This is news primarily because putting it on Facebook made it visible to First World residents and made them feel complicit in the transaction. Otherwise, we mostly don't really care that there are child brides being auctioned off in Third World countries (etc). "Not Our Problem."
And the outrage is problematic for a variety of reasons. Historically in the US it was common for girls to get married at age 14 to 16. Deciding that age 18 is the age of legal adult consent etc is somewhat arbitrary.
That doesn't mean I approve of auctioning off young girls for marriage, but you need to look at a variety of factors and judge this in context. The practice of a bride price does two things: It compensates the parents for providing a valuable wife who will most likely never have wealth and power in her own name because that primarily goes through men in most countries the world over and the problem is more severe in less developed countries. It also is intended to insure that her husband has the capacity to provide for her.
What you see in less developed countries is less education overall and less opportunity overall and less use of effective birth control overall. So you wind up with inherent issues where getting laid at all is highly likely to lead to pregnancy and a lot of cultural practices grow out of that reality.
I'm a former full-time wife and mom. I was also one of the top three students of my graduating high school, a National Merit Scholarship winner, etc. A friend of the family once told me "Everyone expected you to be a millionaire by the age of 30. What the hell happened?" And I pointed to my kids and said "That happened." basically.
So I've spent a lot of years reading up on women's issues and history and so forth, trying to figure out why in the hell I never got the two career couple lifestyle that I expected to have and that I felt was my due in life. And it's led me to think long and hard on what I have come to think of as "human sexual morality" and the myriad things that grow out of trying to resolve the issues rooted in "people hunger for sex and then that can lead to babies, disease, social drama, etc."
How do you resolve those humanely and in a manner that treats all parties well?
Bride Price is one way some cultures try to make sure that women -- who will not have careers of their own and power of their own -- are properly cared for by upstanding citizens who are productive and take care of their family because they are good men.
It can easily go weird and bad places, but selling children into slavery isn't actually the goal of having a bride price.
I would love to see a better world. I seriously doubt we get there by jumping to ugly conclusions about other cultures and assuming the absolute worst and refusing to take context into account.
I don’t think it’s about feeling complicit. It’s about Facebook being actually complicit.
Your age of consent discussion is way off base. Most US states put the age of consent below 18 and getting married at 16 is legal all over the place. The outrage isn’t about a 16-year-old girl getting married, it’s about her being sold.
As a counterpoint, in Sudan it goes to here - https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/26/africa/sudan-death-senten... - and people shouting judgmentally about that to Sudan has helped save that girl's life. Perhaps outrage over this might help this other girl before she ends up stabbing her husband. Might even be good for the husband.
> Bride Price is one way some cultures try to make sure that women -- who will not have careers of their own and power of their own -- are properly cared for by upstanding citizens who are productive and take care of their family because they are good men.
It most certainly does not ensure anything like that. It ensures that they are owned by men with money while having little to zero ability defend themselves, escape or make decisions about their own lives. It ensures that buyer will consider himself entitled to demand from her while the opposite will be seen as transgression - after all he paid money for her.
There is not guarantee that buyer is upstanding citizen or good man. Men with money beat their wifes, abuse their wifes and so on and so fort.
> How do you resolve those humanely and in a manner that treats all parties well?
You don't and this arrangement is not even trying. It is about power and control. Those who have more power end up having their way over those with little power - just like with any other relationship.
> Historically in the US it was common for girls to get married at age 14 to 16.
A misleading statement. It is common in the US for people to die in a car crash, but it is still only a small percentage of people. The median marriage age was much higher, then and now.
A lot of women trade the lives of their children for that career they feel is their "due" in life. Do you look at your children and wish you'd sacrificed them for wealth, like those other women have?
Not to sound insensitive, but I think some of the worlds problems are caused by the fact that it's easier for people to get emotional about a specific incident they can put a face on than a systematic problems.
While I totally agree, it also seems to me that this sort of thinking is almost always used as an excuse not to care about anything, rather than a call to care more about the bigger stuff too.
This reaction is well understood by the media. When they want to humanize an issue they will go to great lengths to dig and find relatable and shocking ways to tell a story. That they do not is more telling about the interests of the people that fund them, all billionaires that profit from mass suffering and the exploitation of labor and vulnerable populations.
When discussing a teenage girl being auctioned off on facebook, that does kind of come across as just a wee bit insensitive and prefacing it with 'not to sound insensitive' doesn't in fact assuage that in any measurable way.
Single incidents sparking outrage are a force in society that we are not going to get rid of any time soon. The last thing we need is people outraged over an incident of slavery to be told to be apathetic, as the people who help promote it, which now apparently includes facebook, aren't going to suddenly be all reasonable if everyone shouts less about single incidents. While the solutions that are required may be structural, everything ever complained about is an incident.
Isn't this evolution at play? Getting emotional over every large scale systemic issue we encounter would overwhelm us, so the larger the numbers the more we dehumanize?
Facebook doesn't want this kind of stuff on their platform. But, it can be very hard for them to stop it.
What language were the postings in? The article screenshots one English post, but possibly many of the others were in some local language. Facebook might not employ anyone with language skills in that language. Automated translation software often performs poorly with less common languages, if it is available at all. Even if the postings are all in some major language, they may have been using local slang or jargon, and unless Facebook has staff in or from that country, they may lack the cultural context to understand properly what is going on. Even if someone from that country reports it, it could be very difficult for Facebook's staff to fairly judge the report if they lack the necessary cultural and language skills to interpret it.
I realize this is horrific for many living in the Western World, but I think it's important to keep it in perspective.
Does anyone really think it wouldn't have happened without Facebook? That it hasn't been happening for thousands of years?
It's not like the invention of Facebook created this.
This is also the epitome of "think of the Children". I realize that in our culture auctioning off children is not acceptable, but who's to say we know what's right? maybe we're OK auctioning off rabbits or religious artifacts but another culture would find that horrific. So should we just say that whatever we deem OK is fine?
I come from a country where child marriages are fairly common, despite being illegal — but the law isn't enforced.
The marriages aren't arranged on social media yet, but I don't see why in a few years with easier access to the internet, and with younger people arranging marriages, more of these won't be done.
I don't think Facebook is to blame for this, and I do think it's unfair that Facebook is being asked to solve a problem governments haven't been able to for decades — but they're in a better position than anyone was.
>but who's to say we know what's right?
However, I gotta disagree with you there. Some things we can all agree are wrong. It's a short list and it includes things like slavery, forced prostition, rape, murder, etc. But that list definitely includes selling children to the highest bidder.
> I realize that in our culture auctioning off children is not acceptable, but who's to say we know what's right? maybe we're OK auctioning off rabbits or religious artifacts but another culture would find that horrific.
Generally we consider auctioning off people to be different enough to classify it as human trafficking, which is seperate from selling animals or objects.
Almost tautologically, without Facebook this "auction" would have had to be done using an inferior option.
Maybe it would still have happened. But in at least some cases, that inferior platform will be worse enough for the crime not to occur. Even if it's just because EBay's design is stuck in the 90s.
In any case, the "somebody else would have done it" argument didn't work in Nuremberg, and is generally recognised as a terrible conflation of morality with practicability.
Obligatory disclaimer: Facebook has massive overreach, human trafficking is evil, etc...
I love to hate on Facebook, but given the near ubiquity of Facebook, and the internet, is this Facebook's fault? Isn't this just a consequence of ubiquitous technology?
There were so many different human technologies and inventions used in this tragedy, why lay the blame on Facebook, if we rewrote the headline, which of the following technologies are also to blame:
A teenage girl in South Sudan was auctioned off using the World Wide Web
A teenage girl in South Sudan was auctioned off using the Internet
A teenage girl in South Sudan was auctioned off using DNS & TCP/IP
A teenage girl in South Sudan was auctioned off using mobile phones
A teenage girl in South Sudan was auctioned off using written and spoken human languages
A teenage girl in South Sudan was auctioned off using money and the abstract concept of trade
[+] [-] DoreenMichele|7 years ago|reply
This is news primarily because putting it on Facebook made it visible to First World residents and made them feel complicit in the transaction. Otherwise, we mostly don't really care that there are child brides being auctioned off in Third World countries (etc). "Not Our Problem."
And the outrage is problematic for a variety of reasons. Historically in the US it was common for girls to get married at age 14 to 16. Deciding that age 18 is the age of legal adult consent etc is somewhat arbitrary.
That doesn't mean I approve of auctioning off young girls for marriage, but you need to look at a variety of factors and judge this in context. The practice of a bride price does two things: It compensates the parents for providing a valuable wife who will most likely never have wealth and power in her own name because that primarily goes through men in most countries the world over and the problem is more severe in less developed countries. It also is intended to insure that her husband has the capacity to provide for her.
What you see in less developed countries is less education overall and less opportunity overall and less use of effective birth control overall. So you wind up with inherent issues where getting laid at all is highly likely to lead to pregnancy and a lot of cultural practices grow out of that reality.
I'm a former full-time wife and mom. I was also one of the top three students of my graduating high school, a National Merit Scholarship winner, etc. A friend of the family once told me "Everyone expected you to be a millionaire by the age of 30. What the hell happened?" And I pointed to my kids and said "That happened." basically.
So I've spent a lot of years reading up on women's issues and history and so forth, trying to figure out why in the hell I never got the two career couple lifestyle that I expected to have and that I felt was my due in life. And it's led me to think long and hard on what I have come to think of as "human sexual morality" and the myriad things that grow out of trying to resolve the issues rooted in "people hunger for sex and then that can lead to babies, disease, social drama, etc."
How do you resolve those humanely and in a manner that treats all parties well?
Bride Price is one way some cultures try to make sure that women -- who will not have careers of their own and power of their own -- are properly cared for by upstanding citizens who are productive and take care of their family because they are good men.
It can easily go weird and bad places, but selling children into slavery isn't actually the goal of having a bride price.
I would love to see a better world. I seriously doubt we get there by jumping to ugly conclusions about other cultures and assuming the absolute worst and refusing to take context into account.
[+] [-] mikeash|7 years ago|reply
Your age of consent discussion is way off base. Most US states put the age of consent below 18 and getting married at 16 is legal all over the place. The outrage isn’t about a 16-year-old girl getting married, it’s about her being sold.
[+] [-] starbeast|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] watwut|7 years ago|reply
It most certainly does not ensure anything like that. It ensures that they are owned by men with money while having little to zero ability defend themselves, escape or make decisions about their own lives. It ensures that buyer will consider himself entitled to demand from her while the opposite will be seen as transgression - after all he paid money for her.
There is not guarantee that buyer is upstanding citizen or good man. Men with money beat their wifes, abuse their wifes and so on and so fort.
> How do you resolve those humanely and in a manner that treats all parties well?
You don't and this arrangement is not even trying. It is about power and control. Those who have more power end up having their way over those with little power - just like with any other relationship.
[+] [-] sneak|7 years ago|reply
A misleading statement. It is common in the US for people to die in a car crash, but it is still only a small percentage of people. The median marriage age was much higher, then and now.
[+] [-] nixarian|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alexandercrohde|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikeash|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] reasonablemann|7 years ago|reply
"The statistics of large-scale killing don't convey emotion"
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/11/09/6661503...
[+] [-] fgbfyhvfghu|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] starbeast|7 years ago|reply
Single incidents sparking outrage are a force in society that we are not going to get rid of any time soon. The last thing we need is people outraged over an incident of slavery to be told to be apathetic, as the people who help promote it, which now apparently includes facebook, aren't going to suddenly be all reasonable if everyone shouts less about single incidents. While the solutions that are required may be structural, everything ever complained about is an incident.
[+] [-] ddingus|7 years ago|reply
Nail the fuckers somehow. That is not OK.
[+] [-] Delmania|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skissane|7 years ago|reply
What language were the postings in? The article screenshots one English post, but possibly many of the others were in some local language. Facebook might not employ anyone with language skills in that language. Automated translation software often performs poorly with less common languages, if it is available at all. Even if the postings are all in some major language, they may have been using local slang or jargon, and unless Facebook has staff in or from that country, they may lack the cultural context to understand properly what is going on. Even if someone from that country reports it, it could be very difficult for Facebook's staff to fairly judge the report if they lack the necessary cultural and language skills to interpret it.
[+] [-] sorokod|7 years ago|reply
So, in other words, this is the price of doing business?
[+] [-] grecy|7 years ago|reply
Does anyone really think it wouldn't have happened without Facebook? That it hasn't been happening for thousands of years?
It's not like the invention of Facebook created this.
This is also the epitome of "think of the Children". I realize that in our culture auctioning off children is not acceptable, but who's to say we know what's right? maybe we're OK auctioning off rabbits or religious artifacts but another culture would find that horrific. So should we just say that whatever we deem OK is fine?
[+] [-] amingilani|7 years ago|reply
The marriages aren't arranged on social media yet, but I don't see why in a few years with easier access to the internet, and with younger people arranging marriages, more of these won't be done.
I don't think Facebook is to blame for this, and I do think it's unfair that Facebook is being asked to solve a problem governments haven't been able to for decades — but they're in a better position than anyone was.
>but who's to say we know what's right?
However, I gotta disagree with you there. Some things we can all agree are wrong. It's a short list and it includes things like slavery, forced prostition, rape, murder, etc. But that list definitely includes selling children to the highest bidder.
[+] [-] saagarjha|7 years ago|reply
Generally we consider auctioning off people to be different enough to classify it as human trafficking, which is seperate from selling animals or objects.
[+] [-] analognoise|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matt4077|7 years ago|reply
Maybe it would still have happened. But in at least some cases, that inferior platform will be worse enough for the crime not to occur. Even if it's just because EBay's design is stuck in the 90s.
In any case, the "somebody else would have done it" argument didn't work in Nuremberg, and is generally recognised as a terrible conflation of morality with practicability.
[+] [-] oh_sigh|7 years ago|reply
Yes, pretty much. What other option is there? Has any culture not done exactly this?
[+] [-] darpa_escapee|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NedIsakoff|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] legostormtroopr|7 years ago|reply
I love to hate on Facebook, but given the near ubiquity of Facebook, and the internet, is this Facebook's fault? Isn't this just a consequence of ubiquitous technology?
There were so many different human technologies and inventions used in this tragedy, why lay the blame on Facebook, if we rewrote the headline, which of the following technologies are also to blame:
A teenage girl in South Sudan was auctioned off using the World Wide Web
A teenage girl in South Sudan was auctioned off using the Internet
A teenage girl in South Sudan was auctioned off using DNS & TCP/IP
A teenage girl in South Sudan was auctioned off using mobile phones
A teenage girl in South Sudan was auctioned off using written and spoken human languages
A teenage girl in South Sudan was auctioned off using money and the abstract concept of trade
[+] [-] AvocadoPanic|7 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lostgame|7 years ago|reply
Please, everyone, respect that this is a very serious issue that isn't to be used as fodder for humour.
It's one thing to make a jab at Zuck or Facebook - it's another thing entirely to try to make any aspect of this situation funny.
Thank you.
[+] [-] trophycase|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] iplusplus|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] nixarian|7 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] lostgame|7 years ago|reply
Where's the 'flag' button for comments when you need it?