_And you can start testing [that] by sending them different kinds of advertising to see some kind of behavior in the [listening] patterns.” These are insights that are then quickly shared throughout GM’s various divisions. _
What the actual fuck. It's a car that you've paid several tens of thousands for.
Google pestering you for personal data in return for '''''free''''' services is terrible because they are a monopoly, but in a sense we're to blame by expecting not to pay money for maps, mail, search. But this is about a car, on average one of the most expensive things a person owns.
Makes you wonder... How will we look back on this day and age 40 years from now?
40years? try 10years when everyone will be using ride-sharing companies that have all sort of cameras and the passenger doesn't have any expectation of privacy to begin with.
as an engine mechanic by trade, Ive seen the 4G trend in cars ramp up over the past 5-6 years and its more than a little startling.
From what i hear in the customer service office up front, info-tainment universally sucks. There isnt a single manufacturer that hasnt turned the radio and air conditioner into some sort of rube goldberg machine. the switches on the steering wheel also adhere to absolutely no standard, so drivers are either turning the volume up on that classic rock song they love or setting the cruise control to plow through an intersection.
To add insult to injury, these systems are all needlessly expensive. a knob or a button will last ten times longer than a screen, especially if the vehicle is light truck/small business or god forbid, a family wagon/minivan.
The thing about the 4G interface software is that originally it was a powered accessory in the vehicle, but these days its an integral component. that means if it goes out, or you remove it, the car throws a code in the ECU and a light shows up on the dash. Why? internal combustion doesnt require 4G. in fact most drivers one would argue are better on the road without cellular networks.
If you want to avoid this weird 1984 wonderland of cars that spy on passengers, go for an older car. Mileage rarely matters anymore for cars 2006+, and platforms from manufacturers can remain the same for a decade. That means the only thing that changes is the interior cloth or shape of a button. I drive a 2005 Dodge Charger RT, and the only two people who know the music I like are my dog and my husband.
I drive a newer car (2018 Camaro SS 1LE) and only Apple and I know what music I listen to. Even without disabling OnStar.
Rather than living with an older car, I think we should tackle issues like this head-on, since they're not going away. Legislation, or just making a shitstorm for the manufacturer, stuff like that.
In this case didn't GM specifically ask people to opt-in anyway? As long as it's overt, and not in some fine print somewhere, I don't think it's that big a deal.
In no way would cruise control force an attentive driver to blow through an intersection. You hit the brake and cruise control stops. If you didn't hit the brake, you weren't paying attention and you would have go through it anyway.
Having controls on the steering wheel are much safer than having someone blindly reaching for a knob or touchscreen. How many crashes have happened because someone has looked down and taken a hand off the steering wheel to adjust the volume knob? It only takes a second for someone to pull out in front of you or for a pedestrian to step out into the street. The less you need to take your hands off the steering wheel and the less you need to look away to control other things, the less you'll be looking somewhere and doing something else when that critical moment happens.
Sure, the lack of standards suck. I drove a loaner this past weekend because my car was at the dealer getting work. The new car had similar steering wheel controls but some of the lever switches did things in the opposite direction. But after driving with it for a day, I got used to it and that was that. They aren't too complicated that it takes years of study to figure out. Look at the manual. Try it out while in park and you'll be fine.
Is there any index of spyware free devices/products? Or I guess I should say products that haven't been caught including spyware yet. This is getting absurd.
Two recent purchases that I specifically avoided internet connectivity for:
—Eufy RoboVac 11S - Robot Vacuums
—Coway Airmega 300 - Air Purifier
I recently had a discussion about the iRobot Roomba line. I don't need a vacuum connected to the internet, yet every vacuum in the Roomba lineup now has an internet connection. Why? I cannot see a benefit to the consumer.
Anyways, I think this is a fantastic idea and have started to put a list here together here. Any other products I should add?
For example, I can say to you now that apple, google and samsung devices are very high on spyware. Would you even start considering replacing your phone?
We need a better way of disabling this physically - by removing the 4G/LTE connectivity in cars.
Remove connectivity, and that data collection is moot.
I'm looking to buy a car in the coming months / year - and I've narrowed it down to the C43, S60 and G70 and all those cars come with "connected features" that I have no need or want for. (find your car anywhere, unlock and remote start your car, send maps to your car, set climate control, check fuel/servicing etc. via an app / website). I partially blame Tesla for starting this trend.
It's absolute madness that we have cars companies that generally don't know a ton about software building technology that's generally insecure, will not be updated and mass producing it at scale and being used by 10000s (or even 100000s) of people worldwide. This is a recipe for a easily avoidable disaster waiting to happen and people who've paid 10s or 100s of thousands of $ are the victims. (and ofc they'll use this as an excuse to add more tech instead of less making it a house of cards - Eg. Oh you want secure features - guess what? we've added 4G/5G/LTE support. oh we'll also take in all your data to pay for it anyways).
> We need a better way of disabling this physically - by removing the 4G/LTE connectivity in cars.
> ...
> It's absolute madness that we have cars companies that generally don't know a ton about software building technology that's generally insecure, will not be updated and mass producing it at scale and being used by 10000s (or even 100000s) of people worldwide.
This! This a thousand times!
Last year I bought a new car, and one of my main deal-breaker criteria was the presence of an LTE modem. I don't want an internet-connected computer-on-wheels built by a company that has no idea how to build secure software and that doesn't have an engineering culture that's compatible with security. There's a too-large chance that they'll mess up and someone would ransom my car for a bitcoin (in the best-case hacking scenario).
It was tricky to figure out what cars had network connections, since the salespeople don't understand the technology, just the sales pitches. The questions that worked best for me were "Does this car have connected features such as remote door unlocking available?" followed by "If I want those features after I buy the car, will I have to take it back to get something installed?" Some cars, like Subarus ship without the connected car features, but the dealership can enable them remotely once you sign up for the monthly charges. That means their cars have an always-on LTE modem.
IMHO, it's going to take at least ten years for 1) car companies to learn the hard way how to develop secure software* and 2) develop a reliable and safe self-driving car that works in my climate. I figured now was the time to buy one of the "last good" cars that I could drive until this stuff is sorted out.
Turns out the one I got has a Android center console that's rootable through a well-known method, but at least I have to manually connect to a Wifi network for that to happen. And, frankly, who does that?
* IIRC, Microsoft took a similar path, first having comically insecure software, to taking security seriously, to actually getting good at it.
Well, I can tell them how I listen to the radio... as soon as ads come on, I turn it off or tune to another station, and return no sooner than in 5 minutes once the ads are done. That is when I listen to the radio at all, which is rare for this exact reason; mostly it's just my own music via Bluetooth.
"The automaker is executed tests of some 90,000 drivers across the Chicago and Los Angeles areas from November 2017 through to January 2018 after those drivers gave permission for their data to be processed in this manner."
I'm glad I have a 2006 car without any of this crap with a Pioneer head unit that has no Internet access (although it can bluetooth connect to my phone; but just for audio/calls).
Needing to update maps using an sdcard doesn't seem like a limitation at all to me. It's a big advantage! I control when my stereo makes updates .. and my stereo doesn't track me!
At a minimum, it's nice to read this tracking relies on the 4g wifi from OnStar to be active (included in the higher-tier of their paid service). Nice, because I've cancelled their service. However, even after you've cancelled OnStar, there is still basic tracking enabled, but not this radio non-sense.
If they're going to sell our listening habits and whatever else, then at least they can give us the wifi for free.
After getting a GM/Chevy recently, it reminded me of removing the bloatware on a cheap Windows laptop, except in this case, I didn't have the option to install a fresh OS. It comes bundled with free trials of OnStar and Sirius, both of which employ tactics to keep you onboard. Sigh...
I am filled with despair that this is normalised behaviour now. I can't honestly think what its going to take to back off from this direction - younger generations aren't cognisant of the risks enough to want such tracking to be illegal, are they?
What's it going to take to put these heinous actions in the grave?
They're called "hot rods", and there's always been a small market for them. Depending on where you live the legal requirements to get one licensed vary from "easy" to "impossible", but it won't be cheap.
I doubt there'd be a demand. We are the vocal minority here on HN. I think it's more likely people like us will buy older cars with non 4G/cell based head units.
This concern, "chipped cars" is going to be played over and over. It all goes to some variation on "(chipped) people are too X to have that responsibility aka write access to their chips".
The closed hidden operating systems hiding in every baseband and major CPU are winning their war on general purpose computing. It's a problem.
Perhaps GM can also use their super fancy studies to realise that having owned my car for 8 years I can recite the navigation system's safety notice from memory and don't need it to be displayed every single time I use it. I don't even use it for navigation most of the time, I just like it to display the name of the road I'm currently on or sometimes my current map position. Having a message pop up that I need to dismiss is so annoying.
You bought a first gen, expect that American cars will have the newest technology at a cost.
It was untested at consumer levels at the time.
I'm sure if you got a 2017 this problem would be fixed.
EDIT: To be clear on what is factual- American Cars are known in the industry to implement new tech before everyone. This isnt an AMERIKA IS BEST, this is how these companies actually act. Euro goes for style, Japanese go for old school reliability. These are not opinions, these are styles and market niches.
A car built in 2009 is going to have 2009 technology. The first vehicles with screens are going to have UI problems and be slow.
I can only find one other source for this news and there's no press releases that I can find. Perhaps someone with access to advertising trade journals could dig something up?
Edit: got it - http://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/09/gm-studies-drivers-radio... - The automaker’s director/global digital transformation, Saejin Park, said at the Association of National Advertisers’ (ANA) 2018 Data & Measurement Conference that the new insights can help serve up better ads.
“The automaker is executed tests of some 90,000 drivers across the Chicago and Los Angeles areas from November 2017 through to January 2018 after those drivers gave permission for their data to be processed in this manner.”
Hey, we’ve updated TOS, accept to continue using this service!
Even after living there for only 4 years it was always extremely jarring to go to Vancouver once a year and catch a train or bus with all the advertising on every surface, people buried on their phones, consumerism, pollution, etc.
[+] [-] isoprophlex|7 years ago|reply
What the actual fuck. It's a car that you've paid several tens of thousands for.
Google pestering you for personal data in return for '''''free''''' services is terrible because they are a monopoly, but in a sense we're to blame by expecting not to pay money for maps, mail, search. But this is about a car, on average one of the most expensive things a person owns.
Makes you wonder... How will we look back on this day and age 40 years from now?
[+] [-] grecy|7 years ago|reply
The cynic in me wants to say we will look back and wish our things still had off buttons.
[+] [-] taneq|7 years ago|reply
Just going to show that paying money for something doesn't guarantee that you aren't also the product.
[+] [-] gcb0|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] R_haterade|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nimbius|7 years ago|reply
From what i hear in the customer service office up front, info-tainment universally sucks. There isnt a single manufacturer that hasnt turned the radio and air conditioner into some sort of rube goldberg machine. the switches on the steering wheel also adhere to absolutely no standard, so drivers are either turning the volume up on that classic rock song they love or setting the cruise control to plow through an intersection.
To add insult to injury, these systems are all needlessly expensive. a knob or a button will last ten times longer than a screen, especially if the vehicle is light truck/small business or god forbid, a family wagon/minivan.
The thing about the 4G interface software is that originally it was a powered accessory in the vehicle, but these days its an integral component. that means if it goes out, or you remove it, the car throws a code in the ECU and a light shows up on the dash. Why? internal combustion doesnt require 4G. in fact most drivers one would argue are better on the road without cellular networks.
If you want to avoid this weird 1984 wonderland of cars that spy on passengers, go for an older car. Mileage rarely matters anymore for cars 2006+, and platforms from manufacturers can remain the same for a decade. That means the only thing that changes is the interior cloth or shape of a button. I drive a 2005 Dodge Charger RT, and the only two people who know the music I like are my dog and my husband.
[+] [-] rootusrootus|7 years ago|reply
Rather than living with an older car, I think we should tackle issues like this head-on, since they're not going away. Legislation, or just making a shitstorm for the manufacturer, stuff like that.
In this case didn't GM specifically ask people to opt-in anyway? As long as it's overt, and not in some fine print somewhere, I don't think it's that big a deal.
[+] [-] moftz|7 years ago|reply
Having controls on the steering wheel are much safer than having someone blindly reaching for a knob or touchscreen. How many crashes have happened because someone has looked down and taken a hand off the steering wheel to adjust the volume knob? It only takes a second for someone to pull out in front of you or for a pedestrian to step out into the street. The less you need to take your hands off the steering wheel and the less you need to look away to control other things, the less you'll be looking somewhere and doing something else when that critical moment happens.
Sure, the lack of standards suck. I drove a loaner this past weekend because my car was at the dealer getting work. The new car had similar steering wheel controls but some of the lever switches did things in the opposite direction. But after driving with it for a day, I got used to it and that was that. They aren't too complicated that it takes years of study to figure out. Look at the manual. Try it out while in park and you'll be fine.
[+] [-] clircle|7 years ago|reply
What happened in 2006 that made them less vulnerable to wear and tear?
[+] [-] ericd|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] electic|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samsolomon|7 years ago|reply
—Eufy RoboVac 11S - Robot Vacuums
—Coway Airmega 300 - Air Purifier
I recently had a discussion about the iRobot Roomba line. I don't need a vacuum connected to the internet, yet every vacuum in the Roomba lineup now has an internet connection. Why? I cannot see a benefit to the consumer.
Anyways, I think this is a fantastic idea and have started to put a list here together here. Any other products I should add?
https://productdork.com/t/list-of-tracking-and-spyware-free-...
[+] [-] userbinator|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gcb0|7 years ago|reply
For example, I can say to you now that apple, google and samsung devices are very high on spyware. Would you even start considering replacing your phone?
[+] [-] flukus|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sonaltr|7 years ago|reply
Remove connectivity, and that data collection is moot.
I'm looking to buy a car in the coming months / year - and I've narrowed it down to the C43, S60 and G70 and all those cars come with "connected features" that I have no need or want for. (find your car anywhere, unlock and remote start your car, send maps to your car, set climate control, check fuel/servicing etc. via an app / website). I partially blame Tesla for starting this trend.
It's absolute madness that we have cars companies that generally don't know a ton about software building technology that's generally insecure, will not be updated and mass producing it at scale and being used by 10000s (or even 100000s) of people worldwide. This is a recipe for a easily avoidable disaster waiting to happen and people who've paid 10s or 100s of thousands of $ are the victims. (and ofc they'll use this as an excuse to add more tech instead of less making it a house of cards - Eg. Oh you want secure features - guess what? we've added 4G/5G/LTE support. oh we'll also take in all your data to pay for it anyways).
[+] [-] ardy42|7 years ago|reply
> ...
> It's absolute madness that we have cars companies that generally don't know a ton about software building technology that's generally insecure, will not be updated and mass producing it at scale and being used by 10000s (or even 100000s) of people worldwide.
This! This a thousand times!
Last year I bought a new car, and one of my main deal-breaker criteria was the presence of an LTE modem. I don't want an internet-connected computer-on-wheels built by a company that has no idea how to build secure software and that doesn't have an engineering culture that's compatible with security. There's a too-large chance that they'll mess up and someone would ransom my car for a bitcoin (in the best-case hacking scenario).
It was tricky to figure out what cars had network connections, since the salespeople don't understand the technology, just the sales pitches. The questions that worked best for me were "Does this car have connected features such as remote door unlocking available?" followed by "If I want those features after I buy the car, will I have to take it back to get something installed?" Some cars, like Subarus ship without the connected car features, but the dealership can enable them remotely once you sign up for the monthly charges. That means their cars have an always-on LTE modem.
IMHO, it's going to take at least ten years for 1) car companies to learn the hard way how to develop secure software* and 2) develop a reliable and safe self-driving car that works in my climate. I figured now was the time to buy one of the "last good" cars that I could drive until this stuff is sorted out.
Turns out the one I got has a Android center console that's rootable through a well-known method, but at least I have to manually connect to a Wifi network for that to happen. And, frankly, who does that?
* IIRC, Microsoft took a similar path, first having comically insecure software, to taking security seriously, to actually getting good at it.
[+] [-] olex|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] voltagex_|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dawnerd|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jhayward|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] peterkelly|7 years ago|reply
The industry chose otherwise and gave us spying cars.
[+] [-] djsumdog|7 years ago|reply
Needing to update maps using an sdcard doesn't seem like a limitation at all to me. It's a big advantage! I control when my stereo makes updates .. and my stereo doesn't track me!
[+] [-] alexpw|7 years ago|reply
If they're going to sell our listening habits and whatever else, then at least they can give us the wifi for free.
After getting a GM/Chevy recently, it reminded me of removing the bloatware on a cheap Windows laptop, except in this case, I didn't have the option to install a fresh OS. It comes bundled with free trials of OnStar and Sirius, both of which employ tactics to keep you onboard. Sigh...
[+] [-] mmjaa|7 years ago|reply
What's it going to take to put these heinous actions in the grave?
[+] [-] stephengillie|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jpindar|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] userbinator|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gm-conspiracy|7 years ago|reply
By older, I mean early 90s. They have tripled in value in the last decade.
Very minimal electronics (has an ECU, cruise control, power doorlocks and windows), and easy to work on.
You can also buy salvaged Tesla parts and make your own vehicle...
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/videos/a30305/this-...
[+] [-] djsumdog|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jakeogh|7 years ago|reply
The closed hidden operating systems hiding in every baseband and major CPU are winning their war on general purpose computing. It's a problem.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18027736
[+] [-] snaky|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] petepete|7 years ago|reply
It's a total clusterfuck of an UX.
[+] [-] wild_preference|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MrEfficiency|7 years ago|reply
It was untested at consumer levels at the time.
I'm sure if you got a 2017 this problem would be fixed.
EDIT: To be clear on what is factual- American Cars are known in the industry to implement new tech before everyone. This isnt an AMERIKA IS BEST, this is how these companies actually act. Euro goes for style, Japanese go for old school reliability. These are not opinions, these are styles and market niches.
A car built in 2009 is going to have 2009 technology. The first vehicles with screens are going to have UI problems and be slow.
In 2017 this is unacceptable.
[+] [-] yuhong|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] voltagex_|7 years ago|reply
https://www.warc.com/newsandopinion/news/general_motors_gene... won't load for me.
Edit: got it - http://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/09/gm-studies-drivers-radio... - The automaker’s director/global digital transformation, Saejin Park, said at the Association of National Advertisers’ (ANA) 2018 Data & Measurement Conference that the new insights can help serve up better ads.
[+] [-] mrhappyunhappy|7 years ago|reply
Hey, we’ve updated TOS, accept to continue using this service!
[+] [-] brokenmachine|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] monochromatic|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grecy|7 years ago|reply
Even after living there for only 4 years it was always extremely jarring to go to Vancouver once a year and catch a train or bus with all the advertising on every surface, people buried on their phones, consumerism, pollution, etc.
[+] [-] tonyedgecombe|7 years ago|reply
Nothing is sacred anymore.
[+] [-] stephengillie|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cbm-vic-20|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stephengillie|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scotty79|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] costcopizza|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] qubax|7 years ago|reply
Seems like so much of the tech/business ecosystem is now centered around spying on you. Your OS, amazon's echo, social media, laptops, etc.
[+] [-] josefresco|7 years ago|reply
Sounds like they were sold a fancy tracking concept without any actual practical applications.