidu by limiting foreign competition. At the same time, regulators do not want to push out the American internet services that hundreds of millions of Indians depend on."
This is the main point. The main reason the government wants data to be stored locally and is also looking at controlling companies is for surveillance. But unlike China, not all platforms have Indian created equivalents. Fortunately for the citizens of India, regardless of the state of surveillance in the U.S., the U.S. companies do fight a lot more against these controlling measures than any Indian born company ever would. Indian companies like Reliance Jio, which considers "data as the new oil" (the parent company, Reliance, was built on crude oil), and many others have had a thirst for more data for sometime now. [Incidentally, the logo of "Jio" is a mirror image of "Oil" in a certain font]
> “There is a strong feeling in many quarters that the reason that India has not been able to develop a Tencent or Baidu or Alibaba is because we have not been nuanced in our policies.”
This sounds kind of naïve. It's not because of data related policies that these haven't happened.
> "Officials were furious after the Cambridge Analytica scandal this year revealed that Facebook had shared private information on 87 million users, including 560,000 Indians, with a political consulting firm that had sought to influence Indian elections."
This is ironical, because the governments (both central and state governments) didn't even acknowledge issues or took responsibility or made a statement that data leaks from their own sites would be dealt with seriously. Their game is like this — "if we leak data, then it's not an issue, but if someone else is, then we will be outraged". It's just pseudo-nationalistic sentiment that the current central government has been fostering. A search for "Aadhaar data leaks" will show many such instances and the lack of a decent response from the governments.
> "They also warned that India has fewer legal protections than the United States against government searches and data requests, so private data stored in the country could more easily end up in the hands of the police."
This is very true. The central government has shown that it has very little interest in getting a good privacy law in place. The one recently released publicly has so many issues that concerned citizens have started https://saveourprivacy.in/ . Please share this site with every Indian citizen you know.
As an Indian citizen, my only hope is that foreign tech companies resist the crippling moves by the executive. The courts move very slowly, but they're the (mostly) dependable arm here.
> The main reason the government wants data to be stored locally and is also looking at controlling companies is for surveillance. But unlike China, not all platforms have Indian created equivalents. Fortunately for the citizens of India, regardless of the state of surveillance in the U.S., the U.S. companies do fight a lot more against these controlling measures than any Indian born company ever would.
There is a national security component that you are missing. The day we do not needs borders for people, we will not need a border for data. But we are not there yet.
> “There is a strong feeling in many quarters that the reason that India has not been able to develop a Tencent or Baidu or Alibaba is because we have not been nuanced in our policies.”
This is very reasonable. Your country does NOT need a new Google or Tencent. Because they already exist. The only way India can develop its own companies is by creating an artificial scarcity thru regulation. I see quite often asked Why does Europe not have tech giants? The easy answer is that they already exist and there is no way that small start-ups can fight them.
This does not mean that to create that needs is good for the citizens. Maybe it is good that Europe depends on Google, Apple, etc than to try to create new local ones, as non-tech businesses can benefit early from their technology. But if the goal is to create your own tech giants, it is not possible when you are competing against well established cash-rich monopolistic companies.
> "They also warned that India has fewer legal protections than the United States against government searches and data requests, so private data stored in the country could more easily end up in the hands of the police." The central government has shown that it has very little interest in getting a good privacy law in place.
From my perspective, you may prefer that your data is in hands of another country, not even because they are more ethical but because they are just less interested in what you are doing. Local police in NewYork does not care what you are doing in New Delhi. So, the effect is the same. Your data may be safer in hands of people that have no political nor policial power over you.
> As an Indian citizen, my only hope is that foreign tech companies resist the crippling moves by the executive...
As an India citizen, why are you not hoping that Indian developers and government grow competent enough to built software with quality that is at par with foreign software?
As an Indian citizen, I find this deeply troubling. We have a lot of software developers here, but what is the dynamics by which government software turn out to be crappy? (Btw, I think irctc raily ticket booking is a work of art) I think instead of pushing against the laws, we should be pushing for more quality in software used by the government. Make the development of such software to be open, and reviewable..
The US has good protections against government searches and data requests for US citizens, but probably zero for the rest of us. So, as an Indian, I don't really see how having my data stored in India is much worse than having it stored in the US.
I hadn't realized until recently how India is so much like China regarding surveillance and social control. I guess that it reflects how biased against China I've been.
When I've read about the Chinese government's concerns over social unrest, I've empathized with the dissidents. I mean, Tibet and Xinjiang are occupied nations! But I get that China is an extremely diverse country, overall, with lots of ethnic tension.
And conversely, when I've read about the Indian government's concerns over social unrest, I've empathized with the victims of the dissidents. Muslims persecuted by Hindus. Women persecuted by misogynists.
So damn, it's a hard problem. And worse, with increased migration driven by social chaos and war (and eventually, by global climate change), it's becoming an issue in many places. Including the US, where I happen to live.
This sums up Foreign-Tech companies argument and the Indian govt. response .
> Mukesh Aghi, the chief executive of the U.S.-India Strategic Partnership Forum, a policy group whose board includes top executives at Cisco, Adobe, and Mastercard, said that India risked hurting its own economy by imposing stringent rules on foreign tech companies. He said
> “It requires deep pockets. It requires world-class technologies. It requires a global supply chain,” Mr. Aghi said. “These companies are creating jobs.”
> Ajay Sawhney, the information technology secretary, who is helping to draft the regulations, said the government was keeping an open mind as it developed the final rules.
> “Our framework will be fair to all stakeholders,” he said. “We deeply appreciate the value that the tech companies and their platforms bring to our country.”
> "This sounds kind of naïve. It's not because of data related policies that these haven't happened."
Maybe they are not talking about data related policies but more about policies that could foster local development. Agree with your other points.
As an Indian I'm not sure I endorse all this as 'anti-colonialism'. This is a bunch of government bureaucrats who want e.g. data to be stored in the country so they can access personal info more easily...
Colonialism is a loaded word, but if you look at India trying to force cell phone companies to manufacture in India I think there is a clear desire to drive economic development through policy. I don't really blame them either, China offers a pretty compelling example of what state intervention in the market can do.
I want to note that in Canada a lot of government data storage is required by law to be on Canadian soil. From what I understand this is to help mitigate a foreign actor from accessing your data (eg: a search warrant in the US could pull up photos of me from my Google Drive account).
I can’t speak for what it’s like in India though, and I can understand how having data locally can be an avenue for corruption like you say.
it is about economy. India missed the opportunity to make money compare to China where there are lots of home grown company by forcing outside not to penetrate their market
> As an Indian I'm not sure I endorse all this as 'anti-colonialism'. This is a bunch of government bureaucrats who want e.g. data to be stored in the country so they can access personal info more easily...
As someone who's also Indian, and also remembers Indian pre-colonial and colonial history, I'm entirely on board with taking active measures to ensure we don't repeat the past.
Yes, all governments have an incentive to spy on their citizens - just look at Australia or the US or the UK. But India has very legitimate reasons to oppose foreign control of its technological infrastructure. And unlike those other countries, India has also established a right to privacy.
I probably have a minority opinion here, but I think countries should as much as possible have their own tech stacks. There are many ways to do this: home grown web platforms, customized versions of Chromebooks, open source software, etc.
To me one of the pleasures of the world is different cultures, ethnicities, food, local politics, etc. I don’t want a “homogenized world” in which everything seems the same in different countries.
While I can relate to the desire to visit exotic parts of the world (or digital space), the important consideration is well being of the people who live there.
Of course homogeneity is not what we want, and not just because it's boring for visitors. But, I don't think that encouraging people in a different country/region/community (especially a smaller one) to roll their own tools is helpful either. There is so much work involved in creating and maintaining all this stuff - and the resources required are often in short supply. It seems much better if we can all leverage off each other to make better things, to be shared with the wider community.
I think the issue is more about preserving the right amount of local control over tech used locally, rather than building that tech locally from local tools.
Completely agree with this. For some reason there's some knee-jerk reaction to digital independence. I feel like having centralized services like Google and Facebook has managed to to remove a lot of the cultural experience when looking up things in various European countries.
In the beginning it quotes a railway official saying enough of foreign influence. The Indian railways on the other hand is working closely with Google to deliver free wifi in nearly 400 stations. Google has even formed a susidiary to do this - Google Station.
There may be data protection and privacy requirements which come in - but that is not about colonization. A lot of the awareness on privacy is coming as more and more Indians come in touch with the internet and start wrestling with these issues. More importantly, it is the widespread use of Aadhar, a biometric unique identification system by the government which has also triggered the supreme court to look at data privacy issues. Surely a journalist worth their salt would mention this.
Rather than any push back against tech colonization, i would argue that what we are seeing is a greater awareness on the part of government and citizens about the need for data privacy, as well as concern around misuse of social media. And it will extend to local and global players, obviously.
It's true that India wants to build its own surveillance state. Every rational great power wannabe will want to do so, just as every great power wannabe has wanted a nuclear arsenal. Seems like table stakes in that rat race. And who can blame anyone for doing so - it would be stupid to let data with security implications to go through American companies with a potential backdoor after Snowden and Wikileaks, just as it would be stupid to be caught without nuclear weapons after Iraq and North Korea.
I am not as worried about the ease with which Indian citizen's privacy will be violated if these laws pass - systems such as Aadhar are far greater threats to our privacy and those come with the full force of the law and have support from every government in power, whether NDA or UPA or some third alliance. Plus, I would want foreign companies collecting data about Indian citizens to be accountable to the Indian public. The Bhopal tragedy is a good example of what happens when a foreign company isn't accountable to Indians in any manner whatsoever.
Of course, one might doubt whether Indian efforts to secure our data will withstand NSA or Chinese efforts to crack them, but we won't know until we try!
China has a tech industry that is on par with Silicon Valley. India doesn't.
They are on the right track, America is going off the deep end and can no longer be relied upon as a trustworthy and sane ally. The EU is desperately trying to get away from that sinking ship but you can't undo 70 years of geopolitical and economic reality easily.
> .. trying to establish strong data protections ... as Europe did, while giving the government the right to obtain private information as it sees fit...
Data protections like the EU did may sound good. But it took the EU years to develop the framework, another 4 years before into effect, and even more time before it's fully adopted.
India doesn't exactly have a record for graceful administration (thinking of the currency debacle). And if you do this with less elegance than what the EU did.. you risk creating a huge (expensive) mess..
Tech platforms bring a lot of value. By enabling commerce and many local enterprises. Trying to move too fast could have very bad consequences. Even the slow stuff the EU did, was somewhat of a mess..
And then let's not even get started on the mess access to private information without a warrant would bring..
I hope they move slow make something with less negative side effects than what the EU did. Then this could be good.
Misleading article, there are local startups everywhere. But no one in India is going to get rid of google, twitter , instagram , whatsapp or facebook, not simply because there are no alternatives but also because, we are living in a winners take all economy. Amazon is a fast growing ecommerce giant in India, infact India is their fastest growing market so much so that Amazon gives its Amazon prime service for as low as $20 per yr.
The Indian government has a long and well documented track record of cluelessly attempting to censor and regulate the global internet, to serve domestic special interests and religious fundamentalists and right wingers.
This whole thing is such a phenomenally stupid idea in nearly every way. Foreign companies have had longer to develop and are superior in nearly every single way. Why supress them? The data protection laws are a good idea, though I suspect corruption and surveillance, which the Indian gov wants to keep, will largely nullify any and all benefits of such laws.
Because they don't answer to the country's government.
US-based internet companies answer to the US government only. This is an implication of nearly every site's terms of service. For example, Y Combinator's says you can't post illegal stuff and even mentions the US directly. The implication is "don't get us in trouble here in the US -- we couldn't care less what's legal or illegal in your country." Not very respectful of their sovereignty.
Obviously, indian authorities hold nearly zero power over these companies. They can't enforce indian laws on US citizens. It's not like they can show up at their doorstep and arrest people for failing to comply with a court order or something. Their only law enforcement weapon is to block the site, preventing them from reaching indians at all. That's why having local alternatives is extremely valuable.
"Colonization" is a heavily loaded word and it's frankly, immature from NYT to use it. Data Protection Regulations (in the same vein as GDPR) are a good thing for consumers.
As someone who is concerned about user and data privacy, I like these developments. What's anti-colonial about it other than just a catchy headline?
So when India wants to limit the ability of foreign companies to undercut local prices, it's a good thing. When America wants to do the same we're suddenly the bad guys...
There is a difference between US and India,
US attracts many people with its free culture, so many people in US were from various places.
In case of India, their population is of their own.
> “As a country, we have to all grow up and say that, you know, enough of this,” Vinit Goenka, a railways official who works on technology policy for India’s governing Bharatiya Janata Party, said at a conference last week.
So did India had already fixed it's railroads and now is taking on the internet?
I also see Indian government recently requested British government for soft reparations.
i.e., to identify the fact that British have completely exploited India in terms of their finance.
They also said, when British ruled India, they killed nearly millions of people on purpose and their exploitation of Indian work-force.
This is also raising an awareness among some of Indian population.
They were in plan of rewriting their history books, about their world's first University, astrology mathematics, Vedic sciences, medical sciences ...
The list goes on.
Obviously India contributing more than 27% of GDP for more than thousand years and there achievements in mathematics,
Number system, trigonometry,calculus, algebra and Invention of surgery...
There open-trade system, and being a free culture, they used to have places for debate, and everybody can worship which ever God they want, if one doesn't like any God, you can create one and pray.
There used to be a lot of competition for admissions to Indian universities from all over the world.
And ofcourse yoga, mediation, home for Hinduism, Buddhism,...
> They were in plan of rewriting their history books, about their world's first University, astrology mathematics, Vedic sciences, medical sciences ... The list goes on.
[+] [-] wtmt|7 years ago|reply
This is the main point. The main reason the government wants data to be stored locally and is also looking at controlling companies is for surveillance. But unlike China, not all platforms have Indian created equivalents. Fortunately for the citizens of India, regardless of the state of surveillance in the U.S., the U.S. companies do fight a lot more against these controlling measures than any Indian born company ever would. Indian companies like Reliance Jio, which considers "data as the new oil" (the parent company, Reliance, was built on crude oil), and many others have had a thirst for more data for sometime now. [Incidentally, the logo of "Jio" is a mirror image of "Oil" in a certain font]
> “There is a strong feeling in many quarters that the reason that India has not been able to develop a Tencent or Baidu or Alibaba is because we have not been nuanced in our policies.”
This sounds kind of naïve. It's not because of data related policies that these haven't happened.
> "Officials were furious after the Cambridge Analytica scandal this year revealed that Facebook had shared private information on 87 million users, including 560,000 Indians, with a political consulting firm that had sought to influence Indian elections."
This is ironical, because the governments (both central and state governments) didn't even acknowledge issues or took responsibility or made a statement that data leaks from their own sites would be dealt with seriously. Their game is like this — "if we leak data, then it's not an issue, but if someone else is, then we will be outraged". It's just pseudo-nationalistic sentiment that the current central government has been fostering. A search for "Aadhaar data leaks" will show many such instances and the lack of a decent response from the governments.
> "They also warned that India has fewer legal protections than the United States against government searches and data requests, so private data stored in the country could more easily end up in the hands of the police."
This is very true. The central government has shown that it has very little interest in getting a good privacy law in place. The one recently released publicly has so many issues that concerned citizens have started https://saveourprivacy.in/ . Please share this site with every Indian citizen you know.
As an Indian citizen, my only hope is that foreign tech companies resist the crippling moves by the executive. The courts move very slowly, but they're the (mostly) dependable arm here.
[+] [-] kartan|7 years ago|reply
There is a national security component that you are missing. The day we do not needs borders for people, we will not need a border for data. But we are not there yet.
> “There is a strong feeling in many quarters that the reason that India has not been able to develop a Tencent or Baidu or Alibaba is because we have not been nuanced in our policies.”
This is very reasonable. Your country does NOT need a new Google or Tencent. Because they already exist. The only way India can develop its own companies is by creating an artificial scarcity thru regulation. I see quite often asked Why does Europe not have tech giants? The easy answer is that they already exist and there is no way that small start-ups can fight them.
This does not mean that to create that needs is good for the citizens. Maybe it is good that Europe depends on Google, Apple, etc than to try to create new local ones, as non-tech businesses can benefit early from their technology. But if the goal is to create your own tech giants, it is not possible when you are competing against well established cash-rich monopolistic companies.
> "They also warned that India has fewer legal protections than the United States against government searches and data requests, so private data stored in the country could more easily end up in the hands of the police." The central government has shown that it has very little interest in getting a good privacy law in place.
From my perspective, you may prefer that your data is in hands of another country, not even because they are more ethical but because they are just less interested in what you are doing. Local police in NewYork does not care what you are doing in New Delhi. So, the effect is the same. Your data may be safer in hands of people that have no political nor policial power over you.
[+] [-] sixstringbudha|7 years ago|reply
As an India citizen, why are you not hoping that Indian developers and government grow competent enough to built software with quality that is at par with foreign software?
As an Indian citizen, I find this deeply troubling. We have a lot of software developers here, but what is the dynamics by which government software turn out to be crappy? (Btw, I think irctc raily ticket booking is a work of art) I think instead of pushing against the laws, we should be pushing for more quality in software used by the government. Make the development of such software to be open, and reviewable..
[+] [-] kartickv|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mirimir|7 years ago|reply
When I've read about the Chinese government's concerns over social unrest, I've empathized with the dissidents. I mean, Tibet and Xinjiang are occupied nations! But I get that China is an extremely diverse country, overall, with lots of ethnic tension.
And conversely, when I've read about the Indian government's concerns over social unrest, I've empathized with the victims of the dissidents. Muslims persecuted by Hindus. Women persecuted by misogynists.
So damn, it's a hard problem. And worse, with increased migration driven by social chaos and war (and eventually, by global climate change), it's becoming an issue in many places. Including the US, where I happen to live.
[+] [-] LrnByTeach|7 years ago|reply
> Mukesh Aghi, the chief executive of the U.S.-India Strategic Partnership Forum, a policy group whose board includes top executives at Cisco, Adobe, and Mastercard, said that India risked hurting its own economy by imposing stringent rules on foreign tech companies. He said
> “It requires deep pockets. It requires world-class technologies. It requires a global supply chain,” Mr. Aghi said. “These companies are creating jobs.”
> Ajay Sawhney, the information technology secretary, who is helping to draft the regulations, said the government was keeping an open mind as it developed the final rules.
> “Our framework will be fair to all stakeholders,” he said. “We deeply appreciate the value that the tech companies and their platforms bring to our country.”
[+] [-] nchallak|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] firasd|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Eridrus|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danbolt|7 years ago|reply
I can’t speak for what it’s like in India though, and I can understand how having data locally can be an avenue for corruption like you say.
[+] [-] cryptozeus|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xae342|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stevemoonto|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] chimeracoder|7 years ago|reply
As someone who's also Indian, and also remembers Indian pre-colonial and colonial history, I'm entirely on board with taking active measures to ensure we don't repeat the past.
Yes, all governments have an incentive to spy on their citizens - just look at Australia or the US or the UK. But India has very legitimate reasons to oppose foreign control of its technological infrastructure. And unlike those other countries, India has also established a right to privacy.
[+] [-] mark_l_watson|7 years ago|reply
To me one of the pleasures of the world is different cultures, ethnicities, food, local politics, etc. I don’t want a “homogenized world” in which everything seems the same in different countries.
[+] [-] bacon_waffle|7 years ago|reply
Of course homogeneity is not what we want, and not just because it's boring for visitors. But, I don't think that encouraging people in a different country/region/community (especially a smaller one) to roll their own tools is helpful either. There is so much work involved in creating and maintaining all this stuff - and the resources required are often in short supply. It seems much better if we can all leverage off each other to make better things, to be shared with the wider community.
I think the issue is more about preserving the right amount of local control over tech used locally, rather than building that tech locally from local tools.
[+] [-] housingpost|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sseth|7 years ago|reply
In the beginning it quotes a railway official saying enough of foreign influence. The Indian railways on the other hand is working closely with Google to deliver free wifi in nearly 400 stations. Google has even formed a susidiary to do this - Google Station.
There may be data protection and privacy requirements which come in - but that is not about colonization. A lot of the awareness on privacy is coming as more and more Indians come in touch with the internet and start wrestling with these issues. More importantly, it is the widespread use of Aadhar, a biometric unique identification system by the government which has also triggered the supreme court to look at data privacy issues. Surely a journalist worth their salt would mention this.
Rather than any push back against tech colonization, i would argue that what we are seeing is a greater awareness on the part of government and citizens about the need for data privacy, as well as concern around misuse of social media. And it will extend to local and global players, obviously.
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] rajekas|7 years ago|reply
I am not as worried about the ease with which Indian citizen's privacy will be violated if these laws pass - systems such as Aadhar are far greater threats to our privacy and those come with the full force of the law and have support from every government in power, whether NDA or UPA or some third alliance. Plus, I would want foreign companies collecting data about Indian citizens to be accountable to the Indian public. The Bhopal tragedy is a good example of what happens when a foreign company isn't accountable to Indians in any manner whatsoever.
Of course, one might doubt whether Indian efforts to secure our data will withstand NSA or Chinese efforts to crack them, but we won't know until we try!
[+] [-] phobosdeimos|7 years ago|reply
They are on the right track, America is going off the deep end and can no longer be relied upon as a trustworthy and sane ally. The EU is desperately trying to get away from that sinking ship but you can't undo 70 years of geopolitical and economic reality easily.
[+] [-] amadeuspagel|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jopsen|7 years ago|reply
Data protections like the EU did may sound good. But it took the EU years to develop the framework, another 4 years before into effect, and even more time before it's fully adopted.
India doesn't exactly have a record for graceful administration (thinking of the currency debacle). And if you do this with less elegance than what the EU did.. you risk creating a huge (expensive) mess..
Tech platforms bring a lot of value. By enabling commerce and many local enterprises. Trying to move too fast could have very bad consequences. Even the slow stuff the EU did, was somewhat of a mess..
And then let's not even get started on the mess access to private information without a warrant would bring..
I hope they move slow make something with less negative side effects than what the EU did. Then this could be good.
[+] [-] pankajdoharey|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] omarforgotpwd|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] walrus01|7 years ago|reply
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_India
[+] [-] naiveai|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matheusmoreira|7 years ago|reply
Because they don't answer to the country's government.
US-based internet companies answer to the US government only. This is an implication of nearly every site's terms of service. For example, Y Combinator's says you can't post illegal stuff and even mentions the US directly. The implication is "don't get us in trouble here in the US -- we couldn't care less what's legal or illegal in your country." Not very respectful of their sovereignty.
Obviously, indian authorities hold nearly zero power over these companies. They can't enforce indian laws on US citizens. It's not like they can show up at their doorstep and arrest people for failing to comply with a court order or something. Their only law enforcement weapon is to block the site, preventing them from reaching indians at all. That's why having local alternatives is extremely valuable.
[+] [-] manish_gill|7 years ago|reply
As someone who is concerned about user and data privacy, I like these developments. What's anti-colonial about it other than just a catchy headline?
[+] [-] davidp670|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Teknoman117|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adamson|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nilsocket|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] niceperson|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chewz|7 years ago|reply
So did India had already fixed it's railroads and now is taking on the internet?
[+] [-] nilsocket|7 years ago|reply
This is also raising an awareness among some of Indian population.
They were in plan of rewriting their history books, about their world's first University, astrology mathematics, Vedic sciences, medical sciences ... The list goes on. Obviously India contributing more than 27% of GDP for more than thousand years and there achievements in mathematics, Number system, trigonometry,calculus, algebra and Invention of surgery...
There open-trade system, and being a free culture, they used to have places for debate, and everybody can worship which ever God they want, if one doesn't like any God, you can create one and pray.
There used to be a lot of competition for admissions to Indian universities from all over the world.
And ofcourse yoga, mediation, home for Hinduism, Buddhism,...
They're Vedic knowledge was extraordinary.
[+] [-] int_19h|7 years ago|reply
Indeed. For some more examples:
https://www.altnews.in/bjp-science-ganeshas-plastic-surgery-...
[+] [-] nilsocket|7 years ago|reply
Without having any valid argument to support, don't do downvote just because you feel something is not right.
[+] [-] nilsocket|7 years ago|reply