This thread is yet another example of "you can't please all the people all of the time". This tool is a useful addition to the Linux toolbox, made freely available by Microsoft, in what would be yet another step towards embracing and supporting OSS - yet for many in this thread, that's just not good enough.
Microsoft skeptics fail to realize that most of the mid- and upper-level executives increasingly spent their entire career using, creating, and contributing to F/OSS software. Many of them were involved with early MSFT OSS efforts back in 2008-2010, and many came from deep Linux/OSS community via acquisition (Nat Friedman). Hell, the creator of GNOME, Miguel de Icaza, someone who bears the scars of the Microsoft War on OSS, now resides happily at Microsoft now.
For whatever faults MSFT has today, any sort of antipathy or guile towards OSS or Linux is not one among them. Credit where credit is due. Too many are stuck reliving past glories.
If you want an actual OSS bogeyman, you need only direct your attention to Oracle. Too many transferred their goodwill towards Sun to a company has, among other things, tried to claim Java’s APIs as their own intellectual property. That’s a company that still merits this kind of hand-wringing.
People who remember the Microsoft from the 90's and early 00's are justifiably wary of them "embracing" things they like. When we used that word it was generally followed by two others, none of which was "supporting".
And it's not like present day Microsoft is without issues. As a user as far as I'm concerned every new version of Windows is worst that the last for instance. Ads everywhere, dark patterns in the UI etc... There are reasons to be cautious when we see them setting foot in FLOSS world, there's history here and it's not like MS suddenly turned into a non-profit open-source advocacy organization.
For the people that are still against Microsoft's involvement in mainstream technology, I don't think there will ever be a time where they'll accept Microsoft.
That's not to say that their criticisms are unfounded. The main criticism today is around advertising and telemetry in Windows 10, and that's absolutely a problem for a professional device. There are many scummy practices still going on at Microsoft, and the disjointed nature between their divisions is plain to see.
I don't mind it, because I think criticism is required to keep people/companies honest, and to drive improvement, but at this point I think a lot of people in tech will always find something to complain about in regards to Microsoft.
I have problems with Microsoft, but I'm also annoyed the amount of praise some devs give Microsoft for doing anything related to open source. Some devs just fawn over every little thing Microsoft does, while also expecting Microsoft skeptics to forget most of their history just because of the past five or so years.
That's because people have weirdly unrealistic expectations when you put 'Microsoft' and 'Linux' in the same sentence. The biggest thread on this post seems to be about the prospect that Microsoft should/must/will (circle as applies) completely abandon Windows in favour of Linux, based on very little evidence, almost certainly because people don't know what to make of … well, any of it. Microsoft have been contributing to open source projects, the Linux environment, and so on for years (at least since Ballmer's left), and yet people are still coming to terms with it because it still messes with their world view — and quite rightly, too; forty-odd years of precedent in the other direction is hard to scrub from one's mind.
One of the things I miss most about working for Microsoft was all the great internal tooling. There's stuff that blows away what's available on Linux. I wouldn't trade it for apt-get any day of the week but it would be nice to see a lot of it get ported.
> One of the things I miss most about working for Microsoft was all the great internal tooling
Like what? I am not trying to be snarky here. I honestly would like your feedback. From my perspective Linux is way better than Microsoft in this regard, but maybe I am just looking at/using the wrong MS tools?
Sounds a lot like what I hear about google. The internal tooling is second to none. "If you have a problem, 5 people already solved it in a really elegant easy to use way already"
You can do the exact same with a few lines of bash and the gdb package which includes gcore, a standard utility that saves core files from running programs.
Doing things simple and fast is not the Microsoft way. The goal is to abstract everything from the user to that they become helpless and dependent on bloated interfaces.
My prediction for 2019: Microsoft announces Microsoft Linux, with many Microsoft store apps working via a compatibility layer. Office for Linux coming early 2021.
Why would they do that? Linux desktop has no penetration into the market. It would be a big investment to capture an additional 1% market share.
I can see MS porting all their server apps(MSSQL, Exchange, etc) to run on linux since Linux is dominating the server market and it would be a significant opportunity for them.
No need. Ms office is being ported to the browser. Once that’s done and it runs on chromium or Firefox, then all they have to do is test /fix it on the Linux versions of those browsers.
I played with it this summer and some of it actually works!
Having used OS X for the last 15 years, a good Microsoft Linux is probably the only thing that could conceivably get me to switch to either Microsoft or Linux. I don't think it will happen, but it's a good idea.
I don’t see Microsoft releasing a desktop Linux but I can see them releasing a Microsoft Azure Linux distro.
Linux is already massive on Azure so it makes a lot of sense from a support POV. Whether they go with their own version or just buy a distributor (Ubuntu for example) is an interesting question though.
That doesn't make any business sense for Microsoft. They might do a server fork of RHEL for their cloud offerings (as Amazon has done, very poorly, for AWS), but desktop? That'd be nuts. It would just lend an air of respectability to an OS that still has no traction on the desktop.
Why would they have any interest in Linux on the desktop? I could see them having their own distro, but I feel like that would have to be geared towards servers.
That seems unlikely to me but if I was playing fantasy CEO, I could imagine it going more like Windows grows better Linux compatibility to the point where they can push for Windows to be the primary development platform for Linux server software.
Next stage after that would be to launch Azure Windows VMs that are competitive with a "real" Linux OS for running Linux binaries but with access to Microsoft GUI management tools.
Once you depend on the GUI tools you depend on Microsoft as OS provider.
A lot of the comments in this section appear completely uneducated about the Windows architecture eg COM/RPC and seem to think that it's just some high-level recompile to get it to run on another platform. It is unrealistic.
Eg their compatability layer for their own apps Metro > Win32 is quite thin.
What about all of the other companies who have built useful Linux tools over the years? Probably quite a few more useful than this.
I'm sorry but I just don't believe that Microsoft is good for Linux. Although Linux has only a tiny fraction of the market, it's still one of the few competitors to Windows. They are competitors. MS does not try to help Linux out of the goodness of it's heart. They do it despite themselves or for PR or in an effort to try to mitigate Linux in some way. If possible they would like to eat Linux up, incorporate a version into Windows. This is not because they want to help Linux adoption. It's to try to keep developers, who would otherwise run Linux, inside of Windows.
The "new microsoft" provides a baseline operating system riddled with spyware, an update system that takes over the control of your system and pushes random content to your drive and a closed-as-ever groupware suite. Nothing has really changed except some developer allure, which seems to be working.
But I don't want to be tracked when I paid for their stuff. I want control over my system. And from a developer perspective, I'm still 1000% more productive on any nix based system where the tooling is (and has generally always been) years ahead.
There are very few areas where I need to use windows, and it's only due to vendor lock-in. Embedded development tools and professional RE tools are stronger on windows, sadly.
I like the tool but I'm aggravated to see that the sysinternals trope of printing BROUGHT TO YOU BY MARK RUSSINOVICH [ovich... ovich...] on every use persists. Pompous.
Makes me wonder if the story Wired did in 2005 about Linus Torvalds joining Microsoft and making a Linux-based version of Windows could actually happen. Link to that story is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18383909
Microsoft do cool things like this which makes me think "oh wow they really are a different company to 15 years ago"
So I go and check out a new Windows 10 laptop and the first thing I see, even on Microsoft's own Surface devices running a 'clean' Windows install, is a bunch of adverts on the start menu and sigh.
FFS Microsoft.
Why do you do so many great things then ruin your most popular brand with crap like Candy Crush and Twitter on your clean Windows install on your £3000+ premium laptop running Windows 10 Professional?
Not to mention how you conveniently always reset my settings to your defaults including reinstalling all your ad-crap every 6 months with a new Windows release. So I have to go find that damn PowerShell script again to wipe them out because a normal uninstall option is just too much to ask for isn't it!
Honestly it does my head in. Windows 10 is a solid OS but they trash it with these awful little pointless decisions. Fine stick your Candy crap in the Home edition but leave Professional alone, especially as you offer me no alternative as an independent development as I can't meet your Enterprise level requirements.
Do you see Apple loading up third-party apps into macOS? No? I wonder why.
Solving a lot of the complaints about Windows 10 isn't some super hard development problem. All they have to do is provide an actual clean version of Windows 10 with no third-party crap and cut out a few of the MS apps as well like 3D Paint (really?), 'Get Office' (again really? In your Professional version?), stop nagging me about changing from your own products, remove all 'suggestions' and tips, allow me to properly disable Cortana and OneDrive with a single option and they be actually gone for good, and maybe have an option to fully disable telemetry (not that I would as I know it is beneficial to you and I but it will shut up some noisy people online and makes everyone happy).
See not that hard is it? Also please go to a one release per year. The fact you have screwed up the last two consecutive updates shows you are pushing to do too much too quickly. Who are you in a race with anyway? Just take your time and do a nice solid update every Spring and everyone will be much happier.
[+] [-] xtrapolate|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zgramana|7 years ago|reply
For whatever faults MSFT has today, any sort of antipathy or guile towards OSS or Linux is not one among them. Credit where credit is due. Too many are stuck reliving past glories.
If you want an actual OSS bogeyman, you need only direct your attention to Oracle. Too many transferred their goodwill towards Sun to a company has, among other things, tried to claim Java’s APIs as their own intellectual property. That’s a company that still merits this kind of hand-wringing.
[+] [-] simias|7 years ago|reply
And it's not like present day Microsoft is without issues. As a user as far as I'm concerned every new version of Windows is worst that the last for instance. Ads everywhere, dark patterns in the UI etc... There are reasons to be cautious when we see them setting foot in FLOSS world, there's history here and it's not like MS suddenly turned into a non-profit open-source advocacy organization.
[+] [-] EnderMB|7 years ago|reply
That's not to say that their criticisms are unfounded. The main criticism today is around advertising and telemetry in Windows 10, and that's absolutely a problem for a professional device. There are many scummy practices still going on at Microsoft, and the disjointed nature between their divisions is plain to see.
I don't mind it, because I think criticism is required to keep people/companies honest, and to drive improvement, but at this point I think a lot of people in tech will always find something to complain about in regards to Microsoft.
[+] [-] bepotts|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] esotericn|7 years ago|reply
The company produces and ships spyware and adware.
For better or worse, that influences how all of their actions are seen.
[+] [-] zapzupnz|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] slededit|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jaxtellerSoA|7 years ago|reply
Like what? I am not trying to be snarky here. I honestly would like your feedback. From my perspective Linux is way better than Microsoft in this regard, but maybe I am just looking at/using the wrong MS tools?
[+] [-] dijit|7 years ago|reply
I wish I was working in such an ecosystem. :(
[+] [-] edoo|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fulafel|7 years ago|reply
There's an "explain vs gcore" issue on the github, which mentions among other things that they use gcore to generate the core dumps but want to move away from it: https://github.com/Microsoft/ProcDump-for-Linux/issues/13
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] techntoke|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Yuioup|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adrr|7 years ago|reply
I can see MS porting all their server apps(MSSQL, Exchange, etc) to run on linux since Linux is dominating the server market and it would be a significant opportunity for them.
[+] [-] MR4D|7 years ago|reply
I played with it this summer and some of it actually works!
[+] [-] chiph|7 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix
[+] [-] Alex3917|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] satysin|7 years ago|reply
Linux is already massive on Azure so it makes a lot of sense from a support POV. Whether they go with their own version or just buy a distributor (Ubuntu for example) is an interesting question though.
[+] [-] SwellJoe|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] snacktaster|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jrs95|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] est|7 years ago|reply
2019: Microsoft bought Ubuntu
[+] [-] Lio|7 years ago|reply
Next stage after that would be to launch Azure Windows VMs that are competitive with a "real" Linux OS for running Linux binaries but with access to Microsoft GUI management tools.
Once you depend on the GUI tools you depend on Microsoft as OS provider.
[+] [-] 72deluxe|7 years ago|reply
Eg their compatability layer for their own apps Metro > Win32 is quite thin.
[+] [-] petecox|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wwice|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xarope|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ilaksh|7 years ago|reply
I'm sorry but I just don't believe that Microsoft is good for Linux. Although Linux has only a tiny fraction of the market, it's still one of the few competitors to Windows. They are competitors. MS does not try to help Linux out of the goodness of it's heart. They do it despite themselves or for PR or in an effort to try to mitigate Linux in some way. If possible they would like to eat Linux up, incorporate a version into Windows. This is not because they want to help Linux adoption. It's to try to keep developers, who would otherwise run Linux, inside of Windows.
[+] [-] kuratkull|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thatsaguy|7 years ago|reply
But I don't want to be tracked when I paid for their stuff. I want control over my system. And from a developer perspective, I'm still 1000% more productive on any nix based system where the tooling is (and has generally always been) years ahead.
There are very few areas where I need to use windows, and it's only due to vendor lock-in. Embedded development tools and professional RE tools are stronger on windows, sadly.
[+] [-] OnlyRepliesToBS|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Wistar|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tgtweak|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stiglitz|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beavis2|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fulafel|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ezoe|7 years ago|reply
I don't know but is there no equivalent tool in the entire Linux history?
[+] [-] hurrrrr|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oropolo|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] chappar|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adzm|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] machinecoffee|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thrownaway954|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] qbaqbaqba|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] satysin|7 years ago|reply
So I go and check out a new Windows 10 laptop and the first thing I see, even on Microsoft's own Surface devices running a 'clean' Windows install, is a bunch of adverts on the start menu and sigh.
FFS Microsoft.
Why do you do so many great things then ruin your most popular brand with crap like Candy Crush and Twitter on your clean Windows install on your £3000+ premium laptop running Windows 10 Professional?
Not to mention how you conveniently always reset my settings to your defaults including reinstalling all your ad-crap every 6 months with a new Windows release. So I have to go find that damn PowerShell script again to wipe them out because a normal uninstall option is just too much to ask for isn't it!
Honestly it does my head in. Windows 10 is a solid OS but they trash it with these awful little pointless decisions. Fine stick your Candy crap in the Home edition but leave Professional alone, especially as you offer me no alternative as an independent development as I can't meet your Enterprise level requirements.
Do you see Apple loading up third-party apps into macOS? No? I wonder why.
Solving a lot of the complaints about Windows 10 isn't some super hard development problem. All they have to do is provide an actual clean version of Windows 10 with no third-party crap and cut out a few of the MS apps as well like 3D Paint (really?), 'Get Office' (again really? In your Professional version?), stop nagging me about changing from your own products, remove all 'suggestions' and tips, allow me to properly disable Cortana and OneDrive with a single option and they be actually gone for good, and maybe have an option to fully disable telemetry (not that I would as I know it is beneficial to you and I but it will shut up some noisy people online and makes everyone happy).
See not that hard is it? Also please go to a one release per year. The fact you have screwed up the last two consecutive updates shows you are pushing to do too much too quickly. Who are you in a race with anyway? Just take your time and do a nice solid update every Spring and everyone will be much happier.
[+] [-] tiktoktek|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cal97g|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]