Back in my high school days, I made a beautiful damascus blade from 5160 leaf springs and 1095. After having worked in the labs at https://www.scotforge.com/, it is apparent damascus has very little large scale use due to weak tensile strengths(which of course depends on the forging process). However, in personal, small scale use, I've noticed my damascus blade has withstood much more than say, a pure 1095 blade could endure. Essentially, the higher the carbon the more brittle the blade despite the heat treatment process. Damascus in a small blade seemed to yield properties of each steel involved without using a costly alloy. It is very difficult to combine high carbon steels with stainless steels due to the large difference in heat treatment processes, as stainless steels are very often air hardened, and carbon steels are hardened in a brine or oil solution.
pattern welding is, effectively, a solution to a problem we don't have any more.
When steel quality varied widely between batches, you needed a reliable way to mix it up so that the overall properties of the resulting object were predictable. This evolved into a more sophisticated technique that gave you not only predictability but differential properties (harder steel at the edge, more ductile in the spine) and a pretty visual result.
The batch variability problem isn't a problem any more, and we can get differential properties with very precise heat treatments now, so all that's left is the pretty visual result.
So, if it appeals to you; great! Just don't think you're getting anything that's super magical above and beyond what a modern alloy can do.
I know this does not have anithing to do with knives but Samurai swords are made from four different kinds of steel. The core, back, sides and the cutting edge. The sword is straight when forged and the arc comes from the hardening when the cutting edge expands more than the rest. Source: witnessed in person the first time when a katana was forged outside of japan at a festival at the japanese culture institute in cologne. The swordsmiths have the rank of a priest and wear white robes.
I’m not sure that is fully true - the authority on this that I think has proven out his trustworthiness in the knifemaking community, Kevin Cashen, makes a compelling argument that with correct heat treatment, pattern welding gives you the ability to mix alloys. He frequently uses an O1/L6 blend.
I am not saying that most of it isn’t cosmetic - that is certaninly the point most of the time, but, for boutique knife makers, it can give you more options if what you want is not available in a commercially made alloy. Keep in mind that most commercial steels are not the “best possible” for knives, but frequently the best balance of performance, and manufacturability (I.e. they avoid very complicated heat treats, and very expensive hard grinding with lots of embedded carbides).
To my understanding Damascus was indeed not needed anymore as sword fighting came out of fashion. For swords it was very useful to have flexible yet sharp blades. Or has Damascus steel been traditionally used for knives too?
For the pocket knife aficionados out there, if your ever in Portland higly reccomend taking a tour of Benchmade's factory. They've got a ton of history about the company and you get a chance to view the factory floor(industrial laser cutters!) where all their knives are made.
My day job is driving a 4kW fibre laser for cutting steel. AMA ;)
Recently a couple of people have had me cut knives from old circular saw blades from timber mills. It's a fairly hard wearing steel, and they got the old blades for free.
Just hobby knives, I think they do it mostly for the enjoyment of making their own knives, well fitting and shaping the handle, sharpening it. You'd still be able to say "I made that" to a much greater extend than a store bought one.
> When it comes down to it, most of today’s super exotic alloys will outperform any pattern-welded steel ... A well-made Damascus blade will stay sharp for longer than most production quality knives, but if you’re looking for the ends-of-the-earth best performing blade steel, look elsewhere
Can someone link/name one of these super exotic alloys knifes?
Some examples would be CPM S30V, S35VN, S90V, and S110V; CPM 3V, 9V, 10V, 15V; A2, D2, O1 and S7; VG-10.
Some of these are arguably "more Damascus than Damascus", in a sense that they're also mixes, but on a much finer level. For example, S30V - a relatively affordable "super steel" - is one of those known as "powder steels" due to the way they're made, achieving extreme uniformity and purity of the alloy even at microscopic level:
This lets knife makers create alloys that are outright impossible using traditional methods (because they wouldn't be able to make them uniform enough). It also means that they can formulate an alloy precisely to match the desired qualities, instead of approximating it by mixing steels in layers as Damascus does.
The kind of stuff we can do with modern technology and modern materials would be considered genuine magic back in the days where the quality of those blades was a life-or-death matter. It's kinda ironic that these days, we use it for EDC knives to avoid sharpening them more often than we'd like.
Here's a good example of how a modern knife made from one of the highest-end steels performs (scroll down to the "Performance" section):
Personally, I don't see the value in going for something super-exotic.
It's not exactly the fanciest exotic alloy knife in the world, but my Global G-2 is an amazing workhorse of a knife. I've owned the knife for 8 years, and, while I take good care of it, I've never babied it — it's still in impeccable condition and remarkably sharp (I've never gotten around to resharpening it).
A go-to for non-stainless that many people get excellent performance from is 52100 - which is ball bearing steel. Not a “super steel” but very high performance when given a good treatment (I.e. from a maker that understands how to treat it in a knife making context)
CPM154 and S30V are pretty special steels. Nearly impossible to home-heat treat without a lot of equipment, (molten salts pots, cryogenic equipment). When done right, though, they sure perform.
> Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has been lost to the centuries.
I've watched the artists on Man at Arms Reforged make wootz steel in a kiln from pig iron and wrought iron when recreating a Viking-era sword. It certainly isn't lost.
Can I ask how you got started, and why? Thinking about picking up knife making as a hobby and curious about your experience. Feel free to email me - address in profile.
Al Pendray in the documentary also wrote a book about Wootz and explained why he believes the technique was 'lost to history':
> The smiths that produced the high-quality blades would most likely have kept the process for making these blades a closely guarded secret to be passed on only to their apprentices. The smiths would be able to teach the apprentices the second and third points listed, but point one is something they would not have known. There is no difference in physical appearance between an ingot with the proper minor elements present and one without. Suppose that during several generations all of the ingots from India were coming from an ore body with the proper amount of minor elements present, and blades with good patterns were being produced. Then, after a few centuries, the ore source may have been exhausted or become inaccessible to the smithing community; therefore, the technique no longer worked. With time, the smiths who knew about the technique died out without passing it on to their apprentices (since it no longer worked), so even if a similar source was later found, the knowledge was no longer around to exploit it. The possible validity of this theory could be examined if data were available on the level of carbide-forming elements in the various ore deposits in India used to produce wootz steel.
Damascus steel requires much more time to hone. It holds an edge longer, but I'm not sure it is worth the frustration involved in getting an edge.
My favorite straight razors are my vintage ones, mostly because the steel is of lower quality....they take an edge real fast!
Damascus steel also makes products very expensive. I tend to lose straight razors and pocket knives, so it doesn't make sense to make such a large investment. The investment will extend to honing stones....you'll probably want a Belgian Coticule which run $100+.
Damascus steel looks super cool though. If I was a superstar sushi chef, I'd want Damasteel just for the brag points.
Your experience is not wrong, but the cause you attribute it to is. Damascus steels are made out of modern steels. Modern steels tend to contain molybdenum, vanadium, chromium, tungsten, etc. when they are heat treated, some of those elements above form carbides in the steel. When you try to cut those carbides with a stone, you don’t. You need diamond stones to sharpen high carbide steel. Without that, the carbide scores the water stone and the stone erodes the steel around the carbide inclusions. Essentially making the edge lumpy.
In old steels -1077, 1084, and 1095, there are few carbides that aren’t iron-based. This makes sharpening much much easier, and also makes edges dull much faster. In a straight razor, I (like you) would rather optimize for easy sharpening/honing, but, for other purposes, more modern steels perform better.
Is it possible to make corrosion resistant stainless in the Damascus style...or will the dissimilar materials cause galvanic corrosion or the spaces between the different alloys result in crevice corrosion?
Kycoera is one popular brand. But off late it seems like ceramic knives have hit upon some production efficiency, and there are many brands to choose from.
They do blunt, say after 6 months of use. Kyocera for one, provides a free sharpening service if you mail their knives in. Ceramic blade gets sharpened on diamond wheels, and they have to be mailed in.
This post is blatantly wrong. Wootz steel (sourced from India but known in the West as Damascus steel because that was where a lot of the blades were made) was not pattern welded / folded.
Pattern welding was used in the West to try and emulate these blades, and has gotten the name "Damascus steel", but it is not classic Damascus / wootz steel.
> "First, let’s do a little freshening up on what exactly “Damascus steel” is. Damascus, Wootz, and patternweld are all names given to different types of steels and blades. Basically, the idea is that two or more steel alloys are forged/cast together through various methods to give the wavy artistic pattern that comes from such a layering process. Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has been lost to the centuries. Anyone claiming to be making authentic Wootz/Damascus these days is delusional. Or lying . . ."
...
> "The other type of pattern-welded steel is the so called “Damascus steel”. Originally used in middle eastern sword making, the method has been lost since about the 16th century. The art form has resurfaced, though, and in 1973 bladesmith William F. Moran unveiled his “Damascus knives” at the Knifemakers’ Guild Show. Ever since then modern pattern-welded steel blades have been called “Damascus knives”."
That, too, is an ambiguous term, since damascene and damascening can refer to ground, engraved or machined surface patterning (such as in watchmaking or "engine turned" panels).
So sad to see an article written about Damascus steel origin without the origin being mentioned. The origin of Damascus steel was India where it was called Ukku. Wootz is derived from Ukku.
[+] [-] Caillebotte|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hprotagonist|7 years ago|reply
When steel quality varied widely between batches, you needed a reliable way to mix it up so that the overall properties of the resulting object were predictable. This evolved into a more sophisticated technique that gave you not only predictability but differential properties (harder steel at the edge, more ductile in the spine) and a pretty visual result.
The batch variability problem isn't a problem any more, and we can get differential properties with very precise heat treatments now, so all that's left is the pretty visual result.
So, if it appeals to you; great! Just don't think you're getting anything that's super magical above and beyond what a modern alloy can do.
[+] [-] scns|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abakker|7 years ago|reply
I am not saying that most of it isn’t cosmetic - that is certaninly the point most of the time, but, for boutique knife makers, it can give you more options if what you want is not available in a commercially made alloy. Keep in mind that most commercial steels are not the “best possible” for knives, but frequently the best balance of performance, and manufacturability (I.e. they avoid very complicated heat treats, and very expensive hard grinding with lots of embedded carbides).
[+] [-] n1000|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vvanders|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheSpiceIsLife|7 years ago|reply
Recently a couple of people have had me cut knives from old circular saw blades from timber mills. It's a fairly hard wearing steel, and they got the old blades for free.
Just hobby knives, I think they do it mostly for the enjoyment of making their own knives, well fitting and shaping the handle, sharpening it. You'd still be able to say "I made that" to a much greater extend than a store bought one.
[+] [-] stephengillie|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 21|7 years ago|reply
Can someone link/name one of these super exotic alloys knifes?
[+] [-] int_19h|7 years ago|reply
Some of these are arguably "more Damascus than Damascus", in a sense that they're also mixes, but on a much finer level. For example, S30V - a relatively affordable "super steel" - is one of those known as "powder steels" due to the way they're made, achieving extreme uniformity and purity of the alloy even at microscopic level:
https://www.knifeart.com/particlesteel.html
This lets knife makers create alloys that are outright impossible using traditional methods (because they wouldn't be able to make them uniform enough). It also means that they can formulate an alloy precisely to match the desired qualities, instead of approximating it by mixing steels in layers as Damascus does.
The kind of stuff we can do with modern technology and modern materials would be considered genuine magic back in the days where the quality of those blades was a life-or-death matter. It's kinda ironic that these days, we use it for EDC knives to avoid sharpening them more often than we'd like.
Here's a good example of how a modern knife made from one of the highest-end steels performs (scroll down to the "Performance" section):
http://knifeinformer.com/spyderco-military-s110v-review/
[+] [-] phonon|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pdpi|7 years ago|reply
It's not exactly the fanciest exotic alloy knife in the world, but my Global G-2 is an amazing workhorse of a knife. I've owned the knife for 8 years, and, while I take good care of it, I've never babied it — it's still in impeccable condition and remarkably sharp (I've never gotten around to resharpening it).
[+] [-] abakker|7 years ago|reply
CPM154 and S30V are pretty special steels. Nearly impossible to home-heat treat without a lot of equipment, (molten salts pots, cryogenic equipment). When done right, though, they sure perform.
[+] [-] mbubb|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Blackthorn|7 years ago|reply
I've watched the artists on Man at Arms Reforged make wootz steel in a kiln from pig iron and wrought iron when recreating a Viking-era sword. It certainly isn't lost.
edit: video here if anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EG34YoRHs8
[+] [-] frostburg|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] burnte|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] dmourati|7 years ago|reply
I think of damascus as an aesthetic element first. Some people really like it, others find it too flashy.
[+] [-] kareemm|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] learc83|7 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4
[+] [-] dmix|7 years ago|reply
> The smiths that produced the high-quality blades would most likely have kept the process for making these blades a closely guarded secret to be passed on only to their apprentices. The smiths would be able to teach the apprentices the second and third points listed, but point one is something they would not have known. There is no difference in physical appearance between an ingot with the proper minor elements present and one without. Suppose that during several generations all of the ingots from India were coming from an ore body with the proper amount of minor elements present, and blades with good patterns were being produced. Then, after a few centuries, the ore source may have been exhausted or become inaccessible to the smithing community; therefore, the technique no longer worked. With time, the smiths who knew about the technique died out without passing it on to their apprentices (since it no longer worked), so even if a similar source was later found, the knowledge was no longer around to exploit it. The possible validity of this theory could be examined if data were available on the level of carbide-forming elements in the various ore deposits in India used to produce wootz steel.
http://www.thetruthaboutknives.com/2017/06/knifemaking-legen...
[+] [-] claydavisss|7 years ago|reply
My favorite straight razors are my vintage ones, mostly because the steel is of lower quality....they take an edge real fast!
Damascus steel also makes products very expensive. I tend to lose straight razors and pocket knives, so it doesn't make sense to make such a large investment. The investment will extend to honing stones....you'll probably want a Belgian Coticule which run $100+.
Damascus steel looks super cool though. If I was a superstar sushi chef, I'd want Damasteel just for the brag points.
[+] [-] abakker|7 years ago|reply
In old steels -1077, 1084, and 1095, there are few carbides that aren’t iron-based. This makes sharpening much much easier, and also makes edges dull much faster. In a straight razor, I (like you) would rather optimize for easy sharpening/honing, but, for other purposes, more modern steels perform better.
[+] [-] Blackthorn|7 years ago|reply
I don't think there is any truth to this. It's one of the myths listed here, and goes into detail: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/07/30/five-myths-about-dama...
[+] [-] loopycode|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _emacsomancer_|7 years ago|reply
The 'pattern-welded' Damascus is known from Europe (maybe as an attempt to replicate the 'wootz' style Damascus?) But it exists elsewhere as well.
[+] [-] dingoegret|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CaliforniaKarl|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] deedubaya|7 years ago|reply
https://youtu.be/J3nojb-gFH4
[+] [-] legohead|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justicezyx|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] efremjw|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grzm|7 years ago|reply
> "Devin makes all-stainless Damascus steel, high contrast, double high carbon, and many, many exotic patterns."
[+] [-] gesman|7 years ago|reply
Absolute hardest material for knife blades is ZrO2 (Zirconium dioxide == Ceramic).
It also the most brittle, but never rusts and holds sharpness for insane amount of time.
[+] [-] somberi|7 years ago|reply
They do blunt, say after 6 months of use. Kyocera for one, provides a free sharpening service if you mail their knives in. Ceramic blade gets sharpened on diamond wheels, and they have to be mailed in.
[+] [-] witcher|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dingoegret|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ummonk|7 years ago|reply
Pattern welding was used in the West to try and emulate these blades, and has gotten the name "Damascus steel", but it is not classic Damascus / wootz steel.
[+] [-] grzm|7 years ago|reply
> "First, let’s do a little freshening up on what exactly “Damascus steel” is. Damascus, Wootz, and patternweld are all names given to different types of steels and blades. Basically, the idea is that two or more steel alloys are forged/cast together through various methods to give the wavy artistic pattern that comes from such a layering process. Unfortunately, the technique for making both Damascus and Wootz steel has been lost to the centuries. Anyone claiming to be making authentic Wootz/Damascus these days is delusional. Or lying . . ."
...
> "The other type of pattern-welded steel is the so called “Damascus steel”. Originally used in middle eastern sword making, the method has been lost since about the 16th century. The art form has resurfaced, though, and in 1973 bladesmith William F. Moran unveiled his “Damascus knives” at the Knifemakers’ Guild Show. Ever since then modern pattern-welded steel blades have been called “Damascus knives”."
[+] [-] dingoegret|7 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] stan_rogers|7 years ago|reply
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