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My dalliance with smart drugs - and the lesson I learned

221 points| caustic | 15 years ago |johannhari.com

140 comments

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[+] Construct|15 years ago|reply
Taking Modafinil will not make you smarter, but it will heavily diminish the negative effects of sleep deprivation. Remember, the primary indications for this medication are narcolepsy, sleep apnea, and excessive daytime sleepiness.

It also increases dopamine and norepinephrine activity in certain areas of the brain, similar to Adderall and Ritalin, so it will boost your concentration. It actually showed a positive effect on concentration in ADHD treatment trials, but the FDA declined to approve it for that purpose due to some concerns over a rare skin-rash disorder. Many people are under the misconception that it is not a stimulant, but it most certainly is.

As for controlled, double-blind trials, the results are not promising in non-sleep-deprived individuals. Controlled tests tend to show self-reported increases in restlessness, aggression, and anxiety, but the standardized cognitive and memory tests show very little, if any, improvement in the Modafinil groups. (See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12672167 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15738750 for more).

Finally, don't try to import Modafinil (Provigil) into the US without a prescription. It is a Schedule IV controlled substance and the legal ramifications for importing a controlled substance can be serious. If you're still eager to try it outside of a doctor's supervision, which I definitely do not recommend, then know that Adrafinil is metabolized (partly) to Modafinil within the body but is not a controlled substance. Importing it is a still a gray area, though.

Bottom line: Getting a healthy amount of sleep should be your #1 goal for cognitive improvement. If that isn't actually possible, then Modafinil could be helpful for reversing the effects of sleep deprivation. If concentration is your problem, Modafinil may help you, but you'd probably be better off pursuing proper ADHD treatment with a medication approved for ADHD.

[+] j_baker|15 years ago|reply
One important thing that's worth noting: Just because you have trouble concentrating doesn't mean you have ADHD. There are a lot of other things that could cause that.
[+] tlrobinson|15 years ago|reply
I suppose the claim of "make you smarter" depends a lot on your definition of "smart". If it includes the ability to concentrate then perhaps it does make you "smarter".
[+] radu_floricica|15 years ago|reply
I remember Adrafinil having rather nasty side effects with long term use. Something to do with liver damage.
[+] silentbicycle|15 years ago|reply
Wow! Yet another article about "smart drugs" that's actually about stimulants! I give it one hour before people start mentioning Erdos and talking about amphetamines instead. (Edit: Yup, and now I'm getting downvoted.)

Here's a much better article about actual smart drugs (http://sites.google.com/site/thinkinginanutshell/nootropics), and its HN discussion (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1211959). Sorting them in terms of risk & body load is a good idea, I think. He's not kidding when he says vaso-/desmopressin messes with homeostasis.

The racetams (piracetam, aniracetam, oxiracetam, etc.) are probably the least risky, though I've had the best long-term effects from getting enough sleep and exercise, eating reasonably well, and not spiking and crashing on caffeine all the time. If you want to try nootropics, be informed and careful, and address the obvious factors that may be messing with your concentration first. (For me it was sleep debt and too much caffeine.)

[+] hamilcarbarca|15 years ago|reply
This site is very informative, easily the best hub of nootropic information I have seen. There are links from each of the drugs to the medical studies, user surveys, etc.

http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/43394-nootropics-thread-i...

Also read: Ten months of research condensed - A total newbies guide to nootropics: http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-resea...

Choline + Piracetam + Melatonin are what I use. All are 100% legal, nonprescription, effective and safe (according to all scientific research so far).

Routine exercise has been shown repeatedly to provide tremendous gains to mental cognition. Get yourself to a baseline that includes daily cardiac exercise before jumping into the great chemical unknown.

I have tried both adrafinil (legal/unregulated in USA, metabolized in vivo to modafinil) and armodafinil. The best way I could describe them is that they provide the wakefulness provided by caffeine, without the attention deficit hyperactivity. While they are certainly both interesting and effective, cost is prohibitive.

Stay away from amphetamines. Regardless of the potential for physical dependence, you will rapidly develop a mental dependency on them. For a short while I had a prescription for ritalin and adderall (stopped taking them on my own accord)and can admit that they made me feel superhuman. However, they also provide a hellish overconfidence that can cripple you. I was not more creative and was ironically less focused upon the important aspects of my work. Information triage is far more difficult when everything in the world suddenly becomes worth of intense study.

[+] fragmede|15 years ago|reply
Is there actually a medical definition of "smart drugs"? I know some seriously smart people with a serious caffeine addiction who have an IQ of about 85 before their morning coffee.
[+] joshu|15 years ago|reply
Modafinil isn't a stimulant.
[+] swombat|15 years ago|reply
My experience was similar. I wouldn't say it kills all your creativity, but it makes it slightly more unnatural to practice lateral thinking. That said, I have come up with some great ideas while on Modafinil.

My best tips if you're going to use this drug is:

1) Take a very small dose. 50mg (taken around 8 or 9) is usually more than enough to get me through the day. Occasionally I used to take a 25mg bump in the early afternoon which carried over the hyper feeling into the early evening.

2) Try it out on a day when you're by yourself first, so you understand how it changes your perception of the world, because it does alter your perception. You might be quicker to make decisions or react to things, and you need to understand this and compensate for it before you interact with other people. If you can't be alone, at least tell your partner about it so they understand that you might behave slightly differently over that period (possibly more aggressively...).

3) The best way to make the most of it, for me, has been to prepare a solid list of big items that I want to get through before I take it, so I don't have to think about what to do next. Modafinil allows you to focus really well on whatever it is you decide to do, but it really doesn't help your executive ability (i.e. deciding what to do). I did once find myself having a really solid, focused, deep, 6-hour session of World of Warcraft. Don't give yourself too much opportunity to wander, or you'll find yourself doing anything that comes to your mind (whether that's reading a book, cleaning the kitchen, reorganising your office, or actually doing some productive work). Best to decide ahead of time so you don't fall into that trap.

[+] CoffeeDregs|15 years ago|reply
1) Totally agree. 100 mg made me nutty, aggressive; 50 mg still made me a bit agressive; 25mg is just right and makes me quite alert all day without making me an aggressive drone.

2) Totally agree. See #1, but I definitely look back at some interactions-while-on-100mg (super judgmental, aggressive) and think that I would have handled them better if not on modafinil. Interactions with my wife/kids can suffer.

3) Definitely. Taking modafinil without a plan leads to reading every article on Hacker News.

Generally, I consider modafinil to be a tool. As when using a hammer, I don't look to accomplish tasks that don't benefit from the tool.

[+] awakeasleep|15 years ago|reply
I totally agree with the small dose tip. Experiments among my friends and family lead me to recommend 25-50 mg as a sweet spot between effectivity and side effects. 200mg is an overdose obscured by modafinil's relatively benign effect profile and people's expectation of ill effects from drug use.
[+] mindcreek|15 years ago|reply
I'm dyslexic, I cannot write with a pen and even though my discrete math is good I struggled throughout my school life and computer science degree with calculus and differentials etc.

In my second year in university one of my teachers suggested to me I might be dyslexic and later I found a professor in an university hospital who deals with ADD and dyslexia in younger patients. She suggested to me Ritalin and then concerta which I didn't want to use then, after school when I really needed the 6-7 hour coding marathons for the projects I'm working on I strated using concerta and ritalin here is my experience.

1. My concentration is longer and more productive, the urge to continuously get up and do something else is gone. 2. As far as 3 years go I had no noticeable side effects, I asked my doctor about it and he told me methylfenidaat hydroclorine which is the active ingredient in both drugs is considered to safe and no long term effect are observed to date(about 20 years or so) 3. The drugs do not cause addiction because I had periods without the drugs one 6 months one three months just to prove myself I can do without them so far both were uneventful Except I went back to my old self. 4. My IQ or creativity seems unaffected by the drug I'm always the same. 5. I was forgetting little things my keys wallet phone back then after the drugs I don't. 6. If I forget to take the drug my wife or colleagues ask me If I forgot to take my pills today, so the difference is noticeable from the outside. 7. Both drugs are strictly controlled substances in Turkey so I have to struggle with bureaucracy every month for refills, renewals.

Thanks for reading If you have any question I'll try to check the comments later.

[+] bkj123|15 years ago|reply
Do you mind telling what dosages you were taking? Thank you.
[+] jakerocheleau|15 years ago|reply
I can't speak for Provigil but I've used both Focalin (dexmethylphenidate) and Adderall (basically amphetamines) to help me study/work on tough projects and have had phenomenal results. I don't notice any "lack" in my creativity and honestly I find myself pumping out higher-quality work when I can focus in and get "in the zone". My writing improves, programming skills shoot through the fucking roof, and I find I can work from many different perspectives on any given problem.

Always in moderation of course. I couldn't imagine speeding every work day just to finish projects

[+] corin_|15 years ago|reply
Can anyone recomend somewhere to get hold of a (preferably small) amount of Provigil? (Shipping to UK) Would like to try it myself.

edit: Found http://www.unitedpharmacies.co.uk/product.php?productid=973&... and placed a small order with a throwaway credit card, will see if that arrives in the next 7-14 days as promised. Would still like any recomendations, though.

[+] swombat|15 years ago|reply
I've ordered a number of times from: http://www.qhi.co.uk/intro.asp

They have not defrauded the cards I used and the stuff they delivered was, as far as I could tell, real (both from the packaging and from the effects).

[+] philh|15 years ago|reply
From http://sites.google.com/site/thinkinginanutshell/nootropics : "Beware of firms that advertise prices significantly lower than the above, because you will probably not get the real thing. The author very nearly got ripped off by a firm that was advertising 100x200mg packages for $90. These will come from countries that manufacture it generically despite the patent."

If you do try these, I would be interested in hearing how they compare to the Alertec.

[+] ashleyw|15 years ago|reply
Just ordered 20x Modafinil from them, also shipping to the UK. Quite anxious about ordering drugs from a foreign company, but from some quick research, it would seem UnitedPharmacies are quite reputable. I'll probably break the tablet in halve anyway and start with 50mg, just to be on the safe(r) side.
[+] phowat|15 years ago|reply
I took ritalin for about a month to be able to play longer stretches of online poker. During the time I thought I was doing great but after reviewing my sessions later I discovered I was making a bunch of silly mistakes I don't think I would have done otherwise. And it was usually when I was already deep into the session, when I would otherwise have already stopped playing. After a month I found out that the amount of extra money was marginally paying for the cost of the drugs and stopped (yes, I played really small stakes). I know it's just anecdotal evidence and even my own sample size ( just one month ) is small but I think it's worth sharing.
[+] dholowiski|15 years ago|reply
Side effects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Side_effects)

In 2007, the FDA ordered Cephalon to modify the Provigil leaflet in bold-face print of several serious and potentially fatal conditions attributed to modafinil use, including TEN, DRESS syndrome, and Stevens-Johnson Syndrome (SJS). The long term safety and effectiveness of modafinil has not been determined.

Webmd:http://bit.ly/9dSAg6 Headache, nausea, nervousness, anxiety, dizziness, and difficulty sleeping may occur. If any of these effects persist or worsen, notify your doctor or pharmacist promptly.

Tell your doctor immediately if any of these rare but serious side effects occur: mental/mood changes (e.g., agitation, confusion, depression, abnormal thoughts, hallucinations). Seek immediate medical attention if any of these rare but very serious side effects occur: chest pain, fast/pounding/irregular heartbeat, signs of infection (e.g., fever, persistent sore throat).

[+] AngryParsley|15 years ago|reply
6 cases over a decade. That's pretty safe in my book. You also left out the part about acute toxicity. For acute doses, Modafinil is safer than caffeine.

The FDA is ridiculously risk-averse when it comes to approving drugs. For example, they recently rejected lorcaserin and qnexa, two anti-obesity drugs, over safety concerns. They also got sibutramine withdrawn from the US market. Even if these drugs have risks, the risks of obesity are likely much higher.

A lot of people are going to die from obesity that would have been saved if these drugs were approved. Of course, the media reports when approved drugs cause harm, not when rejected drugs don't save lives.

[+] araneae|15 years ago|reply
Hey, do you want to know what the side effects of birth control pills are?

Nausea, loss of sexual function, mood swings, increased risk of stroke, pulmonary embolism, and heart attack.

Give me some Provigil any day.

[+] Gatsky|15 years ago|reply
Those abbreviated fatal conditions are severe systemic drug reactions involving skin. They are mostly idiosyncratic - in other words, not really related to the total dose and not more likely with long term use. Some people are unlucky and get these reactions, presumably due to genetic/immunological factors. HIV infection and SLE are known to increase the risk of TEN and SJS.

These reactions are rare, which makes it difficult to precisely quantify the risk. Other drugs which are known to cause these reactions are NSAIDs like ibuprofen, which you can buy from a supermarket, and antibiotics like amoxycillin or bactrim, which doctors prescribe without being particularly concerned about the risk of potentially fatal skin reactions.

[+] jedwhite|15 years ago|reply
Funnily enough I get a similar result from a good night's sleep, not eating crap, and going for a ride on my bike. It also helps weight loss. :)
[+] binarymax|15 years ago|reply
How do these drugs effect memory? If you can tear through books while on Provigil, is what you learned well retained when your brain reverts to its "scrappier state"?
[+] dawson|15 years ago|reply
My experience with Concerta (albeit a different drug), is not the same. I have seen a massive increase in my ability to concentrate and complete tasks, as well as be creative (in relation to my start up and business development). Though, creativity is relative to any one person and context.
[+] nickpinkston|15 years ago|reply
I resisted for many years, but I recently got a script for Adderall, and it's made me a better thinker and doer. I haven't experienced the lack of creativity that some report - on the contrary actually. I've also found that I sleep better - which is actually common my doctor says.

I've been taking 15mg morning and after-lunch, but not on weekends so as to reduce my dependency and tolerance to it. This has worked well so far.

I'm not sure if perhaps people who have the gene coding for reduced dopamine re-uptake (i.e. a big predictor of ADD diagnoses - like myself) are the ones who get the strongest benefits and the reports of bad reactions could possibly be from those without this genotype?

[+] proexploit|15 years ago|reply
I'm not going to speak out for or against the use of smart drugs, but please note that although Adrafinil does metabolize to Modafinil and thus appears to be a legal (depending on your location) alternative, it can damage your liver and cause stomach pain.
[+] mr_luc|15 years ago|reply
This article could not have been written to tempt me any more effectively.

'It doesn't cause hyperfocused procrastination, like Adderal or Dexedrine. It's 'deep concentration.' And you can go off it whenever you want! It's a temporary smart pill with no withdrawal symptoms!'

D'oh. "Get behind me, Satan!"

[+] zaidf|15 years ago|reply
I would say, if anything, I've had the opposite experience with adderall. I've had some crazy creative bursts. I am probably the exception because almost everyone I talk with has the opposite experience.
[+] chapel|15 years ago|reply
This seems to pop up a lot.

After reading about this the first time I researched for about a month before purchasing any. My general experience with them is that they work, they keep you up longer than you would normally be able to, they keep you alert, you don't feel like you are hopped up either.

The effect only lasts so long though, after being up for over 24 hours, your body gets tired, and the effectiveness of the drug gets worse. I didn't really go past 36 hours, but if I wanted to I could have. Note that I didn't purposely try and stay up all those times, I work graveyard shifts and ended up having important things come up when I needed to sleep and I was forced to stay up.

Modafinil really did help me when I was tired, but as far as being a 'smart drug' it wasn't exactly mind blowing. It did make it easier to focus, but I could just as easily focus on a TV show, or a website, versus a piece of code I wanted to finish. So if you need to stay up, study, or get something done and you are determined to do it, this is great. If you want something to augment your day to day life and make you 'smarter' this really isn't for you.

Though there are more things popping up saying that it might have worse long term side effects than previously thought, I didn't really have any that I know of, but if I get brain cancer in a year I guess I know why. :)

[+] farnsworth|15 years ago|reply
And may I ask where you purchased it?
[+] csomar|15 years ago|reply
Isn't their a natural counterpart? Like a mind hack or something similar. I found myself ,in the last week, deeply concentrating and working on something that is very boring and I usually tend to lose concentration on it very quickly. I was surprised how the hours passed without complaints.

May be I ate something special that made that day goes like that, but I felt like I fall into that deep concentration state of mind. My creative abilities weren't touched, though.

[+] digitailor|15 years ago|reply
I have a legal prescription for 200 mg Provigil.

Many of the comments here have factual inaccuracies.

- Provigil is Schedule IV, which is not highly restricted, and is prescribed on regular scrip paper, not DEA paper.

- Some STATES restrict its dispersal more stringently, like New York, even with a scrip. Others do not, like California.

- Provigil has NOT been classed a stimulant. Its action is currently described as "unknown."

This information comes from my doctor and my doctor's PDR.

EDIT: for grammar error, and mistake about its schedule level.