I would like to see an equivalent study on Indian weddings. All the people I know who got married recently spent between $50-$100k on their wedding. My own wedding was about $50k. Food alone was nearly $20k (over 1200 guests were invited - which was on the low end)
Genuine question: how is it possible to invite 1200 people? I can't imagine that you and your partner know 600 people each, I'd have a hard time finding 100 people to invite if I needed too
Is the view on smaller marriages changing with the generations?
I had 8 guests at my marriage and reception (France, 1995). It was purely by choice (no money constraints involved) and while the parents were a bit surprised, their opinion is that it was our marriage, not theirs.
This is unusual but when I mention that people are either indifferent or curious. Nobody takes this as "socially degrading" (for lack of a better expression)
Things have already changed. It's becoming more and more common in rural China to marry South East Asian women from places like Vietnam and Cambodia... which of course potentially spreads the problem
My wife and I eloped and were married for a total of $270 in Las Vegas (25 years ago). It is easily one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.
I have heard lots of people complain that they spent too much time, money and psychological goodwill on their elaborate marriage events, but I have never heard someone say they regretted a simple inexpensive wedding.
There are studies that the larger the bed (at home) and the fancier the reception, the shorter the marriage. But more friends means longer marriage. Basically a barbecue with heaps of mates predicts the longest marriages.
Of course the stats above are the land of correlations-not-causations; larger bed may mean financially more stable therefore more independant and less dependent on the partner’s income, or similar. Still fun ;)
Markets always appear next to scarcity, and laws against market operations always drive transactions underground, because supply and demand must be made to meet somehow. Without expressing approval per se of what's happening in China, I do have to express a total lack of surprise that people react to scarcity in one area in the same way they react to scarcity in every other.
Extreme gender imbalances are societally destabilizing, and the Chinese government, which is obsessed with social stability, should have reacted much faster once it noticed the gender gap in newborns. Now, it's too late, and a generation will be unhappy.
China is lucky in that they border a country with the opposite problem [1]:
> One feature of the Russian-Chinese relationship seemed especially telling: Cross-border marriages are overwhelmingly between Chinese men and Russian women. Much of this has to do with demographics—Russia has a surplus of women, while China has too many men.
In addition, the demographics issue might be overstated as many of the 'missing women' started to be 'found' once they turned 18 and needed to officially register with the government [2]:
> The researchers believe local government officials informally worked with farmers and acknowledged that they couldn't fully enforce the one-child policy. Instead they made tacit agreements in allowing families to have extra children in exchange for social stability in their communities. The cadres, or local governments, would then under-report “out of plan” births that ultimately influenced the national population statistics.
> To supplement the qualitative data, the researchers then examined Chinese population data by cohort, and they compared the number of children born in 1990 with the number of 20-year-old Chinese men and women in 2010. In that cohort, they discovered 4 million additional people, and of those there were approximately 1 million more women than men.
> "If we go over a course of 25 years, it's possible there are about 25 million women in the statistics that weren't there at birth," Kennedy said.
Are gender imbalances destabilising historically? It woild be interesting to see the history. After wars there was lack of men in some areas. Excess of men was during gold rush, in Australia and is in silicon valley.
(I am not sure how much it proves or disproved theory.)
assuming those in control are there for meritocracy and are competent and that's why are there, they would have reacted, but no, are there due to their parens/people they know, and bribes.
Same in india its called the dowry system. But now women are employed more and guess what its not changing as much it should be. Its strange that the educated employed women is expecting dowry from her parents to give it to her husbands(in most cases). The core problem is its considered a status issue. If the grand marriages are not celebrated and looked down then this might change.
I think the title is misleading: its not really marriage costs, its a payment to the bride/parents to account for the gender disparity in China caused by sex-selective abortions.
These bride costs should be allowed to climb infinitely, because it will serve as an incentive for families to have girls - and actually sex-selectively abort boys.
Unfortunately we are seeing all this in the West, where Asian migrants to countries like Australia are still selectively aborting girls. The difference is that other ethnicities are not, so those Asian boys can then grow up to marry girls from other communities, and a female shortage is pushed onto the whole of society. Its basically a tragedy of the commons.
> These bride costs should be allowed to climb infinitely, because it will serve as an incentive for families to have girls
Wow, a market correction to counteract societal undervaluation of females. If it could happen that would be profoundly constructive, but attitudes about gender are durable. It's not hard to imagine that instead of letting the price rise to incentivize an increase in supply, we could see see price fixing and rationing instead: the exertion of greater control over scarce resources and backwards progress in women's rights.
Not true. Inter-racial marriages are actually very rare in all western countries, just a drop in bucket (although they are more visible because of our tendency to remember surprises more often than norms). Usually Asian boys would travel back to their home country and marry someone from there based on their much better economic status.
Who cares what first generation immigrants do? Their children won’t do it and they’ll be a hell of a lot more acculturated than their parents ever will be. They won’t be doing sec selective abortion any more than those who are unhyphenated Australians.
Interesting article. I'm a little surprised on how abruptly the article just seems to end, the author suggests possible solutions to the problem, but doesn't argue them just presents them.
it is not a problem. marriage will need stable economical base. most time, the money from both family will go into fund the couple's life, as deposit for an apartment, purchase of a car or some sort. I would recommend that do not go into marriage without a stable finance. The social system in western countries of course are different, people don't have to worry about these issues.
I am planning to hopefully marry my girlfriend in the next couple of years and her parents are already asking for "at least a small amount like 10,000 USD", because "I'm white anyway", meaning I must be rich.
Taking into account all the abuse she had to take from them, and their lazy and useless way of life, they're not getting a penny from me.
Many people though feel powerless to resist and ruin themselves financially by paying it.
> Taking into account all the abuse she had to take from them
Some unsolicited advice, because internet: I really hope you understand what you're getting yourself into. I have no idea how familiar you are with Chinese culture, but be aware that family, especially parents, are very important in China. I'm sure you heard the "in China, you're not marrying a person, but a family" thing before. It really is deeply ingrained in Chinese culture, so depending on at which age and for how long she has lived in the West, despite her parents treating her bad, she might still feel a great urge to abide by her parents and pull an emergency bailout.
Even if she decides to cut ties with her family, which might very well happen if you don't pay a dime and make her parents lose face, keep in mind that now you need to be extra sure she is well integrated locally (friends, activities, social life). Again this depends a lot on how westernized she is, if not that much, having Chinese friends is crucial if you're living in an entirely different culture. Just don't let her get all reclusive and spend all time on Chinese social media. This might sound like a joke but I've seen it happen. The culture barrier is real. I've seen Germans struggling to adapt to the American way of living and vice versa, and they're ridiculously close compared to China and any Western country.
Also I hope the way her parents treat her doesn't trigger too much of a protective instinct. It's noble you want to help her but be really sure you know the person and want to stay with her. Breaking up now and sending her back to her parents might make her life miserable, or maybe not and she'll find someone back in China, but marrying her, fucking up her relationship with her parents and then realizing it doesn't work after a year or two will quite likely make her life miserable. (But depending on how ugly it has gotten, you might actually like that at that point).
Again this is general precautionary advice, mostly assuming worst case conditions.
Same shit is happening in India. If you dont have a H1B and never worked in US, good luck finding a girl. I am 27 right now and that too a low caste. I am seriously contemplating giving up hopes of marriage and remaining single. Will be tough as I dont have a family. All my family members were killed when I was young. I have stopped bothering and now just bury myself in work and reading to avoid the darkness.
Is that against some particular to them "lazy and useless way of life" they follow, or because their way of life doesn't match some american ideal (e.g. personal ambition and protestant-work-ethic), and thus it's "lazy and useless" because its different?
$10,000 is typical for bride-price in China and only a bit higher than average annual Chinese income. The Chinese do save more than 30% of their income so that is about three years of savings for average earners in China, which is quite high for them admittedly. If you work in a Western country and have a decent job (otherwise why should their daughter marry you anyway?) you can save $10,000 in less than two years. Many Chinese bachelors can do better than that, either they can command or commit more resources. That is along what they think.
The thing is, in China, you are not just married with the person you in love with, you also married to the family of that person. (And at the same time, that person is married to your family as well)
I remember when my colleagues was talking about whether or not they're letting their wife to manage their money. One person brought up "I've paid ￥XXXXXX for the 彩礼[0], so I'm not allowing her to limit how I spend my salary".
The idea was, as the man of the house, you provides, so you have some "power" over other family members. And that 10,000 USD you may need to pay, is the way of showing that you can provide.
Of course, all of that above is the "modern" explanation. In the ancient time, where the gender inequality is much severe, the Bride Price is mainly served as compensation to the female's family. Because after been married, the female will technically "leave" their own family and become a part of the male's family. That's why "Getting Married" is called "出嫁" at the female side, where "出" means leave (her own family).
One more thing, except for 彩礼[0], we also have 嫁妆[1] which is something that female's family will provide (technically to their own girl, though).
If you want to dig deeper, checkout one[2] Wiki page (If you can read, the Chinese version is better). If you're living in China, better ask your local Chinese friends, I bet their information is more accurate and detailed than the Wiki page.
How does your fiance, the person you presumably love and care about most in the world, feel about you doing that to her parents? I wonder how it affects her too; is it some kind of cultural statement that your fiance isn't worth anything? Hope not!
It could be a pretty big insult to her parents that would affect her relationship with them (and possibly with the rest of her family as well) for the rest of her parents' lives, and depending on how she feels about it and how the rest of her family feels about it, could affect her for the rest of her life as well.
If she's fine with it, sure, great plan. If it's going to make her miserable, perhaps not so great.
> Taking into account all the abuse she had to take from them, and their lazy and useless way of life, they're not getting a penny from me.
Then why are you planning to marry "into the family" if you have such a low opinion of them?
> Many people though feel powerless to resist and ruin themselves financially by paying it.
If $10K is going to ruin you financially, you shouldn't be marrying anyone. Not that I agree with the dowry custom, but $10K isn't that much money.
Just because you are lonely or feel like the girl you have is the only one you could get isn't reason to get married. Despite what you think now, parents/siblings/family matter. Money matters. And the longer you are married, the more important family and money becomes. Don't get married out of naivety or desperation.
A good start would be a law that ensures a woman’s claim on marital property in the case of a divorce. Current Chinese law makes no such provision, and thus provides a strong disincentive to marry and a very powerful incentive to charge higher bride prices.
We have laws like this in Europe. Marriages keep happening later and TFRs keep plummeting. Why would it work any different in China.
Journalists always push their prefferred policies even when there's no proof they solve the very clearly stated problem. Subsidize kindergartens! Mandatory, paid maternal leaves! All while populations that implemented them keep collapsing.
"Women are marrying later and having less kids because of career concerns, lack of maternity leave and child benefits."
The countries with the best maternity leave and child benefits have the oldest marriage and lowest birth rates.
And japan, where most women give up their jobs once married to start families and where the government pays women to have children have one of the lowest birth rates in the world.
So it's not career/jobs, it's not maternity leave, it's not child benefits. Could it be societal? Media? Education?
China is slightly different in that the sex ratio is skewed, there's more men than women. So giving women incentives for divorce probably wouldn't affect marriage rates that much (not that I think it's a good idea)
> All while populations that implemented them keep collapsing.
You say it like it would be a bad thing? It's a bit weird because I have had this impression that overpopulation, not underpopulation is some kind of a problem here on our home planet...
[+] [-] puranjay|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] williamdclt|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BrandoElFollito|7 years ago|reply
I had 8 guests at my marriage and reception (France, 1995). It was purely by choice (no money constraints involved) and while the parents were a bit surprised, their opinion is that it was our marriage, not theirs.
This is unusual but when I mention that people are either indifferent or curious. Nobody takes this as "socially degrading" (for lack of a better expression)
[+] [-] another-cuppa|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] chaostheory|7 years ago|reply
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/world/too-many-...
[+] [-] tomcam|7 years ago|reply
My wife and I eloped and were married for a total of $270 in Las Vegas (25 years ago). It is easily one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.
I have heard lots of people complain that they spent too much time, money and psychological goodwill on their elaborate marriage events, but I have never heard someone say they regretted a simple inexpensive wedding.
[+] [-] tajen|7 years ago|reply
Of course the stats above are the land of correlations-not-causations; larger bed may mean financially more stable therefore more independant and less dependent on the partner’s income, or similar. Still fun ;)
[+] [-] quotemstr|7 years ago|reply
Extreme gender imbalances are societally destabilizing, and the Chinese government, which is obsessed with social stability, should have reacted much faster once it noticed the gender gap in newborns. Now, it's too late, and a generation will be unhappy.
[+] [-] throw930336|7 years ago|reply
China is lucky in that they border a country with the opposite problem [1]:
> One feature of the Russian-Chinese relationship seemed especially telling: Cross-border marriages are overwhelmingly between Chinese men and Russian women. Much of this has to do with demographics—Russia has a surplus of women, while China has too many men.
In addition, the demographics issue might be overstated as many of the 'missing women' started to be 'found' once they turned 18 and needed to officially register with the government [2]:
> The researchers believe local government officials informally worked with farmers and acknowledged that they couldn't fully enforce the one-child policy. Instead they made tacit agreements in allowing families to have extra children in exchange for social stability in their communities. The cadres, or local governments, would then under-report “out of plan” births that ultimately influenced the national population statistics.
> To supplement the qualitative data, the researchers then examined Chinese population data by cohort, and they compared the number of children born in 1990 with the number of 20-year-old Chinese men and women in 2010. In that cohort, they discovered 4 million additional people, and of those there were approximately 1 million more women than men.
> "If we go over a course of 25 years, it's possible there are about 25 million women in the statistics that weren't there at birth," Kennedy said.
1. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/dispatches/f...
2. https://news.ku.edu/2016/11/22/study-finds-chinas-missing-gi...
[+] [-] draugadrotten|7 years ago|reply
Imagine what will happen in Northern Europe after the large influx of asian single men who will want to marry in a few years.
China - 114 men for 100 women (wikipedia) Sweden - 123 men for 100 women (BBC) https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35444173
[+] [-] watwut|7 years ago|reply
(I am not sure how much it proves or disproved theory.)
[+] [-] kown223|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rick22|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beerlord|7 years ago|reply
These bride costs should be allowed to climb infinitely, because it will serve as an incentive for families to have girls - and actually sex-selectively abort boys.
Unfortunately we are seeing all this in the West, where Asian migrants to countries like Australia are still selectively aborting girls. The difference is that other ethnicities are not, so those Asian boys can then grow up to marry girls from other communities, and a female shortage is pushed onto the whole of society. Its basically a tragedy of the commons.
[+] [-] rectang|7 years ago|reply
Wow, a market correction to counteract societal undervaluation of females. If it could happen that would be profoundly constructive, but attitudes about gender are durable. It's not hard to imagine that instead of letting the price rise to incentivize an increase in supply, we could see see price fixing and rationing instead: the exertion of greater control over scarce resources and backwards progress in women's rights.
[+] [-] tinkerteller|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] barry-cotter|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rahimnathwani|7 years ago|reply
Eh? Wouldn't parents demand a risk discount for paying up?
[+] [-] richardknop|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] doombolt|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] plouffy|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] powerapple|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hkai|7 years ago|reply
Taking into account all the abuse she had to take from them, and their lazy and useless way of life, they're not getting a penny from me.
Many people though feel powerless to resist and ruin themselves financially by paying it.
[+] [-] iforgotpassword|7 years ago|reply
Some unsolicited advice, because internet: I really hope you understand what you're getting yourself into. I have no idea how familiar you are with Chinese culture, but be aware that family, especially parents, are very important in China. I'm sure you heard the "in China, you're not marrying a person, but a family" thing before. It really is deeply ingrained in Chinese culture, so depending on at which age and for how long she has lived in the West, despite her parents treating her bad, she might still feel a great urge to abide by her parents and pull an emergency bailout.
Even if she decides to cut ties with her family, which might very well happen if you don't pay a dime and make her parents lose face, keep in mind that now you need to be extra sure she is well integrated locally (friends, activities, social life). Again this depends a lot on how westernized she is, if not that much, having Chinese friends is crucial if you're living in an entirely different culture. Just don't let her get all reclusive and spend all time on Chinese social media. This might sound like a joke but I've seen it happen. The culture barrier is real. I've seen Germans struggling to adapt to the American way of living and vice versa, and they're ridiculously close compared to China and any Western country.
Also I hope the way her parents treat her doesn't trigger too much of a protective instinct. It's noble you want to help her but be really sure you know the person and want to stay with her. Breaking up now and sending her back to her parents might make her life miserable, or maybe not and she'll find someone back in China, but marrying her, fucking up her relationship with her parents and then realizing it doesn't work after a year or two will quite likely make her life miserable. (But depending on how ugly it has gotten, you might actually like that at that point).
Again this is general precautionary advice, mostly assuming worst case conditions.
[+] [-] amrx431|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] coldtea|7 years ago|reply
Is that against some particular to them "lazy and useless way of life" they follow, or because their way of life doesn't match some american ideal (e.g. personal ambition and protestant-work-ethic), and thus it's "lazy and useless" because its different?
[+] [-] chinamarriage|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rqs|7 years ago|reply
I remember when my colleagues was talking about whether or not they're letting their wife to manage their money. One person brought up "I've paid ￥XXXXXX for the 彩礼[0], so I'm not allowing her to limit how I spend my salary".
The idea was, as the man of the house, you provides, so you have some "power" over other family members. And that 10,000 USD you may need to pay, is the way of showing that you can provide.
Of course, all of that above is the "modern" explanation. In the ancient time, where the gender inequality is much severe, the Bride Price is mainly served as compensation to the female's family. Because after been married, the female will technically "leave" their own family and become a part of the male's family. That's why "Getting Married" is called "出嫁" at the female side, where "出" means leave (her own family).
One more thing, except for 彩礼[0], we also have 嫁妆[1] which is something that female's family will provide (technically to their own girl, though).
If you want to dig deeper, checkout one[2] Wiki page (If you can read, the Chinese version is better). If you're living in China, better ask your local Chinese friends, I bet their information is more accurate and detailed than the Wiki page.
Hope you have a happy marriage.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_price#China
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry#China
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_marriage
[+] [-] EliRivers|7 years ago|reply
It could be a pretty big insult to her parents that would affect her relationship with them (and possibly with the rest of her family as well) for the rest of her parents' lives, and depending on how she feels about it and how the rest of her family feels about it, could affect her for the rest of her life as well.
If she's fine with it, sure, great plan. If it's going to make her miserable, perhaps not so great.
[+] [-] scandox|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] echevil|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kown223|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] 131sdfdasf|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] liftbigweights|7 years ago|reply
Then why are you planning to marry "into the family" if you have such a low opinion of them?
> Many people though feel powerless to resist and ruin themselves financially by paying it.
If $10K is going to ruin you financially, you shouldn't be marrying anyone. Not that I agree with the dowry custom, but $10K isn't that much money.
Just because you are lonely or feel like the girl you have is the only one you could get isn't reason to get married. Despite what you think now, parents/siblings/family matter. Money matters. And the longer you are married, the more important family and money becomes. Don't get married out of naivety or desperation.
[+] [-] blfr|7 years ago|reply
We have laws like this in Europe. Marriages keep happening later and TFRs keep plummeting. Why would it work any different in China.
Journalists always push their prefferred policies even when there's no proof they solve the very clearly stated problem. Subsidize kindergartens! Mandatory, paid maternal leaves! All while populations that implemented them keep collapsing.
[+] [-] liftbigweights|7 years ago|reply
"Women are marrying later and having less kids because of career concerns, lack of maternity leave and child benefits."
The countries with the best maternity leave and child benefits have the oldest marriage and lowest birth rates.
And japan, where most women give up their jobs once married to start families and where the government pays women to have children have one of the lowest birth rates in the world.
So it's not career/jobs, it's not maternity leave, it's not child benefits. Could it be societal? Media? Education?
[+] [-] bodas|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beefield|7 years ago|reply
You say it like it would be a bad thing? It's a bit weird because I have had this impression that overpopulation, not underpopulation is some kind of a problem here on our home planet...